Mother of Fallen Soldier Responds to Iraq Withdrawal Debate

[WilliamPitt]

For the last several days, there has been a running debate on this page about how and when the United States should withdraw from Iraq. It began with a post of mine asking FYI forum members to come up with a plan to do this, as everyone appears to be in agreement that leaving Iraq is something that must happen.

The second thread came as a response to an Anti-War.com post that bluntly and appropriately questioned my candlepower on this issue. My reply was an attempt to lay out the wide, varied and multifaceted problems inherent in an immediate withdrawal that cannot be ignored. I sure don't have all the answers on this, and I probably never will, but I did my best to lay out the issues as I understand them.

Yesterday afternoon, I received a letter from Cindy Sheehan, co-founder of Gold Star Families For Peace and mother of Spc. Casey Austin Sheehan, 1st Battalion, 82nd Field Artillery Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division, who was killed in Baghdad on April 4th, 2004. He was 24 years old.

More:

http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2005/3/11/93730/3285



Spc. Casey Austin Sheehan
1st Battalion, 82nd Field Artillery Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division
Killed in Iraq April 04, 2004

[Ilsa]

1. Thanks, Will. If you don't mind, I'd like to post a link to this Truthout

editorial on another board I visit. The board is completely unrelated to politics, and we sometimes discuss these issues. I think hearing this directly from the mother of a dead soldier may re-energize some of them.

Thanks for not letting the issue get drowned in the daily MSM stalkings of Michael Jackson, Robert Blake, and Martha Stewart.

[WilliamPitt]

2. Please do

and thanks.

[KarenS]

3. stunning,,,, sad,,,, troubling,,,,,

There are no easy answers in this situation.

god bless us all.

You do good work, Mr. Pitt.
My heart goes out to all of those who have lost loved ones.

[diamond14]

7. Congress: How do we get out of Vietnam?

John Kerry: .... on trucks, and boats, and planes.



Of course, it's easy....all it takes is ONE phone call from the Commander-in-Chief, and the troops will LEAVE....



it's nothing more than slimy reTHUGlicans BushSHIT to push the old Vietnam LIE: oh my, how can we possibly leave, the place will collapse without us, the world will be in chaos....blah blah blah....


sadly, more and more DUers are buying that old LIE: hook, line and sinker...THREE YEARS at war in Afganistan, TWO YEARS at war in Iraq, destroying our own people and our country...yet some will STILL claim that this MUST CONTINUE....they are spokespeople for the neo-con WAR-PROFITEERS and the longer they spew this disinformation, the longer the bush* WARS will continue....maybe if 'progressive' publications keep up the 'discussion', then the bush* wars can continue for 14 years (or as bush* said: perpetual war)....

[KarenS]

90. of course, it's easy to say it,,,,,

NOW,,,,, how are the collective WE gonna make'em DO it????

I am one of those 'get out now' folks, big time. I also am one of those folks that thinks it's abit more complicated than 'just leave' ~ this Country owes the world an apology, the UN an apology, we owe Iraq money to rebuild their country that we destroyed (not just with the war but with the years of sanctions), the Bush regime has taken away any credibility and respect we had in the world community for many years to come.

There is nothing easy about this.

Have you ever once heard Chimpy admit to a mistake?? Instead he forges ahead, full-steam,,,, very CEO-ish, he is.

[xchrom]

4. i don't think it's realistic

to think that iraq's future is going to be less violent as a result of our staying.
as you put it -- thanks to george and the boys.

we have put iraq on the road to civil conflict for years to come.
they have to find the means to evolve and our presense simply adds to the agony of that struggle.

more -- part of this conflict is a war within islam itself.
a war that the west should most assuredly stay out of.

ms. sheehan shows great courage by opening herself up to this dialogue -- it cannot be easy to enter into this conversation for anybody in her position.

she makes extremely cogent points regarding america's continuing abandonment of our veterans -- a real crime since now america has been called to war by george -- and george himself wants to reduce va benefits.
the costs cannot be measured -- though some will try.
they will try to give dollars and cents figures for this self made tragedy. making america the more pathetic.

we no assurance that the democrats could turn that situation around -- making for an impossible situation.
a campaign making promises to iraq war veterans that no one could deliver on.

for my money -- leaving now is the best scenario. i don't think it would be better if we left later.
i think there is plenty of blood left to be shed in iraq.
and more misery to heap on our armed forces after they come home.

[diamond14]

5. Gold Star Families for Peace KNOW what they are talking about...

unfortunately, it's real sad both to me and to them, when some, claiming to be 'progressives' turn to the DARK SIDE, and begin mouthing the reTHUGlican talking points, in order to prolong a nasty illegal profitable war.....

there's more needed here than just a 'little sympathy' barf onto the families of the dead...ACTIONS speak louder than words....

[plant-fan]

6. "To a degree".. "almost total loss for words". Huh ?

Why not just admit you got punked by the good Mrs. Sheehan.

SHE is the one with skin in the game. She and others like her are the ones who should decide whether or not the loss of their children is justified by some geo-political issue. Who are you or anyone else to say that it looks like a good deal from where you sit - x number of soldiers killed and wounded every day for some long-run benefit that no one can see ?

[Bridget Burke]

8. Published writers sometimes change their minds.

They risk a lot by writing & then publishing under their own names.

Those of us who remain in obscurity never have to correct ourselves.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

12. Are you accusing me of being a war profiteer?

Seriously, are you actually doing that?

[diamond14]

15. I'm NOT buying what you're trying to sell....

:puke:

[WilliamPitt]

16. Understood

and that's fine; disagreement is what this place is about.

But if you call me a war profiteer, that is a whole different ball game.

[diamond14]

23. making unsubstantiated accusations is very very rovian....

"IF you call me......"


and YOU KNOW exactly what you're doing.....once-a-long-time-ago, I didn't think you'd lower yourself to such antics....




:puke:

[WilliamPitt]

26. Hm

"well, it gets more people linking to your publication, and of course, maybe some will DONATE money.....it's another way of making money off the bush* WARS....keep the 'discussion' going for 14 years or more....like Vietnam....just keep 'publishing' and making money off your opinion, as OUR troops are KILLED every single day....

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

_|_

[diamond14]

28. are people DONATING money to your web site? are you SELLING

YOUR opinion, through books and speeches?


or are you just calling people names, rather than responding to the FACTS?


there was once-upon-a-time, a long-long-time-ago, when I didn't think you'd take the LOW ROAD....

[WilliamPitt]

30. I think I've completed the task

of exposing you. Please continue your diatribe, and thanks for playing.

[MissB]

32. Probably innapropriate

(on my part, not yours) but this is just not as entertaining as that Friedberg one. :P

[WilliamPitt]

35. The Friedberg one?

Did it have something to do with bees?

[MissB]

37. Yes, I believe it did

there was some buzzing, if I recall, by a rare Lillian bee.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[diamond14]

52. the questions were NOT answered....

I would GREATLY appreciate your answers to my questions....

[WilliamPitt]

54. 'K. Real world calling

People do donate to our site. We are entirely donation-driven.

Running large websites that require several editors and technical staffers costs money, friend. I hate to intrude on your bile-duct venting with fact, but there it is. Any organization looking to do good requires funding, from the NAACP to the Green Party.

I have published two books. Except for one small revenue check I got two years ago, no, I have not gotten paid. My first publisher went bankrupt because he published 125,000 copies of the Iraq book and we gave them away at protests. It got the message out but obliterated his business at a great personal and financial loss to him. I am still not sure why I got no money for the second book, because it sold reasonably well, but the fact that I haven't bothered to find out should probably tell you how much of a shit I don't give about getting paid for what I write.

