My rights matter, but yours don't. Does that make me a bad democrat?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

Every day on this board the question of what does or does not make someone a "good democrat" arises.

The question almost BEGS for the personal attacks that later get deleted since if someone answers:"YES YOU ARE A BAD DEMOCRAT" they have technically broken DU's rules to debate the point not the person.

So, my point is this. When it is YOUR rights we are talking about...how would YOU feel if they were up for negotiation?

What if YOU were the one who could not legally be afforded the rights afforded to married couples?

What if YOUR persuasion, religion, etc became the basis for you keeping your job?

What if YOUR right to decide with your doctor what is right to do with your medical condition became the subject of debate and to obtain a procedure you were forced to travel half way across the country?
If I argued against you having those civil rights, would that make me a bad democrat? (don't answer..the question was purely rhetorical and sarcastic)

[joeybee12]

1. No, it makes you a Republican!

[Turbineguy]

5. Ouch

That was below the belt. And definitely a serious personal attack.

Bailiff, whack his pee-pee

[leftofthedial]

86. that is EXACTLY what I immediately thought

[purduejake]

2. I believe their viewpoints define who they really are.

If they support the neo-con platform, would that make them democrats? The can claim that, but we don't have to believe it.

[mattclearing]

3. Against your last line, and my better judgment, I must respond:

What the hell are you talking about?

[Beaverhausen]

4. that thread just got locked which is too bad because some great points

were being made and the OP learned a lot I think.

[Cleita]

6. You are right.

I hope the next decade brings change.

Your job should be based on your ability and the responsibility you have to doing it, nothing else.

[Guaranteed]

7. You have to frame the issue correctly.

People don't understand the idea, even though you're using exactly the right word, when you call abortion a "right." You have to EXPLAIN why it's a right, and use analogies to illustrate.

The "Shut up, male!" stuff is just argumentative. It doesn't make any headway for us.

I'm just saying explain it. Obviously that guy was open to a discussion. It takes time to change the mindset, but you have to put it in, instead of just trying to intimidate people.

[JetCityLiberal]

10. As a male

I agree with the 'shut up male' when it comes to a woman and HER body.

JetCityLiberal

[Guaranteed]

13. The really funny thing is, "Shut up, male!" is just a tactless,

argumentative and totally ineffective way of saying virtually the same thing that I'm saying.

It's a civil liberties issue. A woman has the right to remove a fetus from her body at any time. The government can not force her to take it to term. Period.

Now, contrast that with, "Shut up, male! You don't know what you're even talking about! Stay out of my fucking business!!"

[JetCityLiberal]

22. Women have been told to shut up enough in this world

I have no problem with them telling men to shut up anymore bullgooseloony.

JetCityLiberal

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

51. thanks.. ;)

[Guaranteed]

53. Welp, doesn't look like it's working.

Explaining the concept might be a good idea.

[JetCityLiberal]

87. It is reality

not a concept.

JetCityLiberal

[Guaranteed]

91. Individual rights, like much of the rest of political theory,

are concepts.

They're ideas and philosophies that must be explained to be understood.

And religious freedom, social contracts, abortion rights- these are all concepts that must be understood to be implemented.

[Bouncy Ball]

101. I'm a woman and I don't agree

with saying "shut up female" or "shut up male."

There's no need for "shut up" if you've got some real discourse going on.

[Runcible Spoon]

14. yeah, maybe...

but realize how tiresome and trying it is to take the high road every time, to take the effort to educate people on the facts, without gaurantee that they will even listen...anti-choicers don't have to appeal to logic and level-headed rationalism, all they have to do is spout a few reactionary cheap shots that manipulate emotions and they effectively reach people...so we are constantly on the defensive, even here at what is supposedly a bastion for liberal and progressive ideals...it gets TIRING BullGoose!

[Guaranteed]

16. It's going to take work.

But the perspective is there. We have to just get the ideas out there.

Once we do, we win.

[Runcible Spoon]

8. well, teenage boys think they are immune...

especially middle/upper class white teenage boys raised in comfortable homes who have never had their rights threatened...but we'll see what happens when draft legislation is passed...I can say for myself that I will be there FOR YOU, teenage boys of the US, to stick up for YOUR RIGHTS! To prevent to government from controlling YOUR BODY!! And all I ask in return is you do the same for me, or at the very least refrain from spouting RW talking points and shilling for lawmakers who threaten my soverignty over myself....

