Seriously - What Makes America "The Greatest Nation In The World"?

[matcom]

ok. this is gonna be dicey so stay with me here.

We have all encountered the "Why do you hate America" and "America is the greatest nation in the world" (comebacks) when debating right wingers. The last time I was told this non-argument to a question I posed, I replied with, "you would be saying YOUR country was the greatest if you happened to be born in Ireland."

Let's face it. None of us had any control over WHERE we were born. Which gets me into a whole other "Nationalism" thing but that's for a seperate thread.

Of course the repuke didn't know what to say to that except the usual, "you liberals just hate 'Murica." :eyes:

Now, there are some great things about this country but there are some pretty shitty things as well. I have traveled to other parts of the world and there are some things i like better about other countries and some things i like better about the U.S. (most of it subjective btw)

Then, one has to start thinking. If the question posed is indeed true (and it very well may be), why are so many working so hard to change so much?

so, i have been sitting on this thought for a couple of days and thought i would pose the question here.

now, before we all "knee-jerk post" here, I am interested in OBJECTIVE reasoning as SUBJECTIVE arguments for or against don't really mean much. You can say, "because of the two beautiful oceans on our borders", and I can easily say, "nothing compares to the Carribean." (not much of an intellectual discussion there).

So, the question: "IS America the 'greatest nation in the world' and if so, WHY?"

part two (if anyone chooses): "If the above answer is no, does that make one "Un-American?" (just for fun) :)

[indepat]

1. We have made more billionaires than any country? Capitalism (corporatism)

reigns supreme? We as a nation are an image of God? We are the champions...of the world!

[Postman]

2. Big Guns.

If it weren't for the big guns, the US would be as significant as New Zealand.

[pnutchuck]

14. All Blacks rule!!!!!!!

[BiggJawn]

3. Because our school books told us so.

We had the BEST rocket scientists in the world (brought in practically with their Nazi Party armbands still on their sleeves)

We had the HIGHEST standard of living in the WORLD! Why, just this week, Gush Pfleghmball said OUR poor people were the best-off in the world, because they have COLOUR TEEEE-VEEEE!

And Murkans are the best-fed people in the world! Just go to any mall in the country and watch the little blubber-balls waddle by with a slice of Luca pizza in one hand and a giant slurpee in the other...

Our Armys SAVED THE WORLD back in the 40's! Haven't done so well since about 1951, but, eh....

And we have Freedom of Speech! Unless you're in a juice bar, making a joke about a "burning Bush", then you have to go to jail for 3 years...Don't have a print in your art galary with Bush against a background of nooses, either...


I gotta tell, ya, it just makes my nut-sack swell to almost BURSTING with PRIDE everyday when I read about how Bush has terra on the RUN and DEMOCRACY on the MARCH across the Middle East! (not)

[matcom]

4. so, i'll put your nut-sack down as "nay"?

[BiggJawn]

22. Hasn't burst yet....

[Cooley Hurd]

5. Nationalism is a plague on our society...

...especially when one ignores logic/truth and replaces it with unconditional love for the nation-state.

We're programmed to it, beginning with the forced "Pledge of Allegiance" on our very first day of school (and every subsequent day).

Nazis also thought Germany was the greatest nation:

[Lorien]

79. "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"

-Oscar Wilde

I always thought that Freeps love their nation as an infant loves it's mother; innocent of the truths about their parent, blindly loyal, and absolutely devoted. Dems love their country as an adult loves another adult; we see our country for what it is, and we love it enough that when it becomes abusive or self destructive, we strive to help it to change.

[bowens43]

6. well....

We are not the best educated
we are not the most free
we do not have the highest standard of living
we do not have the greatest life expectancy
we do not have the lowest infant mortality rate
we do not have the best health care system
we are not the safest
we do not have the lowest crime rate
we do not have the lowest murder rate
we are certainly not the most respected or loved nation
we are not the most honorable
we are not the most trusted
we are not the most generous

How ever we are the best consumers and polluters
We are the most arrogant
We are the best at waging war

Does this make me unAmerican? No.

I would love to see our country once again be what it once was. We were once respected and loved by the world. I want to see us return to our former glory.

[etherealtruth]

8. Touche

[ClintonTyree]

12. But god LOVES 'Murka..........................

he don't take to those othur backwoods countrys. The good ol' U S of A is his chosen country. My prezdent tol' me so! So you and yer LIEbral buddys can kiss my red whie and blue behind. god keeps blessin' 'Murka every day, and it IS TOO the gratest country in the hole wide world, so stop sayin' that!
We's gots the most boms. The country with'n the most boms WINS! God wanted us to have them there boms, so quit sayin' snarky stuff like we's a backworde country, or my red whie and blue ass is gonna' cummense kickin' yur commie BEhinds! Commie faguts!

[drdtroit]

65. You forgot:

we also have the largest identity crisis of any people on the planet.

[booksenkatz]

7. I thought about posting something to the effect that

the original intent of America -- freedom of religion, freedom to pursue your life pretty much unmolested, etc. -- the idea was a good one. However, considering the GENOCIDE that had to occur before the country even got started, poisons any righteous intent that the founders may have had.