As for a personal salary, yes, I get a meager one. Here on earth we have to pay rent, utilities and grocery bills. I suppose you don't get paid for what you do, and more power to you if that is the case.

[diamond14]

56. no, I don't get paid....I VOLUNTEER to STAND UP against bush* WARS.....

any other way would HURT my soul.....

[WilliamPitt]

59. I bow and scrape before your righteousness

So, do you graze the open plains for your food, or are you an android that does not need food?

Do you pay rent, or are you still living with your parents, or are you in a tent?

How is it you pay for the internet connection and computer you use to share your righteousness with us all?

I answered your questions. You answer mine.

[WilliamPitt]

60. Waiting...

[WilliamPitt]

62. Waiting...

[WilliamPitt]

64. Waiting...

[WilliamPitt]

66. Waiting...

I'm here all day, chief.

[WilliamPitt]

67. Still waiting...

[WilliamPitt]

68. Yup...waiting...

[WilliamPitt]

69. Waiting...

[WilliamPitt]

71. Can you guess what I'm doing right now? Yup. I'm waiting.

[H2O Man]

74. Please stop waiting.

There is important work to be done. It is unfortunate that in a disagreement about tactics, people resorted to insults and digs. But we do not have time to invest in nonsense that threatens to divide us. While I do not agree with your ideas on the need to stay/withdraw, I feel that I speak for the vast majority of DUers who want to end the American involvement -- now -- when I say that I appreciate the work you do. So get back to it.



PS: Don't you owe me a dollar? Maybe not "owe" per say, but don't you want to send me a dollar?

[WilliamPitt]

76. I am multi-tasking

Right now I am putting together the final revisions for todays TO edition, tracking the debate on the Iraq war on my blog, denying allegations that I killed the Easter Buny in the Lounge, growling at my boss on the phone, petting my cat, and waiting for the guy who accused me of war profiteering to answer my fucking questions.

*snicker* on the dollar. :)

[H2O Man]

78. "A conspiracy of silence

speaks louder than words." - Dr. Winston O'Boogie

I think that was from the notes from "Walls and Bridges," though at my age my memory is often off by anywhere from an album to a single.

[WilliamPitt]

79. Or maybe

his mom finally made him go to school.

[H2O Man]

81. It took me a minute to respond .....

I was looking in MacLysaght's "The Surnames of Ireland" to see if I could find Pitt. It wasn't there .... (grin) Your multi-tasking reminded me of a few relatives.

[Laurab]

126. LOL

just made me spit out my coffee, dammit!

[WilliamPitt]

82. Not to be redundant but....waiting.

[WilliamPitt]

89. ...and waiting.

[WilliamPitt]

95. Getting older by the minute here.

[KoKo]

98. While you are waiting, could you check out post #58 A New Course in Iraq?

A New Course in Iraq* Erick Leaver. The link is there and it's from "leftchick's" earlier post.

A proposed plan or the start of one.

http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/Iraq_Aftermath/2005/01/article_01.shtml

I can't believe you are still here waiting for that poster to reply. :shrug:

[WilliamPitt]

106. I'm persistent

I have this article on my desktop. I am going to give it a full reading before I reply. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

As for waiting, I'm really not. Just making a point.

[Swamp Rat]

108. Can you let it go for just a few minutes to look at some of the good

suggestions in this thread? Just for a little while, then you can go back to :spank:

Look at mine too, please. (#92) :)

[KoKo]

109. This isn't something

you should be pissed off over so much that you are hanging around here on a DU thread "street corner" waiting for this person to come so you can "slug em." FGS get a grip.

Please read that article and do something to keep your discussion going on Truth Out. Or wade through that snowstorm and find something fun to do...Politics is wearing us all down. But, continuing discussion instead of cutting it off is helpful.

[WilliamPitt]

118. I have read the article, I am keeping my discussion going on truthout

and I am waiting for the person who called me a war profiteer to answer some questions.

That was possibly the ugliest thing anyone has said to me on this forum. I am not waiting to 'slug him,' and it's a damned sure thing I don't need to be scolded by you. I have questions. This person chased me all over the forum to find out how rich I am getting off Bush's war; I'd like to find out what time his mom makes him go to bed.

[KoKo]

124. And,

when you find out, what good does that do you? :shrug:

[LoZoccolo]

61. An argument could be made that that could be a less effective way.

If you're not getting paid for it, you can feel free to stand up any old ineffective, idle, shrill, counterproductive, impractical, unnecessarily rude, overly-emotional, unaccountable, cavalier way much more than if you get paid for it.

[mordarlar]

94. Enough already. For God's sake. You are questioning someone's soul for

HAVING AN OPINION? For putting forth debate?

Or is it because he influences MORE people? Or maybe because he gets paid. Damn him!

Look he is a human being entitled to work through the same processes that you APPARENTLY feel you have already completed. Personally i prefer someone who is willing to look at things from several perspectives, and see things as continual growth, than someone who HAS IT ALL FIGURED OUT.

I can think of a certain prominent figure who seems unable to step outside of his own perspective and see a bigger picture. He got us into a HEAP of shit.

THE REALITY IS, things are far more complicated than the black and white spin you would like to try and place on things. MANY OF US have suffered because of the policies of certain *people* in power. And more will likely be hurt before any solutions are fully realized, EITHER WAY!

[bigtree]

73. heck

I had this idea that the books helped pay your way. For sure I want you to have your say. I count on you to elevate the issues we raise here. Somehow I fooled myself into believing that your efforts at truthout gave you enough of a financial lift that would carry you through. You're just ekeing it out like the rest of us. You have my admiration (you've heard that enough) but you also have my best wishes as well. I am counting on you Will Pitt. From my computer to my nite job, I'm counting on your full-time efforts to set things right. Not too much pressure, huh? Thanks for sharing your financial situation. I don't feel like such a fool for dropping 2 years of my life and all of my dough into what I believe in now. Sounds trite, but I really do count on you.

[WilliamPitt]

11. I'd think running the letter in the first place

is a pretty good indication that I got schooled.

That having been said, what I wrote was true: I hadn't made up my mind about anything. The issue deserves a lot more than three-word answers to the questions involved.

[leftchick]

10. What a wonderful Mother.....

Here is an approach I read in January that makes so much sense. Unfortunately as Mrs. Sheehan knows it may be a while before congress gets a grip on the reality of Iraq and actually takes these

5 Steps Out of Iraq...


http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/Iraq_Aftermath/2005/01/article_01.shtml

~snip~

In the six months since the transition to Iraqi sovereignty officially got underway on June 28, 2004, the human cost of the US occupation of that country has risen dramatically. US military deaths have topped 1,200. A study published in The Lancet has estimated that 100,000 Iraqis have died as a result of war and conditions under occupation. Norwegian researchers, the United Nations, and the Iraqi government recently reported that malnutrition among the youngest children in Iraq has nearly doubled since the US-led invasion of that country. And soaring rates of disease and a crippled health system are threatening to kill more than those who have died in the aftermath of the war.



Iraqis need to be in charge of their own security. But the Iraqi police and National Guard have largely failed to provide security for the Iraqi people and the situation appears to be only worsening. Iraq’s security forces are fighting in a war that puts anyone who is physically near or associated with the US occupation at risk. At the same time, soldiers and police officers lack adequate training. One measure of the problem can be seen in their death toll. Over 1,500 Iraqi security force recruits and 750 Iraqi police officers have been killed. Iraqi security forces can’t succeed as long as the US is leading a war on the ground in Iraq.

