America from the context of a Montana rodeo

[Stuckinthebush]

Greetings to DUers (and DU2)!

I have just spent 9 days in Montana for a much needed vacation. I had no television or newspapers (to speak of), and I had very, very sporadic Internet access. All nice in a way, but I realized how much I enjoy (and miss) my DU community.

To all Montana DUers - you live in a magical place.

On the 3rd of July, I attended the Livingston Roundup Rodeo with my Republican brother-in-law. While I stuck out like a sore thumb, it was an interesting experience.

The crowd was 100% white, probably 70% male. These were real cowboys and cowgirls, by the way...none of the pretend ones we have in the South.

The opening ceremony was awash in patriotic glitter with American flags held high above fast-ridding cowgirls decked out in sequined glory. Their horses circling the arena with increasing speed while partriotic music playing over the loud speaker all framed by snow covered peaks in the distant Montana sky even gave this jaded American a shiver.

My brother in law remarked at how when the singer for the Star Spangled Banner was announced, her credentials were cited as an all-American girl studying at the University of Montana with a 4.0 average but most importantly, she is a UNITED STATES MARINE! To which there was a hushed silence accompanied by brisk hats-off-hands-over-hearts standing. My Republican brother-in-law said that he was a little frightened at the display. I noticed that he stood in unison, hand over heart, steady gaze at the flag waving cowgirls, with a bead of sweat coming from his brow. Yep, he was a little nervous.

The announcer and rodeo clown began the night's fun through a straight man/comic routine. Their humor consisted of many negative references to Bill and Hillary, Sadaam, and the Dixie Chicks. All to great approval of the audience. A four-year old boy behind me remarked to my (still nervous) brother-in-law that the Dixie Chicks had said some very bad things.

My brother-in-law was amused at my silent disgust with the comedy routines, to which he said, "You see now how Bush wins". My only comeback was something to the effect of, "Montana only has 2 electoral votes."

My DU absence coupled with the uncritical acceptance and love of all things Bush/Republican made me very depressed by the end of the evening. I left the rodeo having no doubt that Bush would win 2004 in a landslide. Americans have accepted the role of followers to an Orwellian administration, and nothing would open their eyes.

As I walked past the beer stand, I passed a woman decked out in cowboy hat, Wrangler jeans, boots, and big belt buckle. I overheard a brief snippet of conversation she was having with her male partner.

"These Rush Limbaugh listening Republicans are making me sick. Let's get out of here."

I got a little smile on my face and felt somewhat better.

[slappypan]

1. Montana

I recall reading that Montana is one of the states with the highest percent of income per capita coming from some sort of government program.

[Stuckinthebush]

3. I wouldn't doubt it

Not just farm/ranch subsidies either.

One of the locals told us that the average yearly income in the Paradise Valley area where we were was around 17-19K. I would imagine that many in the area have used or will use some sort of welfare.

[SeattleDem]

43. yes, they take in more fed money than they contribute

Montana gets more money from the Federal government (ie tax dollars) than its citizens pay in Federal taxes.

We like to tease our conservative relatives in Montana about their welfare dependence.

[SuffragetteSal]

2. Welcome home!

Thanks for sharing your 'vacation' story with us.

[Stuckinthebush]

5. Thanks!

While it is nice to be home, I am somewhat sad that I can't stand in a Montana stream catching (or trying to catch) trout.

It is good to be back at DU.

[Armstead]

4. Any concentrated group is like that

It can seem overwhelming to be tossed into a concentrated mass of a subculture with shared values like that. It makes it seems like they reflect the whole world, when they really only reflect those with whom they share a common worldview.

I imagine if one of those folks paid a visit to a craft fair, or a national Unitarian conference or a Rolling Thunder tour they might have the same reaction from the opposite side. "All these damn unAmerican libural communists. This country is going to the dogs."

[LuminousX]

6. I am born and bred in Montana

and thus I have the belief that Montana is unlike any other place when it comes to politics. Most people don't even think about national politics. When you live in a state where you can easily drive a hundred miles before seeing another car (only a slight exaggeration, that 100 miles would probably have to be between the hours of 11pm and 3am) most of the concerns are local.