I was always taught in school that America could do no wrong. As I grew older, I began to understand that we were NEVER the 100% "good guy" at any point in our history... ever. At least not that I could see. The good things we did, it seems like we had to be goaded into doing them, or we did them for our own benefit. I'm trying to think of something that our country did merely out of the goodness of our own heart, with no benefit for us whatsoever -- I can't think of anything, help me out here. Many of the principles that define our country are good ones, but when have we ever upheld them across the board, for everyone? Similarly, I love the Democratic platform, but lately it seems like so few Dems stand up for it! What good is a noble platform, or noble document like the Constitution/Bill of Rights, when no one enacts it, stands up for it, legislates in its behalf?

So my vote is that there is no "greatest nation in the world" anywhere. No country is perfect.

[LynnTheDem]

9. Tough one to explain...

As a citizen, I think my country is the "greatest" in the world.

But if I had to rate "greatest nations" from #1 and onwards, going by my own personal beliefs system, then I would not rate America as #1 at this time.

My own personal moral beliefs and values system is overwhelmingly opposed to wars of aggression. Invasion and occupation is the very worst crime any nation could ever do, in my opinion. There is nothing worse.

For that alone, I wouldn't...couldn't...rate America as #1 greatest nation in the world.

Other people don't feel as strongly against wars of aggression, so that wouldn't affect their "greatest nation" rating, but something else might that wouldn't affect mine.

I think what I mean is everyone will have their own rating system built into them and what constitutes "greatest" in tangible terms is going to be different for everyone.

[matcom]

10. so what your suggesting is

that there IS no OBJECTIVE reasoning/argument for or against the statement?

i should have stated maybe to exclude the Bush* regime and make the question more generalized?

what if we were to think about it up until 1999. would THAT make the question tougher or easier?

[LynnTheDem]

19. A totally unbiased for or against America being "the greatest nation"?

*excluding bush regime

Hmmm...lemme randomly argue with myself here a bit...

No, you can't separate the subjective and objective. What is "great"? Biggest mountain? For some it would be. So no there is no objective argument for or against. imo.

[ktowntennesseedem]

11. If the whole "superpower" thing appeals to you, then I guess it is.

But there are many definitions of "greatest," and thus an equal number of arguments for which nation is the greatest.

Personally doesn't matter to me either way, since no one is awarding points for first place anyway. Besides, being the greatest brings with it increased resposibility that most don't seem to care for. Easy to shout "we're no. 1!" but not so easy to act like it.

[pnutchuck]

13. I'm going with NO

I moved away just after 9/11, mostly because of a nervous breakdown after finding out one of my best friends was on the plane from Boston. I was also very disenchanted with my country after the fraudulent elections.

I had never really been out of the country except for Mexico, the Caribbean, and a few other places, but mostly as a tourist doing tourist things. The first place I ended up, not actually intending to become an ex pat, was Bali. Sure, it was 3rd World, but I fell in love instantly with the people. I ended extending my month long trip to 4 months, then selling everything I owned including my stocks to move there.

Why? The pace was much slower, and at first, this is what I needed to take that damned American time consciousness out of my head. But after a few months, I noticed that I hadn't watched a single minute of TV. I only used the internet once a week and I got all my news from International papers. I started to realize that these perspectives were nothing like the ones I was receiving in the states. I also noticed as I picked up the language, these people were HAPPY (Bali is 95% Hindu) and they didn't have anything Western. Sure they made trinkets for tourist, but it was mostly the expats and the Muslims who came over for work from Jakarta and Java that had, used or wore Western products.

The Balinese have a very strong sense of community, if one dies, all come. If one weds, all celebrate. The elderly, that still have family, are revered and respected for their wisdom. And it is only the elderly that can have a place in their church councils. I lived in the middle of a rice field, next to a temple, and every night I was lulled to sleep with the sounds of their chanting and music.

Yes, there were difficulties, but there are Western hospitals, products, cars, etc. I know this is probably subjective, and I probably haven't done a very good job conveying my objectiveness. However, I think separating the two proves very difficult if you truly love the place and the people.

I now live in Paris, and I hate it here so, I can be very objective about this place. Ok, hate is a strong word, and it's mostly the weather and the fact that I dislike cities that arouses this emotion. However, every citizen in France has medical care. It is based on a sliding scale so, the more money you have, the less the government pays. Only fair right?

Also, they have a strong sense of social justice. When the workers go on strike, the corporations or the government don't try to bully them or bring in scabs, they accept it as part of a democracy. Since I've been here, almost 2 yrs now, I've seen protests on my street alone, and that doesn't include the much larger ones on the Champs Elysee. They've protested everything from Iraq, to raising cigarette tax, to abortion (that was the most recent one and I think it's influenced by Bush's hard line stance) to transportation workers (that's going on now, but not on my street) to teachers. If you can find an injustice, they'll organize and protest it. The government allows for this, they don't try and stop, they're allowed to march down the middle of the street so long as they get their license ahead of time.