As Larry Diamond, who worked as a senior adviser to the Coalition Provisional Authority, has noted, “There are really no good options,” at this point. But there are better options than the policies being currently pursued. The following five steps would lessen the violence and insecurity in Iraq:

1. Decrease US troops and end offensive operations: As a first step to withdrawal, the US should declare an immediate cease-fire and reduce the number of troops deployed in Iraq. Instead, the Bush administration has done the opposite, increasing the number of troops stationed there by 12,000. Increased offensive operations will only escalate the violence and make Iraq less secure and less safe. The US should pull troops out of major cities so that greater manpower can be directed to guarding the borders to stem the flow of foreign fighters and money being used to fund the resistance. If Iraqi security forces need assistance maintaining order, they have the option of inviting in regional forces, as proposed by Saudi Arabia. They could also reinstate the former Iraqi army, which was well-trained, after purging upper-level Saddam supporters and providing additional counterinsurgency training to deal with the current war. Once implemented, these measures would allow for total withdrawal of US forces


... much more

[KoKo]

17. This looks like an interesting read, leftchick. Thanks...

I've long felt that the Iraqi's would be better taking care of themselves than being treated like children to be manipulated by Bush, our Military, and the Corporate Contractors. Unfortunately the Bush Crime Syndicate had and has "other ideas."

Anyway, so far this looks reasonable, I'll go to the link and read the rest.

[DinahMoeHum]

13. Will, with all due respect, I suggest you admit defeat on this issue.

The Gold Star Families For Peace just destroyed your argument for good.

They and the folks in Iraq Veterans Against The War have the "street cred". You don't.

And frankly, I agree with them. I was against this war in Iraq from day one, and nothing that has happened since the invasion has changed this stance.

The sooner we leave Iraq, the better. The less we meddle around with Iran, the better. Our government has fucked these two countries for more than fifty years and has given them nothing but repressive dictators, death and misery. The time has come to say: Enough. Game Over. Basta Ya.


:nuke:

[WilliamPitt]

14. OK

So how do we get out?

Seriously. The point I am making is two-fold:

1. "On planes" isn't enough of an answer;

2. Any answer is going to have to encompass dealing with Bush, the Pentagon, the media and congress.

Please share your game plan, so long as it is longer than three words.

[DinahMoeHum]

18. I'm sorry, man. I really don't know what to do about this itch

we all feel. But it's gonna have to get scratched, and the source is gonna have to be eliminated, one way or another.

Seriously, these days, I'm feeling: Fuck peace, I want revolution.
If it means sacking everybody mentioned in Item 2, so be it. And if we cannot do this by the ballot - well - let's not go there.

Sorry as hell, man. I'm just too bitter, angry and scared for our nation right now.


:nuke:

[WilliamPitt]

19. I understand, but you kinda make my point

I get screamed at by people saying GET OUT NOW, and I get tagged for daring to do more than give the three-word anthem. I scream back, I AGREE, HOW THE FUCK DO WE DO IT, and I get um...........

If this was easy, someone would have figured it out by now.

[MissB]

20. I don't think she punked you

I think she was (quite rightly) speaking as the mother of a dead soldier. Her grief was apparent. As a mother, she doesn't want others to feel her heartache.

I want our soldiers out of Iraq. I fear that both of my siblings will be recalled (one, a pilot during the first gulf war, the second a former foot soldier). It is so damned easy for me to say "get us the fuck out of Iraq! NOW!"

But it isn't that easy. I read your post the other day. You made very good and very valid points. I'd prefer to not think of the reasons why we should not just fly everyone out. Really, I'd be perfectly happy in this one instance to just accept Bush's word that it is time to leave (should he happen to say that). But that would not make things right.

There is a difference between what you were saying in your thread versus what she hears from the Bush administration (Bush: we must complete the mission to honor the sacrifices). You were saying essentially that the right path out of Iraq includes doing things that those of us that detest the war will find distasteful. While I agree with what you said, it is still a bitter pill for me to try to swallow. I would rather just leave than deal in any way with the ramifications. After all, my brothers would be safe.

This war was built on lies and betrayals - that much is true. But you were right - we cannot walk away.

[LynnTheDem]

24. Dear Iraqis:

On Date X, 4 weeks from today, all occupation forces will be gone from your country. We've come to realize we are part of the problem, not the solution. Iraq must forge its own path, and the Iraqi people, the Cradle of Civilization, are strong and capable. We, the people of the world, wish you all the very best in your new future, may it be a peaceful one for all.

IRAQ FOR THE IRAQIS!

George W. bush

[WilliamPitt]

27. That's a wish, not a solution

My point is made again.

[LynnTheDem]

31. No Will. You again didn't GET the point.

WE will NEVER be the solution. WE are the PROBLEM.

Please. Stop thinking of the Iraqis as incapable children. As a society they've been around longer than we have by a few thousand years. They managed just fine after they kicked Britain out during the UK's last invasion. Have you ever looked at Iraq's timeline?

THEY want us out. The vast majority of Iraqis want us OUT of THEIR country, and that's even if it means civil war.

WHY can't we EVER just for ONCE do what the f*ck OTHERS ASK us to do!!! It really would make such a bloody nice change.

The only solution is for us to leave. Every day we remain is another day of death, destruction, and increasing hatred.

Do you want to give it another year and another 1000 US troops and 50,000 Iraqi lives, just in case we're turning the corner?

What's the magic number? My HUSBAND is US military, Will. If he's killed in Iraq, is that good enough? Can we then get the hell out like the IRAQIS have been asking us to do for over a year now? Or how about my nephew. He's 21, just married, baby on the way. He's in Baquoba right now. Will his death be the magic number?

Bottom line; the IRAQIS want us out and whether we think they're incapable of looking after thermselves or not, and regardless of how GUILTY we feel, that we should be staying and putting things right, THEY want us out and it's THEIR country. After that comes the fact that it's because we're there that people are dying in Iraq.

They HATE US, Will. I know Americans don't want to beleive this but the vast majority of Iraqi people hate us. Staying only makes it worse.

Think about if we'd left Iraq in the early summer 2003; look at the ICCC tables back then. Look at them now.

Last year we were averaging 25 attacks a day on US forces. This year we're averaging 60 attacks a day on US forces.

WTF are we waiting for?

[WilliamPitt]

33. "WTF are we waiting for?"

We are waiting for someone to come up with a workable plan that can overcome Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Bolton, Cheney, Halliburton, Congress, Bechtel, ExxonMobil, global oil addiction, massive war profiteering, brain-dead media coverage and about 50 other things that stand between us and the withdrawal you so desperately desire.

I fucking get it, Lynn. I still have not heard a fucking plan. Just a lot of fucking noise. And I don't deserve to be slapped around for pointing out the fact that all the righteous indignation in the universe IS NOT A SOLUTION.

[LynnTheDem]

38. Why do we need a PLAN, Will?

Plan for WHAT exactly???

We pack up our stuff, we say goodbye, we board the planes, and we leave.

What else do you think we need to plan for???


Edited to add: Will, my husband's life is on the line here, as is my nephew. From my shoes, hell yes you deserve to be smacked.

[WilliamPitt]

39. Oh for chrissake

You're off my list of potential policy advisors.