[Ariana Celeste]

I hate to agree.

But I do. It may just take the draft being reinstated for many young men to understand what it means to lose rights.
Unfortunately... that would place my SO and my little brother at risk of being drafted, and both of them are, although not Democrats, very liberal boys who believe in peace, equality (equality for *everyone*), self-education, and understanding of differences.

Some cases merely require a little education. Most require personal experience.


(On edit: hate to agree, because as I said, my SO and little brother would be at risk, and they are 100% against war, discrimination, and everything this Administration stands for.)

[Runcible Spoon]

57. yes it's a hard pill to swallow..

and trust me I am NOT advocating the draft..there is great comfort and stability from living a sheltered, safe life, without fear of death or lack of food, shelter, and basic rights...at the same time we become complicit and do not think to impress upon the young generation how their parents and grandparents struggled to vote or to own property or to raise their children as they see fit, and just how tenuous those rights can be, how easily they can be taken by a corrupt government..if we can make them understand this, then they will learn that teh rights of ALL, not just the ones that pertain to them, are vital to a free society...

[Ariana Celeste]

62. Exactly

and I honestly believe that part of it is because my generation is one that has always had big budget movies, video games, and cable. History doesn't seem so realistic to my generation, unless we have a grandparent or parent who had it really hard and taught us about it.

I think that television and video games have really warped the mind and perspective of the majority of my generation.

I was fortunate, in that my grandmother taught me from an early age the hardships of living through the Depression. Also, in that my mother discouraged us from watching too much television.

And being that my brother and I were out of the mainstream (dressed in all black, listened to very dark music, all in all, completely different from all the other kids) we were taught not to trust authority when we began to get mistreated in school. Due to how quickly we found out that equal rights were not to be distributed fairly in the school, we turned into young liberals very quickly.

Unfortunately, most of the kids in my generation are so worried about being mainstream and accepted that they lack distinction and perspective.

My little brother is turning 18 this summer- and i am coaching him on how to become a Conscientious Objector. I see a lot of potential in my baby bro, :).

[mim]

79. Dressing in black

Ariana, did you and your brother choose to wear all black, or did your parents make you?

[Ariana Celeste]

84. We chose to.

My mother didn't approve at first, as I was young when I started to do that. She had a lot of trouble accepting that I suffered depression, and I think I made it harder for her by making it so visible.
My brother got it from me. I was dealing with depression due to numerous circumstances throughout all my teen years, and dressed in black to make a statement.

I think I may have unintentionally implied that our style of dress was the only thing that set us apart from the crowd. It wasn't. I shaved my head and was attracted to other girls, my brother had long pretty black hair and an attitude problem. Both of us suffered depression. Therefore, officials watched us constantly, we were harrassed by the mainstream kids, and a group of teachers liked to give us shit as well.

[Solly Mack]

9. Bad humans deny civil rights to others

Yes, that's right...I said BAD HUMAN. Piss poor excuse for a human being. Horrible human. Lacking in humanity. Void of human decency. A black hole of crippling emotional need who has to deny others just to feel good about themselves. A hate sponge.

Bad human. Bad person. Bad. Bad. Bad.

[Mandate My Ass]

11. Swing votes and testes are the only thing that matters

Oh and apple pie and baseball too, my bad.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. thanks for another one liner

I asked a question. The question did NOT pertain solely to that thread so please don't MAKE my thread a continuance of THAT thread.

People ask that question for a variety of issues pertaining to rights.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

42. I wrote what I wrote. n/t

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

yep...cloak it and pray it flies under the radar

;)

[Cuban_Liberal]

56. I didn't 'cloak' a damned thing.

It right there for the whole world to read.

[sendero]

75. I am against special rights for gays..

.... and if that makes me a bad Dem, I could give a rat's ass.

See, gays should have the same rights as everyone else, they don't need special rights. And I'm not going to let anyone frame the issue as "special rights".

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

19. Check out the two locked threads.

Then tell me you saw no flames.