Montana has been good at sending both Democrats and Republicans to Congress. When Democratic Presidential nominees campaign, they rarely campaign on issues that concern Montanans. Let's face it, the wants, needs, and desires of a state that doesn't even have the population of Chicago just don't make it on the platform. So Montanan's gravitate to which party is giving the best rhetoric for a small population state. Less government is a good thing when it seems like the Federal gov't owns most of the state (not true, but I grew up on Canyon Ferry Lake and everywhere I went the land was either BLM, Bureau of Reclamation, or Forest Service). Of course, what Montanan's sometimes forget is the Federal government is one of the largest employers in the state and without it, unemployment would be even worse.

I love Montana. I will return to Montana. And I will continue to vote Democratic and hopefully, one day, the National Party will make an effort to connect to the small population states that don't suffer the 'large city' problems that it likes to address.

[Stuckinthebush]

7. I love it too.

As for the driving - wow!

You really could drive for a long time without seeing another car. Driving at night was like Russian roulette with deer instead of bullets.

[havocmom]

17. Good points about the locals' view of government.

Havocdad is a Rebpulican (old school, constitutionist, fiscal responibilty variety) and a federal employee. He works on finding ways to make ranching and conservation compatible and he works very hard. It is annoying when ranchers call and drop by the house with all sorts of questions, at all hours of day and night, drawing on his knowledge and creativity, then call him a 'government parasite'.

These folks drive pickup trucks worth more than our house. The trucks and everything else that enables their lifestyle are property of their incorporated ranches, so it is all 'cost of doing business'. When they do their personal taxes, they know just how much income to declare to keep them off the hook. There is a major economy off the books and I am oft temped to turn half of them into the IRS. Get so damned angry at the rants against 'tax and spend liberals', minorities and welfare cheats while they dodge their own responsibility every way they can.

Oh, and there is a fire on the range and they sure are in favor of the government hauling ass and assets out to protect things.

But I plod along, making a point of pointing out how often they benifit when things are paid for collectively. Outsider that I am, I get a fair hearing and respect for my views. Course, they know I am against more gun control, and they never met a liberal with a handgun before :evilgrin:
And most of them are good people, hardworking and honest. They are a lot like everybody else, caught up in their concerns and sometimes unaware of the other guy's situation. But they are not without the ability to learn. And some of them have found DU!

[Stephanie]

41. Hey Luminous! I'm from Helena!

Do I know you? Wish I was out at Canyon Ferry right now! And I agree with everything you said. I'm still homesick, can't wait to go back.

Montana was a Democratic state for years. Anyone remember Mike Mansfield? In my memory we had Dem governors and reps up until the Reagan era. Montana was a big labor state when the main industries were mining and timber.

The folks you saw at the rodeo are not all of Montana. They're good people who've been brainwashed by Rush Limbaugh, like working people all over this country. But Montana is also full of ecologically minded, outdoors-loving, granola-eating, thoughtful, educated and aware people. You should have gone to Missoula.

[LuminousX]

42. Helena

I don't know if I know you or not.

I went to Helena High, graduated in 1989.
Sean Francis

[Stephanie]

46. I went to Helena High too!

But I'm older than you. (I refuse to say how much older! ) PM if you want to chat!

[havocmom]

8. Take it with a grain of salt

Here in Tiny Town, Montana, there are rumblings of anti-bush sentiment even with all the jingoism that is so visable. (And this place has but a handful of Dems.) Also, Independence Day is a bit atypical even for here.

Glad you got to see Livingston; everybody should get that view once in awhile. Cleaner air is good for you. Open space gives your soul room to stretch. Good for folks to travel a bit and see a little of how others live. If I could, I'd send a lot of my small town neighbors to some big cities to broaden their viewpoints too. ;-)

And you see why DU is so important to those of us in the hinterlands. Tis good to be reminded that the local mindset is not the only mindset.