Education is another social right. Everyone is given the right to go to University after they finish their schooling if they pass their entry exams. I don't know how good the State Universities are, but hell it's better than nothing right?

Oh, and family values. Sure divorce happens here, but what I've found is more strangely popular, is that a lot French don't get married at all. They cohabitate, have children and are still recognized as a couple, a family, without ever having married in a church. Of course, there is marriage, but if you want to get married in a church, you still have to go down to the government building and get married there before it can be recognized. They also give you 2 choices of contracts to sign. One is that, should you divorce, everything is split 50/50. The other is that only what was brought in or built AFTER the marriage is divided.

Well, I'm going to stop there. I'm losing my train of thought because BBC is discussing resolutions in Africa right now.

edit: spell check

[xpat]

15. It doesn't matter where you are in the global

rankings olympics. What's important is what you are doing to improve you country. This applies to every country. Those who rest on their laurels are already dying.

[jmm]

16. because we say so

Seriously, the question is too subjective to ever get an objective answer. For every great school we have there are children in other nations testing higher than children here. For every great hospital and medical advance we have Cuba still has a lower infant mortality rate. We may have a great Constitution but we also have the Patriot Act.

In response to part two it doesn't make me un-American. I was born here and no repuke can take that away from me.

[Redstone]

17. Americans

are the reason I don't think I'd want to live anywhere else.

All politics aside.

Redstone

[LynnTheDem]

21. Have you lived a number of yearsin other countries though?

If you haven't, then that's subjective, not objective. But then I don't think it's possible to be objective about "greatest" anything because "greatest" itself is totally subjective. :D

[Redstone]

32. Of course it's subjective.

I only lived four months in another country and it damn near killed me (no hard feelings, it wasn't the country's fault, it was mine).

All I'm saying is that by and large, America is a pretty good place, problems notwithstanding, because Americans are by and large pretty good people.

I'm sure that other countries' people are by and large pretty good people as well (I am particularly fond of Canadians as a group).

I didn't say anything about "greatest" anything, because that's such a vague concept. Just thought it might be nice to put in a positive note.

Redstone

[LynnTheDem]

40. I agree with ya, just the OP is getting us to think of something on the

objective side. I don't think there is or can ever be such a critter, myself.

Your "by and large, America is a pretty good place, problems notwithstanding, because Americans are by and large pretty good people." I agree with absolutely.

Although I also believe it applies to the entire world of people and many other nations.

That's the nutshell though; people are people are people. Lotsa little differences, but we're all by and large pretty much the same. :)

[leesa]

52. I keep hearing that but I don't see it. Every time I travel outside of

the US I am impressed by the kindness I find. Don't find it here, just selfishness...me first.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

53. "Americans are by and large pretty good people."

They used to be pretty good people, but I think there's been a shift in the past few decades. Americans used to be citizens, and we had a civil society here. Now people are defined as 'consumers', and materialistic, uncivilized behaviour is acceptable, whereas before it was frowned upon.

Human nature is human nature, and that is not defined by race, ethnicity, or country if origin. There are good and bad people everywhere, and no one nationality or country is more virtuous or morally superior.

[Just Me]

66. I agree, Redstone. WE make America "great".

Of course, our "greatness" is reduced when we are being subject to deceit and manipulation by our leadership. America is no longer "we, the people" when a leadership is suppressing deliberative discourse and imposing intentional totalitarianism via manipulative propaganda.

America is not "America" when her people are prohibited from making informed choices.

[AG78]

18. I don't know how to answer that

without writing a book. There are too many variables involved. As you said, you can start a lengthy discussion about nationalism alone, which is a huge part of why people say this or that country is the greatest.

I guess it can depend on how your brain works. I have a little atlas travel book, and it has a few pages with maps of the world. One is a political map, with all the borders drawn on it. The other is a map of the physical world, and it shows just where the land masses are, rivers, mountains, etc. Depending on which map you indentify with, that could also go a long way in determining what country you think is the greatest.

There are good and bad things about the country. There is that Constitution, however it's only been roughly 40 years that everyone has had the chance to have what that Constitution declares.

The forces that are trying to change so much in this country have always been there. It's not something special about this current administration. Those forces are why it's only been 40 years of true "American freedom", whatever that is, if it even exists.

Then you can add in the global corporations that change any equation. They don't like borders. Yet they also use borders to their advantage.

It's a great question, but very complicated. I think about it constantly. But I can't even answer it to my own satisfaction. There are just so many ways you can formulate an answer.

[LynnTheDem]

24. But you also can't separate those maps.

A person who thinks "forest" is the greatest wouldn't call a nation that had beautiful forests "the greatest" if that nation would lock him up where he could never see the forest.

I don't think it's possible to objectively make up what a greatest nation would be; everyone would have a different "greatest".

[Sporadicus]

20. When I Was in 3rd Grade Our Pencils Were Patriotic

I recall that they sported the American flag with the Pledge of Allegiance in tiny script alongside it. On the other side - in a single strip running most of the pencil's length - was a phrase: 'God bless America - the best place on earth.'

