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Terri Schiavo shouldn't be starved....

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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 08:59 PM
Original message
Terri Schiavo shouldn't be starved....
she should be euthanized, and if we lived in a humane society, that's what we'd do. But alas, legally, that is not an option. Removal of the feeding tube is the only option available under the law.

If Terri were on a ventilator, this wouldn't even be a famous case. Every day people are removed from ventilators, but nobody accuses their loved ones of "suffocating" them.

I think people are very uncomfortable with the idea of starving her. They imagine their own feelings of hunger and project them onto her. But... Terri will not feel deprived. Terri will not suffer. She has no brain matter with which to feel or interpret those sensations. But her family WILL suffer by having to witness a slow, drawn-out bodily death.

I think this whole debate seriously skirts the REAL issue, which is that we need to allow people the same rights and dignity we give our cats and dogs.

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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well-written post.
I think people are projecting their feelings about food and hunger (and we humans have VERY strong feelings on those subjects!) onto Terri. And in some cases, they might be projecting their negative feelings about men onto this case, too (Michael, the husband).

But you are right, with no cerebral cortex, she cannot perceive anything. Thus she will not perceive "starvation" or "dehydration." There are no centers of consciousness left in her head. None.

If there is no chance of recovery (and there isn't) and she has no consciousness, no personality, no emotion, no senses, no nothing other than primitive reflexes, what is the point of continuing to feed her?

What is her life? Is she being kept around to make her parents feel better?
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. did you see the post I started for you?
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Aw, thanks! I responded on that thread.
I have to say, I'm very tired now. LOL.

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yup. n/t
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. Our "godly" former Attorney General
Edited on Sat Mar-12-05 09:06 PM by Sandpiper
John Ashcroft, saw to it that no federally controlled substances could be employed by competent physicians to hasten the end of life for those who suffered.

Remember, if you're a vegetable, or terminally ill and in miserable pain, it's the will of Jeebus.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. I was thinking the same thing. Thank you for expressing that
so perfectly.
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KT2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. Well put!
it has been hard to put this succinctly but you just did - thanks.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. She doesn't know she's being starved, though.
:shrug:
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I think that's what Dookus is saying.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. The point is .....that WE KNOW.
:shrug:
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. well
are you saying that we should never let anybody be taken off life-support, under any circumstances, because you believe there's a possibility that people with no cerebral cortex can feel pain?

If Terri is given morphine to assuage your unfounded fears, would you feel better?
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I thought I made that clear in my post
:shrug:
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
10. Well said.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
12. Great Thread
I agree. We are much more humane to our animals in assisting them to die when it is their time. Can you imagine us keeping an animal alive by a feeding tube like we are doing to Terri?

We would be called cruel, mentally ill, and morbid. Terri should be allowed to die with peace and dignity.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. In the best-case scenario, she should be in hospice care as the
Edited on Sat Mar-12-05 09:43 PM by Heddi
feeding tube is withdrawn.

Even though she cannot feel pain (in the sense that all sensation--pain AND pleasure, is impossible for her), hospice services not only provide end-of-life services to the patient, but to the family as well.

Hospice nurses are among the most caring, compassionate, and emotionally super-humans I've ever witnessed.

Last quarter, in school, we had to visit a hospice service and meet with the nurses. They spoke in length about the power of denial---most often, we associate denial with an emotion the patient experiences, but it's only been recently that we've realized just how powerful it is (as is the whole stages-of-greiving) on the survivors, relatives, friends, and loved ones of the patient.

Many times, patients fear death not because of their own lack of acceptance of their condition, but because they know their loved-ones haven't come to accept the finality of the disease or disease process of their loved one. THe patient fears that they will cause MORE pain to the family if they were to die, so much so that they endure greater pain and suffering themselves in the hopes of reducing the suffering that their loved-ones are going through. THey feel that if THEY can be 'strong' in the face of adversity, it will give family members a reason to be strong.

One of the nurses talked about a difficult situation she found herself in---she was taking care of a woman with end-stage alzheimers. Her brain function was shutting down more and more on a daily basis to the point that not only had she long forgotten the names of friends and family, but she had forgotten how to talk, how to move, how to swallow. Only basal, low-brain functions like respiratory and cardiovascular functions were taking place, and even then, at a rate that would soon be incompatable with life. Her brain, essentially, had forgotten what its entire function was.

The hospice nurse, at the instruction of the physician, was to start giving increased doses of Morphine Sulphate (MS04) to quell whatever pain this patient was going through. Although she couldn't voluntarily move, she still had occasional muscle spazms that injured herself and another family member. THey were completely random and unintentional, but they felt that allowing her to be in a state where she could injure herself or others to be cruel and unncessary.

But the daughter, who was the 'matriarch' of the family at that point, strongly objected to her mother receiving MS04. Why? She didn't want her mother to be a drug addict. She didn't want her mother to become addicted to the Morphine.

THe nurse explained to her that her mother would probably die within a matter of weeks, at the longest, and that the morphine was to relieve any pain she may be experiencing on a basic, physiological level.

THe daughter then accused the nurses of trying to 'kill' her mother by giving her large doses of morphine--of course, the mother had been on morphine for a number of months (perhaps even a year or more) to combat terminal pain associated with her condition and others, and that while a 'normal' person certainly would OD if given that amount of morphine, the mother had built up a tolerance and was in no danger of OD'ing from the drugs, or from being addicted to the drugs.

THe daughter would not relent, and refused to allow her mother to receive the Morphine as ordered by the physician.

