The Soviets won

[Enraged_Ape]

I can't believe they pulled it off, but with the passage of this Bankruptcy Bill travesty in the Senate, I am now finally 100% convinced that the Soviets beat us in the Cold War. They beat us decisively.

Look what we have in our own country now, unthinkable just a few decades ago:

--A secret police system (Homeland Security)

--Gulags (Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and God knows where else)

--An imprisoned population that has quadrupled in the last 25 years, and that now per capita beats our closest rival: Russia.

--A one-party political system masquerading as two and wholly divorced from the input of the people it purports to represent

--Sham elections

--A sham media that reports only what the one party wants it to, except in cases where it can--very occasionally--present bogus straw-man arguments for the other side, or retractions buried at the bottom of page 24 of the Lifestyles section

--And now, thanks to the Bankruptcy Bill, perpetually indentured servitude--with absolutely no hope--for those people who were "foolish" enough to have a serious illness in the family or get sent off to one of our assortment of wars.

If this Social Security nonsense gets forced through, look for poverty the likes of which this country hasn't seen in 70 years. And watch for the crime and imprisonment rates to escalate to unprecedented proportions as people, choking to death on energy prices and inflation, do whatever it takes to afford the bare necessities of life.

In the meantime, while all we did to the Soviets was force them to transfer their empire from a central, enormous gang of criminals to a whole bunch of other, smaller gangs of criminals, we appear to be moving in the completely opposite direction.

Congratulations, Soviets. Red Staters, rejoice. You finally did it.

[American Tragedy]

1. Don't forget the invasions and occupations

Even being based in the largest country on Earth, the Soviet Union just never seemed to feel that it had enough territory or resources to exploit.

[ashmanonar]

2. yea, i'd believe it.

we ARE the new soviet union. Union of American Fascist States.

[MessiahRp]

3. Yep..

It is a lifetime of debtors prison that I see as the logical next step. I mean look it starts early on with Bush's cuts and targets...

-Can't go to Even Start (or lucky to find a spot in the severely cut Head Start) anymore to start off with proper education

-Struggle to get school lunches

-Grow up in a house with no heat because Energy Assistance is no longer subsidized to the same degree under Bush

-Then when it's time to go to College, tuition is way higher than it was before and there aren't enough grants or student loans available to help pay for it so you can't go.

-So you struggle working for barely above minimum wage because the good jobs were outsourced and overtime pay is not an option.

-You need help but see even deeper reductions in the Federal Welfare system so that it's harder to get help with Food Stamps or Medical Assistance

and finally...

-All of this debt has to be placed somewhere and it is balanced on your last line of defense, your credit. Your credit cards are maxed out and you no longer can go bankrupt to receive help for your non-stop piling up bills.

Debtors Prison. It was here in America the last time we had a King George. I can see the return of Poorhouses under the structure of Corporate Greed we live under today.

Rp

[Stop_the_War]

4. don't forget the imperialist wars...

[Tyler Durden]

5. Was there ever any doubt?

An EXTREMELY smart Navy Commander who this lowly li'l PO1 had drinks with on occasion in 1981 (he always bummed my smokes), was asked by another officer what we should do to win the cold war?

"Nothing. But if you want to speed it up, give 'em free cable with MTV (they had just started), open a couple of Neiman Marcus stores and a few Caddilac dealerships (this was in 1981 after all) and the USSR will be toast in less than 10 years. But in the end, THEY will win the cold war. All we have to do is lose it, and we will."

[Senator Lamb]

6. yea the soviets won

Russia is doing pretty good now.

[hootinholler]

26. You forgot to start out with

"and this is no shit"

-Hoot
Former ET-3 (SS)

[Redstone]

7. Well, they did beat themselves, too, because

things are kinda crappy pretty much throughout the former USSR.

But you have a helluva point there; the USA is looking more like the old USSR every single day.

I've been saying this to everyone for a few years now. Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Good post.

Redstone

[Enraged_Ape]

11. Thanks

What I find most incredible is that there are right-wingers in this country who are proud and happy to proclaim themselves as "RED". Could you imagine these people doing that, say, 15 years ago?

[Redstone]

20. Dang, I hadn't thought about that!

Call them "red" back then, they'd have punched you!

Redstone

[Kazak]

8. Nominated.

:cry:

[Redstone]

9. Christ, did you see the post titled "Georgia woman told to get

a divorce?"

If THAT doesn't prove your point, nothing does!

Redstone

[Kazak]

10. Mind if I paste this, Ape?

This is too good not to pass around. I'll give credit to you of course.

[Enraged_Ape]

15. Absolutely. By all means.

I hope it causes someone who may be "on the fence" to weigh what is happening in this country against what it is they think they're gaining.