In a moment of curiosity I asked my teacher if America was truly the best place on earth. She replied that it was *indeed* the best place on earth. I asked her if the people of, say, Switzerland, felt the same way (don't know why Switzerland; at that time I barely knew Switzerland from Swaziland). She said that perhaps they did, but they were wrong. I asked what made our country the greatest on earth, and she stated that our faith in God made it that way. After I inquired whether the people of Switzerland were all heathens, she declared an end to the dialogue.

Our brief discussion prodded me to consider that question in greater depth then and in years afterward. I compared the Potemkin Village façade of America's deep & abiding faith against reality; believe me, I had plenty of material with which to work.

About a year later JFK was assassinated and we began the descent into war in Vietnam. I had the benefit of some very savvy relatives a few years older than me who explained these events to the best of their understanding. I got lectures explaining CIA & state department involvement in the assassination of South Vietnam's Premier Diem and subsequent installation of a more compliant puppet regime, the story about the USS Maddox getting attacked by North Vietnamese gunboats being cut from whole cloth, along with the whole array of horror stories coming back from the troops on the ground.

As a result of these lectures I became cynical at an early age, but also more discerning about my information sources. I came to realize that - for all its claims of having God on its side - America was certainly no better than any other nation, and in some ways much worse. If our only claim to worldwide superiority lay in piety of its people, I found the United States sorely wanting.

It's hard to dispute claims that America was at or near the top of the heap among industrialized nations in key areas, but the empire built by the capitalists is a house of cards. Debt has been accumulating to the point that servicing the 'juice' on the loans will prove outside the realm of possibility. Other nations have seen the writing on the wall and are preparing to switch currencies to avoid holding piles of worthless dollars. Peak oil production virtually assures retraction - not expansion - in world economies.

All the rhetoric from religiosos about America's world dominance being due to God's blessings raining down upon us will seem especially ludicrous as the events just described unfold. I maintain that greed - one of the basest of human behaviors - was the prime mover in the building of the American Empire. Begun by rich white men who didn't want to pay their taxes, built with slave labor the fundies of the day attempted to justify Biblically, expanded through genocide against native peoples...I don't put much stock in speculation that Satan is running the show, but the fundies have got a lot of explaining to do. Greatest place on earth? If God is real, many Americans are in peril of being smited - hard - for sucking at the teat of luxury that has been poisoned with human misery.

[NewJeffCT]

23. well, we're still the richest per capita... but

But, the top 1% in this country have like 45% of the wealth and, on average, we do not have the highest standard of living anymore.

[LynnTheDem]

25. We also have less holiday time than any other "modern" nation.

The UK and Europe have 4 weeks mandatory hols for everyone. Canada has 2 weeks mandatory for I believe first 3 years, then mandatory 3 weeks after that.

Most Americans are lucky to get one week a year.

And as you say, richest per capita doesn't mean diddly; if Bill Gates posts on DU, then statistically every DUer is loaded.

[NewJeffCT]

27. Heck, even China gets more vacation time

They get at least a week for Chinese New Year, then another week for Labor Day and then yet another week for National Day. This is on top of regular vacation time, which is probably similar to here... but, at least 3 week long holidays.

And, here in the US we get excited about a 4 day Thanksgiving weekend.

[LynnTheDem]

31. yer kidding...

I didn't know that.

Geeez, the entire frigging world is taking time every year to have a frigging life... except us.

Bloody hell. No wonder we're the most pill-popping neurotic nation around.

[NewJeffCT]

33. No, I am not kidding

We hear about the factories in China kicking our ass - but, the whole country basically shuts down for at least a week for Chinese New Year (and, most likely more than a week)... then, they also get a week around International Labor Day (I think that's May 1) and Chinese National day (Oct. 1).

I think they also get a few other holidays off as well.

[Lorien]

77. Richest per capita-I think that's Switzerland. n/t

[leftofthedial]

26. rhetoric

Murka is number one

the bushturd is compassionate

the bushturd is a uniter

Iraq had WMD

Saddam was behind 9-11

social security is in crisis

high unemployment, low wages and huge tax cuts for the super rich are good for the Murkan worker

matcom, why do you hate us for our freedoms?

[samplegirl]

55. Thats America

Where Figures Lie & Liars figure

[Squeech]

28. Whose moral values?

The question of who's the greatest obviously depends on your choice of a rating system, which depends on standards of value.

Unsurprisingly, the party that parrots "We're #1!" also happens to value a bunch of shit that I think is at best irrelevant, at worst detrimental, to global human happiness and advancement. We have the world's biggest fortune (Bill Gates, still ahead of the Sultan of Brunei). We have the world's biggest corporation (Exxon stomps those pipsqueaks at British Petroleum and Royal Dutch Shell). We have the world's biggest military (American DOD spending exceeds the sum of the military spending of our ten closest competitors).

Um, I don't think these are good things.

[NewJeffCT]

29. The problem is...

We've been told we have the best health care in the world. Nobody believes you when you tell them the fact that we're really #37. After all, we've been told all our lives we have the best health care.

[ArkDem]

34. You are absolutely right! When the wealthy get sick they

go to Europe, or Canada for their care. Unfortunately, most of us can't do that.