[Stuckinthebush]

9. It was marvelous

And the Livingston Roundup parade was so much fun.

It lasted for over an hour and had every kind of vehicle and livestock imaginable. My children were enthralled.

Towards the end of the parade, there were people walking down the street handing out popsicles to all of the spectators (and there were thousands of spectators).

I can't wait to go back.

[havocmom]

19. Do you drive in or fly?

Cuz if you drive in from the east, PM me and we'll show you around Tiny Town! There are some wild things happening here. Turning dinosaur theories on their ears AND Havocdad took me out and let me 'discover' proof that redwoods and sequoias once grace what is now the prairie!

We had a bunch of geologists from all over the world here a few weeks ago. This is a strange place and wonderful, when you take the time to really look at it. I do prefer the mountains in the western part of the state, though.

If you get the chance to visit the Canyon Ferry area mentioned by another poster, take it! The Gates of the Mountains part of the Mo. River is incredible! Helena is a lovely town and a bit more comfy for liberals. Butte is an experience onto itself, best done on St. Patrick's Day, if you have a stout constitution! Take a drive along the Wise River. Breath the scent of clover sweeping down a mountainside. See Flathead country and drive Going To The Sun Highway.

Even atheists will smile when they hear someone say "god's country."

It is the Last Best Place

[Stuckinthebush]

20. This agnostic said "god's country" a few times!

We flew into Bozeman this time. By the way, what a landing! The plane had to spiral down due to the mountain ranges surrounding the city. The plane hit a few pockets on the way down which turned everyone (except my 4-year old daughter) green. My daughter said "Whee!" all the way down.

Next time we come, I'll drive from the east and try to hook up! You can bet that I am going to get out there again. There were too many trout that I didn't catch.

[havocmom]

23. If Bo-zone was a tough landing for you, stay away from the Butte airport!

The corkscrew into Bozeman isn't a bad as it used to be! To land at Butte, one generally comes in from the west, flying straight into the rocky face of the continental divide! At what seems like the last possible moment, the plane veers left and you get a sort of bobsled slide onto the runway. At the end of the runway is the cemetary. Welcome to Butte; hope you brought your sense of humor cuz the whole place is sorta like the landing!

I love it!

And if you come at the right time of the year, you can go to Dillion for the 'cast 'n blast', tho it might be better to wait a couple of years and hope the Beaverhead River gets some water in it again.

[MuseRider]

31. Livingston is so beautiful!

Bought a great pair of cowgirl boots there! I would love to live there but am too fond of my Kansas.

[ibegurpard]

10. Small correction: We have 3 electoral votes.

Conservatism here is not related so much to religion, like it is in much of the bible belt, but in the view of "big government" as elitist and out-of-touch with local concerns. Clinton won here in '92 (although Perot was a big factor) and Nader got one of his highest percentages in the country here.

[Stuckinthebush]

13. Sorry...

I didn't mean to take an electoral vote from you!

I wonder if in the larger towns such as Helena, Billings, etc., there are more Democrats that help tilt the balance.

As for local concerns, in Montana are those more land management type concerns? I was curious about resident's thoughts regarding EPA/Dept of Interior/Forestry intrusions.

[ibegurpard]

14. Federal management of lands

is a BIG issue here, particularly in the more agricultural eastern part of the state...like it is in many western states that have large amounts of federal lands. There is a lot of resentment on the part of locals about federal officials "swooping" in here and dictating land management policy. Some pockets of the state, particularly Missoula, Great Falls, and Butte, are pretty strongly democratic. Billings is the largest city but is more conservative, I would probably classify Yellowstone County as a "swing" county. I would classify this state as pretty strongly libertarian.

[havocmom]

21. Billings leans right, Helena a bit left, Missoula left-er still, and Butte

is in a class all its own. ( I do not recommend flying into the Butte airport unless you are a real thrill seeker!)

See, Montana is at least two entities. The east is cattle and wheat. The west, more people closer together, more variety of commerce and more tourism. The economic base is very different, so the self interests are too and it does show a bit politically.

