"With God on Our Side"

[McKenzie]

I don't know about you but evangelists scare the shit out of me

I have just watched a documentary titled "With God on Our Side". As most of you probably know, the documentary covers the rise of religous evangelism (for religous read Christian) in the US and how it interfaces with politics in your country. I knew evangelism was a strong force in US society but, until watching the documentary, I had no idea how powerful, and pervasive, evangelism actually was on the other side of the pond.

I listened to nutters such as Falwell and I listened to the febrile fervour of Billy Graham. Dangerous people...really dangerous... I watched the audiences go glassy eyed and it scared the fuck out of me. I also noted how Kennedy's election was greeted with hostility by the evangelists because he was Catholic. The latter spoke volumes about religous prejudice in the US and added to my fears about the agenda of evangelists.

Watching a single documentary does not equip anyone to comment with authority on any given subject. Nevertheless,I know a fair bit about the religous right in the US even though "With God on Our Side" contained much that was new to me. And, I know there is a scam element to evangelism but some of these zealots actually seem to believe in this bullshit.

I am not exaggerating nor am I using rhetoric to embellish this post. I say evangelists scare the shit out of me because I cannot even contemplate religion influencing European politics in the way it does in the US. I live in a secular society, one that values human dignity without using religion as a reference point to justify such values. Living in a secular society has obviously shaped my world view, but I don't think living in a secular society has made me callous or uncaring; quite the opposite. Human life is a precious thing and religion is not necessary as a moral compass to prevent human life from being cheapened or relegated to a position of being subservient to the state, as many nutter evangelists seem to suggest. We have the European Convention on Human Rights over here which is a manifesto for protecting the individual against the state. That wonderful document grew out of a secular society, although it does provide for tolerance of religous belief.

There is much to admire in your country. That notwithstanding, I am really glad that I don't live in the US. Evangelism scares the shit out of me...if it rears its ugly head over here I'll be manning the barricades...these people are poisonous, self righteous and intolerant. I have no argument with quiet faith...I have quite a few arguments with evangalism although it's impossible to argue with people who think their belief system equals truth. The biggest barrier to discovering the truth is to assume one knows it already, the corollary to which is a refusal to consider other ideas...in other words the antithesis of "progressive" which is what DU is all about.

I don't know about you but the evangelist movement scares the shit out of me.

BTW, please do not read this post as bashing Christians in general.

[seabeyond]

1. it is for real. i see it on a daily basis

with the normal people walking the street. i hear them say and live it. for whatever reason i was put in an evangilitical fundamentalist world 5 years ago. lol lol . i had not a clue. since last srping i have had more adults, and children talking to me about rapture. i problem in politics, doesnt matter, more interested in rapture. bush lieing stealing thieving, doesnt matter, we all sin. who are the christians who are not. the minister on the pulpit calling kerry a murder and bush sent to god. people being told they dont vote for bush, jesus will know

but no one believes me...........it is out there, it is our world, for real

[Agnomen]

13. Look at the bright side

when they get raptured we (the left behind) will get all their stuff.

[seabeyond]

16. including their mess they are purposely making

to help the process along. you know they do feel all that is happening is ok, cause it is just helping god along. have heard this said by some

[Hobarticus]

2. When fascism comes to America...

...it'll be wrapped in the flag and quoting Scripture.

These kooks have always scared me. Now Ralph Reed wants to be run for office in Georgia.

Sweet Jesus, help us all.

[independentchristian]

15. When???

It's already here, duh.

Fascism adopts the rhetoric of the largest religion in the country and uses it to get votes and maintain power. No doubt it also penetrate the "perceived" leadership of the religion as well.

Tell me, why can Pat Roberston and Jerry Falwell get on television any time that they want to, and "evangelicals" who are not sympathetic to the fascists running this country generally cannot?

Because fascism controls the media. It's already here.

[donheld]

51. You are right

and looking around the country i do believe i see it everywhere. independentchristian is right it's already here.

[MnFats]

3. If Christians would just concentrate on what Jesus said and did...

we'd be ok.


