2 Baptist ladies deported from UAE for distributing Bible tracts.

[Bluebear]

Helpful tip to 72 year old American ladies: Don't be passing out tracts in Muslim countries where it is illegal at this particular moment in time. Just sayin'.

http://bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=20286

WAXAHACHIE, Texas (BP)--During 12 days of being detained in the United Arab Emirates for distributing Bibles, Marie Bush was given no promise for how quickly a higher court would hear the charge for engaging in illegal activity. Even so: "God had a purpose through this entire situation," Bush told Baptist Press in her first interview after being deported March 2 to return home to Waxahachie, Texas.

The 55-year-old Texan was detained Feb. 19 in Dubai where police observed her distributing Bibles at a large, international market. Quick to realize that various other members of the mission trip with Tom Cox World Ministries might never know what had happened to her, Bush rushed around the corner to get the attention of 72-year-old Vivian Gilmer of Myrtle Beach, S.C., another Southern Baptist who was a part of the group. Although the oil-rich nation on the coast of the Persian Gulf prohibits the distribution of religious tracts, Bush and other members of the team had been told that Bibles could be passed out as gifts from Americans.

Bush was interacting with shoppers in the international market's "Czech pavilion" when one of five policemen who had been following her shouted, "You come!" She turned around and looked at the man, questioning whether he meant her. Then she realized that the two policemen, along with three shrouded female officers with only their eyes exposed, had been following for some time. "What do you not understand about the word come?" Bush recalled the officer asking in clear English. Her immediate response was to place her hands over her heart and utter, "Oh, my mercy!"

"It flashed through my mind that I was fixing to disappear and that was what I was worried about. No one would know where I went," Bush recalled thinking. "I ran around the corner and they came with me and my first thought was I needed to tell Vivian." Looking back on the episode, she realized her action implicated another member of her party. Bush described to Baptist Press a series of "God things" that ordered their steps from the initial work in medical missions among rural villages of India to the layover in Dubai. "I told Vivian I think I'm being taken to jail and I apologized that I got her in trouble. But that was a God thing," she said.

[KG]

1. some people just don't get it.

:eyes:

[SpiralHawk]

2. "Those A-rabs are really asking for it. Let's nuke 'em for Christ"

-- The Republican Crusaders for the Absolute Truth (TM).

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

3. Victim fishing. (nt)

[Jacobin]

55. PRECISELY

Nailed it.

[Canuckistanian]

4. Is abject stupidity 'a God thing', too?

Hellooooo, calling all religious nutcase missionaries..... Arabic countries don't want Americans distributing Bibles in their countries!
See, they kinda have their OWN religion, and they're not interested in a new one.

[QC]

5. If a Western nation expelled Muslims for distributing Korans,

we would be outraged.

Goodness knows I'm no fan of the Baptists, but let's try to be a little consistent, please. Either freedom of speech and conscience are right or they're not.

[mondo joe]

6. I expect the western nations to be secular in government

I frankly don't know what to expect of the arab states.

And I don't particularly care about countries banning missionary work.

[Name removed]

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[barb162]

44. you got it! and salt and pepper to taste

[Bluebear]

7. Wait just a ding dong minute

Actually the best part of the story is her putting her hand over her heart and saying "Oh my mercy"!

I'm not saying I agree with expelling missionaries, I just am sayin' maybe it's not the most prudent thing to do at this point in time. I sure wouldn't want my Mom over there passing out Bibles, especially since they knew it was against the law. Why tempt fate?

[QC]

8. Sure, it's a foolhardy thing to do, and those who do it can live w/

the consequences.

My point is that whenever this topic comes up, and it comes up here often, many of us come very close to, or cross the line into, defending the concept of theocracy. Arguing that governments have to right to regulate speech and belief gets us into some very dangerous territory.

[Bluebear]

11. Not dangerous for me at all

People should be free, end of story. As to your Koran reference, I am betting that many in America would feel completely comfortable in forbidding visitors to pass out the Koran. :(

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. I think it is sad

that Christians can't distribute Bibles in a Muslim country, since the Bible is part of the Book that started with the Torah and ended with the Qur'an.