[Runcible Spoon]

21. I meant on THIS thread..but I suppose

if some people are hell-bent on making it a flamefest it will become one...

[Cuban_Liberal]

28. Or hell bent on continuing one. n/t

[Runcible Spoon]

35. if the shoe fits, my friend....

I'm a bit disappointed...I follow your posts with interest, and I have defended you in cop-bashing threads before, chatted in the lounge...I really hope you don't blacklist people due to one thread..however I sense some real hostility...tell me what it would take to make us see eye to eye?

[Cuban_Liberal]

I don't ignore anyone.

Just to clarify, I'm not irritated with you.

Peace. :pals:

[Runcible Spoon]

43. and peace to you...eom

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

24. I am extrapolating on a larger point no matter how much you attempt

to claim I am not. Either address the points I made or ignore the thread, but please stop trying to get it locked by claiming it is about something it is not about.

[Cuban_Liberal]

31. I'll do what I damned well please, NSMA.

I'm not 'trying' to get it locked; the thread speaks for itself, in that regard.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. Thanks...let the sabre rattling continue void of actual rebuttals

to any greater point I might be making.

[Cuban_Liberal]

40. "My rights matter, but yours don't. Does that make me a bad democrat? "

Tel me that's not an engraved invitation to a continued flame fest. Yeah, riiiiiiight.

:eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. Any thoughts on the actual subject? I refuse to respond to any other

accusations you may make.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mandate My Ass]

25. ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT

ANTI-CHOICE KNEE-JERK THREADS ONLY PLEASE, OTHERWISE....ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT!!!

[quinnox]

23. It's too bad that the young man was attacked so viciously in that thread

All he was doing was throwing an opinion out there and trying to learn something, then all the attacks started. At least there were a few who were polite and tried to educate him as to their pont of view, but so many were just outright rude and offensive.

edit: that is all I have to say about this, I respect that NSMA wants to keep this thread on topic.

[LincolnMcGrath]

27. Rude and Offensive attacks against a man cub?

Here on DU? No Way! <sarcasm off>

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Oh that poor person advocated for banning a procedure

then learned he did not know about the procedure.
It may have turned into an opportunity to learn but not because he asked for info.
Be that as it may, that is not the subject of this thread.

[Ariana Celeste]

34. I responded without viciousness,

unfortunately, the thread was locked shortly after I posted a reply, and I'm afraid he probably missed it.

It's hard for some people not to get angry on that type of subject, though.

[Runcible Spoon]

39. yes, you were great...

and though I don't apologize for my anger, I apologize for not having the strength to stay calm and help people understand...now I'm going to try and find the strength to not hijack NSMA's thread! although nobody has responded to my ON-message post....

[Bunny]

37. He was outright rude and offensive, and got what he deserved.

I'll give him points for moving forward with his thinking, but given how he worded his original post (pre-edit), he could hardly have expeceted anything else. But he is not the subject of this thread, as NSMA said.

[Cuban_Liberal]

45. In the interest of accuracy, he was very civil until he was attacked.

Facts DO matter.

[Bunny]

54. Well,thanks for that fine lesson. I bow to your vastly superior

knowledge. Now, my turn: WORDS matter as well. His initial post was outlandish in its content. Outlandish in the extreme. I realize the boy is young, but I cannot imagine what else he could have expected when he began his post the way he did.

If you do not see that, we can't have any futher discussion with this, because we will never reach an agreement, and I'm tired of talking to people who won't see this.

[Mandate My Ass]

55. Actually he was extremely judgmental and abrasive

until his hypothesis was proven to be bunk and then he did all he could to backpedal and try and save face.

[Cuban_Liberal]

58. He was quite civil, until he was attacked.

I read the damned thread, Mandate My Ass.

:eyes:

[Mandate My Ass]

59. I read it too

Civilty, and the lack thereof, is obviously in the eye of the beholder in this case. I know of threads where you found much to object to while many others felt the discussion to be perfectly reasonable.


eyesroll eyesroll eyesroll...oooh that makes three. My opinion is therefore three times better....

[Cuban_Liberal]

61. Show me the link where he 'attacked' first

I'd be very interested in seeing it, since they all are time-stamped.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

64. Ohhhh, I'm wounded!

Cut to the quick and exsanguinating, even as I type. Please, spare me from further verbal rapiers, lest I perish!