"The gap between creed and conduct is greatest among the Christians."
-Mohandas K. Ghandi

[Placebo]

4. I saw that documentary too...

and it was pretty frightening. I have no problem with people being extremely religious, but when your religion starts to overlap with your politics and you start thinking things like, oh, I don't know, "Jesus put Bush in office", or, "9/11 happened because Jesus wanted to punish the US", I think those are signs of mental illness.

[paineinthearse]

5. Dylan's lyrics

For younger members who may not be familiar with this piece by His Bobness.

Source: http://bobdylan.com/songs/withgod.html



Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.

Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.

[BeTheChange]

9. Dylan also wrote - Aint no man righteous

When a man he serves the Lord, it makes his life worthwhile.
It don't matter 'bout his position, it don't matter 'bout his lifestyle.
Talk about perfection, I ain't never seen none
And there ain't no man righteous, no not one.

Sometimes the devil likes to drive you from the neighborhood.
He'll even work his ways through those whose intentions are good.
Some like to worship on the moon, others are worshipping the sun
And there ain't no man righteous, no not one.

Look around, ya see so many social hypocrites
Like to make rules for others while they do just the opposite.

You can't get to glory by the raising and the lowering of no flag.
Put your goodness next to God's and it comes out like a filthy rag.
In a city of darkness there's no need of the sun
And there ain't no man righteous, no not one.

Done so many evil things in the name of love, it's a crying shame
I never did see no fire that could put out a flame.

Pull your hat down, baby, pull the wool down over your eyes,
Keep a-talking, baby, 'til you run right out of alibis.
Someday you'll account for all the deeds that you done.
Well, there ain't no man righteous, no not one.

God got the power, man has got his vanity,
Man gotta choose before God can set him free.
Don't you know there's nothing new that's under the sun?
Well, there ain't no man righteous, no not one.

When I'm gone don't wonder where I be.
Just say that I trusted in God and that Christ was in me.
Say He defeated the devil, He was God's chosen Son
And that there ain't no man righteous, no not one.
-Bob Dylan

Dylan was a Christian that was baffled by the mega churches of his day. But still.. he believed in God.

[MnFats]

14. "Dylan was.?.." .. "he believed?? He's still around, man!

just an oversight , i'm sure but we can still refer to Dylan in the present tense.

or did I miss something?

[BeTheChange]

17. Is..

Was and is.. heh.

Sorry about that :)

[MnFats]

18. just screwin' around. no offense intended. Welcome to DU n/t

[BeTheChange]

22. It must have been residual trauma

From when I went to see him at the Memorial Auditorium a couple years back :) Cant understand a word he's saying, but dont think twice, its alright.. I mean, it's Bob.

[paineinthearse]

26. I'm holding tickets to Boston and Foxwoods........

woo hoo!

[mr blur]

6. I must say I feel the same way

but I would imagine you'd be hard put to find someone on DU who doesn't. Blair may be a liar and a sleazebag but I'm glad to think that if he started rambling on about God telling him to invade anywhere then it wouldn't just be the Daily Mirror that laughed him into resignation.

[Tux]

7. They are nuts

They promote any stupid idea as Biblical when the paragraphs are taken out of context of the books they are in. Yes, Bible does have a context like everything else. I could prove a Biblical reason to have geneticly engineered super monkeys if I had one.

I say we rewrite the Bible by removing the Torah, remove Romans and Revelations, and kep to what Jesus did. Oh wait....http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=pv4a8CyAla&isbn=0807077143&itm=1

[mermaid]

12. Beat Me To It

As a Unitarian Universalist, I was going to recommend The Jefferson Bible.

[independentchristian]

21. Anyone who believes a word that comes out of...

...Bush's mouth is "nuts."

That's what it's all about. They don't "trust Bush" because of their "religion." They trust him because they believe the same media that you all do. The media says Bush is a "born again Christian," and both "you" and the Christians believe it.

Both of you have been had, duh. No freaking "Moonie" is a Christian, and if you overlook that fact the only reason you choose to overlook it is because you want to becaue you are not a Christian and you don't think anyone should believe in it.

Christians believe the same foolishness that they see in the news as atheists and agnostics believe. If you think Bush and the GOP are out to advance "Christianity," then you are insane.