[NewJeffCT]

38. well, many wealthy still go here

I'm pretty sure the US still has many of the world's best doctors. The problem is that you can't get access to them if you have no insurance, or even regular insurance.

[raccoon]

47. That's what bugs me the most

the fact that the US has no national health plan. Fewer and fewer employers offer group medical insurance to their employees. For that reason, I wish I'd been born a Canadian.

If a person is fortunate enough to be able to afford an individual medical plan, and doesn't have any health conditions that cause him to be denied insurance altogether, the insurance company can still attach riders, so that they aren't going to pay jack squat on certain conditions you may have already had.

[underpants]

30. GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Best? Yeah I think it is best and I have done some traveling too. My opinion obviously can't be objective.

America is a grand experiment
-a joining of capitalism and democracy that all the experts, at the time, said would never work
-always changing ever evolving
-add that we are basically working without a net here and that adds to the danger and the glory of accomplishment.

[matcom]

35. on your first point...

one could easily argue that the "experts" were correct ;)

capitalism is now corporatism no?

[underpants]

56. I still can't find the name of the court case

The one that established that corporations (already considered a legal entity=a person) could make contributions to political campaigns. Anyone?

That is where the snowball that we face today started rolling and like many "common sense" (OH COME ON!) "no brainers" (see privatization/deregulation and your phone/cable bills*) business based decisions framed by the right that is a snowball that really can survive in a hell (the direct backassward result of what was proposed).

* add to where privatization/deregulation has gotten us the ACTUAL cost of airline tickets (include subsidies and 0 net tax payments) and remember that the line of defense against what happened on 9/11 where minimum wage baggage/person screeners who were employed by the airlines (cost cutting) not the airports, the FAA, or any security organization. But the hijackers were responsible-I'm not blaming us for what they did just that we could have done more to prevent it.

** the actual beginning of the conservative movement as we know it today was Lewis Powell's 1971 letter to the US Chamber of Commerce which was used to frame debates in a economic/financial argument trumpeted by the already rich (See they have to know what they are talking about THEY ARE RICH!!).

"Until we improve your business acumen" -REM

The Powell letter

http://www.mediatransparency.org/stories/powellmanifesto.htm

The "Four Sisters"

http://hnn.us/articles/printfriendly/1244.html

[LynnTheDem]

37. Other nations have the same...

and are doing better than we are. And I've lived many years in other nations. But as you say, it's subjective.

The closest to "objective" I think it can get would be "standard of living", such as the UN's yearly list, and I don't think we've been #1 on that list for some time now, but even there it's subjective as to what one considers for standards.

[underpants]

58. 1993

I returned to the US after three years in the Army in Germany. We do have a marked advantage (difference) than what I saw in Europe but there other advantages that aren't just material. To this day I can't stand sitting in a car when I could be on foot or on a train. Living outside where you usually do provides a great perspective on both "worlds".

[LynnTheDem]

59. Oh yeah I hear you re Germany! We lived in the Hanau area for years,

hubby is military, and the TRAINS! Wonderful!!! And the walking yes, esp thru the old sections. *sigh*

Hubby misses the beer. : D

[neweurope]

63. Hello from Hanau :)

To think that in the US military here in Hanau was somebody like LynnTheDem and I missed her!

:hi:

------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[LynnTheDem]

69. Oh wow are you REALLY???! PLEASE GO TO TONY'S for me!!!

On the corner right before the bridge, between the bridge and the PX, and have for me;

Veal Scalopina mit Bratkartofln, Knoblauch Brot, und ein glas bitter lemon!!! Bitte! *slurp* :D

Oh man I'd KILL for a Tony's right now!!! :cry:

Yep we lived there in total I guess 9 years. I worked for a UK co, so my week was spent half in London, half in Frankfurt with some months down in Muenchen. We had an apt. first in Bad Orb. Gorgeous town. And then moved to a larger apt in Bad Soden-Salmuenster, and then a house in Maintal-Bishofsheim.

How long have you been there? Have you done lots of touring? You must do Czech Republic, we used to go at least 1/mth. And London of course...Spain, and Strasbourg for fresh bread & cheese and feed the swans. :)

Sheeesh we have our very own UN on this board, LOL!

[neweurope]

84. Well - I'm German, came to Hanau because of my former husband

and stayed because of the next guy *g* I don't like it here all that much, I'm more of a country person. And having horses we cannot travel as much as we'd like but of course once a year we have a big vacation plus I go to France once a year. Unlike you we try to seek out quiet places for vacations, though; last year we were in rural Ireland, next I'd like to go to Scotland. Sleep in my bus like always and preferably see no people and no traffic at all for some weeks :)

And I'll check out Tony's for you. Would you excuse me on that bitter lemon, though - may I have a red wine instead?

--------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[LynnTheDem]

86. Hanau isn't much, is it. But it's central.

We really stayed away from tourist crowds, altho we did do London often and that's always full of tourist crowds, lol! But Ireland, Scotland, Denmark. And Cornwall in England, that's gorgeous.

One of these days I'll find a place to put our photos online, we've got a decade of them, lol!