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

106. he was quite ignorant to be posting, and he was rude on top of that.......

amazing that he should post a statement of support about legislation he didn't know jack-shit about. like he couldn't have spent 5 minutes researching it first? he argued against pregnant women because of something he read about silvia plath?? LOL!!! not too good with the critical thinking, is he? not yet a credit to the dem party.
i think he was looking for a flame fest. kids do stupid shit like that for attention.

[NC_Nurse]

29. Right on, NSMA!

People love to comment on things they know NOTHING about. Hence, the abortion thread earlier.

:yourock:

[bigtree]

32. I'd take a 'bad' Democrat

over a good republican, everytime.

badDemocrat :spank:

[Erika]

33. Core values show the differences

In my opinion, democrats are the soul and the conscience of America. We fight for basic rights and basic needs to lift all citizens out of poverty by seeking avenues to provide jobs, education, and health opportunities. We believe we ARE our brothers keeper. We believe in the philosophy of Christ's Golden Rule.

We believe in freedom that makes (made) this country unique. We believe in freedom of and from religion. We don't believe in a government ruled by religious factions usurping the right of the individual. We believe in a woman's freedom to choose. We are pro-life. We believe in education and family planning to promote wanted births. We don't believe the government should legislate and overrule personal decisions.

We believe that we were given the role of caring for our planet rather than the role of destroying it and its inhabitants.

Just my humble opinion.

[Bunny]

41. I am discouraged that so very many people want to quite

happily bestow second-class citizenship on so very many other people. I do not believe I'm being anti-anyone if I state that America is definitely the place to be a white, Christian, hetero male. All others - proceed at your own risk.

[JetCityLiberal]

46. Post of the day

:thumbsup:

Thanks Bunny.

JetCityLiberal

[Runcible Spoon]

50. yes there is a real power disparity in our culture...

as Gramsci said, hegemony is obtained "softly", and can only occur when the dominated are complicit in their domination..I think that is why some of us whose rights are being violated and threatened are characterized as hysterical even by our peers just because we're not being publicly stoned (yet)

[TreasonousBastard]

52. Huh? There's flamefests somewhere...

that I missed again?

OK, first, I don't give a rat's ass about being a "good" or "bad" Democrat. The national Democratic Party might as well be on the moon for all I see it here. We have county Democratic leaders who can't see beyond their own little fiefdoms unless it's to trash another county leader. None of them give a damn about anybody's rights except their own right to steal.

Now, as to the "my" rights vs. "your" rights--

I have been extremely lucky in my life that I have never been in a position where "my" rights have been trounced like so many others. When it comes to rights, aside from things like the Patriot Act that affect us all, I have always had to fight, if I fought at all, for someone else's.

Abortion, gay rights, Blacks, native Americans, immigrants, prison reform, capital punishment, conscientious objection... None of these affect me personally, or affect my life outwardly in any way at all.

But I'm out there with thousands, perhaps millions, in the same position.

And, btw, I do NOT agree fully with every position on the left. That would be foolish and mindless. I agree in principle with just about all of them, but can't drink the left Kool-Aid any more than the right.

[Erika]

60. The Democratic Party is stronger than ever

We've had a rebirth because of the skills of Dr. Dean and the utter failure of Bushco's administration.

The GOP offers a world of corporatism based on dog eat dog rules. The democrats offer a unified message that our effects must produce positive results for our citizens, our country, and the world's inhabitants.

[Heddi]

65. *claps* I always ask, in threads about choice, gay rights, etc

When are WHITE, HETEROSEXUAL MALES going to offer to give up some of THEIR rights?

Why is it always the women who need to take a back seat, to "chill out on the abortion thing" so that we can 'win some elections' or 'appeal to the middle base'? Why is EVERY issue regarding women (be it abortion, equal rights amendment, equal pay, etc) considered a "fringe issue" or "a wedge issue"?

Why is it always the homosexuals who need to take a back seat, to "chill out on the gay marriage thing" so that we can 'win some elections' or 'appeal to the middle base'? Why is EVERY issue regarding gays (be it marriage, equal rights, anti-discrimination laws, etc) considered a "fringe issue" or "a wedge issue"?