Now, I have a question. Why remove the first 5 books of the bible, Romans, and Revelations?

I'm curious to see your answer.

[FreedomAngel82]

37. Not all of us

do. Some of us Christians out there don't fall for his nonsense. :)

[VTMechEngr]

48. Paul's letters do not belong. He never knew they would be read widely...

If he had, he would have used greater care in his wording, perhaps leaving behind his prejudices of the day.

Timothy is a travesty of incorrect understanding. Many take this literally and ban women from being ministers, but the reality was that Paul wanted Timothy to crack down on his Church, not because women are below men, but because many women flocked to Christianity because it was tolerant of them, and this was becoming scandalous. This advice was not meant for anything outside this situation.

Case in point, Paul also instructed Timothy to drink wine to help his stomach, if this so, why say you do not drink for God? Or can Baptists already show that they are hypocritical in their literalism; using this letter to push women down, but also recognizing that the wine was just to counteract the bad water of Timothy's region.

[FreedomAngel82]

36. Speaking of Revelations

some Biblical scholars will tell you the book was very close to not making it into the final Bible we all know today. Why? Because it sounds so crazy. There are also a lot of other books left out. Like a book Mary Magdelene wrote (probably because she was a woman).

[BeTheChange]

46. I was listening the the commentary on Fear and Loathing this weekend..

In commemoration of the good Doctor. HST said that there were two books he wished he had written and one was Revelations. The producter, or director.. some incidental woman who is prompting Hunter from going of on a tangent.. asks him if he means its an great book to read to understand the thought process of George Bush. Hunter pauses for a minute and talks about how its all coming true. She asked what advice he had for the younger generation and all he had to say was, you poor bastards.

I don't think Im some crazy fundamentalist. I don't go to Potter's House, or Prestonwood or support the ministries of Falwell and Benny Hinn. However, I do believe that there are amazing signs coming to pass right now. It doesn't matter if they were created by an off his rocker fire and brimstone pResident or if this is divine prophesy being fullfilled. Either way, it's bad news.

I think people would be surprised at how many Christians really aren't hell bent on bringing forth the rapture and who really believe we should be stewards of the earth. If you really know Christ you try to do good, not slit your own throat.

[mermaid]

8. Evangelism Doesn't Scare Me...EVANGELICALS Do!!

As in the saying "God save me from your followers!!"

[DoNotRefill]

10. Gott Mit Uns...

take a close look at WWII German army beltbuckles, and you'll see where that kind of thing leads....

[bpilgrim]

29. Nazi Belt Buckel -------------------------> IMAGE

http://images.globalfreepress.com

peace

[AZCat]

11. Was this based on the book of the same name?

I read that a few years ago - it was by a professor from Rice University (I don't remember his name).

Very scary stuff, IMHO.

[IndianaGreen]

19. Gott mit uns

"God is with us," read the inscription in the belt buckle worn by the German army.

Who is going to liberate America from our own Taliban?

[usregimechange]

20. Why do you hate Christians!

:P

[Frederik]

23. I think the scariest thing

is how it seems engineered somehow, like it's a form of experiment in social control which has been a couple of decades in the making. I can only comment as an offshore observer myself, but that's the impression I get. And if that's correct, then it's brilliant (in a wicked, Nazi sort of way). People walking around waiting for the rapture are going to let their rulers get away with more or less anything, I imagine.

Truly the 'opium of the people'.

[FreedomAngel82]

38. It does seem that way

And the poor souls who are brainwashed. Some of them are far too deep with the "rapture" stuff. I myself, as a Christian, am not as into the rapture stuff myself. Nobody knows how things work really with the Universe. Do we know the people who wrote the book were really doing it from God? Or what? People like Falwell and Robertson and Dobson are the one's who really scare me. All their "leaders" who KNOW what they're doing is wrong and don't care.

[saltpoint]

24. Left-wing Christians in this country & Canada and --

-- Europe need to kick a few butts.

I would ask them to band together and do a "schism" number on the Chinos (Christians In Name Only).

Leave them holding their wieners in the rain and babbling their Paulist / Leviticus hate speech.