The Hospice nurse said the saddest thing was a few days later---the daughter called the nurse, hysterical---her mother was obviously beginning to die---and, as the body often does, was fighting the process. "Give her something to knock her out!" the daughter demanded. The nurse arrived at the house a short time later and started the morphine drip again as the daughter wished. However, because the morphine had been halted a few days earlier, they couldn't give her the large amounts that they had been giving her, nor the larger bolus that they had intended to give her days earlier. Sadly, the mother died, in obvious distress, without the aid of an opiod analgesic as the physican requested.

Knowing her death was imminent, the Dr's and nurses were acting in the patient's best intentions---to give her a large enough dose of morphine over the short remaining course of her life, so that when death's time did come, she would go peacefully and she would feel no pain and her body would not resist the efforts of the heart to stop pumping, or the lungs from not breathing.

The daughter tried to sue the Dr, the Nurse, and Hospice for forcing her mother to endure a painful death. She lost her case, as she had been the one to sign the release form stating that she refused for her mother to get the increased doseage of morphine days earlier.

It's a sad case all around. I'm sure this daughter loved her mother, or else she wouldn't have had hospice there for all those years. But denial is a VERY powerful emotion. Even seeing the gradual, then rapid decline of her mother due to Alzheimers and associated diseases, she could not accept the fact that her mother was dying, and there was nothing in the world that could save her from that fate. She realized the reality and finality of the situation at a time when it was too late to do anything to curb her mother's suffering.

----

I feel empathy for Terri's parents. They are faced with the reality of a daughter who is not, and will never be again the girl that they loved so much. Unfortunately, their greif and anguish was hijacked by people who have ulterior motives, who aren't interested in the parent's emotional investment, but rather the policital statements that can be made about this woman's life and death.

They, like so many others, have seized upon people in their most vunerable state. They realize that Terri's parents aren't in a state where rational thought and logical processes run high. They have manipulated and perverted their greif for their daughter and turned it into a political circus--this isn't about TERRI, and this isn't about HER right to live or die. This is about a POLITICAL ISSUE---the right to life in ALL instances, even if not compatable with life. They could give two shits about her parents or their emotional state, and I have no doubt that if they were to come out tomorrow and say "You know, we've come to realize that she should be allowed to die with dignity" they would drop all relations with them (the family), publically question THEIR love for their daughter, publically question THEIR devotion to their daughter, just as they've done with her husband.

--
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-05 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Thanks Heddi...
that's a horrible story.

I presume there WILL be hospice care for Terri when the feeding tube is removed.
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NV Whino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-05 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
15. You are absolutely right, Dookus
I've done all a can do at this point in our history to take care of that for myself and my mother.

In Terri's case the government (AKA Jeb Bush) got involved and it's gone downhill ever since.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-05 03:18 AM
Response to Original message
18. Thank you for your post
I think that you've gotten to the heart of the matter. People do think she'll feel the pain, they don't understand that she won't.
And I agree the real issue is that pulling the feeding tube is the only option, and that's the real shame to this whole matter.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-05 03:34 AM
Response to Original message
19. Damn straight! n/t
:kick:
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-05 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
20. I have heard that starving is not a painful way to die
I have also fasted for over 24 hours, and after a while you do not notice it so much, of course, I drank alot of water too. Scott Nearing starved himself to death at age 100. He figured that was long enough to live. I think you are imagining that it is more painful than it really is. I cannot find any medical information from google to back up this assertion, most of the sites are rightly focused on preventing starvation, but one did mention that starving animals become listless - they do not writhe around in agony. My dad's aunt did not want to eat when she was in her mid 80s, but the nursing home made her. She lived another seven miserable years when she might have had a peaceful, painless death - if she had been allowed to make her own choices. Pisses me off that I did not save her from that.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. No
I'm not imagining it will be painful for her. Others are. I agree with you that she will not suffer.
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barackmyworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. especially if you can not sense hunger or thirst
She does not have enough brain activity to sense hunger or thirst. She would have no idea.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
23. But, but some seem to think she'll grow a new brain.
After all, that's the only hope some have. :evilgrin:
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-05 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. Dookus, have you noticed this one yet?
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-05 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Thanks for pointing me to it....
horrifying, isn't it?
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-05 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. News of the day's events:
Family and religious groups rally for brain-damaged woman
By SAMANTHA GROSS
The Associated Press

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - Women knelt in prayer and raised their hands to the sky during a rally Sunday set up to urge state legislators and other officials to prevent Friday's court-ordered removal of the feeding tube keeping Terri Schiavo alive.

The brain-damaged woman's parents told the emotional crowd that their daughter still jokes with them and is trying to learn to say "I love you." And religious groups at the rally argued the removal of the feeding tube would be cruel.

"Terri may be disabled, but her life is of great worth to God," James Dobson, founder of the Christian group Focus on the Family, said on a recorded message that was played to the crowd.

Doctors say Terri Schiavo, who was raised in the Philadelphia suburb of Huntingdon Valley, Pa., is in a persistent vegetative state - and that any movements or sounds she makes are coincidental and not a result of consciousness. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, contends his wife would not want to be kept alive artificially.


More at link:

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/103-03132005-462663.html

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deek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-05 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
27. It's not a right to die issue--it's a right to live issue
Not "better off dead"

http://www.notdeadyet.org/
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. This is a little different than what was discussed on that site
Terri has complete destruction of the cerebral cortex. She feels no pain, can't love, cant think and can't feel. She is basically just a shell with a video game connected to her spinal cord.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I see it more
as IMPOSING some semblance of life on somebody who has stated she didn't want to be kept alive like that.

Every person should have control over his or her own destiny, Terri included. There's no evidence whatsoever that WANTED her body kept alive indefinitely after her brain was gone. In fact, when I posted a poll on this subject recently, I believe the result was 70 to 0: 70 people said they'd NOT want to be kept alive in a PVS, and zero people said they would.

It is not unreasonable that Terri believed that, too.
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