FYI, not all Muslim countries are intolerant. Morocco is an example; there's a very old Jewish community that lives there. There is a sacred music festival in Fez where Christians, Muslims, Jews, and even Hindus have come and song their songs, done their ceremonies. The Children of Abaraham choir who were at a recent festival included chldren from the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim tradition, all singing together about peace....utterly awesome!

[Bluebear]

13. I hear Iraq had a pretty strong Christian community...

They are fleeing left and right nowadays in the new 'free Iraq'. :(

[FreedomAngel82]

16. I remember hearing that

And Saddam let them worship in peace and didn't ever bother them. But yet these republicans don't care about that. They think facts are opinions now. :eyes:

[shadowknows69]

17. how about only distributing bibles

TO PEOPLE THAT FUCKING ASK FOR IT!!!. Stop shoving your religion down other people's throats. It's half the reason we have half the world wanting to kill us. Spirituality is supposed to be a personal quest. Let people find their own paths.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. oh, I agree with that

and my path does not believe in seeking out converts. I was thinking more of respect for the Bible and what it means to Muslims as part of the Book.

[drdon326]

21. How about freedom of religion ??

[shadowknows69]

22. when the people in the Arab world want true freedom of religion

then they'll stand up and take it. It's not ours to give.

[drdon326]

27. So you dont think freedom of religion and speech are human rights ??

[shadowknows69]

54. Yes, I do.

don't put words in my mouth. I was simply stating it is not the western world's job or right to steer people in one direction or another.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

23. all paths lead to God

and if you don't have a path because you don't believe in God, that is fine as well-who am I to judge another's way?

[The Stranger]

28. Please. If they were certain types of Muslims and doing that in the U.S.,

they'd be put in cages at Guantanamo forever. In fact, there's a good chance that they are already there. The notion that there is true freedom of religion or belief in the U.S. is nonsense.

[drdon326]

32. I am speechless.

no comment.

[The Stranger]

41. So are they.

But we simply cannot hear their comment because of what the government has done.

[knitter4democracy]

35. How is standing in a market, passing them out, coercive?

I've done it: you stand there quietly. People come up and see what you've got. You tell them what they are, and if they want, they take one, and if they don't they move on. No big deal.

How is that "shoving your religion down other people's throats"? If the Bible is illegal to own in that country, how can they find out more in their personal quest of faith? How can people know about a faith if it's been banned? I agree that going door to door is bad or that trying to get a faith taught in public schools is bad, but how is standing there and passing out a book horrible?

[FreedomAngel82]

15. Did they know it was against the law?

I'm sure they did, but why would they be over there in the first place if they knew it was against the law? Did they think nothing was going to happen to them? I mean: c'mon. You're in someone else's country you gotta play by their rules.

[Name removed]

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[anitar1]

71. They went their to get attention for themselves n/t

[Name removed]

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[karlrschneider]

9. Actually that is beside the point: what is determined to be illegal is.

I'm not attempting to justify their laws, but they are what they are...

[Warpy]

12. It's THEIR country

and if they find it obnoxious to have well meaning Christians distributing bibles, they have the right to object, to make it illegal, and to punish people who break the law.

It sounds like a few days in the pokey and a boot out of the country means they were dispensing justice with mercy.

Not every culture in the world is going to believe in the level of tolerance that includes fishing for converts. That's their right.

[QC]

18. OK, you believe that governments do have the right to regulate speech

and religious belief (or nonbelief). That's certainly your prerogative, but defending theocracy in other parts of the world makes it harder to protest against it here.

As someone pointed out above, the majority of Americans would probably have no objections to laws forbidding Muslims from proselytizing in the US. According to your reasoning, such laws would be justified. I happen to disagree.

[Warpy]

24. The last time I looked, this was the US

and we've set up a Bill of Rights that gives us freedoms that other people haven't thought to give themselves, let alone strangers with a mission to convert people to their religion. That's because this is OUR country, and we've had a say in how it's been run.

Perhaps in time they'll want to copy those things for themselves. For now, tolerating people of other faiths is enough for them. Allowing them to insult people by cramming what they see as an inferior religion down their throats is not.