I want Leftist Christians to enjoin real Christians to the teachings of peace and dignity for every person. Name the new Church, declare yourselves the REAL Church, and tell anybody who doesn't like it -- especially fundamentalist cretin assholes -- to hit the road.

[RevCheesehead]

27. We're trying, Crusoe, we're trying.

The problem is that for so long, the religious left was focused on social gospel, but omitted biblical teaching. I see the two as inseparable.

During the 60's and 70's, the evangelicals began growing, and the mainline protestants began declining. Those in leadership said, "oh, they'll be back, because we're doing the right thing." But as church became less and less about spiritual formation, and more about social action, people began asking "why do I need to go to church?"

Meanwhile, the evangelicals kept hammering at biblical authority. They began to grow, as people came, hungry for knowledge and "truth." Some within the movement recognized political opportunity, and ran with it.

Jerry Falwell didn't happen overnight. It was a slow rise to his platform of hate, promulgated on "That Old-Time Religion." The Moral Majority was a means of uniting the political movement.

And in the meantime, Christian leftists remained silent. Now our churches are virtually empty, and we look for business models on how to "grow" our churches. All these methods point to a conservative agenda. Scary, isn't it?

[saltpoint]

30. Well, say a press conference is held with certified --

-- Baptist minister Bill Moyers, former CBS newsman Walter Cronkite, the Rev. Jesse Jackson, etc.-- and they just issue a statement declaring that fundamentalists are no longer part of Christianity, that effective immediately and from this point forward, Christiantiy will sail under the banner of The New Christian Church / Third Millenium -- or whatever they ant to call it.

And further, that anybody who holds a Paulist extreme view, or who digs up idiotic passages from Leviticus is decidedly unChristian and will be declared heretical to the teachings of Jesus of Galilee....

Just dump 'em in the ditch and let 'em bawl.

[realisticphish]

28. holy fuck

Chinos! wow! that is a perfect one...:thumbsup:

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[saltpoint]

31. Hi, realisticphish. I have been using it after reading it here --

-- on DU. Several people have posted with it and I just loved it. It seems so perfect.

I like Jesus when he defends the woman taken in adultery, when he challenges the angry, judgmental crowd to put down their stones. That is as Christian a passage as any I can think of, and more than anything in the letters of Paul.

Where were the true Christians when Clinton and Monica Lewinsky were the headline news for weeks and weeks and weeks? They were lined up to throw stones. "He's disgraced the office!" "He must resign or be impeached!" "Where is the outrage?"

It looks to me that true Christian living means you have to take a few arrows on the front line and not stand back in the crowd chanting about how wicked the woman in the pit is.

Bill Moyers (back at my imaginary press conference) will just SAY this. A paragraph or two just condemning the Chinos for the fraudulent conjob on Jesus they're pulling on their own congregations and neighbors, etc.

I think the Christian leftists are the true blue arrow-takers and I'd like to see them thrive at the expense of the fake Christians spewing all the hate speech.

[realisticphish]

32. christian leftist right here

as jim wallis said on the daily show, i don't think jesus' first concern would be the capital gains tax"

[saltpoint]

44. NOT the capital gains tax?! NOT the capital gains tax?!

You are right. Or Wallis is -- no, you are. Wallis may have said it but you got it and you carried it to my ears tonight. You did the heavy lifting on this one and I appreciate it. Walt Whitman said in order for there to be great poets there must first be great audiences.

I think leftist Christians use the most imaginative reading of scripture, as opposed to the Bible-tells-me-so bunch, who will swallow anything their local hellfire pastor asks them to swallow. That resonant GULP sound you hear every Sunday morning is the swallowing of unswallowable literal hellfire sermons. Who needs tornado sirens when we have that?

I would love to see the Christian left reclaim their territory. They are victims of a dogma-dishing pack of fakes.