Red wine no problem. :D

[Enraged_Ape]

43. Because we get to work three shit jobs to feed our kids, instead of one

"Uniquely American, isn't it? That's terrific." -- President Complete Fucking Dumbshit.

[Rann]

36. That is easy

Our Liberty within our Republic

[matcom]

39. welcome to DU but 1 question....

is that WITH or WITHOUT things like the Patriot Act?

[LynnTheDem]

42. Even per the index of freedom from the conservative Heritage Foundation

we are not #1.

Why do republicans hate America? :D

[LynnTheDem]

41. But America is not the free-est nation in the world.

There are other nations with more liberties than America.

So how does our liberty make us the greatest when our liberty is less than other nations'?

[Lorien]

74. Did you read the Patriot Act?

other countries now have more "liberty" than we do.

[Coyote_Bandit]

44. My Irish Blood

feels obligated to defend Ireland even though I've never been there.

America the greatest nation on earth? Who cares? When I realized I likely would have to find work and relocate abroad in order to be self-supporting and use my skills and abilities I also decided that my loyalties rest with myself and my family before they rest with my country. As far as I am concerned my country has betrayed me.

[sidwill]

45. Well for starters

Despite all of our warts you can ask that question or be openly critical without getting arrested and tossed in jail.

I doubt very much that you could ask that very same question in a lot of countries without suffering some kind of repression.

[neweurope]

50. You can ask this question in Germany PLUS we have more

holidays and better medical care for all (just mentioning two things) - that must surely make Germany "greater" than the US? This "Freedom crap" ist just this - crap. Most countries are "great" if you compare them to Uganda or the like.

-------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[SoCalDem]

46. Group-think tends to engender myths that get passed down

Movies "created" America. Think about it..

Most of the "cinematic geniuses" were poor immigrants who came her out of sheer desperation. They were mostly persecuted Jewish men who saw nothing but misery in their homelands. They arrived here poor, but because they were talented, and had big ideas, they created a whole industry. How better to "prove your loyalty" to your new country and gain acceptance than to make movies extolling its virtues? of course they DID love this country because they got a chance to succeed.

Prior to the "movie age", people were isolated and most were not even literate, so the "mass idea" had not been born yet. People were rural, poor and clannish or they were poor immigrant and jammed into tenements in large cities.. there was no happy medium. The super rich were around too but they did not "mingle"..

Movies created the American myth, and continues to do so.

[spanone]

48. The 'Ideals' of America are great. The current 'residents' of WH are not.

The bush* administration has done more to denigrate the image of America worldwide than ALL the administrations before it. Where once we stood for great causes, we now stand for 'might is right'. Because we could blow up the civilized world if we took a notion to, does not make us a great nation, it makes us all the more dangerous.

[zippy890]

49. In order to be great

you have to be good.

What is the standard to be used here? By American standards, most would say yes, we are good. By global standards its not so clear - while America is still envied by other countries it is no longer admired.

It is a very different world now than it was 50, 100 years ago. All of us on this earth are inextricably tied to each other more than most Americans want to admit.

Should we care what other countries think?

You bet, or we will end up an isolated fortress unable to sustain our way of life.

Time to admit the 'American Dream' is dead-- a cruel hoax for so many people. There is so much potential here, though, in our diversity and resources to become a good country on this planet.

[Rapcw]

51. Beacuase we have the most WMD n/t

[samplegirl]

54. Justice and Liberty for all

except for its victims.

[iconoclastNYC]

57. The only thing i can think of is : Opportunity

Meaning, if you have a good business idea, you can raise capital and start a business.

But I'm not sure about how much harder that may be in Europe.

[Coyote_Bandit]

62. I Disagree

There are too many industries where the barriers to entry are simply too high for somebody to start a business. Barriers to compete in any given field cannot be measured simply in terms of capital - other barriers include legal restrictions and credentials, technology, a network of both suppliers and customers, creditworthiness and insurance.

It is very difficult for small and new business to compete with existing businesses due to differences in scale. This is less true in service industries. We are not a nation of shopkeepers because Mom and Pop simply cannot compete with Wally World. And we are not a nation of inventors and manufacturers because the ability to protect one's intellectual property is so complex and the potential for legal liability in manufacturing so is immense. These days those who have truly unique product ideas simply work for or sell those ideas to some big multi-national corporation.

How many ways are there really to serve a hamburger? responsibly invest another's savings? detail a car? landscape a yard? build a house?

Cartainly opportunity exists on a small scale and in local and niche markets. But only a very very small number of new businessess go beyond those bounds.

I agree that there is opportunity - but I recognize that it is limited - and becoming more so.

[SpaceBuddy008]

60. grrrreat! hamburgers!!