Let's set some boundaries here, OK?

[QC]

29. OK, freedom of conscience is a human right for Americans.

For other people it's just optional, depending on whether their governments want them to have it or not. Gotcha.

[drdon326]

19. I agree......Frreedom of Religion is a human right.

I TOO am noooo fan of the baptists but I do believe in freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

[Warpy]

26. Freedom of conversion is NOT.

I've known folks from that part of the world, and they're quite tolerant of people of other faiths, especially faiths "of the book." They respect the human right to be wrong.

They draw the line at conversion.

There's a difference here.

[drdon326]

31. Freedom to ignore and maintain your own beliefs.

As i said , i am noooo fan of preaching or trying to convert people but i do believe in freedom of speech,belief and religion or lack thereof.

[knitter4democracy]

39. Interesting.

They are tolerant but only to a point. I'm no fundie, but how is prohibition of owning a Bible or quietly passing them out in a market tolerant? There is a difference in being tolerant and open-minded: they put up with mentions in the international press and movies, but God forbid anyone actually get a Bible out.

I have had the most interesting conversations with non-Christians, and I am glad that I have the freedom to even talk about my faith. I've given books to Mormons (turn-about is fair play), and I've passed out tracts in marketplaces (and worked in an orphanage, cleaned up flood mess, worked in more than one homeless shelter, and taught English as a foreign language--not all missionaries are rabid street screamers forcing their followers to drink the Kool-Aid). Wow--that's pretty bad.

[Canuckistanian]

49. True, but at least Arabic countries don't espouse religious freedom

They're theocracies. They have a state religion that defines their laws, customs and politics. Someone with a Bible threatens their whole way of life, in their minds.
We may not like it, but that's reality in a few Muslim countries. And UAE is one of those countries.

[drdon326]

51. WTF ?? At least ???

Given that Freedom of and from religion is a human right you should be DENOUNCING THEM.....not accepting it.

[Canuckistanian]

53. I'm not agreeing with it

I don't have to agree with something to accept it. But pounding my head against a brick wall isn't gonna help either.

It's just resignation, not tacit approval.

[FreedomAngel82]

14. The woman should know

when she's in someone else's country she has to follow their rules. If there is a law you can't pass out religious things that's the law and you must follow the consequences. Why did she think she could get away with it? Because of her being a Christian she can be above the law? And that she said it was a "gift" they wouldn't do anything to her? Duh!

[barb162]

45. excellent point

[Name removed]

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[Pastiche423]

25. Bush was in another country

She knew the law and she broke it.

This situation has to do w/obeying laws of a country, not w/free speech or theocracy.

[knitter4democracy]

33. As I have actually done this kind of thing . . .

I can say that, if you know you aren't allowed to spread your faith, you have to take the consequences and know them up front. Sure, it sounds all exciting back in the church pew, but it gets scary pretty quickly in real life.

Btw, I think she had every right to pass out Bibles. If it's against their law, then fine, lock her up. It's still her right to talk about her faith (even if you don't like her version of Christianity or her faith in general) and take the consequences as they fall.

I've gone on mission trips to Russia (before I converted to Eastern Orthodox Christianity--oddly enough, it was a mission trip for my kind of church that converted me), to Nicaragua, and to the Dominican Republic. In each one, we helped the people around us, had services we told people about but didn't force or coerce anyone into attending, and did a whole lot of listening. Not all missionaries are bad, and it is not a bad thing to tell others of your own personal faith.

[Bluebear]

34. "Not all missionaries are bad"....

I'm sure their heart was in the right place. I really feel more sorry for these ladies then anything. I looked up the "Cox World Ministry" or whatever they were participating in and see they paid $3000 to go on this trip. I am more than certain they thought they were doing the *right* thing, I just don't think it is a *smart* thing to do right now. While the 'ministry' is selling expensive Bible toting trips to people, ($$) the imprisonment is something the customer probably didn't bank on.