Wow.

[Jacobin]

40. Don't be so dismissive

Hey, it worked before:

[LynnTheDem]

42. And you're off mine, because unlike YOU, I have family whose LIVES

are at risk.

Plan: pack up and get the hell out. Bonus; that's what the Iraqis want us to do, too.

[WilliamPitt]

45. But we don't need a plan?

Again, wow.

If I had family at risk, I'd be burning the midnight oil trying to come up with a plan...wait...I *have* been burning the midnight oil trying to come up with a plan.

But you just cruise right past that step.

[LynnTheDem]

49. Ok I've calmed down somewhat. You mean a plan to make bush pull us out

Right now even Dems think we "must stay" and fix things.

Plan:

1. Pound it into American's wee brains that the IRAQIS WANT US OUT. NOW, and how the f*ck are we "spreading democracy" when we're ignoring what the vast majority of Iraqis want us to do???

2. Until the American PEOPLE get it, ain't no way in hell bush will pull out.

He doesn't care how many troops or how many Iraqis are killed in Iraq. He simply does not care.

The only way he will ever pull out is if and when a majority of American people want us out.

How to overcome their superiority complex? To overcome that so-well meant, but so damn condescending and arrogant "we can't just cut and run and desert the poor little people in Iraq and besides we destroyed it so we have to stay and fix it even though the Iraqis don't want us to." crap?

By realizing we MUST do for the people of Iraq what THEY want us to do, that in fact they DO want us to leave and right now, and that that's the only right thing to do, it's the only democratic thing to do. Educate educate educate.

As long as polls show that while only 39% approve of bush's invasion of Iraq, 60% say we must stay & stabilize the country, then bush is gonna stay. But most the articles by liberals around the net & media say "we must stay until the country is stabilized..." Make them see the light so they can shine the light on their readers.

[diamond14]

55. Plan: STAND UP to everyone and anyone who claims that we

must STAY in Iraq and Afganistan.....for whatever crappy reasons (and there will be many reasons, evolving as we go along, just like the "Weapons of Mass Destruction" reason).....


STAND UP against those who LIE that America can't leave...WE CAN LEAVE anytime....all it takes is ONE PHONE CALL from the commander-in-chief....or like Vietnam...Congress CHOKES OFF THE MONEY...or sadly, it will happen like Somalia or Beirut....


BUT, WE THE PEOPLE must STAND UP against those who LIE, claiming we need a 'plan' or that we can't just leave....

STAND UP for TRUTH...that's the PLAN....

[KoKo]

65. They won't leave. To admit their lies is too much for them. American

people would "turn on them." Vietnam pullout is still with us. That war tore our country apart and just cost us another election because the Swift Boat Liers (War Mongers who have to justify our our actions there never got over the pullout) went against Kerry who served, came back and told the truth. That damned War hangs over our head and again leads to another War (Doctrine of Pre-emptive Strike) so that once and for all THEY will be proved right in their vision of American world dominance.

They will never leave Iraq or the Middle East until we have an economic collapse and chaos here at home. BUT...there needs to be a plan that we who want to GET OUT FAST can agree on an propose to get pressure on them before the Empire Builders drive us all into ruin.

If we can't push an alternate plan then we will keep protesting, but the Media refuses to cover the protests in any meaningful way and those who agree with the Empire could care less about why we are protesting.

We are either going to eventually have VIOLENCE/CHAOS/ECONOMIC DECLINE...or we are going to have to find another way. :shrug:

Read the link "leftchick" gave. What do you think? It might be a start of a plan that could be pushed along with our protesting. We've got to go after these criminals with every thing we have.

[ultraist]

77. 70% of Americans already don't approve of how things are going in Iraq

MOST Americans don't need a lot of convincing. MOST Americans realize that it is a fucking mess over there and that there is no reasonable explanation for why we cannot just pack it up and leave.

I have yet to hear a rational reason as to why we cannot pull out now.

[KoKo]

58. Will, what do you think of this plan?

I read the article "leftchick" posted. As a protestor against Iraq Invasion and a proponent of "We Have to Get Out" this plan seems reasonable to me...as long as there are timetables to implement it. Not "guidelines" but definite timetables.

Read it...or if you already have read it, what would be your objections?
Maybe you could post his points over at Truth Out and see what others think. :shrug:

Here's another snip:


http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/Iraq_Aftermath/2005/01/article_01.shtml

Reshaping Iraq

A New Course in Iraq*

By Erik Leaver
Foreign Policy in Focus


January 2 ,2005

The human cost of the US invasion of Iraq has risen dramatically (AFP photo).

As many members of Congress and President George W. Bush’s administration argue that it’s unacceptable to leave Iraq as a failed state, it becomes clearer every day that US operations and policies are fueling violence and instability. It’s time for the government to directly confront the question of how to fulfill US obligations under international law, restore basic security, and responsibly withdraw US forces.

Central to this point, Washington must not simply abandon the Iraqi people to the chaos it has created. But the US needs to accept the fact that continued military occupation by the US will only cause more casualties, foster division in the country, and keep reconstruction from advancing.

[Warren Stupidity]

103. You have ruled out reality. Now what?

It seems that your plan for getting out is to not get out. Your plan for changing course is to continue doing what we are doing. You seem as conflicted as Kerry on Iraq, actually worse, as you agree that the war was a mistake to begin with, a mistake now, but, oddly, we have to continue carrying on.

How many more dead Iraqis aqnd Americans before you admit that we cannot continue doing what we are doing, and that the only way out is to get out?

[MissB]

41. I want it to be that easy too

As I said in my above post. It isn't that easy. I think it would look that easy if one of my brothers was over there, or if I had a child old enough to fight over there.

No one wants their child to be cannon fodder. No one.

[LynnTheDem]

44. We can wait until the Iraqis make it exactly that easy for us.

Like the Vietnamese did.

Only we'll have more dead Americans, more dead Iraqis, and more hatred towards us by then.

[MissB]

46. We can go around and around

but I do not think the morally appropriate thing to do is to walk away from the mess we've made. The short and long term ramifications suck, no matter if we stay or go. It is just that the short and long term ramifications suck more if we fly everyone out now.

And it is easy for me to say. The closest family I have over there right now is a cousin who is a nurse near Fallujah. I can look at this from a more clinical (cold) perspective.

The sack of lies that the Bush administration sold us included the idea that our soldiers were dying over there (no, sacrificing their lives) for our freedom. There is a point where that actually becomes the reality.

I fear reaching that point.

[LynnTheDem]

50. That's YOUR problem tho. Why must the IRAQIS suffer because of YOUR

belief?

THEY WANT US OUT. It's their country.

Why is what YOU think morally appropriate MORE IMPORTANT than what the Iraqis want???

You feel guilty, feel we should stay and fix things...I understand that. LIVE with the guilt. But WHY should the Iraqi people have to be punished because of your guilt or your opinion of what's morally appropriate.

WHY can't what the IRAQIS WANT be given top priority???

WHY do YOU think YOU know better what's best for the Iraqis than the Iraqis know???

[MissB]

53. Because, simply put, what is good for the Iraqis

isn't necessarily good for America.

Be angry at the Bush administration. They've put us (Americans) in this bind.

If we walk away now, it won't help my "guilt". I won't sleep better at night one way or the other. I'll still be haunted by the harm we've done to the Iraqis. I'll still see the images of burned Iraqi children. That won't go away.

