I'm rooting for the Lebanese

[liberalpragmatist]

I'm kind of annoyed with DU'ers siding with Syria on this. Occupation is wrong, no matter WHO is doing it. Syria SHOULD pull out and I'm really happy that the Lebanese people are rising up against the Syrian occupation.

For that matter, I'm also happy that Mubarak has agreed to some political reform. No matter how minor or how cosmetic, at least it's a step in the right direction and I hope it leads to greater reform.

I think Iraq is still a disaster - violence continues to surge and hundred of Iraqis and US soldiers are still being killed. But that doesn't mean I'm rooting for disaster. I sincerely hope that the violence in Iraq ends and they get a government they want.

For a million reasons I wish Kerry had won and I think a Kerry administration would have largely approached the situations in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and Israel/Palestine in a good way. I think Bush is getting far too much credit, particularly on Lebanon - the Iraq War has set back democracy in the region and been a boon for Al Qaeda. But nothing would make me happier than Bush genuinely adopting a humane foreign policy over the next 4 years. I highly doubt it's going to happen, but just b/c I hate Bush's presidency doesn't mean I wish harm on the world.

I think we have to be careful at DU that we don't start siding with dictators like Assad purely b/c Bush opposes him. Syria's occupation is wrong and it's a good thing for them to get out whether Bush is in the White House or not.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. I live in an area with many middle eastern shop owners

One of whom is Lebanese. Her husband is Syrian. WHile she would love to see Syria out of Lebanon, she would not love it at the expense of Sharon having greater effect over her nation.

[liberalpragmatist]

4. I agree - but that doesn't mean Syria shouldn't take the first step

Israel anyway pulled out years ago. That's not to say that Sharon won't go back in and we should be consistent - if Sharon dares reenter Lebanon we should take extremely harsh actions towards him such as cutting off all aid to Israel. But we can't plan our actions based on a thousand hypotheticals. Syria should pull out b/c it's right and if the US works with allies to promote Lebanese independence, it should be alright.

We should be also willing to take Hezbollah off the terrorist list - it's seen in Lebanon as a legitimate political group and it's the most powerful. We have to recognize that it's going to be powerful and we need to deal with it - if that's the representative of the nation's Shiite community, we have to deal with it.

[Just Me]

45. Your post demonstrates the nuances of the situation.

The OP fails to do so. If we support the Lebanese people, we must recognize that the issue isn't analogous to that of the U.S. occupation in Iraq (where there are over 120,000 troops present as a result of a unilateral, aggressive war). We should also demonstrate our confidence in the Lebanese people to do what they need to maintain some stability and end our interference in such matters (especially to the extent that we are merely operatives in stirring up division and violence).

[shoelace414]

I'll take Klinger's side.

[shoelace414]

2. Dupe Self delete

[tx_dem41]

3. Wow...there are two of us (at least)!

I was starting to wonder.

[leftynyc]

46. Make that three (at least)

Once again I think there are those that are letting their hatred of the chimp color their thinking.

[jdj]

5. we should pull out of Iraq first before rooting for Syria to pull out

that in itself is really weird.

Of course I am on the side of freedom, it just seems hypocritical of americans who support the Iraq war to be swooning over this.

[tx_dem41]

7. I'm not sure how you can say you are on the side of freedom...

when you want to bargain away the freedom of the Lebanese.

There are many of us that have been "swooning" for this for 15 years. Sad, so many seem ignorant of that point.

[TheWatcher]

8. While I don't disagree with the assessment about the need

for the troops to be out of Lebanon, I find it equally sad that that some can ignore the hypocrisy that we ourselves are gulty of the very same thing, aand day by day, on a more tragic scale, in terms of global stability.

We have a rather large occupying force in Iraq that should be removed.

Perhaps we should fix our own "democracy" before dictating to others how theirs should be run.

Or should we wait 15 years to condemn our own occupation?

[tx_dem41]

10. Where have I NOT condemned our own occupation?

I am getting frustrated with all the latecomers to an issue that has been around for 15+ years. Why you think two wrongs make a right is beyond me.