[realisticphish]

45. check out

www.sojo.net if you haven't before (Sojourners: Christians for Peace and Justice). Fantastic site for the liberal christian

[FreedomAngel82]

40. Great scripture in your post realisticphish

I really love that one. Sadly BushCo and his followers think he's a peacemaker when he doesn't get it. He's making things even worse. At least Robertson understands that even if I disagree with him on everything else. Has he tried talking to Bush about this? Well wait. No. Wouldn't work because Bush didn't listen to anybody before. *sigh*

[realisticphish]

42. it boggles the mind that

CHINOs (ha! love it) are the same people always saying "what would jesus do". i have a bumper sticker that says "who would jesus bomb" in my dorm room, and i have people call me an unamerican commie. :eyes:

[saltpoint]

47. "Who Would Jesus Bomb" was one of the best --

-- bumperstickers I've seen in a long time.

Hang around with some good friends and steer clear of those who are calling you an "unAmerican commie," etc.

We all have an interest in each others' well-being and while I'm sure you know what you are doing when it comes to choosing the people you want to hang with, I insist on sending you good wishes anyway.

[realisticphish]

49. these guys

live on my floor...they're the ones with shrub stickers on their doors. we have this program here called "guess the straight person" where people (usually freshmen) try and figure out who in a panel is gay, and who straight (the point being to show that they're just normal people). one of these guys had a sign on his door that said "guess the straight person. stab the rest" and "kill the queers"

it got taken down by the hall director, but the fact that it ever existed terrifies me

[saltpoint]

53. "...stab the rest" !? Yikes.

Be careful around people like that.

[KnowerOfLogic]

25. You are right to be scared; irrationality is very dangerous, and contagiou

s.

[artemisia1]

33. Praise be!

Couldn't agree with you more. The nutjobs are dangerous f*cks.

- Again, for those who can't tell the difference, I am speaking of RW Fundie Nutjobs and not Christians in general.

[jdj]

34. statistically speaking things are going in the opposite direction.

And I'm sorry I don't have the link, but religion is losing folks left and right, the percentage is down, so it is the propagandists and the owners of the voting machine companies that should really scare people, because of the fraud they pulled off in Nov. despite the truth.

[artemisia1]

39. Numbers down, ACTIVISM up.

Church attendance may be way off from, say the 1950's, but the political power and activism of RW denominations is way up.

[FreedomAngel82]

41. I've noticed

even my church has even been low on numbers lately. :shrug: More people spread out and everything. And we're not an evangelical church or anything like that. And you're right artemisia1. :\

[FreedomAngel82]

35. I saw that and it is scary

I'm Christian and have grown up in a Christian household and it scared me even. I saw that documentary and it's really scary. You should also watch "When God Entered the White House." That's another scary film. :scared: I don't like it because of how they are. There's nothing wrong with reaching out to people and all that but they brainwash people into getting into canidates who don't have their best intrest in mind and they mix their beliefs into politics where it doesn't belong. A lot of good can come from reaching out to people and helping them but sometimes people get obsessed and that gets scary. :scared:

[Disturbed]

43. God is on who's side?

[neweurope]

50. They scare the shit out of me too - and they're growing in Europe.

Everyday I pass through a tiny village here (Germany) and see this sign "Potters house". I always thought it was an American sect and only yesterday read here on DU that it's a US mass church. So far these US churches dont have much influence here - you're quite right that the secular thinking in Europe is deeply ingrained. And those who ARE religious - in Germany at least - tend to turn to "their" old churches - Roman catholic and the official Protestant Church.

But the number of the - ahem: may I say idiots? - who are falling for some US-"church" or other is growing. And like an other poster here suggested I'm beginning to see it as one great experiment. The US have a plan to rule the world and they're attacking on all fronts. You hardly need a tinfoil hat anymore in order to see this.

---------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to the Hague!

[TWiley]

52. I once read a defination of "Propaganda" .

It said something like "The ancient Roman Curia charged with spreading the gospel of Christ for the purpose of influencing or overthrowing foriegn governments."

This is not an exact quote as I read it many years ago, but I am reasonably certain that this is the correct content in general.

Just think of the foriegn nations who recently have been kicking missionaries out of their countries. The "no conversion, no food" scam in Sir Lanka speaks volumes.

The bad news is this:

The bushtapo is outsourcing all social welfare programs to these nuts. There will be more new mini-vans in the curch parking lot while even more people starve to death in the streets.