The Bush administration has put this country in the position such that withdrawal from Iraq will have very serious consequences for us. Whether it is moral or not, it is all about us. That is what drives this administration - what is best for America. I may care a lot about the Iraqis, but the Bush adminstration doesn't give two shits one way or the other.

Getting out of there doesn't do anything other than keep some American soldiers from getting killed. It may be your kin that is saved - it may be my kin.

But it doesn't solve any of the other myriad of problems.

[LynnTheDem]

57. Ok so what you mean is we should do what's best for us, not what's best

for the Iraqis.

See now there I 100% totally disagree.

And the longer we stay, the more people die. The more people die, the more hatred towards us increases. The more the hatred increases, the less safe we become.

It's that simple.

As for the "serious consequences" if we leave...how do you know? We KNOW the consequences of us staying; deaths.

What "serious consequences" happened when we left Vietnam?

I just hope the serious consequences of us staying doesn't end up with thousands or tens of thousands of US soldiers' deaths. And it very well could.

But my morality says what the IRAQIS want is the #1 only moral choice. And if that's not good for us, too bad. We're in the wrong. The Iraqis are not.

The moral choice is clear; we wronged them, we owe them, they want us to leave. That is the morally appropriate thing to do.

In my opinion and it won't change, and you've an equal right to yours, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

[MissB]

63. No, that is not what *I* mean we should do

that is what the perspective of the Bush administration is. Their perspective is what is best for America and screw everyone else. What the Iraqis want doesn't come into play with this administration.

My perspective is much different, although I certainly do take the consequences to America into account. The way out of Iraq involves creating less hatred towards Americans, which does not necessarily mean immediate withdrawal.

Americans die either way. But ignoring the long term consequences of creating even more people that hate Americans does not help us. Leaving and allowing Iraq to dissolve into even more of a mess isn't a solution. I don't even think that is morally right. Again, my opinion.

I truly wish we could just walk away. I would argue that more soldiers will eventually die that way.

We essentially want the same thing - less American soldiers dying and less Iraqis dying. The solution just appears to be different.

[Warren Stupidity]

105. why exactly can we not walk away?

I keep hearing this from people: "can't leave now". Why?

[AtTheEndOfTheDay]

72. You're on my list of policy advisers.

You're right. Will is wrong.

[LynnTheDem]

96. Thanks so much, AT.

You've cheered me right up, and I really REALLY appreciate that!

:hug:

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[diamond14]

47. "And I don't deserve to be slapped around....."

:puke: from a MILITARY FAMILY who has relatives in IRAQ....

[Jacobin]

25. "Iraqification" of the war

That's how we withdrew from Vietnam, by paying some locals to put on uniforms and 'fight their own' war....."Vietnamization" which is the ultimate in irony....another country trying to make Iraqis into Iraqis.

I think that is what they are doing to some extent, but the resistance is killing them off and intimidating them almost as fast as they are 'trained'.

When there is enough turmoil at home, and the budget gets bent bad enough, we will withdraw and call it "peace with honor" or some such and hopefully there will be enough helicopters to get our folks out quickly enough. Without turmoil at home at a significant level, I don't see us ever leaving.

[LynnTheDem]

36. And every bloody year for 5 years we were told "By next year, Vietnam

forces will be able to handle things on their own".

And every year people died. LOTS of people.

What just burns my butt is how we have such a f*cking SUPERIORITY COMPLEX, which makes up a huge part of why we're so disliked around the world. WE know what's best for the people of Iraq, so we can't just leave EVEN THOUGH THE MAJORITY OF IRAQIS HAVE BEEN WANTING US TO FOR OVER A YEAR.

Of course Americans aren't bloody LISTENING to the IRAQIS. WE know BEST.

[Warren Stupidity]

99. Ok I'll bite

Why isn't 'on planes' good enough? We got out of vietnam the same way.

I really don't get the "bad war but we can't just leave" theory of why we should continue to kill Iraqis.

[LynnTheDem]

21. Cindy sent me that yesterday and I thought "uh oh!"...caught between 2

heros of mine. :D

Now I can answer the email, lol!

[LynnTheDem]

104. Don't post tired!

Duh, lol!

That should be Pat sent me Cindy's email and I thought etc.

I'm going to bed. :D

[rwork]

22. We will get out when

Bush* and Cheney and other members of Congress start sending their children to Iraq.Then and only then will they realize the pain and suffering that has been caused.

[KoKo]

29. The cost of this war increasing our debt might start to move things faster

than waiting for Congress to send their children, though. Their kids would get out of it some way, even with what looks like a "fair draft" which forces "everyone" to serve. They would find a way along with the Corporatists who can conveniently send their kids to another country to boarding school if they have to, to avoid it.

But, it has to be the "Economics" of it. Money is all they listen to. We didn't have the tremndous personal and national debt we have now during Vietnam. We were even better off economically when Reagan increased Defense spending to the max. Bush's loose spending for his "Doctrine of Pre-Emptive Strike" has cost us lives and our economic health which not only affects our soldiers but all of the rest of us. And, yet he refuses to roll back his tax giveaways to the rich. All he needs to do is put it back to where Clinton had the taxes and it would be a huge help. But, the Repugs pride themselves on never "backing down" when they've made a mistake. They will take us all down with them if we don't keep fighting back.

[diamond14]

51. direct LINK to "Gold Star Families for Peace"....

ignore the "middle-meddlers-peddlers" and go straight to the source...

it's sad that these American Patriots have to spend even ONE OUNCE of energy fighting the DARK SIDE here....



Gold Star Families for Peace....
http://www.gsfp.org/

THE ACTUAL LETTER, which was NOT shown on the start of this thread...

-snips-

Dear Will:

My son was KIA in Iraq on 04/04/04. I think you have already made up your mind that our troops need to remain in Iraq...which is very sad. This is in response to your blog question yesterday and your reply to anti-war.com today.

I admire your tireless efforts to get the truth out...but I seriously have to disagree with you. I think that our presence in that country is fueling the insurgency that killed my son; which has also killed many more of America's sons and daughters (many more than the official count); has maimed almost 30,000 of our kids; and has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis and demolished their country.

Don't you think that the Iraqi people can rebuild their own country? Before the US invasion in March of 2003, they had a very capable work force filled with construction workers, contractors, engineers, etc. I think the 81 billion dollar appropriation's bill that this president wants Congress to pass would better be a reparation's bill.


Also, your views have the effect of invalidating what I, my organization, Gold Star Families for Peace, and other peace groups are doing to bring our troops home immediately, if not sooner.

[Laurab]

129. I read the same letter at the start of this thread n/t

[H2O Man]

70. I can remember

listening to my cousin talking one time; he was a Faith Keeper on the Onondaga Council of Chiefs at the time, and is a Wisdom Keeper now. His name is Oren Lyons, and this is what he told us:

"We must seek out the spiritual people because only that is going to help us survive. We have a great force -- a great brotherhood. This brotherhood involves all living things. And that, of course, includes us all. We are talking about the natural world, the natural force, all the trees, everything that grows, the water. That is part of our force.

"But when you gather spiritual force in one place, you also gather the negative force. We begin to perceive the enemy now, the power and presence of the negative force. There is a great battle coming."

Sometimes I forget these things, and so I'd like to thank those of you who have demonstrated the negative force that gathers when we attempt to harness the Power of the Good Mind.

I do not agree with Will Pitt's opinion on the state of the war in Iraq. But I do not question his sincerity, his intelligence, or his willingness to consider other points of view. I am not particularly concerned if a person makes ends meet by publishing books, articles, or giving speeches. I do admire people that invest themselves in the struggle for truth and justice.