I read an essay that there is also a big differance east and west of the divide in the mountain area. There are a lot of far right transplants in enclaves in the far west.

Montana is the 4th largest state area-wise and has a population of about 800,000 people. It is a big place with broad shoulders. Sometimes those shoulder get a chip on them. With only 3 reps in DC, we do tend to get our collective backs up. LOL

[blindersoff]

11. We love Montana and drive there frequently from San Diego

It is such a total change of mindset. We go up there to dig clay (we are part time potters) and to visit with an artist friend who moved back there and also a cousin of my husband's. The cousins are nice people, but seem to be quite conservative. We didn't talk politics and so had a good time.

The wide open spaces are pretty seductive when you normally live in crowded southern California. We are getting ready to go on vacation again to the Olympic Peninsula in Washington, and are having a hard time deciding whether to make it a bigger loop trip and hit Montana again before Washington. It is gorgeous there and we'd move there in a heartbeat to get away from all the craziness, but our blood has thinned after so many years in California, and we're not sure we could handle the rough winters.

[Bruce McAuley]

12. Eastern Washington is much the same, but the tide IS turning...

First of all, you WERE at a rodeo, and that alone means 80% of the people there have the "cowboy" mindset, kinda like "Bonanza" in their minds all the time: Paw and Little Joe and Hoss riding their horses and defeating any bad guys.
You likely didn't see the rest of the population, the retirees, the snowbirds, the store owners and merchants, the government employees(BIG percentage), and the "back to the land" folks. All these people make up a MUCH larger percentage of the population than the Cowboy/Rancher segment.
In my area, there are a few cowboys left, but they realize it's a losing battle, as cattle markets switch online, and local livestock auctions close up and blow away.
The Little Old Ladies, whom I play pinochle with every week are not only wondering WHY we went to war, but are doubly pissed that the price of gasoline hasn't even gone down. At least a couple aren't going to vote for George again. Now THAT is a REAL grassroots change, and a great opportunity for a moderate like Dean, or maybe Kucinich(my fave) to make inroads to Bush's supposedly "safe" voters.
Just my opinion from the sticks, FWIW.
:hi:

Bruce
Edit for typo

[Stuckinthebush]

15. True...

I did see a great number of artists and back to the land types in Paradise Valley. We were at a Sinclair station when a dust-covered pick up truck drove up. A grizzly looking fella got out and started to pump gas. On the bumper was a sticker that said, "No war in Iraq!"

So, there is a look at the other side.

[davsand]

16. Check out Missoula--VERY progressive!

Not all of Montana is right wing heaven. You need to check out Missoula before you write off the whole state. Jim Hightower wrote about the city council there, and I about fell over because one of my friend's brothers is on the city council there. He is about as progressive as it gets!

I had a good laugh, Missoula was a subject in one of our Top Ten Conservative Idiots lists when one of the conservative city council members took exception to the peace sign on a liberal city council member's laptop. It actually caught the attentions here at DU!

I'd move to Missoula in a heartbeat!

Laura

[Stuckinthebush]

18. That's a college town, right?

Isn't the University of Montana in Missoula?

[davsand]

22. Why, yes it is.

Check out the website for the university:

http://www.umt.edu/

If you want to learn more about the town check this site:

http://www.montana.com/missoula/

"Missoula is dubbed the Garden City for its mild winters relative to the rest of Montana. It's no wonder we're suffering some growing pains: Missoula is a pretty good place to live. Depending on the season, we hike, ski, fish, run rivers and ride mountain bikes. We talk politics and shoot pool. We're also a literate town; it's commonplace to chat with a local author about his or her latest book. (John Updike dubbed Missoula the "Paris of the 90's," a flattering but somewhat gross exaggeration.)"

Frankly, I'm just about ready to move there with everything I've learned about the town. Years ago I fell in love with Billings, but as an adult, I'm not sure I'd be happy there. As a progressive, I might just be able to make a go of it in Missoula!

Laura

[LuminousX]

25. Yep

Yes, U of M is in Missoula (Go Griz!) Missoula might be liberal on one side but has major social issues. Again, it just goes to show that you can't generalize any place. And is also why I hate it when I see people 'writing off states.' I understand that you can't fight every battle and you have to rally resources to where they will do the most good, but damnit, Kerry or Dean or any of the top contenders spending a weekend in Montana would really help connect people to the party.

And let's face reality, Montanan's aren't all that happy with Gov. Martz. Montana is ripe if it is properly cultivated.

[inthecorneroverhere]

24. Missoula is overpriced!!

Missoula?!? Whilst passing through, I found Missoula to be incredibly overpriced and stuck-up. It seems that they think the're 'hot stuff' because they're in the western part of the state and have the University. Everything in Missoula was overpriced, from the food in the grocery store to places to stay for the night.

Honestly, the motels in Missoula wanted about 1 1/2 times what motels anywhere else, including in resort towns on the coasts of Oregon and Washington, want. Needless to say, not wanting to be fleeced, I wound up passing Missoula right by and staying down the road in a small town. Guess how much I spent in that overpriced place?! A grand total of 53c for a candy bar, since I wasn't willing to be ripped off for everything else.

Montana State University is in Bozeman. I liked Bozeman a lot better than Missoula. Small college town with amenities and shops, but less stuck-up than Missoula. Bozeman was kind of nice.

Butte had a bunch of neat historic buildings in sort of an ugly landscape. However, Butte was also overpriced. I went into a used bookstore, and the prices they wanted on their books were at least twice what our wonderful local used bookshops in an eastern state charge.

[LuminousX]

26. That's funny

Within Montana, Bozeman is considered the place where all the wealthy people go to ski and hangout. It is also the place where all the religious whacko's congregate. I love the Bozeman-Belgrade area, so don't think I'm picking sides. Missoula was always seen as the hippy town. Apartments and such are overpriced because Missoula doesn't have a lot of space to expand. Meanwhile more and more people are pouring into the city.

[inthecorneroverhere]

33. Missoula

Well, Missoula made a very quick negative first impression on me. Mostly because things were so overpriced.

By the way, in the span of less than 10 minutes, I saw no fewer than 4 police cars. They were all going different directions than I was, but I felt the town was 'just a little bit' overpatrolled...or else had a major crime problem.

Saw nothing of the sort in Bozeman. Prices in Bozeman were kind of medium - not real cheap, but not over-expensive either.

[fsbooks]

30. Missoula: Home of Jeannette Rankin

And now of the http://www.jrpc.org/">Jeannette Rankin Peace Center.

George McGovern has a home nearby as well, and makes frequent visits.

Montana has a proud democratic tradition (remember Mike Mansfield?). The republican voting of recent years has little to do with the neocons who have seized power currently.

Mind you, our governor, Judy Martz, is probably dumber than your governor (as the bumper sticker goes).

[blindersoff]

51. we spent 5 days in Missoula last summer while our car

was out of commission. My niece was going to school there and we spent quite a few hours just walking around the town and stopping to get a good microbrew beer. Pretty town, lots of nice shade trees...

[Stuckinthebush]

53. I drank a lot of Moose Drool while out there

...beer that is.

Moose Drool and another one called Trout Slayer were very good micro brews from somewhere in Montana.

[blindersoff]

55. Yummmmm, Moose Drool Beer

and Trout Slayer... they were all good. It was a great way to spend 5 days...

[tom_paine]

27. Ahhh, Montana. I miss it, too!

I spent some very happy years up there, and dream of returning, as well.

[havocmom]

28. Yo, tom_paine

:toast:
Was wondering when you would pop in!

Sending cool breeze and the lovely scent of yellow clover to you!

[tom_paine]

29. Thanks, havocmom!

Ah, to stand upon the ridge of the Gallatins looking down on the magnificence...

To drink in the scent of crisp, pure Montana air washed down with a sparkling glass of crisp, pure Montana water...

To shoot pool in a smoky Montana bar with wooden floor and liscense plates on the wallthat isn't purposefully "made up" to look that way because some marketing yahoo though it would work to bring in suckers...

Sigh.

[LuminousX]

32. HiJacking the Thread ...

We seem to have a nice coalition of Montanan's and Montanan's-at-heart (my belief is once you get Montana in your blood, you can't ever leave it), what can we do to get the people there to vote Democratic?

What issues are resonating with Montanan's? I know the Montana Power company fiasco is still having effects because so many people lost a lot of their retirement.

How can we, Democrats at large, convince our candidates to make a good faith gesture to states like Montana? I'm enthralled with the idea of live video link up of several locations, where a candidate only has to visit one part of the state and through a live video link hold several meeting simultaneously. (Also keeps the candidate out of those damned small planes)

We obviously can't expect the various Democratic contenders to spend money in these places that offer little in return, but if they take an interest, tape special messages for these places and distrubute them via the web (imagine that, Kerry, Dean, Kucinich, or Gephardt speaking directly to the voters of Montana or North Dakota or Wyoming, asking for thier support, addressing some key issues of that state...) would that have some impact?

See, I just don't want Bush to lose, I won't him to lose in a tremendous landslide!

[Stuckinthebush]

36. Let's look at the numbers - shall we?

In the 2000 election, Bush took 240,178 votes, Gore and Nader combined had 161,615.

We are talking about a 78,563 vote difference. Not much in my estimation.

Of course, in a state with about 800,000 people, the total number of votes was 411,038. That is about 100% turnout of registered voters I would imagine.

So, can we swing 78000 votes in Montana? Perhaps.

[havocmom]

37. Hijack away if you can get the rest of the dems to listen a bit

Plain talk? OK, of major importance: drop the gun control issue. It costs us big time in rural areas! Not everybody who has a gun is a 'gun nut' and it pisses them off to be so labeled! They will not hear any other message you have until this one is quiet. Dean has the right apporach on this one!

When you live in a county that covers 3,169,280 acres, 1204 miles of unpaved county roads and about 140 miles of paved highway, and law enforcement consists of a sheriff, two deputies and one highway patrolman, ensuring one's personal safety is not something one expects to have done by someone else! The rifle rack in the truck is not just the punchline of a redneck joke around here. The county population of about 1300 would be considerable smaller if we had to try and reason with a rattler, lion or bear crossing our path at an inoppurtune moment. Sometimes there are two legged vermin to deal with too. Most know how to take care peacefully, but this is still a rough county.

There is real concern about trade barriers. Canada is closer than most of the US and the ability to get hay to starving cattle fast is more important to these folks than the nuances of international trade treaties. Please keep common sense in trade policy and try to avoid using people's survival as bargining chips whenever possible.

Ah, yes, public lands are a sore spot with many. We need to find ways to make sure the locals are involved in decision making on those issues. When a BLM agent mouths off at a public meeting that ranching is gonna be gone soon so they might as well get off the land now, well, it does not play well nor make friends. There are ways to go about getting landowners to see benifit with land use policies and public lands IF you take the time to learn the problems and find Win-Win solutions. Havocdad does it all the time!

Another issue which will be big soon is Coal Bed Methane... Yep, the gas shrub has been talking about.

A little geology lesson here to make it clearer: The eastern part of the state was once a shallow ocean. There are a lot of salts in the soils and the water is not good. It is an arid land now and irrigation is a double edged sword. You need to put water on the land, but you need to do it judiciously or you salt the earth and make it sterile.

OK, now back to CBM drilling: A lot of ranchers are finding out that they do not own the mineral rights under their land. Here comes Big Oil & Gas and they wanna drill. Legally, they can do what ever they want to the surface to get to the goodies below ground!

Ranchers in Wy have already seen their pastures torn up for roads and drilling rigs. That is just the first part. There is underground water in the way of the gas drilling. The cheapest way around it is to pump it up fast and pour it on the ground. Not the most conersvative use of precious water and definately not the best way to care for what little topsoil there is! Montana ranchers are seeing the problem coming at them too.

Find a way to turn government back to the job of riding herd on Big Business instead of pimping for it and you may just make friends out of a lot of folks around here. I have been trying to show them that govenment is not the enemy, rather the interests which presently control it is. I am one woman screaming in the wilderness here... Could sure use a backup making the point with these folks.

A grassroots sort of candidate could catch on here, IF the message gets across that we are gonna return things to government for and by the people.

OK, on to the coprprate fraud issue: AG Mike McGrath (Dem) is going after suing Touch America. The power companies were deregulated under (R) Governor Racicot. This can be HUGE! Racicot left Mt and got swell jobs lobbying for companies like ENRON. He then became the RNC chairman and now is leading bush 04 campaign. Put it all together and bring it home to Montanans who lost jobs, investment $$ and are losing a way of live because the energy companies own Washington DC right now. This will play in the eastern and western part of the state! The workers and retirees in the west believed that if you worked hard and saved money, everything would be fine. They got screwed. The folks on the land in the east are facing a huge monster ready to devour a way of life they and two generations before them fought hard to eek out of a harsh land.

So, throw some help Mcgrath's way and the payoff for the Dems could be great and far reaching! Use the issue in other rural states! We know we are a tiny electorial speck, but we aren't the only ones in this boat. Montana has led the way before, help us do it again.

OK, on to the military: Farm and ranch kids serve in the military and the folks at home honor them. Pump up the volumn on AWOL and vetern benifit cuts while fat cats are getting fatter and giving thousands of dollars at a pop to break bread with AWOL!

I am already hearing grumblings about how thin the military is stretched. Folks are worried about the kids we have overseas.
Overheard at the grocery store:
"I guess you are glad the war is over, huh? So how is ### doing over there?"
"Don't know that things are any better. He is still getting shot at and they are sitting on the border with Iran now. Doesn't seem like any war is over."

We just had our independence day. Like the founder of this thread illustrated, it is a BIG deal here. Everybody who ever wore a uniform is usually in each town's parade. When the jets do a fly by over all these small towns, it is a BIG DEAL. Folks stop what they are doing and wave at the sky (like the pilots could see us at that speed ;-) ) But they all wave. And they are proud of being Americans.

Wanna reach them? Honor that sentiment. Tap into the power of it. These are hardworking folks and they need to know they are a part of something beyond the horizon, tho they generally will bitch about it.

Show them how much they have in common with the city family trying to get by. Listen to them. Talk with them not at them. They are shy in many ways and can give the impression of being a bit slow. Don't make the mistake of thinking they are.

The spirit of what made this country great is still very close to the surface in Montana. Tap into it. Honor that energy and show us how to use it to save this nation. East or west, city folks, 'townies' or ranchers out in the country, we all love America and want her to stand for something good again!

OK, off my soapbox, but, hey, you asked. Love ya for that!

[ibegurpard]

38. Very well said, Havocmom!

:toast:

The trick is to find a message that encapsulates all of those concerns as well as the concerns for people in the cities. It's the old urban vs. rural problem. Populism, anathema to the DLC-type politicians, is what will win the day here and, I suspect, in many other places as well.

[havocmom]

44. Populism...

The appearance of populism is what has given the far right such an edge for the past decade. Now, we gotta be the Real McCoy Populists and show America that we, all American citizen, can take the nation back from the corportists.

It is gonna be a damned hard fight. It will last a long time and many of us will lose our shirts... What the hell, they are gonna take them from us one way or another. At my age, I intend to got out fighting.

July 4, 03 the day Havocmom starts to really fight.
July 4, 04 she gets down and dirty.

[LuminousX]

40. Awesome Stuff

Thank you for highlighting this.

I agree with you on the gun control issue. It hurt Gore. There are simpler better ways of approaching it, and this is one of the issues that the party addresses because it plays well with the urban folk but totally misses with the rural folk.

I grew up with guns. I grew up RESPECTING guns. Hell, I grew up with kids bringing guns to school because they were either out hunting before they came into school or were going hunting after school.

[tom_paine]

45. Awesome post, havocmom

You must be really causing some havoc up there in Big Sky Country!

:toast: :toast:

[havocmom]

47. thanks to all of you

but to have tom_paine complement one... oh my oh my! Your posts always resonate so beautifully.

This place is my passion. When I finally get brave enough to write for reals (and for publication) I best stick to where my passion is?

Come home for a visit, tom_paine. It isn't all lost as you fear. Come home and recharge your fire. Come and have a beer with the old timers. They are dying off and soon we will be the old timers! We best get all their stories. They are all worth saving.

[Stephanie]

48. havocmom, are you in Butte?

And where is tom_paine from? We should form a DU/MT social club.

[tom_paine]

49. I'm from SE PA

But my heart was left long ago in the Big Sky...

"I shall return"
--Gen. Douglas MacArthur

[havocmom]

50. Not in Butte but miss it

Am in "West Dakota" at present. tom_paine is like me, a non native who found out one day that his heart was waiting for him under the Big Sky and then had to leave for other points. I was gone for 16+ years before coming 'home'.

Did live in Helena, long ago. Lived across the parking lot from the Cathedral and miss it so. Used to walk on Last Chance Gulch in the evening and hear the echos of long ago when the town was new and wild. If you squnint a bit and strain your ears, you can hear the hurdy gurdy and see the miners tumbling outta the saloons.

Havocpup took art class upstairs over the Windbag Saloon. We never told grandma Dot that she took art lessons in an old brothel!

When I die, carry my ashes to the top of Mt Helena and let me blow in the wind over the valley and under the gaze of the Sleeping Giant.

PM me anytime. It is good to hear voices from the old 'hood! Havocdad used to live near Butte and is Irish... need I say more?

edit: because da momma is tired and about typed out!

[LuminousX]

52. Just as long

as those of us who are Montanans in exile are included.

[havocmom]

54. LOL You can take the boy (or girl) outta the counrty...

but you are always a Montanan!

Shall we have an old home week? AOLI.M. anybody? PM me if ya do and I'll give ya all my screen name.

[Stuckinthebush]

34. I have a bit of a confession....

When we arrived in Bozeman, I had pre-registered for a Hertz minivan. We needed the space, so a sedan wouldn't work. The Hertz guy gave me the keys, and I proceeded to the parking area.

Now, we had three children, four adults, and 9 bags with us. When we got to the "minivan", it turned out to be a Ford Explorer. Evidently, they were out of minivans. I wasn't about to go back in and demand my minivan even through I hate SUVs. Anyway, the thing could carry all of us, our bags and a cow on the roof.

My wife, who hates SUVs more than me, even shrugged and proceeded to climb the 10 feet into the vehicle.

After 9 days, many spent on dusty, back country roads, I will admit....I liked it :shrug:

OK...I wouldn't have one in Birmingham, but it was actually quite nice to have out there. I can see how they could roll in an instance, however.

So...spank me.

[havocmom]

39. hey, I hate SUVs too

but there are places where they have their place! Most of Montana is such a place! When you go 200 miles to town to shop, you have to haul a lot of provisions home with you!

We opted for a gas saving small station wagon, but there are places we can't go in it. Ah, well, we are getting on in years and don't have to climb every mountain we see anymore. We can just look at them in the distance.... and remember.

Sigh....

[Kat45]

35. Moving to Montana soon,

Gonna be a dental floss tycoon. :-)

[grasswire]

56. I spent ten years in Montana...

...and am just realizing from this thread that I actually do miss it. There is no more beautiful state, really. An easier life, if you can tolerate the winters.

When I moved to Helena from San Francisco in 1976, there was no escalator, no McDonald's, no sourdough bread to be found. This is the capital city! It was quite a culture shock.

Egad, what good memories, though. A thriving arts community, charming towns, fabulous outdoor opportunities, friendly people, good restaurants.

Anyone who has never seen a Montana sunset would think that Charlie Russell exaggerated.