Why is it always that blacks, or hispanics, or asians, or native americans, et all the ones who need to take a back seat, to "chill out on the race thing" so that we can 'win some elections' or 'appeal to the middle base'? Why is EVERY issue regarding marginalized groups (be it equal pay, anti-discrmination, civil rights, etc) considered a "fringe issue" or "a wedge issue"?

When are STRAIGHT WHITE MEN going to stand up and say "you know, the ball has been in my court for A LONG TIME. How about this---I'll give up some of MY rights, or let MY rights take a back seat for a while so that some other group can maybe get something good for a chance"?

I never see that.

Instead, I have men on DU telling me that the choice between me and my doctor regarding a medical procedure is a 'wedge issue'. It's something that *WE* need to 'give an inch on' so that we can 'win some elections'. I've actually read on DU (several times, sadly) that we (meaning Democrats), should just go ahead and SUPPORT A BAN ON ABORTION...you know...because somehow, that'll be sticking it to the Republicans...or something.

MY ISSUES ARE NOT WEDGE ISSUES. THEY ARE NOT TO BE BACKSEATED. THEY ARE NOT TO BE IGNORED.

I'll happily forget about MY right to Choose when the fucking majority of WHITE FUCKING STRAIGHT MEN feel comfortable giving up at least ONE of their rights.

So, guys, what's it gonna be? What rights are YOU willing to lay on the table as easily as you're willing to barter mine?

:crickets chirping:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

66. That post is it's own thread

as soon a person hell bent on turning this thread into a flame war will get it locked and this masterful post will be for naught.

[Heddi]

73. Yeppers. I love the detractors

"Hi. I'm here to divert attention from the main issue. Because I don't agree with the main issue, and becaue I can't support my opinion with facts, I'm going to deride everyone who DOES agree with the main issue. I shall attack them on petty points, semantics, and hyperbole. Please, pardon me while I disrupt."

It's so predictable.

In the threads about Rape, you have the usual band of detractors...you know them...the "Well, I know a guy who was FALSELY ACCUSED OF RAPE and I don't see nobody on here defending HIM! Huh! Huh! See, women aren't immune to being sexist"

In the threads about race, you have the usual band of detractors...you know them as the "Well, How am *I* discriminating against ANYONE? Sho, I'm a white male, BUT I WAS BORN POOR AND THEREFORE, Affirmative Action is reverse Racisim because Michael Jordan is rich and his kids shouldn't rely on government programs to get into school so therefore, ergo, i.e. Affirmative Action is a racist tool and I don't wanna be the downtrodden white male anymore. Why don't nobody give ME a handup?"

In the threads about Abortion, you ALWAYS get (and I *so* love these) the "Well, My daddy was a botched abortion and therefore, if he had been aborted, I wouldn't be here to make insane and nonsensical posts, and that's why I'm opposed to abortion. Oh and if that doesn't cover it, I feel that since every Fetu..I mean "Precious little baybeeee" has it's own DNA< then it's a separate person and should be sacrosanct until its first breath (Unless it's black because it'll try some reverse racism shit on me and try to take away my white advantage through such racist programs as Affirmative Action and Free Lunch Programs). Did I mention that my mom almost aborted me? That's why I'm against abortion. (That and the fact all wimen are slutty slut-sluts)"

Ah. So predictable. It's what keeps me coming back to DU. It's like a surreal circus...instead of elephants dancing on balls, we have Right-Wingers that have nothing better to do with their time than make posts on a Left-LEaning board and think they got one over on us because they used the "Every Baby Has Its Own DNA. SO there." canard.

My husband keeps telling me I need to find more hobbies..."But dearest," I always say, "this one is SO entertaining."

[Zomby Woof]

68. This hetero white male

LOVES your post, and thinks that NONE OF US ARE FREE IF ONE OF US IS IN CHAINS.

Of course, the fact that my opinion for a white hetero male should be mainstream on DU - but doesn't seem so - is a sad comment on the current state of affairs, no?

Thanks Heddi, for a shot of sanity (along with NSMA's OP) in an otherwise dreary forum.