Let's put this disagreement, the insults, and the hard feelings behind us. We have to allow for others to have differing opinions and points of view. We should have open and even intense debate here, but not the harshness that I am seeing here. This is wrong, and I would appreciate it if you stop the nasty insults now.

I think that we must consider having a handful of us go to Washington, DC, and go on a hunger strike. To do this as a team might be a good thing. No one would make money off of this. But we must step up to the plate and show a willingness to suffer in order to open people's hearts and minds. Please stop the hostility.

[Swamp Rat]

86. "Please stop the hostility." ... thank you H2O Man.

Some of us have family and friends there (me) and we want them home yesterday - I want an immediate withdrawal. In fact, I demand it.

Will Pitt makes a good point when addressing "how will we do it?" What will be the mechanism to make this event happen? I'm not so sure myself but I have a couple of suggestions:

1. Organize a national sit-down strike - perhaps March 19th.

2. We organize the best writers here at DU (not me) to write short articles, varying from 1 paragraph to a full page, that narrates a "common sense." I suggest using a few quotes here and there from various philosophical and/or religious sources.

3. We create a database of these articles here at DU of ready to print .pdf files. The articles should consist of black text only and made to be cheaply and easily reproduced.

4. We distribute these articles at work, churches and schools.

5. We start today... right now. Let's take advantage of the time we have left until March 19th. We have momentum and strength in unity.

[H2O Man]

111. I agree fully.

The only thing of value that can come from the silly little dispute here is that we can recognize we are all prone to being grumpy, having a small chip on our shoulder at times, and can even make being "right" seem kind of wrong. Those who are involved can set a great example by resolving this, or can be poor examples, by mimicing me when I have been grumpy on Friday afternoons past.

[Swamp Rat]

112. Now I am grumpy...

Because of this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3256471&mesg_id=3258932

[H2O Man]

115. Too many people are

too mad today. It's gotta stop. I may try to organize a DU sing-a-long in a few minutes. Maybe "Give Peace A Chance." Normally I advise people to remain sober and focused. Maybe tonight people need to relax and sing.

[Swamp Rat]

120. Good idea. n/t

[ultraist]

75. This mother's heartfelt words...

Also, I know you know the despicable condition that the VA system and military hospital system are in right now. Are you suggesting that we create thousands of more mentally and physically wounded of our children who will be dependent on a system that is so flawed? Not to mention the even more serious implications of depleted uranium syndrome which will probably never be recognized by our government. I know some soldiers who have returned who are suffering terribly from PTSD and they have been waiting for over a year for VA approval to get treated. PTSD is rarely diagnosed, so they don't receive the help they need.

And, most importantly and devastatingly, this war is based on lies and betrayals. Not one American soldier, nor one Iraqi should have been killed. Common sense would dictate that not one more person should be killed for lies. One of the people, my son, was more than enough for me and my family. I will live in unbearable pain until I die. First of all, because my first born was killed violently, and second of all, because he was killed for a neo-con agenda that only benefits a very chosen few in this world. This agenda and their war machine will chew up and spit out as many of our children as they can unless we stop them now.

:cry:

###

We need to GET OUT NOW! Pack it up and MOVE IT OUT! Give the Iraqis the money we are planning on spending on KILLING their citizens and DESTROYING their nation. There's the plan. OUT NOW!

Get the UN and other nations more involved to help them strategize on how to rebuild. Use OUR TAX DOLLARS to HELP the IRAQIS NOT MASS MURDER THEM.

How ANYONE could justify spending BILLIONS more on killling MORE IRAQIS and destroying more of their country is beyond me.

We should give them the BILLIONS of dollars and GET THE FUCK OUT. NOW

[bigtree]

80. I don't think there is an easy solution to our exit now

I don't think we can protect the Kurds or the Sunni minority with our continued presence there. I think that our occupation is creating more problems than we wish to remedy. It's always going to be the case that our presence will amplify the resistance to any government that emerges because of the heavy hand that we had in the formation of the interim govt. and in the elections.

Immediate withdrawal, however, would allow other countries, or other Muslim forces to assume a greater role because they could argue that they aren't compromised by our interfering occupation. We failed to garner more international support to oversee the election process and it became an American sponsored endeavor. That wasn't lost on the citizens there. Now the Iraqi troops that we are sponsoring and training are daily targets of the resistance. That effort needs to be more internationalized. Visibly so. Our precipitate withdrawal would begin to make it clear that we have no control or designs in the operation or shape of the new government.

Also we should relinquish control over the resources to further the reality of the lifting of our heavy hand. This could make all of the difference.

As Lynn says, there has to be an increase of our efforts, here and elsewhere, to convince the majority of Americans to oppose our continued occupation through stepped up appeals, advocacy, and in the press. Pressure on this White House has been mostly ineffective. We need to step up our exposure of war-profiteers and the connections of the military executives in this administration and their influence on Bush policy. We need to raise funds to finance some lawsuits in this regard.

But there are no easy answers, and there is nothing that our continued presence there can do to protect the interests and safety of those who are now vulnerable because of our removal of the controlling authority. Our occupation is, in fact, putting their lives more at risk than our exit would, and the burden on these parties is increasing. Bush sees Iraq as a center in his 'war on terrorism'. He has no intention of bugging out, especially since he needs Iraq as a base to prosecute his ambitions in Iran and Syria. We need to also focus our attention on informing Americans about the risks and folly of military interference in either of these countries. We need to better inform the public of the risks and folly of Bush's manufactured mandate to dominate the world militarily. We need to convince Americans of our need to re-focus our energy and resources here at home.

The damage has already been done in Iraq, and it is deepening with our continuing occupation and with our refusal to loosen our grip on their resources. Just turning away and leaving now is unfortunately our best option. Now we just need to convince the American people to force Bush's hand, in our advocacy, and with the issues we raise in the midterm elections.

[ultraist]

83. Make your donations accordingly, EMPOWER PEACE spokespeople/press/orgs

I will no longer be making any donations to any group that supports staying in Iraq. This includes the Democratic Party or any press or advocacy group.


http://www.gsfp.org/
washingtonpost.com
For Some, a Loss in Iraq Turns Into Antiwar Activism Gold Star Families Band Together to 'Make People Care'
By Evelyn Nieves
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, February 22, 2005; Page A03
VACAVILLE, Calif. -- Five minutes after President Bush began his State of the Union address, Cindy Sheehan clicked off her television set. She would read the transcript, watch the salute to the parents of a Marine killed in Fallujah, chew over such words as "ultimate sacrifice" and "fight against tyranny" -- the next morning.

They call themselves Gold Star Families for Peace. Organized less than two months ago, it is part support group and part activist organization, with members united by grief and the belief that their loved ones died in a war that did not have to happen. They represent a small percentage of the families that have lost someone in Iraq -- 50 families out of more than 1,450.

They include Bill Mitchell of Atascadero, Calif., who lost his son, Mike, 25, in the same April 4 ambush that killed Casey Sheehan, and who also was unable to watch Bush's speech. And Celeste Zappala of Philadelphia, whose eldest son, Sherwood Baker, 30, a National Guardsman, was killed while on the search for weapons of mass destruction. She watched Bush's speech with the sound turned down, "trying to discern some truth amidst the choreography of clapping and fawning." Other Gold Star Families shared the same knot in their stomachs, the same sense of stunned disbelief. They worry that as the war verges on entering its third year, the public seems to be losing interest in it. When Sheehan tells people she lost a son in the war, she said, she is sometimes asked, "Which war?"