[LynnTheDem]

70. OK now that's a valid objective one.

I'm hungry...share? :D

[Lorien]

78. Except that we test far less for Mad Cow than other countries n/t

[dpbrown]

61. Weaponry and Consumer Spending, Debt, and Delusion

America No. 1?
America by the numbers
by Michael Ventura

02/03/05 "ICH" - - No concept lies more firmly embedded in our national character than the notion that the USA is "No. 1," "the greatest." Our broadcast media are, in essence, continuous advertisements for the brand name "America Is No. 1." Any office seeker saying otherwise would be committing political suicide. In fact, anyone saying otherwise will be labeled "un-American." We're an "empire," ain't we? Sure we are. An empire without a manufacturing base. An empire that must borrow $2 billion a day from its competitors in order to function. Yet the delusion is ineradicable. We're No. 1.
Well...this is the country you really live in:

* The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (the New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).

* The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).

* Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).

* "The International Adult Literacy Survey...found that Americans with less than nine years of education 'score worse than virtually all of the other countries'" (Jeremy Rifkin's superbly documented book The European Dream: How Europe's Vision of the Future Is Quietly Eclipsing the American Dream, p.78).

* Our workers are so ignorant and lack so many basic skills that American businesses spend $30 billion a year on remedial training (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004). No wonder they relocate elsewhere!

* "The European Union leads the U.S. in...the number of science and engineering graduates; public research and development (R&D) expenditures; and new capital raised" (The European Dream, p.70).

* "Europe surpassed the United States in the mid-1990s as the largest producer of scientific literature" (The European Dream, p.70).

* Nevertheless, Congress cut funds to the National Science Foundation. The agency will issue 1,000 fewer research grants this year (NYT, Dec. 21, 2004).

* Foreign applications to U.S. grad schools declined 28 percent last year. Foreign student enrollment on all levels fell for the first time in three decades, but increased greatly in Europe and China. Last year Chinese grad-school graduates in the U.S. dropped 56 percent, Indians 51 percent, South Koreans 28 percent (NYT, Dec. 21, 2004). We're not the place to be anymore.

* The World Health Organization "ranked the countries of the world in terms of overall health performance, and the U.S. ...37th." In the fairness of health care, we're 54th. "The irony is that the United States spends more per capita for health care than any other nation in the world" (The European Dream, pp.79-80). Pay more, get lots, lots less.

* "The U.S. and South Africa are the only two developed countries in the world that do not provide health care for all their citizens" (The European Dream, p.80). Excuse me, but since when is South Africa a "developed" country? Anyway, that's the company we're keeping.

* Lack of health insurance coverage causes 18,000 unnecessary American deaths a year. (That's six times the number of people killed on 9/11.) (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005.)

* "U.S. childhood poverty now ranks 22nd, or second to last, among the developed nations. Only Mexico scores lower" (The European Dream, p.81). Been to Mexico lately? Does it look "developed" to you? Yet it's the only "developed" country to score lower in childhood poverty.

* Twelve million American families--more than 10 percent of all U.S. households--"continue to struggle, and not always successfully, to feed themselves." Families that "had members who actually went hungry at some point last year" numbered 3.9 million (NYT, Nov. 22, 2004).

* The United States is 41st in the world in infant mortality. Cuba scores higher (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).

* Women are 70 percent more likely to die in childbirth in America than in Europe (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).

* The leading cause of death of pregnant women in this country is murder (CNN, Dec. 14, 2004).

* "Of the 20 most developed countries in the world, the U.S. was dead last in the growth rate of total compensation to its workforce in the 1980s.... In the 1990s, the U.S. average compensation growth rate grew only slightly, at an annual rate of about 0.1 percent" (The European Dream, p.39). Yet Americans work longer hours per year than any other industrialized country, and get less vacation time.

* "Sixty-one of the 140 biggest companies on the Global Fortune 500 rankings are European, while only 50 are U.S. companies" (The European Dream, p.66). "In a recent survey of the world's 50 best companies, conducted by Global Finance, all but one were European" (The European Dream, p.69).

* "Fourteen of the 20 largest commercial banks in the world today are European.... In the chemical industry, the European company BASF is the world's leader, and three of the top six players are European. In engineering and construction, three of the top five companies are European.... The two others are Japanese. Not a single American engineering and construction company is included among the world's top nine competitors. In food and consumer products, Nestlé and Unilever, two European giants, rank first and second, respectively, in the world. In the food and drugstore retail trade, two European companies...are first and second, and European companies make up five of the top ten. Only four U.S. companies are on the list" (The European Dream, p.68).

* The United States has lost 1.3 million jobs to China in the last decade (CNN, Jan. 12, 2005).

* U.S. employers eliminated 1 million jobs in 2004 (The Week, Jan. 14, 2005).

* Three million six hundred thousand Americans ran out of unemployment insurance last year; 1.8 million--one in five--unemployed workers are jobless for more than six months (NYT, Jan. 9, 2005).

* Japan, China, Taiwan, and South Korea hold 40 percent of our government debt. (That's why we talk nice to them.) "By helping keep mortgage rates from rising, China has come to play an enormous and little-noticed role in sustaining the American housing boom" (NYT, Dec. 4, 2004). Read that twice. We owe our housing boom to China, because they want us to keep buying all that stuff they manufacture.