[TheWatcher]

13. First of all, I am not a latecomer.

Stop assuming that people are, especially those that AGREE with the assessment.

That being said, I stand by my own assessment that it's incredibly hypocritical for us to be demanding anything of the sort from anyone else at this point when we (And by "we", I mean our government), are engaged in the incredibly irresponible and destructive things we are doing in a country we never should have been in to begin with.

The troops in Labanon should be removed, and I am not disagreeing with that.


Unfortunately, the irony is that the loudest messenger of opposition to their being there happens to be a FAR more grave danger to the planet right now than the presence of said troops could ever hope to be.

This administration has NO moral athourity whatsoever.

[tx_dem41]

14. I'll take the moral authority of the Lebanese people then.

No problem with that I hope.

Sorry for assuming you were a latecomer.

[jdj]

12. I don't have an opinion.

All I know about it is that apparently alot of the cash to diamonds money changing that went on just pre-9/11 was done by Lebanese, apparently there was a person the diamond thugs around Sierra Leone,etc simply referred to as "the woman from Beirut" that did alot of the dealing before the planes hit and the assets got frozen. (See "Blood from Stones" by Doug Farah)

I was talking about repukes throwing this in our faces on tv like they have the happy iraqis and the orange urkrainians and then attributing this to the "Bush Doctrine" when we have yet to leave Iraq.


edit: oh, yeah, I forgot what the thugs called them, they referred to them generally as "bad lebanese", that was how they were known to the diamond dealears.

[tx_dem41]

15. Surely you're not willing to condemn the entire Lebanese population..

based on the personal accounts of diamond changers relating to a small majority of Lebanese? I haven't seen that done since...well....the invasion of Iraq.

[FlemingsGhost]

6. It's not a sporting event, you know.

The way some here at DU frame the world is ... well, so American.

[liberalpragmatist]

11. Who said it was a sporting event?

I think the Syrians should get out. Period. I don't think it really has much to do with the US. This is for the sake of the Lebanese people.

[stray cat]

9. A free and stable Lebanon would be great.

I hope the Lebanese pull it off. How can we be against the U.S as an occupyting force and support the occupation of other nations as long as it is a different coutry doing the occupying. Hopefully Syria and Israel will stay out of it and the lebanese can bring stability back to their country. I just hope it doesn't deteriorate back into a civil war.

[Stop_the_War]

16. All those interested in what's going on in Lebanon

should read this articles:

http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2005/03/2261.shtml
http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2005/03/2271.shtml
http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2005/03/2263.shtml

[cyberpj]

39. Excellent information - thank you for posting it. eom.

[Cuban_Liberal]

17. You mean there are two of us here?

:wow:

[tx_dem41]

20. Beat you to it, Cube!

Check out post #3...now there are at least three of us!

[ButterflyBlood]

37. I make 4

n/t

[Swamp Rat]

18. I'm all for a "free Lebanon."

The Syrians should get the hell out, and the Israelis and USA should stay the HELL out. Ideally, NO country should occupy or tell other countries what to do!

[tx_dem41]

19. Here, here Swamp Rat!

Spoken like a level-headed Coon-Ass. :)

[Swamp Rat]

22. Merci beaucoup!

:hi:

Should I get an oyster po-boy for dinner or go out to Bucktown for a seafood platter, or maybe Mother's for crawfish etouffe? :9

[tx_dem41]

23. Go with Mother's! My fave. n/t

[Canuckistanian]

21. More hypocrisy from the right

They cheer the Lebanese wanting to get rid of an occupier, yet want to kill Iraqis who want to get rid of an occupier.

[Stop_the_War]

24. True

The hypocrisy is astounding.

I do support the Lebanese people, but that doesn't mean I hate Syria. Lebanese and Syrians are both great peoples.

The neo-cons are using this event to further an agenda of another war against a sovereign Arab nation, Syria. No doubt if they succeed in conquering Syria and Iran (god forbid), then they will go right ahead and invade Lebanon either for themselves or for Ariel Sharon. The neo-cons do not care for any people on this planet but themselves. If the Lebanese were protesting a U.S.-backed government instead of a Syrian-backed government, then the U.S. would be in there with troops shooting and bombing people.