[Heddi]

71. You know, I live in Yakima

and I go to the community college and our mascot is the (guess...) YAKS! ha! I love it! I always think of DU when I go to school

:)

[Zomby Woof]

72. Woohoo!

Nursing school, IIRC? Excellent.

I can't believe how much mileage I have gotten out of a random joke I created nearly 2 years ago, lol.

I will be visiting Seattle and the area in July sometime. I am hoping for a DU gathering. :hi:

[Heddi]

74. Yuppers. Nursing school it is

and I only chose that profession so I could use phrases like "Weeping Wound", "Digital Rectal Stool Extraction" and "distended uterus" legally and without getting fines for profanity

:)

Today in school we learned about penile dysfunctions and there's this thing and I can't think of the name of it now but the pee-pee hole is on the TOP OF THE PENIS! Whoah! Talk about being the life of the party, right? ha ha ha.

Sad when I find humour in congenital defects :(

[Zomby Woof]

77. Well, we DO find humor in conservative insanity

And that is a congenital defect if there ever was one. So let yourself off the hook. Humor is the best way of confronting the horror and absurdity of life with a kind of contrasting relief.

All those terms you listed would make great names for bands. :-)

[Heddi]

80. I had to do a digital stool removal the other day

it (the stool) felt like little marbles. As I was digging away, I had fond memories of playing Jacks on the front porch...then my mind went to tiddlywinks..chutes and ladders....the whole time my finger's just a rootin' in the toot of an 87 year old man who hadn't had a BM in like 47 years.

Nursing is fun. Nothing like a job that requires you to do the dirtiest (as in 'gross') things to the dirtiest parts of the body on a regular basis.

i've yet to put in a catheter, though. That shall be the highlight of my nursing career....

[Zomby Woof]

81. Chutes and ladders... oh the pun you had...

Next up in GD: "Nurses Have It Easy, With Their Summer Homes, Exorbitant Salaries, and Cushy Jobs". :o

[Heddi]

83. Yeah. Completely. I can see it now

"see, once I went to the hospital ER with the WORST CASE OF POST NASAL DRIP. So these bitches made me sit in the ER for TWENTY FUCKING MINTUES> Now, mind you, I'm an upper-class white male with insurance and this was a community hospital. So while I'm sitting there, I see this bitch-ass nurse drinking a STARBUCKS COFFEE and I'm all like "Yo! Bitch! I got a fucking RUNNY FUCKING NOSE and you're telling me it's not an EMERGENCY. Fuck you and FUCK YOUR NURSE : PATIENT RATIOS, YOU FUCKING OVERPAID UNDERWORKED PEICE OF SHIT." and I walked out of there and tripped over some guy...I guess he was homeless or something...laying outside...right. LIke that's going to get him into the ER quicker than me. Oh and that fake blood he was spitting up---TOTALLY FUCKING FAKE. *I* have seen blood on television, and it's always dark red and ketchupy, not frothy, bright, and full of airbubbles.

Fucking nurses...."

ha!

[Fovea]

90. Here you are Hedda.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/34/M0183400.html

Now log off DU for a bit, and bone up on your anatomy...

[Mandate My Ass]

69. "MY ISSUES ARE NOT WEDGE ISSUES"

A-fucking-men.

[catzies]

88. It's so damn good I'm saying it again,

"MY ISSUES ARE NOT WEDGE ISSUES!"

[Ellen Forradalom]

92. So don't give me a wedgie!

:-)

[Ariana Celeste]

70. Very well spoken.

I agree. Wholeheartedly. Equal rights means equal rights- no one should be taking the back seat.

[Misunderestimator]

98. Bravo!

:thumbsup:

[Sapphire Blue]

76. "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

- Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Zomby Woof]

78. Letter from Birmingham Jail... timeless

Welcome to DU. :hi:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

85. It's a shame some people are hell-bent on making your post a flamefest

to detract from the real issue.

[Fovea]

89. I have already been fired for my religion at least once.

And been in more than one knock down drag out fight.

Oh, it's rhetorical question?

Not for me.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

93. Really? Fired for your religion?

What happened?

[Fovea]

94. A company i worked for

a small programming shop with a specialized market app.
A few weeks after they hired me, they mentioned that they all went to promise keepers meetings, and did I want to as well?