[Lone Pawn]

12. We're moving the opposite ideological direction from the USSR

We're moving towards a nation of business and corporations forcing American into indentured servitude with no government restrictions--not the government controlling production in a land of forced equality. Completely opposite extremes. Both bad, both terrible, both similar for the average man, but still opposites.

[RaleighNCDUer]

16. A minor, but major, disagreement. It's not with 'no government

restrictions', but with'government collusion'. There are plenty of government restrictions on the sectors they want restricted.

[Lone Pawn]

19. Collusion, certainly, but since it's business dictating government

as opposed to government dictating business, it's literally the opposite system from the Soviets.

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. That is the greater part, with which I totally agree. n/t

[checks-n-balances]

33. More like the opposite sides of the same coin

And that coin is Totalitarian Regimes.

[tom_paine]

25. Not in the 2D view of politcal mapping

Extreme Right (Nazis, Pinochet, Busheviks) and Extreme Left (Soviets, Khmer Rouge) both merge at the Authoritarian Compass Point.

It's why Hitler's Tyranny had so much in common with Stalin's Tyranny, in spite of the fact they had opposite economic philosophies.

It is why Bush, the modern Hitler, and Putin the modern Stalin's Tyrannies are so much alike I call them BOTH BushPutinist States.

And in that regard, we are moving in the IDENTICAL direction of the Soviet Union, Authoritarianism, Orwellian Tyranny, whatever you want to call it.

We are just approaching the same point from opposite directions.

[Lone Pawn]

36. Not all authoritarian states are created equal.

Bush and Stalin no more "merge" in their authoritarian than Nader and Stalin "merge" at a planned economy. You're misinterpreting.

Certainly Hitler's, Stalin's, Putin's, Deng's, Lincoln's, and Bush's states are all authoritarian, but are still extremely different in operation. Even politicalcompass's handy little chart is extremely simplistic.

Moreover, Bush and Putin are very different. Bush is an economic conservative, whereas Putin leans economic liberal. I recognize that both are authoritarian, of course. But the construction, purpose, and mode of operation of their governments are exceedingly difficult.

[tom_paine]

13. They won it by losing it, so to speak

They Busheviks could have NEVER turned us into the New Soviet Union if the old one was still around!

(what a paradox, eh?)

Could the Busheviks have instituted a Secret Police when "that's what the Soviets do".

Could they have Sovietized the media and Sovietized the Executive Agencies if the Soviets were still producing their reports and laughable 5 Year Plans?

No, I believe that by getting out of the way, the Soviets paved the way for Imperial Amerika to become what they were (in a slightly different "Free-Market" form).

Funny, isn't it. Still, I am not sad to see them gone and yet...better them than us.

Sorry if you find it cruel and Darwinian to say that, but it's true...at least for me.

Now, of course, BOTH nations live under BushPutinism, the New Totalitarianism.

So the Soviets lost, then they lost again as they swiftly went from Fledgling Free nation to BushPutinist State.

The whole thing is a tragedy for all humanity...the Rise of BushPutinism, that is.

[Kazak]

14. Wow And Flutter

I didn't question I didn't know
As far as I'd seen life was endless
When I realised I had to let go
We are mere mortals
As to the rest
It's not eternal, imperishable
While on the move
It's not eternal, interminable
Progress is the clue

I though IBM was born with the world
The US flag would float forever
The cold opponent did pack away
The capital will have to follow
It's not eternal, imperishable
Oh yes it will go
It's not eternal, imterminable
The dinosaur law

Look at the symbols, they are alive
They move evolve and then they die.

-Laetita Sadier (Stereolab)

[Deja Q]

17. Oh for pity's sake, I'm sick of this bullshit. Here's who's responsible:

The soviets had nothing to do with it. They're in Russia, living in the mess Reagan, Gorbechev, and that lot did to make them capitalist.

Unethical, control-freak politicians did it. It's the charismatic people whom (most of) the rest of us see as someone who can get things done. Those who follow take the leader at face value. Magnetic personality equates to being able to do no wrong.

Leaders and followers. The rest of us are wanderers or malcontents. "Freedom" is allowing the wanderers to remain wanders; to not compel them to make the choice to be for or against the leader when it comes time to make the hard choice.

It's the one common trait, apart from death and exploitation, that hasn't separated modern-day (2005) humans from our cavemen forebearers.

Also, those who get on the leader's good side get well rewarded; the others spat on. ALL politicians and leader-types are like this. Payment in kind for loyalty. This shit is rather easy to notice. So why haven't more people?

I am a wanderer philosopher.

A malcontent should be obvious enough to figure out, forgive me for not telling the rest of the chapter on "human nature".

[gordianot]

18. Good analogy with symbols Red Stater's-Soviets

Years ago a friend used to compare the Republican Party with the Soviet Communist Party. I always rejected that but have revised that opinion in recent years. He maintained that Communist and Republicans operate very similar and that the results they were seeking were the same. For example:

1. Rulers are wealthy and enjoy State privileges.
2. Both seek to establish a Police State and limit individual rights.
3. Both concentrate on Military production.
4. Both despise a free press.
5. Neither really want a free market.