But hey, this could backfire on the neo-cons. They gave their support to Ukraine's Yushchenko. But guess what? Ukraine's new government is going to withdraw their troops from Iraq! What if this Lebanese movement starts up a progressive new government that is very opposed to U.S. imperialist interests (Lebanon was already opposed to it anyway)? The neo-cons will feel stupid, won't they? :P

[tx_dem41]

25. Who said anything on this thread about hating "Syrians"?

I do hate the Syrian government though for what they have done in Lebanon for the last 15 years. Your attempt to equate hating the occupation and hating Syrians is akin to Bush/Cheney stoking the fires to invade Iraq.

[frictionlessO]

28. Well make sure you hate our own quasi elected officials just as much!

I say that in a very gleeful and uplifting way.:)

[tx_dem41]

33. "Who says I don't?"

said tx_dem41 in a gleeful and uplifting manner. :-)

[frictionlessO]

36. LOL...

"certainly not me!" said fric in the most humble and gentle of ways.
:P

[Stop_the_War]

29. Did I say that anyone here was hating Syrians?

Sheesh. I was clearly stating that just because I support the Lebanese people in their movement, I don't want people to think I hate Syrians. I wasn't hiding any mixed messages directed at you or anyone else, sorry if it was misinterpreted that way.

[tx_dem41]

30. Sorry, if I misinterpreted as well. n/t

[Stop_the_War]

32. it's okay

:pals: :grouphug: :hug:

[ButterflyBlood]

38. I don't think anyone here hates Syrians

their government is a whole other matter. People who hate the chimp boy and his cabal don't hate Americans.

[frictionlessO]

26. Despite the caveats and addendums of our governments

hyprocrisy that most add (and rightfully so)... I actually think that most DUers do agree with you.

[liberalpragmatist]

27. I think so too

I do think the view presented by US media organizations is overly rosy and I think the pundits are giving far too much credit to Bush. I think the administration is at this point adopting a reactive posture towards events that are largely independent of US policy.

However, I think it's unmistakeable that some positive steps are occuring in the midde east and that's a good thing, whether it helps Bush politically or not.

I think most DU'ers DO agree with me and you and a few others who have posted on this thread. They're just not the loudest.

[frictionlessO]

34. Well I saw a post a few days back

that detailed how the worst thing going on in the ME right now is us.
Most Lebanese that I know (alright the two that I know) seem to laugh at the Bushco/neothug posteuring, most of the world is as well from what I can tell.

I want Syria out for the same reasons most do and more... Syria needs to give the neocons no additional reason to justify preemptive war.

Im also still not sold that the assination came from the top of Syrias government since it is so decisively factioned. Also given the history of other intelligence agencies the world over of pulling black ops like this, makes me think we wont know for a while who really did it.

Anyway you cut it though... yes. Syria Out!!

[bicentennial_baby]

31. As am I

Regardless of our government's rank hypocrisy on this issue, I fully support the sovereignty and independence of Lebanon. Syria has no business there, as we don't in Iraq.

[xpat]

44. What if the Lebanese want Syrians in their country?

Today's demo indicates that there is a lot of support for them staying. What do you do? It's their choice, not ours. Historically Syria seems to have helped stabilize the post-civil war situation and to have kept the Israelis at bay. The Lebanese may be happy with those results. They may just be worried about a new civil war and a new Israeli invasion if Syria leaves.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[porphyrian]

40. I like Lebanon Bologna.

It's just hard to find it anymore.

[Stop_the_War]

41. I'm rooting for THESE Lebanese

Protestors wave Lebanese flags in a central Beirut square, Lebanon, Tuesday March 8, 2005. Hundred of thousands pro-Syrian protesters gathered, chanting anti-American slogans and wildly waving Lebanon's flag in answer to a nationwide call by the militant Shiite Muslim Hezbollah group to demonstrate against foreign intervention and counter weeks of massive anti-Syrian rallies. (AP Photo/Saleh Rifai)

[ButterflyBlood]

42. Why do you support the Syrian occupation?

n/t

[Stop_the_War]

48. You should read this:

Q: The point driven home relentlessly by the Bush administration, and echoed in the U.S. press, is that Syria must get out of Lebanon. Why are 14 or 15,000 Syrian troops in Lebanon, and what do Lebanese in various communities think about their presence?