"It's like the American public can listen to the war news for five minutes, and then they can hear about Michael Jackson," she said. "We're trying really hard to bring it to the forefront, to make people care about what's going on there." Then, they say, they will go full steam ahead in speaking out against the war, together, in ones and twos, and with other peace groups. The most prominent member is Lila Lipscomb of Flint, Mich., who was featured in Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11." The film shows her encouraging her son, Michael Pederson, to join the Army for its career opportunities, only to end up grieving for him two weeks after the war in Iraq began. "I consider being in that movie such a blessing," she said, "because it has given me the opportunity to have an audience."

[walldude]

84. Wow Will, you are just getting beat up on this...

I see alot of suggestions here on how to get us out of Iraq, and I agree we need to get out. What I don't see here is anyone coming up with a way to convince the Bush Administration that we need to get out of Iraq. That to me is where the problem lies. We could come up with plans, we could convince every single American, we could have a timetable, none of that is going to do any good. As long as it is financially beneficial for the Administration and it's friends to stay we aren't getting out of anything. Remember.. they have a mandate :eyes: :puke:

[ultraist]

85. There are things we could do to put the pressure on

>HALT ALL SUPPORT INCLUDING DONATIONS TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Time for them to step up to the plate or they are FUCKED come the 06 races.

>PROTEST IN THE STREETS STARTING WITH THE MARCH 19 PROTESTS

>EMPOWER PEACE SPOKESPEOPLE/ORGS/JOURNALISTS TO GET THE WORD OUT AND BE OUR VOICE

It's due time OUR DEMOCRATIC LEADERS START REPRESENTING US!

What ELSE can we do? Why haven't we heard any of the "we cannot just pull out" crowd explain WHY we cannot pull out or offer some suggestions on what we can do to convince our DEMOCRATIC LEADERS TO FIGHT FOR US.

[Just Me]

87. I could not get through this courageous woman's letter,...

,...without choking up. :cry:

My brother whom I consider one of my closest friends will be going over to that nightmare. He already served in the first Gulf War. I am almost paralyzed with fear that this time, he will NOT manage to come back a whole person, if he returns at all.

My only son could be pulled into the neoCONs' determined path to another world war, as well, via some kind of mandatory service (which I am sure will NOT be called a "draft"). I do not believe I could manage the pain and loss as well as Mrs. Sheehan has,...I really think the loss of my only son would do me in.

Her point about our presence being THE CAUSE of the insurgency simply cannot be ignored/diminished/dismissed. Moreover, why wouldn't her statement that the Iraqi people can manage/handle their affairs and put their country back together be any more/less valid than the neoCONs' excuse that we have to stay there for purposes of stabilization (especially when we all KNOW that the neoCONS' real intention is to establish a permanent military presence).

A year ago, I contemplated what we should do mostly because we ruined that country and I believed we had an obligation to put it back together. But, I simply no longer believe that a US military presence is at all helpful; rather, that military presence is the primary source which is causing this conflict to drag on and on and on.

Now, I must advocate that we pull out our troops. Flood Iraqi businesses and Iraqi contractors with funds to rebuild their country. PLEAD with the UN and surrounding countries to assist the Iraqis in rebuilding their war-torn country and establishing a LEGITIMATE government.

Of course, the foregoing is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN because we have nothing but freakin' war-profiteers and greedy oil execs in charge of the "Divided States of America"!!!!

[cry baby]

88. One step in a plan to get us the hell outta there could be to

set up a "Iraqi training Iraqi" military and police plan. Isn't the main reason that we aren't coming home yet is that * says that we have to train Iraqi military and police so that they can protect their own country? We have trained some 40,000 already. Why can't they train their own from now on? Or if we leave and a civil war breaks out, there will be an opportunity for the UN and other countries to help bring peace (you know, the ones that won't go now because we are there). Let's leave the military some weapons, get them started training each other, and get the HELL out of there.

Maybe this suggestion doesn't solve every problem, but it's a start.

[cry baby]

91. Please you guys...In the really long time I lurked here and the months

I've tried to become part of the discussion, I have come to respect and admire each of the long time posters in this thread. All of you are honorable people in the highest regard. I believe each of you would give your lives for this country and that is the very pinacle of patriotism.

Please stop petty bickering and name calling. We are on the same side and we really need this debate to come up with substantive answers to what is happening.

Argue, absolutely, but argue with the respect for the other that each of you have earned.

I replied to myself, hoping everyone on this thread will understand that I am speaking of all of you.

[Swamp Rat]

92. Here you go Will Pitt:

This is a repeat of post #86 in case you missed it.
***

Some of us have family and friends there (me) and we want them home yesterday - I want an immediate withdrawal. In fact, I demand it.

You make a good point when addressing "how will we do it?" What will be the mechanism to make this event happen? I'm not so sure myself, but I have a couple of suggestions:

1. Organize a national sit-down strike - perhaps March 19th to take advantage of the momentum.

2. We organize the best writers here at DU (this is you - not me) to write short articles, varying from 1 paragraph to a full page, that narrates a "common sense." I suggest using a few quotes here and there from various philosophical and/or religious sources.

3. We create a database of these articles here at DU of small, ready to print .pdf files. The articles should consist of black text only and made to be cheaply and easily reproduced.

4. We distribute these articles at work, churches and schools.

5. We start today... right now. Let's take advantage of the time we have left until March 19th. We have momentum and strength in unity.

[KoKo]

101. Maybe you should go up there to where Will is still "waiting" and flag him

for his attention. You have some interesting thoughts there for activism. But Will is in some kind of funk up there waiting for a response from someone he's argued with and has lost track of his own thread. :shrug:

[katinmn]

110. and we pummel our legislators with phone calls

Call each of your senators and your rep in DC and leave the message every single day. Withdraw the troops NOW.

Takes less time than drinking a cup of coffee.

[Swamp Rat]

114. And we can do it RIGHT AT THIS VERY MOMENT!

I am.

:kick:

[katinmn]

116. I already called mine

I will do the same every day.

[understandinglife]

93. A few suggestions. And, I admired your response to Ms Sheehan.

I remain convinced that a largely American funded, 750,000+ Islamic and Kurdish peace-keeping, reconstruction group (with expertise in everything from hospital administration to road building to ....), deployed under UN authorization and oversight, with logistical support from US/NATO/Russia (and perhaps China), organized and operational in Iraq by 1 June 2005, followed by orderly withdrawal of ALL US forces and personnel from Iraq is both tractable and something that every Nation on the planet would likely support.

One way that could happen is for the President of the USA to send a letter to the Secretary General of the UN offering to support such a plan.

You, and many others, have listed all the reasons why the current President of the USA will not do that and why most folk in Congress are not prepared to make him do it.

OK. So here is how "We The People....." make it happen.

Pull out all the stops, get all the organizations on the just and legal side of this issue -- Truthout, MoveOn, TrueMajority, RawStory, VelvetRevolution...................all of them to coordinate a nation-wide work stoppage and school attendance boycott of at least 50 million Americans with the message being that "We The People...." are in charge.

Until the President sends the letter to the UN specifying something like what I've suggested above, the Nation comes to a halt.

No one gets on a train, an airplane, a bus.

No one buys gasoline.

No one goes to movies.

No one goes to Walmart. Etc.