Ultimately both represent an authoritarian elitist ruling class and pay lip service to the common man.

[palme]

21. Even in Scandinavia it's bad...

The government in Norway just increased the fee they take from debt victims. I don't know who is worst? The vampire credit companies, or the government?

Sad, sad.

In hi tech, Scandinavia, all you have to do now to get a credit card loan is to send a mobile phone text message. Hours later you have money to go and spend.

It is silly.

Hei,

Palme.

[Poiuyt]

34. Welcome to DU, Palme!!

[Hardrada]

37. Hello, Palme. Always good to hear

News of Norway. That is my ethnic background entirely (Sogning and Telemark area) and I check in on the Aftenposten now and then. Do you mean apply for a credit card? If you already have a credit card couldn't you just go into a bank and get cash with it? Or where do you pick up the money once the loan is approved. Just curious.

[i miss america]

23. I don't know that the Soviets won - but I am sure that Americans lost

[slaveplanet]

24. There's only a few pieces of the

puzzle left to go,,,Social security is one, and then come the thought crimes and reeducation camps, toll roads , and moving people off private property, into compact citys...won't be long unless there is a mass awakening

[Dirk39]

27. The ones who did benefit from "communism"

Hello from Germany,
the ones who did benefit from "communism" were the workers in the capitalist societies. As long as the Soviet Union did exist as a real existing counterpart to capitalism, capitalism did somehow try to be the better socialism, too. Since the Soviet Union was destroyed, the elites in the west have started a class-war. Nothing that resembles socialism, everything the labour-movement and unions did archieve during the last 150 years is under attack.

Dirk

[Hardrada]

30. The thesis then is capitalism once more.

But the historical dialectic does not end with that. The antithesis must again be a union of labor and the dispossessed. In any case capitalism must give way to a more sane system since the resources of the world are running out. Ideas to ponder anyway. Also, I liked the movie "Goodbye, Lenin." It made me sorry I had never gotten to visit the DDR while it still existed.

[Joe Chi Minh]

31. Very perceptive,Dirk.

I hadn't seen that as clearly.

[IrateCitizen]

28. Hardly did the Soviets win. Rather, both sides lost...

The sole difference being that the Americans just didn't lose quite as quickly as the Soviets did.

I often wonder what might have been in the old USSR if Gorbachev had not been forced out. Boris Yeltsin was one of the most corrupt politicians in Russia, and he allowed the Russian economy to be completely gutted -- a process from which Russia is just recently begun to recover. Gorbachev was certainly on the right track -- a gradual transition from an authoritarian state and command economy to a more open state and a hybrid economy. It's just too bad he was caught between the old Soviet hard liners and the free market pirateers.

But back to the US and the cold war. Leaders in the US saw our "victory" in the cold war as evidence that the American way was the "right" way of doing things. But, we are now seeing that it is hardly the "right" way, as we are beginning to suffer under the burden of massive overspending on our military as our domestic economy gradually implodes. I would have said a couple of years ago that it would take the US about 12-15 years to decline as a world superpower. Given the complete wrongheadedness of the Republican Right that now completely controls the Federal Government, I put the over/under at 7.

The USSR and USA both lost the Cold War. The USA just hasn't realized it yet.

[info being]

29. The US is just like the USSR, only with more bullshit

That's a paraphrase from a film called Red House.

[killbotfactory]

32. I call it the De-Enlightenment

A new dark ages. We have our own royal families in the Bush and Clintons. We'll have the social "elites" living high on the hog justifying their indulgences with social darwinist philosophies, working hand in hand with pious theocrats, while the poor grow and suffer and are encouraged by our leaders to dismiss science and critical thought.

Better dead than red

[AuntiBush]

35. Yeah RED STATE MINDED! And you CALL US Commi's!

NERVE! I swear they're all nuts, but they're too STUPID to be CRAZY!

[depakid]

38. The irony of the evil empire

is that many of the people manipulating Reagan (who was too dumb to understand issues of any complexity) always had in their minds to supplant the Soviet Union with an American hegemony that in many ways mimiced the very worst qualities it had to offer- and in other ways encouraged the worst aspects of American society- namely, religious fundamentalism, inefficient unregulated monopolies and oligarchies, and a return to highly polarized wealth distribution like one sees in third world countries.

I remember thinking back when Reagan was making his "evil empire" statements that if the right wing extremists ever got their way, the world would see just how evil an empire could be.

The only thing preventing that now, of course, is another irony- the far right's inability to understand (or unwillingness to apply) rational economic principles. In another few years, they'll have so devistated the country's wealth producing capabilities, so indebted the treasury and impoverished so many citizens and communities that their dreams of hegemony will never come to fruition.

[Name removed]

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