A: The remaining Syrian troops in Lebanon (out of a 45,000 contingent) were part of a peace keeping force that entered Lebanon at the REQUEST OF THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT, and ended the civil war in Lebanon. They have since 1990 been gradually diminished by a series of withdrawals. These withdrawals were determined and conducted by joint Lebanese and Syrian authorities, as they fit the needs of both countries. A vociferous minority has always opposed the presence of Syrian forces (making much less of a deal when ISRAEL OCCUPIED parts of Lebanon.) Today, this minority has seen its ranks swell by the joining of a few opportunists who were until YESTERDAY the beneficiaries of Syrian "largesse." They have seen the wagons are circling, and are hoping to live for another day. These are the same warlords, sectarian barons and opportunists who lead us once before to ruin. They have aligned themselves with the sincere "boy scouts," exploiting their grief and concerns. Since day one of his presidency, President Assad has committed himself to withdrawing the troops from Lebanon, and we have since seen a series of withdrawals. The remaining contingent's withdrawal was very much on the table, but it's timing is determined by the leaderships in Beirut and Damascus.



Q: To some of us, it looks like the U.S. is looking for excuses to produce "regime change" in Damascus, and the presence of Syrian troops in Lebanon is just one such excuse. What do you think?

A: I hate to agree here, but the inexplicable and ever increasing animosity towards Syria, is leading many to believe that the "decision to harm" has been taken in the US Administration. It is the US that has suspended ALL SECURITY cooperation as it pertains to the Iraqi theater, even against the advice of the top American brass, preferring to up the tempo on Hezballah (also) to do Israel's bidding. I recall that ONLY TWO YEARS ago, President Chirac of France (from the pulpit of the Lebanese Parliament) lauded the Syrian presence a very positive element, and said that Syrian troops should withdraw only when a comprehensive peace settlement is reached in the area. Basically, you are right, Syrian troops in Lebanon are a multi pronged excuse.



http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2005/03/2261.shtml
http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2005/03/2271.shtml
http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2005/03/2263.shtml

[Jim__]

43. Which Lebanese are you rooting for?

The Lebanese who demonstrated against Syrian occupation yesterday, or the Lebanese who are demonstrating in favor of it today. If the Lebanese hold a democratic vote and the victors opt to ask Syria to stay, do you think they have that right?

I don't understand all the forces that caused the recent Lebanese civil war. And, I don't know if Syria leaves, whether or not Lebanon is likely to return to civil war. Have the causes of the civil war been resolved? I think a new civil war would be worse than Syrian occupation.

The Middle East is a complex place. I don't think there are any simple answers to the problems. A holding action that brings a temporary halt to killing may be the best thing we can hope for.

I don't know what the Lebanese people want. My guess is that most of them want peace more than anything. I would hope that our country would work toward establishing and keeping that peace. Unfortunately, I don't see our government working in that direction.

[Avalux]

47. You know what I'm against?

I'm AGAINST Bushco sticking it's fingers where it shouldn't - they don't care about peace and liberation, they don't care if the Lebanese people are free. The neocons have one objective, control of the Middle East - they want unrest, they want war and chaos. They're banking on civil war.

This is not about siding with Syria or Lebanon. I do not agree with you that it's a good thing for Syria to get out whether * is in the WH or not - the situation is so much more complicated than that. Not all Lebanese are anti-Syria.

[tx_dem41]

49. I'll take the word of the UN agreement made by ALL parties over 15 years

ago. I just want everyone to honor their committments. The Syrians have not.

[LynnTheDem]

50. I side with the Lebanon majority; the SHIA.

And guess who they side with?

[mopinko]

51. all i know about this is

that the whole thing smells. "freedom on the march" out of the blue, making chimpy look good? i looked at the photos of the demonstrations, and wondered, does every one in lebanon have one of those big, beautiful, new flags, or is there some money and co-ordination behind this whole thing?