* Sometime in the next 10 years Brazil will probably pass the U.S. as the world's largest agricultural producer. Brazil is now the world's largest exporter of chickens, orange juice, sugar, coffee, and tobacco. Last year, Brazil passed the U.S. as the world's largest beef producer. (Hear that, you poor deluded cowboys?) As a result, while we bear record trade deficits, Brazil boasts a $30 billion trade surplus (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).

* As of last June, the U.S. imported more food than it exported (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).

* Bush: 62,027,582 votes. Kerry: 59,026,003 votes. Number of eligible voters who didn't show up: 79,279,000 (NYT, Dec. 26, 2004).
That's more than a third. Way more. If more than a third of Iraqis don't show for their election, no country in the world will think that election legitimate.

* One-third of all U.S. children are born out of wedlock. One-half of all U.S. children will live in a one-parent house (CNN, Dec. 10, 2004).

* "Americans are now spending more money on gambling than on movies, videos, DVDs, music, and books combined" (The European Dream, p.28).

* "Nearly one out of four Americans that using violence to get what they want is acceptable" (The European Dream, p.32).

* Forty-three percent of Americans think torture is sometimes justified, according to a PEW Poll (Associated Press, Aug. 19, 2004).

* "Nearly 900,000 children were abused or neglected in 2002, the last year for which such data are available" (USA Today, Dec. 21, 2004).

* "The International Association of Chiefs of Police said that cuts by the administration in federal aid to local police agencies have left the nation more vulnerable than ever" (USA Today, Nov. 17, 2004).

No. 1? In most important categories we're not even in the Top 10 anymore. Not even close.

The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but weaponry, consumer spending, debt, and delusion.

Reprinted from the Austin Chronicle.
www.citypages.com/databank/26/1264/article12985.asp

[Cleita]

64. I think this phrase came into use after WWII.

It didn't mean that we had the most progressive social and domestic programs. What it did mean is that we had the biggest stick in the world and the most riches, but that's all it meant.

[journalist3072]

67. I'm sure I'll catch flack for this, but...

I'm not so sure at all that we are the greatest nation in the world. I love my country, but we have problems just like every other corner of the world.

We also talk about how we are some great democracy, and many people say our democracy is what makes us stand out from other countries, but I don't subscribe to that theory. This country has never atoned for its history of slavery, nor paid the debt it owes to people who have been discriminated against.

[LynnTheDem]

71. You shouldn't ever catch flack for that! To love something when you see

its flaws is to REALLY love something. :)

[journalist3072]

81. I agree, and thank you! eom

[raysr]

68. Nothing makes us

great anymore.

[Swamp Rat]

72. NO! ... and that makes me "Pro-America."

We are not perfect and have a have a long way to go to make America a "more perfect union." Criticism about governmental policy, etc. will not only help make our country better, but it is THE patriotic thing to do.

Just calling the USA the "greatest country in the world" negates our collective effort to strive for a better society. The "we're number one" attitude is fundamentally Un-American because it damages our reputation worldwide, and allows hubris and empty rhetoric to replace humility and hard work.

[maxsolomon]

73. because we invented rock & roll

our smash up of cultures; appalachians + africans = blues, jazz, then rock & roll.

that's the only thing we've done that was really really great, and it didn't have shit to do with our nationalist militarism.

[Lorien]

75. Once upon a time, it was our Constitution, Bill of Rights, Free

Press, and innovation that made us "the greatest nation on earth".Now that we have "the Patriot act", those documents mean much less than they once did, our press is now controlled by six corporations, so it is no longer free,and we've stopped innovating at home and now buy what others have developed overseas. I can't honestly say if we rank among the top five countries on earth anymore.

[against all enemies]

76. Even an idiot can become President. How many countries can say that.

[LynnTheDem]

82. LOL!!!!!

Priceless! :D

[welshTerrier2]

80. ideals versus actions

America was founded on some pretty lofty ideals ... we revere our Constitution and our Bill of Rights ... we revere the idea of giving each citizen a vote in deciding who will occupy the most powerful offices in the land ...

but with the greatest promise comes the greatest responsibility ... the wealth and power held in the U.S. was an irresistable beacon for the evil ones ... and they came and they saw and they conquered ... too many have taken their democracy for granted ... we have squandered the great promise of America ... and now we must wage twice the battle to recover our lost jewels ...

the American government, now controlled by greed, has waged a war OF, not ON, terrorism all over the world ... we assassinate, we corrupt, we exploit ...

Che Guevara said it well: "I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all - you live in the heart of the beast."
Che Guevara (1964)

and Paul Simon, in a song called "American Tune", said it even better:

Still, when I think of the
road we're traveling on
I wonder what's gone wrong
I can't help it, I wonder what's gone wrong

And I dreamed I was dying
I dreamed that my soul rose unexpectedly
And looking back down at me
Smiled reassuringly
And I dreamed I was flying
And high up above my eyes could clearly see
The Statue of Liberty
Sailing away to sea
And I dreamed I was flying

We come on the ship they call the Mayflower
We come on the ship that sailed the moon
We come in the a-ge's most uncertain hours
and sing an American tune
Oh, and it's alright, it's alright, it's alright
You can't be forever blessed

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

83. Lots of expensive false advertising. n/t

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

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