When I said no thanks, my entire relationship with them turned around, and I was let go a month later, after I informed them the design they wanted me to implement was not going to work. But the real reason I could not convince them, is that I did not join in the Xtain mystic misogyny of the company structure, I won't insult Christians by association.

I think it took them nearly a decade to make it work.
And I was well quit of them, and went on to bigger things.

[hfojvt]

95. I think it is more of a POV thing.

You share your POV and I will share mine, or maybe it is analysis. This is why I agree/disagree with you. This is what I have seen or experienced, or read about and studied.
What concerns me is the 100%-ers. Any error or lack of vision or understanding of the accepted dogma is enough to earn a label - you are a freeper, a moran, a red-state hick, a bigot, and misogynist. It is like people are defending their religion by shouting "heretic" at anyone who disagrees.
As far as what you wrote about MY rights. It seems like I have none of that anyway.
1) As a single person I do not have the rights and priveleges that married couples do - is that fair?
2) As a liberal LTE writer in a red state, I never know when my political persuasions may endanger my job.
3) As a person without health insurance (okay I got insurance about 8 months ago, but I still see things through the eyes of the uninsured) I have very few options when it comes to medical procedures.
To some extent when you focus on your problems, it is a de-facto argument against my rights. A focus on abortion rights is a focus away from a basic right to health care. A focus on obtaining the privileges of marriage for more couples is a focus away from the way the system is stacked against single people. A focus on black men's difficulties in finding a good job or finding any job, is a focus away from the problems of a white man. If I try to point out that white men have their troubles too, is that wrong? Why can't we provide a decent job for everyone who works hard. Is that too much to ask?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

96. A couple responses

1) As a single person I do not have the rights and privileges that married couples do - is that fair?

Not accurate since you COULD get married and enjoy those rights (assuming you are heterosexual)


2) As a liberal LTE writer in a red state, I never know when my political persuasions may endanger my job.

A perfect example of a right being threatened and all the more reason to argue for everyone's rights, since you never know when it's your own that will be tossed next.

3) As a person without health insurance (okay I got insurance about 8 months ago, but I still see things through the eyes of the uninsured) I have very few options when it comes to medical procedures.

Again, all the more reason not to interfere with anyone else's.

To some extent when you focus on your problems, it is a de-facto argument against my rights.

How so? I disagree.

A focus on abortion rights is a focus away from a basic right to health care.

Nope. That's stretching it unless anyone is jockeying for basic health care to be made illegal

A focus on obtaining the privileges of marriage for more couples is a focus away from the way the system is stacked against single people.

Again not so. That you are single means you're screwed whether straight or gay.

A focus on black men's difficulties in finding a good job or finding any job, is a focus away from the problems of a white man. If I try to point out that white men have their troubles too, is that wrong? Why can't we provide a decent job for everyone who works hard. Is that too much to ask?

Not really since the white man's problem in getting a job is solely a matter of economics not his skin color. But I do concede the point that divisions among race play into the hands of economic interests by keeping the people at the bottom at each other's throats.

[hfojvt]

97. That is wrong from the beginning

It is painfully obvious to me that I cannot get married any more than I can flap my arms and fly to the moon. That there is no legal barrier to me doing so does not make it possible in a practical sense.
My analogy would be that married couples have ice cream with chocolate syrup, and gay couples have ice cream, but are upset that they are legally denied chocolate syrup. To someone with an empty bowl, that seems like a minor problem. You wish you had chocolate syrup. I wish I had ice cream. As Shari Motro wrote in the NY Times:
"Research consistently shows that unmarried Americans are on average poorer, sicker and sadder than their married counterparts. Yet they are denied perks given to married couples who, in many cases, neither need nor deserve them. Though gay couples certainly lose out as well, singles of any preference pay a triple price for not finding love: they don't enjoy the solace and support of a life partner; they don't profit from the economies of scale that come from pooling resources with a mate; and they effectively subsidize spousal benefits that they themselves can't take advantage of."
Of course, it is not the government's fault if I cannot find a mate, yet in the sense that it is the government which gives those perks to married couples and asks me to pay (my share) for them, then I see that as a problem.
What I said about economizing is that there is not a large and/or powerful group agitating to help my problems. I am expected as a good Democrat to join the fight to grant chocolate syrup to gay couples, but doing something about my share of the bill is not even in most of the country's imagination.