During the time of the boycott, folk can turn their attention to cleaning their streets and parks, helping the homeless, and other civil service acts.

We bring the Nation to a halt -- peacefully.

Once we have the UN moving forward on the peace-keeping, "We The People...." can then turn our attention to the illegalities of the war and the torture of Iraqis and other matters and indict and prosecute those responsible. In doing so, we need to assert in a way not seen since the formation of America, that "We The People...." will hold responsible those whom we elect (and pay and provide wonderful benefits via our tax dollars) to do their jobs -- in a legal and ethical and intelligent manner.

Peace.

[ultraist]

97. You can forget about moveon. They are BACKpeddling

and not advocating for a pull out. There is an article on Common Dreams someone posted here today about this that quotes Eli as saying, our membership is breadth on its opinion on this' or something to that effect.

Check their website, there is NO anti war stuff on it.

[understandinglife]

100. I don't think "moveon" is the point I was attempting to make.

Thanks for the info.

Peace.

[ultraist]

102. I didn't say it was your point. I was simply noting moveon's regressing

They are not supporting a pull out.

[Sapphire Blue]

107. AN OPEN LETTER TO GEORGE BUSH - from Cindy Sheehan

From Casey's Peace Page...


AN OPEN LETTER TO GEORGE BUSH

November 4, 2004

Dear George,

You don’t mind if I call you George do you? When you sent me a letter offering your condolences on the death of my son, Spc. Casey Austin Sheehan, in the illegal and unjust war on Iraq, you called me Cindy, so I naturally assume we are on a first name basis.

George, it has been seven months today since your reckless and wanton foreign policies killed my son, my big boy, my hero, my best-friend: Casey. It has been seven months since your ignorant and arrogant lack of planning for the peace murdered my oldest child. It has been two days since your dishonest campaign stole another election…but you all were way more subtle this time than in 2000, weren’t you? You hardly had to get the Supreme Court of the United States involved at all this week.

You feel so proud of yourself for betraying the country again, don’t you? You think you are very clever because you pulled the wool over the eyes of some of the people again. You think that you have some mandate from God…that you can “spend your political capital” any way that you want. George you don’t care or even realize that 56,000,000 plus citizens of this country voted against you and your agenda. Still, you are going to continue your ruthless work of being a divider and not a uniter. George, in 2000 when you stole that election and the Democrats gave up, I gave up too. I had the most ironic thought of my life then: "Oh well, how much damage can he do in four years?" Well, now I know how much you have damaged my family, this country, and this world. If you think I am going to allow you another four years to do even more damage, then you truly are mistaken. I will fight for a true vote count and if that fails, your impeachment. Also, the impeachment of your Vice President. The only thing is, I'm not politically savvy, and I don't have a Karl Rove to plan my strategy, but I do have a big mouth and a righteous cause, which still mean something in this country, I hope.

All of this lying, fooling, and betraying must be “hard work” George. You really think you know what hard work is?

George, let me tell you what “hard work” really is.

Hard work is....


Continued @ http://www.angelfire.com/sk3/spkhntrca/Casey.html

[xray s]

113. There are two questions here

Q1. How do we "overcome Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Bolton, Cheney, Halliburton, Congress, Bechtel, ExxonMobil, global oil addiction, massive war profiteering, brain-dead media coverage and about 50 other things that stand between us and the withdrawal you so desperately desire.". That is a tall order, though I think exposing all of the above to the American people is a good start. I applaud you Will for all your efforts to do exactly that. It takes awhile, but eventually you can't fool all the people all the time.

Q2. How do we get out of Iraq. I don't know. I am sorry you want an answer, but I just don't know. I do know I have a son I don't want to die over there. I know other young men over there I do not want to die over there. Maybe concern for my son is a selfish concern, but it is what I do know. An Army recruiter called our house last week and asked to talk to him. I politely told him our son wasn't interested. I had a lot more I wanted to say, but I left it at that.

Bush and Cheney and all the rest are destroying Iraq and America. They are destroying our military. Recruitment is down. Reenlistment is down.

That is how we ultimately will get out. We won't give them our sons and daughters to kill in their war. I'll go to Canada if I have to, but they won't get him.

And then Bush will have to figure out how to get out, after we all say no. And that bastard is the one who should come up with the plan, and take the heat for it.

[JanMichael]

117. There are "wide, varied and multifaceted problems inherent in" continued..

...occupation Will.

I don't think that particular argument will set well with a mom that's lost her boy to Bush's insanity. Or with me.

At this point it's an "Acceptable" casualty game for the ones who fret too much about the unintended outcomes of a withdrawel.

There will be unintended outcomes with continued occupation.

Using a complexity argument on an issue like this is exactlely why Vietnam went on for so damned long.

"We'll lose face"

"The military will be weakened for years"

"Morale will crash"


Better sooner than later IMHO.

[WilliamPitt]

119. It seemed to set OK with her

given the emails I have received from her (which, no, I won't share).

[JanMichael]

125. Fine. I trust that you wouldn't lie. But my argument still stands.

So?

[ultraist]

128. She's OK with Will having his opinion or she agrees with his opinion?

Two very different things.

[JanMichael]

130. Good point.

It'll be interesting to find out.

[Emboldened Chimp]

121. How can we put up an exit plan when it is not our intention to leave?

We're building permanent bases in Iraq, presumably to replace our bases in Saudi Arabia. It is not the intention of this administration to ever leave. Now, you can make the moral argument that we must leave to stop the killing, which I heartily agree with. Then again, pulling out might result in a civil war. I think our presence there has prevented this so far, but once we leave it will be a blood bath. That much is evident. But I digress: it's difficult, to say the least, to come up with an exit plan when the intention was to set up a permanent military presence in the ME. This administration now is in the position to keep tabs on Iran, Syria and SA while sitting atop 11% of the world's oil reserves. We won't be leaving any time soon.

[Cha]

122. I don't know how they do it!

They are so strong and brave..I would fall into a complete mental collapse if my son were killed in that traitor's war.

That's a wonderous letter from Cindy Sheehan..her son would be very proud of his Mama.

[KG]

123. a nephew of mine is now in iraq. a marine.

so let me my make myself clear.

i don't want him to die for what ever deprave reason he was sent there.

or for whatever depraved reason he might be kept there.

'we broke it, we gotta fix it', et. al., are depraved reasons for not immediately withdrawing.

so, screw anybody that isn't clamoring for the IMEDIATE ending bloodshed and waste in iraq.

iraq for the iraqis, US out of iraq NOW, DAMMIT!

[ultraist]

127. New poll in my RED state of NC says citizens NOT PLEASED

with Bush's "exit plan." Even HIS OWN are getting fed up.

Poll finds N.C. residents wary of Bush exit strategy from Iraq

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/ncwire_news/story/2203187p-8584230c.html

The Associated Press
ELON, N.C. -- A majority of North Carolina residents say they doubt that President Bush has a clear plan for winding down the war in Iraq, a poll released Friday found.

People who say they question the war's prospects increased by nearly 7 percentage points since September to 56 percent of the military-heavy state's population, the poll by Elon University said.

Forty-three percent of those North Carolina residents surveyed also said the Pentagon should cut the number of troops in Iraq, while 37 percent said the United States should keep current troop levels.

The poll found that women were more likely than men to favor bringing home American forces. Non-white respondents were more likely than whites to favor troop reductions.

####

I wish the best for your nephew and for his safe return, SOON! Let him know we are all doing what we can and send him our love.