[knitter4democracy]

36. I'm sure they didn't know what they were getting into.

They hardly ever tell the truth on those kinds of trips. Personal experience talking, but I can say with some assurance that those ladies really thought they were doing what was right and had no idea what could happen.

[forgethell]

37. But...but

Islam is a tolerant religion.

[Cleita]

38. Good for them, I wish we could deport them too.

eom

[drdon326]

40. As I have stated , I am noooo fan of the baptists practices....

but do you believe freedom of religion is a human right ??

[Cleita]

43. I also believe freedom from religion is a right. How would you

like it if Muslims pushed copies of the Koran on you? You wouldn't. If anyone wants to obtain a Bible I'm sure they can just like I can get a copy of the Koran if I want to read it.

[QC]

47. Proselytizers pass through my neighborhood regularly.

In the past few months I've had two sets of Mormons, some Jehovah's Witnesses, and a few Baptists knock on my door. I just tell them I'm not interested but do appreciate them thinking of me and send them on their way. Simple enough.

I've had quite a few Muslim students over the years, and some have taken the time to tell me about their faith and what it means to them. I took it as an opportunity to gain a better understanding of someone's belief system.

In no case has my freedom from religion been compromised. We're not talking about forcible conversions here.

[knitter4democracy]

56. But they can't get a Bible--that's the point.

You can go into any bookstore (or almost any bookstore) and get a copy of the Koran or get books that help explain it or whatever. You can do that on any religion. In the UAE, you can't. That's why they were handing them out--it's been banned.

[onager]

42. This is a CAPITAL crime in Saudi Arabia

Attempting to convert someone from Islam...to ANY other religion...is called "apostasy." In the Sharia law, as I understand it, apostasy ranks right under murder and can earn the perpetrator a death sentence.

Not that the Saudis would actually kill a Xian for proselytizing. Bad P.R. and all. (Unless things have changed recently in Saudi Arabia, the crime of Highway Robbery is also still on the books and is punished by crucifixion.)

However, they do take conversion attempts very seriously. They know that many expats in Saudi Arabia get together for Xian services on Fridays, and usually turn a blind eye to it. Passing out Bibles is not something they would ignore, though.

And did someone upthread say that Muslims don't proselytize? They certainly do, though they're not nearly as obnoxious about it as most Xians and all Fundies.

While I lived in Saudi Arabia, a couple of Muslim co-workers tried to convert me at different times. Both used the approach that Islam is the "perfected religion" because it was revealed last, after Judaism and Xianity.

By that logic, $cientlology must be REALLY perfected. It was only invented...er, revealed...in the 1950's.

[Cleita]

46. If it's a capital offense then, there is more reason not to do so.

Sometimes you have to respect the laws of other countries even if you don't agree with them. Those ladies are lucky they didn't end up being stoned or worse. I blame their churches though for sending them into danger. I have also heard from religious folk who have worked among Muslims in Morocco, that it's almost impossible to convert a Muslim, so what is wrong with leaving them alone?

[Bluebear]

48. It doesn't look like any church sent them that's what gets me

http://tcwm.org/index.php?action=website-view&WebSiteID=174&WebPageID=3854

This 'ministry' slash travel tour company seems to offer several "missions" to exotic places for many thousands of dollars ("Mongolia is a country that needs the Gospel of Christ. All we need to reserve you a place on our mission trip to Mongolia is your down payment of $200.00.")
I am wondering if the unsuspecting tour participants are made aware of any potential laws before they plunk down their dough? Or do they just get advice like "be sure to tell the authorities your Bibles are only 'gifts'".

[Cleita]

50. It seems to me they should be responsible for their safety by

at least informing them of the laws.

[knitter4democracy]

57. That often doesn't happen.

Keep in mind who's running the thing. :eyes: Let's just say that they don't really believe in full disclosure.

My husband once went on a medical missions trip, and he was so pissed off by how much proselytizing went on that it was one of the reasons he decided to change churches. It's one thing to stand in a marketplace and hand out bibles, but it's another to try to talk someone into changing faiths after you've helped with their heart problem or fixed their teeth.

[Cleita]

65. This is why I can't stand faith based charities.

Sure they do a lot of good, but the strings attached are often barbed.