Similarly, I would say that although no one is jockeying for basic health care to be made illegal, that nothing is being done about the fact that so many do not have and cannot afford basic health care amounts to the same thing for all practical purposes. The barriers are there even if they are not barriers of law, but barriers of economics.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

102. Um....there's over 1100 rights that married people have that gay unions

don't. That's not chocolate syrup.

I don't know your circumstances, but I do know that unless you are in prison (and hell even people in prison can get married from behind bars) that if you are straight..you CAN get married...nobody supplied us with the mail order spouse either.

[Misunderestimator]

104. Fine, apparently you advocate for stripping married couples of those ...

rights... I'm all for that. If I have no rights to visit my partner in a hospital, neither should a husband have that right with his spouse. If my social security investment goes back to the government when I die, so should that husband's at his death... no matter if he is supporting a wife and children at the time.

I suppose you also advocate for single people not paying taxes that support any social or educational or health care programs for children?

The flippant chocolate syrup comment, by the way, doesn't make your case. Single straight people are in the same boat as single gay people. The difference is that you have the option if you meet someone you care about to marry them and protect them with federal benefits. So whether or not you exercise your option to those rights, they are there for you if you need them to sustain and support a person you love.

[hfojvt]

108. a total stripping of rights is not really necessary

a simple recognition that the system is unfair to singles and compassion for that fact and some small steps to remedy it. It does not have to be all or nothing.
Yes, I do get tired of supporting other people's kids too, although that does not need to be an all or nothing thing either. I think maybe a parent should have to pay the same fine as a dog owner when their kids run wild, let me call the "kid catcher" when I see one of those little $1000 tax deductions throwing things at my dogs which are in my yard.
I apologize for the flippancy, but I am only batting ideas around in the air, not necessarily making a "serious" argument. A friendly discussion should be more like a volleyball game than a war. If I serve one up that gets spiked back in my face, which I may have done with the chocolate syrup analogy, then that is all part of the game.
To some extent, since I do not have a dog in this race, I feel an intellectual indifference to the issue. If I was gay and unattractive instead of straight and unattractive, I might feel the same way.
You seem to imply that I am not married because I do not love, when the situation is that I am not married because I am not loved. So the 1100 benefits of marriage are not available to me any more than the 1,000,000 benefits of having a partner, even one that you cannot legally marry, are not available to me either. Yes, it was flippant since love is more like oxygen than it is like ice cream, but at least I get to help pay for others.

[Misunderestimator]

109. Interesting... a "kid-catcher" I might go for that...

As for the other matter, it is not about attractiveness alone, as I know plenty of "unattractive" people who have found love. If you are alone, and sad about that, I am sorry, but it still does not solve the inequity. Either the same marital benefits for all, or at least the same access to the same rights, or no marital benefits for anyone. Pretty simple actually. I don't see how else it could be remedied. Allowing individually drawn-up contracts to pass ones social security benefits to anyone you decide? Allowing individually drawn-up contracts to allow visitation by anyone you designate. Absolutely... This would be the only equitable solution.

[Swamp Rat]

99. HAHAHA!!!! Funny, sarcastic title for this thread.

:D

I'm not laughing at the serious point you are making in this thread, but instead I'm thinking about the all the other posts - the totality of the petty points, dissonant tones, and elastic logic... :)

[Misunderestimator]

100. Really excellent way of putting things...

What if it was YOUR rights that people are discussing doing away with that might result in YOUR death. The plainly dogmatic and predictable responses supporting removing those rights, would turn quickly into righteous indignation out of the very same mouths, if the tables were turned. Never ceases to amaze me how passionately some men want to rob us of our rights.

[jonnyblitz]

103. right on NSMA!

I wish I would have come upon this thread before all the posts were deleted...but your original post is RIGHT THE FUCK ON! :thumbsup:

[bloom]

105. kick

:kick:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

107. KICK

:kick:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

110. Fine then I'll kick this thread back up

[Kathy in Cambridge]

111. Me 2

:kick: