Fundies want a christian world

[cynatnite]

Growing up a strict baptist upbringing the theme was always that as christians we had a duty to spread the word of god and save everyone. That's what Jesus said we were supposed to do. It's a simple idea and one that everyone I knew took very seriously.

Over the last few days I've renewed my reading into PNAC, corporate media and various other issues that are related. I've come to some very disturbing and frightening conclusions.

Extreme right wing Christians are obsessed with spreading the word of god and converting. With the advent of technology as we know it, they've found the perfect venues to do just that.

I don't think there is no reasoning with majority of these right wingers. They are staunch in their beliefs to such an extent that to step outside of that is in their minds a step against god. They manipulate moderate christians by use of the bible and god's commandments.

They took it a step further by working to gain control of the most of the media in this country to further their agendas. They want god in schools, government and everywhere else no matter that the 'christian' founding fathers wanted separation of church and state.

I also believe that the mandate given to them by god is far more important than this country and what it is meant to be. I think if it meant that the ideology of christianity as they see it would run this country they'd do away with even more of the civil rights and turn the US into a theocracy. In their minds they want this country ran by god.

This leads me to the rest of what I now believe. With all that they have done in manipulating public opinion with the right wing controlled media they feel safe in continuing with their agenda. The PNAC states that this country needs to promote it's values around the world by any means necessary. In order for much of this to happen we needed a Pearl Harbor of sorts and we got that.

I believe this regime knew 9/11 was coming and allowed it to happen. With this horrific event it set the stage for putting in place the perfect scenario to change the world to the right wing way of thinking.

Looking close at the little things such as the media, patriot act and others it's hard to see. But taking a step back and looking at the big picture I see a crusade of sorts to make the world overall into their liking. The first step is going after christianity's 'enemy'. Islam. The fundies believe Islam to be the enemy of christianity and god.

They have to tread carefully. They can't go after just anyone. Iraq was a first step as we all know and we also know that Iran is next on the list. Following that will wind up being other Islamic countries.

There are a few problems when it comes to implementation and it's something I think should be taken in consideration. In order to keep this plan on track they need another fundi like shrub to take up where he leaves off. I don't honestly believe they will keep him past the next presidential election. The way our constitution is set up a prez can only serve two terms.

If shrub finds a way to stay in, something major needs to happen in order to suspend the 2008 election. If that doesn't happen, I do think they've got a guy sitting in the wings. I'm not sure if it's Jeb because it might set some alarm bells off with a lot of Americans with already having had two bush's.

Either way, they will pull out all the stops to make sure the Repubs stay in power. How else can they do god's will?

Keeping all this in mind I do wonder if I've just been spending too much time reading. I felt this way before and dismissed it. I quit listening to Air America, quit reading a lot of material and even stepped back from DU for a little while, but I still wind up back at the same place. They want to make this a christian world to their liking and stomp out all the other religions unless it's christianity.

I do hope that other DUers can read this and tell me honestly what they think whether they disagree or not. At the very least I want to think about this much more and I need to hear other opinions in order to be better informed.

I'm no conspiracy freak. I consider myself to be a logical and reasonable person so coming to these kinds of conclusions is very unsettling for me.

I look forward to reading what people think.

Thanks

[BOSSHOG]

1. Your subject line is exactly right

I was reading an article in the paper last week where fundies are holding meetings to change the perception of them. What caught my interest is there desire to spread the word that they do not want to force their religion on the nation, that is not what "we" want to do, its only a secular perception. In other words, thats exactly what they want to do. They want to replace the constitution with the bible and when there exists an effort to keep them from doing so their pavolivan reply is that they are being persecuted. Conservatives, republicans, evangelicals, baptists, etc are told from the pulpit and from right wing radio and from other sources of an orchestrated web of misinformation what to believe and they march forth with their beliefs. Knowledge is totally irrelevent to those that believe. I do wish we could shed a big light on PNAC.

[cynatnite]

11. PNAC

The first time I went to the site it seemed so benign at first. After going back to it and studying it much closer it's really frightening. The whole thing just screams that they want to christianize those nations any way possible and get even more people to their way of thinking.

If I took the bible as fact, I'd almost say that the christian movement as we see it today was the prophetic teachings leading to armageddon.

Wouldn't that be something? The fundies and right wing nutjobs being the very thing they claim to despise. I'd call it poetic justice if I believed it.

[The Doctor.]

15. Ok, then you have to read this...

"This belief in the end of the world has fueled the actions of so many of our leaders. They are so certain Armageddon is upon us that they have no intention of preserving our resources or our restraint. They have been fooled into believing that their actions are divine and that the destruction of the Human Race has no impact on achieving divinity.

The greatest deceiver has deceived them. The very thing they believe they are waging war against has fooled them."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2974953#2975051

[cynatnite]

30. Excellent!

I read it and I was completely blown away. The whole divinity thing I do need to think about some more, but the last seven or so paragraphs were right on the money.

Thanks for pointing me in that direction. I'm saving it to read again.

[Az]

2. This above all else is perhaps the most critical issue our society faces

Freedom and our Constitutional Democracy are dependent on a couple of things. People assume that because we have a constitution that our rights are inviolate. But as we are seeing now this is simply not true. The Constitution raises the bar but our rights can still be taken away.

What our nation has relied upon for these 200+ years is an acceptance of a social contract. That we are all here to strive together to build a better society. That we welcome all participants and we do not force our beliefs on others.

But the fundamentalists have discarded the social contract. No longer willing to play by the same rules as everyone else they have organized to dismantle the system that keeps them from obtaining the dominance they demand.

Here is the crux of the problem. We are a post modern society. We embrace the concepts of tolerance and inclusion of all for determing our societies path. In essense PM says that no group is right and no group is wrong. All strive together to find the best consentual path for society.

Against an aggressive group such as the fundamentalists PM methods are very limited. There is no advocacy or method of propogation for Post Modern methodologies. Thus when faced with a group that has abandoned the social contract they have no way to confront them. There is no way for our tolerant society to stem the advances of the religious right.

To further complicate the matter the religious right has learned how to turn PM's tools against it. They phrase their demands as aspects of belief. Because tolerance demands that we cannot proclaim these beliefs wrong we cannot directly oppose them.

With no active advocacy for social systems that are oppositional in nature to the fundamentalists its merely a matter of time before they simply overwhelm our society. As they are aggressively seeking to convert more and more children their numbers will grow. At some point they will hit a critical mass that can simply override our Constitution and all those inalienable rights will go poof.

There is a very real culture war going on today. And one side is armed to the teeth. The other side doesn't even know the war has begun already.

[Pepperbelly]

5. Very well said ...

One of the things that fascinates me is the psychological process that leads otherwise independent individuals to embrace the conformity that is one of the hallmarks of this movement. I have thought about it quite a bit and have some ideas but nothing I consider definative.

As it relates to this particular facet ... dominionism, I suppose we would call it and clearly, it is not at all the objective of even a majority of the religious community although it is a sizable minority of that community ... I just wonder how one gts to the point internally of feeling justified in attempting to impose a set of beliefs on others, even with the full realization of what a double-edged weapon it is, how easily the knife could tun in their hands.

[The Doctor.]

8. Very well put....

It really is quite a conundrum...

The Dominionists push and push, and should anyone 'push back' they are labeled 'intolerant' and 'hateful', thus compelling their opponents to demonstrate more 'tolerance' and 'acceptance'.

It's a beautiful tool - if I call you intolerant or adversarial and you resist me, you've proven me to be the victim by your mere resistance. If you acquiesce... well, I win.

It's the same method the right wing uses to pacify the media.
The shrill cry of 'Liberal Media!' at the merest mention of this administration's failings has stunned the media into subservience.
The more 'outraged' over the 'Liberal Media' the pundits and schills are, the less likely the media will report any news they don't want us to hear... lest they 'prove' themselves to be the 'evil liberal media' they are prtrayed as.

It's truly a beautiful tool.


Oh, and by the way, you are very stubborn. ;)

[A HERETIC I AM]

36. "I AM CALLED EVIL by those who feel PERSECUTED.....

because i REFUSE TO ALLOW THEM TO SHOVE THEIR BELIEFS DOWN MY THROAT"


Author unknown (I wish i had said it)

The movement to "Christianize" the USA wont stop until the folks who proclaim this agenda are publicly shamed and made to look foolish. Air time is given to the likes of the Tim Lahaye's (Co-Author of the "Left behind" series of books) of the world for reasons that TOTALLY escape me. This is a man who is CONVINCED the Rapture is going to happen and happen soon. Of course, not so soon as to keep him from enjoying the millions made by the sale of his stupid books. I'm sorry, but if you actually believe that human beings will simply disappear or begin floating up to the clouds because of the writings of some deluded fellow from 17 centuries ago, then you have a dubious grasp on reality.

[leesa]

38. Tim Lahaye is a long time pal and former leader of a christian group

funded by the Rev Moon. The Bushes are also Moonies. I would think this link would wise them up since Rev Moon declares himself the Messiah and was crowned in a Senate building last year.

Fundies have virtually no ability to think logically though, so it's very difficult. My Fundie office-mate is obsessed with the End Times, but is completely unaware of current events in real time.

[cynatnite]

46. Oh, boy1

I sent my mother(fundie) an article about moon and his tentacles. She flat out said the crowning didn't happen. That it was a lie. I sent her more and included links to pics and a video. It really threw her, but I still don't think she believes it really happened.

After a discussion with her and my sister today, they do not want to listen at all about any of this or what's happening in this country. They're not even calling it lies. They absolutely do not want to know anything which would contradict what they believe to be the truth.

My mom is convinced of end times and today she wanted to bring her preacher over to the house. I told her no, but she was more than welcome to come with her bible and kool-aid. (well, I didn't mention the kool-aid) LOL

[Ladyhawk]

53. Here's the author of your quote.

"I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do." --D. Dale Gulledge

On edit: I thought it would make a nifty signature. :)

[A HERETIC I AM]

64. Thanks! It was never more appropriate than today in this country

n/t

[Ladyhawk]

72. NP...If you want me to send you a list of quotes like this, PM me. n/t

[FloridaPat]

3. I love the part in the Bible where Jesus tells His desciples to

go and teach but not to the gentiles. Now we know why.

I think this country has been taken over by the insane, or religious fanatics, or whatever. I agree with your general conclusions, but I think they are trying to force Jesus into the Return by making what they think are Biblical prophesies come true. You would think that after 2000 of not being able to prophasize correctly, they would tread a little lighter. I think that is on one side. I think the fact that the Muslims have most of the oil is really making them mad. And I did notice that they jumped at the chance to go in a convert every Muslim they could when we invaded Iraq and when the tsnuami hit. Mother Terasa would be ashamed.

Some interesting facts about Islam: it's younger than Christianity by about 1250 years. Muhammad and Jesus come from the same family way back when. God made a covenant with Abraham that all the Prophets would come from his seed. Muhammid said he was a prophet like Jesus. A lot of Jews and Christians converted, but then Islam went corrupt like Christianity.

[The Doctor.]

13. You are absolutely correct...

I was once a 'born again Christian' who believed in the Rapture.

It took me a while to realize how arrogant I had become because of it.
I felt special, like I knew more than anyone, like I was transcendant.
Feeling like you hold the key to salvation is very powerful.
I LOOKED for the signs of the prophecies, I WANTED to see them. There is no doubt in my mind that these people want it bad enough to make it happen.

Check this out if you have a couple of minutes;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2974953#2975051

[KarenS]

4. I know they do,,,, and that's just too dam bad.

I just do not understand why they think everyone should believe the way they do,,,,, want religon?? fine, get it!! just do not try to convert everyone else. If what they are doing is good and makes them better people, then others will naturally be drawn to it,,,, but this ramming stuff down others throats is so sick.

I think that the whole thing has gotten drunk with power and way out of control. This is not about god or Jesus' teachings any more. These folks are being manipulated by their "Leaders". Religon is being used to control the masses.

I've tasted their KoolAid and I will pass,,,,, (as you might guess, I am really bad to any one of them that has the misfortune of knocking on my door!!!!)

[seabeyond]

6. it is what i see in the fundie community in panhandle of texas

i keep talking, but no one believes me. lol. i dont know when it is going to become obvious to the people. maybe it is because my kids were in a fundie school, and i saw what this group was saying doing and creating is what was happening with them as a whole. so i have a front row seat seeing what and how they are creating

[orpupilofnature57]

7. Fundies forget the verse"On earth as it is in heaven" religionnotchristian

Should have kept Rover out of the coalition, Machiavelli is his savior.

[stray cat]

9. Fundies don't want a Christian world.

A Christian world would mean admitting that we have a responsibility to our neighbors - and to defend those who can't defend themselves. It means sharing our wealth to meet the needs of those around us.

There is no place for selfish greed in Christianity. I don't know what to call the goals of the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells of the world - but lets not call it Christianity. The fundametalists seem more life the wealthy self-rightous pharisees who persecuted Jesus rather than one of his followers.

[Az]

12. Limits of language

There are so many stripes and varieties of Christians that trying to cover all of them with the single appelation Christian is bound to create problems. I assure you a fundamentalist Christian would look at a liberal Christian and accuse them of not being a true Christian.

[The Magistrate]

20. Indeed, Sir

And to an un-believing observer of the dispute, it would seem by reference to the foundational texts that the fundamentalist would have the better case, unfortunately....

[leesa]

40. Except that they have neglected the words of Jesus Christ, whom they

claim is the one they worship. Leviticus and Revelations are not the teachings of Christ. Leviticus is a very late addition to the bible and it is clear in the bible that people will not know the day and time of His coming and that to second guess God is bad. So why are they violating their own commands from God?

[Igel]

73. By "very late", I assume you mean after the crucifixion.

Otherwise it's questionable.

And most scholars don't place it very late, unless you mean the canonization and the finalization of the Hebrew canon.

In any event, a number of people believe that all scripture is "God-inspired" (even if many don't). Maybe not many, but some. Others feel free to discard whatever it is they don't personally approve of.

Some even believe that if nobody knew God before Christ made him known ... one either has justification for the doctrine that the demiurge was the author of the OT, or Jesus had a hand in it.

[The Magistrate]

74. As Do All Persons, Ma'am

They abide by some words and ignore or contravene others.

Where, in either group, are the people who put aside all wordly possessions and spend their time entirely spreading the news of the Messiah's arrival?

"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found hard and not tried."

[orpupilofnature57]

28. Happens all the time ,I'm judged alot less by non-believers than shrubs

Righteous,

[The Doctor.]

10. You are correct.... and you may find this link interesting....

"At the time, most Americans were completely unaware of the militant agenda being preached on a daily basis across the breadth and width of America. Although it was called “Christianity” it can barely be recognized as Christian. It in fact was and is a wolf parading in sheep’s clothing: It was and is a political scheme to take over the government of the United States and then turn that government into an aggressor nation that will forcibly establish the United States as the ruling empire of the twenty-first century. It is subversive, seditious, secretive, and dangerous.<9>"


http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

[knitter4democracy]

16. I think you're on to something.

I was told once that, in order to have the Second Coming happen, we had to have Christians in every single county on earth. That, with changing names and borders all the time, has proven difficult, apparently.

They really want to bring on the Second Coming of Christ, but a careful reading of Scripture sure makes what they're doing sound like they're working for the wrong side. Of course, Jesus said that would happen . . .

[The Doctor.]

21. The worst part is....

The Book of John (Revelations) has armed them with the very tools they need to remain ignorant.

It says right in there that 'others will tell you you are wrong, there will be false prophets and blasphemers, but don't listen and hold true to your faith and you will be rewarded'. {paraphrased}

Basically, if anyone tells them something they don't want to hear, their faith has told them to ignore it because it's wrong... no matter how tempting it may sound. That's the scary part - the more reasonable you are, the more convincing you are, the more violently opposed they will be when you try to explain what's happening to them.

It's a lock.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2974953#2975051

[klyon]

58. yes, is it a cult?

Isn't that the first thing you are taught if you happen to fall into the claws of a cult.

KL

[The Doctor.]

66. Yep, same principles - prey on people's insecurities and

Presto! You own them.

[knitter4democracy]

69. It sure can feel that way.

I look back on when I was a member of the Church of the Nazarene (an evangelical Wesleyan church), and it feels cultish to me now.

[izzie]

14. This group must have not heard of the Enlightenment. My ---

church had heard of it. But then I came from the Unitarian and deism part and it was more in line with our founders. Their is hope as my whole family still believe like this and they are all Republicans. Church and state do not mix. Not all Republicans that think this way became Dem.

[Az]

17. That is an interesting junction in history

Until the age of enlightenment the Church essentially ruled society. Kings sat in their thrones at the churchs leave. Absolute authority was vested in God and his representitives were the clergy.

But as more and more factions of the belief developed and as our reach expanded to touch upon more societies the increasing diversity created a tension the Churchs could not overcome. The social stress caused by having one belief system mandate rules and limits to other beliefs within their boudaries created upheaval. This is turn lead to inefficiencies in trade and commerce which impacted everything.

The people eventually had to rise up and throw aside the dominance of the Church. The signing of the Magna Carta set down the notion of rights that did not come from Kings or Preists. This was the beginning of the end of Church rule of civil society.

But here is the interesting thing. The Churchs has to adapt. The people freed of the restraints exploded in a flury of exploration and discovery. They became enpowered. The Churchs had to adapt or be left in the dust. So they began to embrace notions of tolerance and open mindedness.

Now modern sects think nothing of embracing tolerance of other beliefs. They act as if this is perfectly natural. Yet this is not how religions developed. They are by their very nature predatory and exclusionary to other beliefs. But the Age of Enlightenment forced them to evolve.

Unfortunately the echos and memories of their time as rulers still exist within the actual Church infrastructures. Some have worn the shackles of tolerance out of an understanding that to not do so would have meant obsolesence. But now the means seem available for some of the more resistant strains to attempt to reassert their control. And thus they have cast aside the restraints on their belief system and discard the notions of tolerance and acceptance. They will sweep all false belief aside if given the chance.

[Joanne98]

18. Read "The Christian Mafia" articles............

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=98&contentid=1882

[The Doctor.]

32. Ummm.... that funny sign that Bush made....

It's 'Texas Longhorns' greeting... you know, the football team.

It's a down-home Texas sports thing.

The article you've cited seems to jump to many conclusions without much evidence.

I wouldn't get my information from that site.

(It looks like fun reading though...)

[klyon]

59. He never went to school at UT?

Should he be giving that sign? Did one of his daughters go their?
I guess a proud parent might support their child's school. Isn't a gang symbol also? This so confusing. Could be the sign of the devil or antichrist or something.

very confusing

[atommom]

19. I agree, and it's a frightening trend. But how are the rest of us

going to respond? They do have us boxed in quite nicely right now, and they are not going to stop pushing for more and more power. We need some kind of organized response that won't be shot down for "hatefulness" or "intolerance". Any ideas?

[Az]

22. We have to recognise that they have broken the Social Contract

They are not playing by the rules any longer. They have to either be brought back into the fold or we have to set aside our notions of tolerance and acceptance and directly act to oppose them.

[The Doctor.]

23. We are approaching critical mass...

I believe many people understand that something must be done, but any action will violently opposed and without the benefit of mediation.
They will use all tools at their disposal to destroy their opponents.

I wonder... what would Jesus do?

No, really, suppose the opposition to this 'trend' fought it under the banner of Christ... passively... exactly as Christ would have, or Ghandi for that matter.

[Az]

24. There are many ways to oppose them

The trouble is they have to be done. Opposition such as this is alien to our social structure currently. It feels wrong. Thus it is difficult to not only wake people up to the fact that there are those that are actively trying to force their views on the nation but that they have to actively oppose them in some organized way.

Furthermore the opposition if it is to remain in any way true to our ideals is going to have to embrace many different beliefs and nonbeliefs. Our dialog with each other has never been excellent but it has atrophied even beyond that meager level. We need to open dialog. We need to face each other and recognise our differences but embrace our shared ideals. We need to stand united against this force that is seeking to overwhelm all.

[The Doctor.]

25. The need to fight this somehow is a foregone conclusion...

The question is... How?

We have all truth on our side, but their manufactured truth has forced it's way into acceptance.

And knowing psychology as I do, most people do not want to 'wake up' to this.
People will bear the deliberate and gradual discomforts in order to avoid the sudden discomfort of realization and responsibility.

So the question is, how does one BEGIN to fight this properly and with a winning strategy.

Would simply stepping up and declaring war be appropriate?
Such as writing a book - (which I'm currently working on) - and then raising awareness to a level that provokes a response?

here's something a little more esoteric... but I believe it;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2974953#2975051

We need a strategy.

{OE} My point about 'the banner of Christ' was the notion that we would need to use their own weapons against them... the question is how to implement that.

(Although I can picture peaceful protests outside of their establishment where people are holding pictures of Christ, praying, and pleading "please don't destroy the world" to the fundies. - that could really turn them on their heads.)

[Az]

26. I have been working on that question now for years

Education certainly seems to be part of it. I have considered writing a book myself. But there needs to be more. We need to begin advocating certain notions strongly that will form the bulwark of opposition to the religious right.

We have to make the notions of diversity and tolerance popular again. We have to reverse the trend to reject intellectual consideration of issues and nuance. We have to make it a joyfull thing for people of all beliefs and nonbeliefs to engage in meaningful dialog again.

This is where the post modern system dropped the ball. As implemented here it did not encourage dialog. And as groups fell away from each other the vacuum created by the absense of dialog created the opportunity the religious righ fell on.

[The Doctor.]

27. And now the polarization is nigh - insurmountable.

I've been working on a book, "The Deadly Meme" which explains why it is people embrace the ideological and how dangerous this is becoming.

I imagine that if I finish it (I'm terrible at follow-through), and am lucky enough to drum up publicity, it might serve as a wedge.

Once out, I can debate anyone on these issues and win, whether they are fundamentalists or not.

The idea would be to get a fight going, but be the side to wage war peacefully and intellectually.

Of course, I'm sure they'd all consolidate, call me a 'false prophet' and then fight dirtier and harder than ever 'in the name of the Lord'.

Would this be enough to burn them out?

{OE} - of course the key here is the publicity... once it got going, it would become an inexorable clash.

[Az]

31. I have a modified theory of memes

I suspect it ties it into other camps of psychology a bit better. I have a Freudian friend and I can even tie into her school of thought with it.

Memes as expressed by Dawkins and others are related to genes. And these are binary in nature. They are either on or off. But this doesn't seem to fit how the mind works. Instead there is an added measure for memes. They each come with their own emotional relevance.

Whenever we learn a new instruction or experience an event there is a degree of emotion associated with it. Whether it comes from the direct impact of the event (Fire hot!) or it gains its relevance from our emotional association with it's source the emotional relavance becomes associated with it.

Repetition and other methods can boost the emotional weight of a concept.

In effect what happens next is as our psyche is developed our mind performs constant comparisons of its acccepted memes. It compares them by their emotional relevance. If there are conflicting memes the weight of the supporting memes emotional relevance determine which concept is accepted by the mind.

Thus we see that the mind is an emotional device. It can make use of tools such as reason and critical thought. But even these come with their own emotional relevance. And they are only brought to bear when the mind has a balance of positions within it. Such a condition leads to stress and the mind will struggle to force the position to one side or the other. It will pull in whatever tools it has learned to rely on. Accuracy is not a consideration in the tools it learns to utilize. Instead it is the emotional weighting again.

Thus reason and rational thought, if they are relied on at all, are only pulled in for consideration if there exists doubt (the balance of positions). And even then the mind may instead look to other learned means of shifting the balance such as looking for signs, relying on social or peer pressure, anything to force the issue out of balance.

[The Doctor.]

39. It is that very emotional relevance

That allows a meme to transcend consciousness, thus effectively taking on a life of it's own.

We are only aware of those memetic aspects we can consciously grasp, the tip of the iceberg so to speak.

We need to go deeper - as you suggest by 'emotional relevance' to determine the roots of these creatures and weed them out.

Emotions, in many cases, are a means of abstracting information that we would otherwise be unable to interpret.

Something as complicated as 'love' is, I believe you would understand, merely a VERY complicated set of self-serving principles.

So complicated that merely refering to it as I have is not sufficient to describe the complex arrangements we construct to arrive at 'love'.

This particular deadly meme is comprised of Pain and Fear... a VERY powerful meme indeed. Add to that the disguise of 'glory and righteousness' and we're dealing with something truly horrific.

Beyond even the belief that 'If a Muslim dies killing a Jew, they will be rewarded with 24 virgins in the afterlife.', this thing is Engineered to operate on a vast scale.

Our fears will kill us.

[earthboundmisfit]

57. "Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to

hate, and hate leads to suffering." - Jedi Master Yoda

And as all Dominionists & terrorists know, fear is the ultimate tool.

So we need to know, what is the most powerful and effective weapon against fear? Education of course... but how do we educate someone who doesn't want or seek education? They have this "circular argument" (which forms a ZERO ironically=empty, without substance!) which makes it nearly impossible to reason with them.

But education by ENLIGHTENMENT will work - bring the dark force into the light and expose it, for all to see it as it truly is. We just have to keep bringing the WRONG of the Dominionist ideas out into the light in front of everyone. Secrecy is another of their tools, and once that's gone, it is not so easy to use fear.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

29. My feeling is that for all of the anti-Christian fear mongering.......

that goes on at DU, the reality is that the number of people who truly do believe in the 'Rapture' is quite small compared to those of us who not, they are a tiny minority in America and elsewhere.

To say that these Fundamentalists have the rest of us 'boxed in' is a little crazy.

[Az]

33. They don't have critical mass yet

But they have a critical voice in the process and are shifting the balance as we speak. There is no counter to their efforts. They dominate our society not in numbers but in effectiveness.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

51. They in no way dominate our society........

Ever watch T.V., go to a movie, walk down the street?

This domination of society idea is in no way verified by reality.

They have been and will remain a tiny minority whose bark is infinitely worst than their bite.

[cynatnite]

54. Tiny Minority, I agree, Domination, Yes

With the kind of influence they have over the media, they've managed to shape public opinion to the extent that all the scandals that would have brought down other presidents has been left by the wayside.

As I explained in my original post, in their eyes they've got god on their side and with a wave of the bible, a few well placed phrases (remember compassionate conservatism) a lot of moderates fall into believing the lines they feed us.

If this wasn't the case, at the very least, bush would never have gotten another term in office.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

63. Dominance over the media?

Could it be that you see dominance where there is simply disagreement?

Just because the MSM doesn't report on or take seriously every crackpot theory on DU doesn't mean it's been taken over by Dominionist Christians. It's amazing to me that both DU and Free Republic members see the MSM in the same light; firmly on the other's side....how can both be true at the same time?

Christians in this country have much less of an impact over public opinion than Brittany Spears, Donovan McNabb or Oprah.

[cynatnite]

67. no and here's why

When you look at who owns the major media outlets in this country and where their political contributions a pattern begins forming. Couple that with the loss of the Fairness Doctrine. When that happened, the mid-80's, I think, it started with a huge growth of talk radio. Limpballs got on the scene and without having anyone to answer to and not required to offer balanced views.

It all snowballed from there. Republicans credit the removal of the Fairness Doctrine with their huge wins in 1994. They like what happened so much that they even went further by working on more media consolidation to get their message out. PNAC followed in '97. There is a pattern of behavior here that is very unsettling.

This is easily found on various sites across the internet.

Here's a good start.

http://www.facsnet.org/issues/specials/telecom/death.php3

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

75. Then explain how Ralph Reed, Falwell and Robertson get more news time

than most Dems

[Eawyn]

52. They are the minority

and we shouldn't forget that. The majority of Americans, whatever you think of them, are historically basically salt-of-the-earth types. They want things to be basically good for everybody, but they are careful to take care of they and theirs first, but they are not ungenerous. They tend to think on issues for a while, and in the end be quite practical. They will resist change of any sort unless they can see the end result pretty well.

The fundies have done a good job of being part of their world, which features sincere belief and community in church, but telling them they are not doing enough, and the fundies will restore the world to a better place. The fundies often use guilt and emotion to be appealing.

The best way to cut them out of political power is to go around them. We can't possibly reach them, but we can reach middle America. As the fundies show their true faces ever more, they make themselves vulnerable. Laughter and a good message of the real, practical and moral goodness liberals have to offer will reach them eventually, I think....most of the time.

[The Doctor.]

34. They needn't be many...

Their tactics are HIGHLY effective. Their apparent 'righteousness' is unassailable and they are making very good use of that unassailability.

Imagine trying to tell these people how hateful they are.

I correspond with a very sweet 'born again Christian' who would never hurt a fly, she is kind, thoughtful and believes all queers should be swept of the face of the planet.

But when I tell her that that's hateful, she says, "No, God said it's this way."

There is no getting through to some of these people... and they are mounting a serious effort to bring biblical law to the world.

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

"Christ, please protect me from your followers."

[leesa]

42. You would be surprised. I am in an office area and I would estimate that

80% of the people in this area (a university, no less) have Fundie stuff in their office space and are believers in the End Times. It is far more prevelant than you probably think. Start to ask people around you.

[klyon]

60. and as times get harder more will become believers

and times will get harder no doubt about it

KL

[atommom]

43. Maybe it's not a literal "box", but we're dealing with our own qualms

about fighting back, as well as some very powerful emotional/psychological forces that they have turned to their own advantage. I'm living in Jesusland, and what I see scares me.

[A HERETIC I AM]

44. Make them look foolish.

It occurs to me that one way to point out to these types of people that their point of view has some flaws to it is to ask them about all the other gods of antiquity. What about the fantastic stories of miracles attributed to Mithra or Apollo or Horus? "No! all those gods and all their fantastic stories are myth! but MY god and all HIS fantastic stories, THEY ARE REAL!"

Nonsense. Truly nonsense and it should be pointed out at every possible opportunity.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Doctor.]

41. Wow, the hypocrisy. nt

[leesa]

37. They aren't spreading the word of God. Thay are spreading hate.

[otohara]

45. Don't Forget Greed

the me, me, me, my taxcuts crowd.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[A HERETIC I AM]

50. The "Love" of money is the root of all evil, but your point is true...

because god is a horrible money manager?

BTW...WELCOME TO DU!! :hi:

[immoderate]

48. The PNAC site is bursting with Jews! How does that fit?

Yeah I know they have a part in the Armageddon scenario. And they are being used by the fundy Christians. But they know that too.

The PNAC Jews, as far as I know, are not orthodox or fundamentalist. Why are they playing to turn this into a theocracy?

--IMM

[klyon]

62. maybe because Israel feels threatened by Muslims

and Christians support their existence
PNAC seems to be a vehicle to dominate the Middle East

KL

[immoderate]

68. Aahhhh!

"PNAC seems to be a vehicle to dominate the Middle East"

I think that explains it. Maybe the Jews think they're using the Christians.

--IMM

[cynatnite]

49. I'm so glad I posted this

I was afraid to at first thinking I would be lampooned as a freak. LOL

Growing up the way I did, I was afraid to bring up problems and questions I had when it came to christianity and the bible. It took me being here a while before I could gather the courage to actually put my thoughts and beliefs down.

What's great is that lightening hasn't struck me down :D

I think a lot of people are afraid like this. To stand up and boldly say it a person would get accused of being against god, unchristian and anti-american. It's intimidating as hell especially for those who grew up in a similar type of environment such as I did.

[Ladyhawk]

55. I'm an ex-fundy and believe me, these people are a serious threat.

They believe they are entitled to be leaders simply because they are the true elect of god. They have been one of the driving forces behind our fall from true freedom.

(I would say more, but I have a raging headache. :) )

[Perky]

56. RW fundies confuse evangelical Zeal and political power.

As a Christian...one who hangs in fundie circles at that...what I have noticed is that the rush to embrace the GOP while focused on moral values issues, is really not about making the world Christian.

It's about political power and revelance in a post-modern world. The problem is that they have substistuted the need for revival/repentanece/true evangelism....with get out the vote campaigns.

It is a poor and ineffective substitue for authentic evangelical faith. TRather then being a city shining on a hill they want to be the neighborhood bully.


Read what Jesus said about the pharisees.

[independentchristian]

61. Well, that's going to happen anyway, according to prophecy

Ever heard of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth?

It has nothing to do with voting or a stupid president of the United States, or banning gay marriage, or outlawing abortions or any of that.

According to prophecy, Jesus is supposed to return at the end of the tribulation period with a "heavenly army" and defeat the forces of the antichrist and his followers.

Of course you all don't believe that, but it is something that "Christians" do not have control over or anyone else for that matter, so I as a Child of God cannot create a "Christian World" and you as a non-believer cannot stop it.

So, while we still live in the world that we do, how about let's do like Albert Einstein said, because it's scriptural and just plain right and realize that "Nothing that I can do will change the structure of the universe. But maybe, by raising my voice, I can help in the greatest of all causes -- goodwill among men and peace on earth."

What you don't realize is that is the goal of 90% of Christians on this planet, and it is also the goal of most people on the planet. Everyone just has different beliefs as to what constitutes "right." But there are some things that we all agree upon. Let's work on those.

http://www.birthdisorders.com/synapse/data/1717/videos/Michael_Jackson__We_Are_The_World_.MP3

[mitchum]

65. mitchum wants fundies to hurry up and join their magic man in the sky

[Swamp Rat]

70. Me too!

[Az]

71. Az wants them to just let others live alongside them in peace