I don't mind churches putting together a charity to help their own, like a food pantry for the poorer members of the church or fund raisers for someone who has insurmountable medical bills, but in general I would wish that federal funds or any taxpayer's funds not be used.

We need good social programs that help everyone without strings attached. Also, overseas charities like the Red Cross should be secular IMHO.

[knitter4democracy]

66. I agree.

So many don't seem to understand that there's a power issue. If you're feeding someone, they feel obligated to listen, and they might feel obligated to do more. If you attach "behavior" requirements (like attending a prayer service wipes out any other problems, stuff like that), people will go along--but is it genuine?

That's my problem with that kind of outreach: are the conversions real? Yes, we need to worry about that, because otherwise, we're wasting our time and hurting people in the process. Everyone who admires Billy Graham does so because he reaches many thousands of people every service, but how many of those people flocking to the kneeling rail will still be Christians the next day, let alone the next week or year? I think that harms people more than helps.

Charities can be with any faith community, but they should have full disclosure on that and work freakin' hard to make sure that no one is turned away from help based on faith decisions and that the faith decisions and behavior are not tied to getting anything. If someone genuinely asks, then listen and pray, but otherwise, keep your mouth shut--trust me, it does more for the faith than preaching.

[Cleita]

70. I think this is what the good Samaritan parable is about.

It's about that you should help your fellow man even if he's not of your religion or your tribe. Also, the Samaritan, goes on his way after he makes sure the man is all right, without insisting that the man he saved become a Samaritan in gratitude.

[knitter4democracy]

74. Good point.

I always try to tell everyone that, today, the Good Samaritan would either be a young Al-Qaida recruit or a gay married couple with kids. Makes them think. ;)

Yes, I think we're more called to be Christ-like to everyone, especially those in need, than we are to be super-preachers.

[NV Whino]

52. Keep those goddamn bible pushers at home

And Texas, no less.
And Bush, no less.

No sympathy here for these idiots. Worship your own version of God and leave everybody else alone.

[IndianaGreen]

58. Send the Bible pushers to evangelize Atlantis

to the bottom of the sea!

[QC]

59. Can we send the Naderites with them?

This might be a workable solution to a number of problems!

[IndianaGreen]

60. Since they voted ABB in 2004, why the unnecessary insult?

:puke:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

61. Remember the two American women preaching in Afghanistan?

They got caught and were eventually "rescued" and became media darlings/whores once they got back here. Everyone believed they were trying to do good things, even though they didn't have the common sense to avoid going into Afghanistan, of all places, in order to convert people.

[JCMach1]

62. LOL,,,, I can imagine the scene at the Global Village when this

was going on...

These people were interfering with the first national religion of the UAE: SHOPPING!!!

The UAE bans giving out relious tracts for a good reason: religious conflict. Most religions practice openly here. There are even several evangelical Christian churches.

And no, Xians are not discriminated against here... more garbage from the Right Wing.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

63. Thanks for the inside scoop. People forget that not all Muslim countries

are like Saudi Arabia.

Is "Global Village" the name of the mall?

[Bridget Burke]

64. It looks as though "Global Village" is more of an Event than a Mall!

Here are some pictures:

http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/dsfglobalvillage04&page=all

The missionary ladies weren't risking danger at some ancient souk, trying to spread the word to the downtrodden poor. They were disrupting a big international shopping fair.

Until our DU'ers in Dubai check back in, I must say that it looks like a fine event. And a good place to shop--even though our miserable dollar might not go very far.

As far as "malls" go--nobody is allowed to proselytize at any mall in Houston.

[ultraist]

69. How ethnocentric

When in Rome...

These ladies should have informed themselves on the laws before they went in, guns blazing, being disrespectful of another countries' laws and culture.

[Beacho]

72. Besides human rights

There is the fundemental rights of sovereignty and self determinination.

We may not like it, but to jump on another nations laws, as repulsive as they may seem to us, is no justification for passing judgment. If the populace of the countries wish change, they will have it. To undermine their sovereignty is an assualt on their rights.

I know it's confusing, but these two concepts are just as important as individual rights