No meat for the poor.

[Lisabtrucking]

I have to say something regarding the spiteful lowering of the working poor food stamps. What is wrong with America? These people work at the lowest paying jobs and need the extra $50 to $60 dollar in food stamps they receive. The food stamps help them make ends meet. What does the bush team, and supporters want next? They are a bunch of evil doer's themselves. Bush was right to coin that phrase, "evil doer's" because he is the leader of the evildoer's.
These evildoer's are attacking the vulnerable and unfortunate people in America. What's wrong with this picture?
This Administration wants to control their womb, take the little food they have, they want their homes, and they want their dignity.
We must do something about these evildoers or we will be nothing but slaves to their high lifestyle, which I think we are already.

This administration and the supporter's of it, make me sick. Literally.
Let there be protest's all year. Let them be in every state, so the one's who can't afford to attend can go too one close to them.

Let us start taking America back from these evildoers.

[count_alucard]

1. yeah where's the beef huh?

until we don't choose a REAL candidate with COURAGE to take on this giggling mass murderer called George Bush, and keep selecting fraudulent wimps like John Kerry, we will eating cardboard for a long time.

[JimmyJazz]

11. who do you suggest *we* should have selected?

[count_alucard]

113. someone who doesn't run like a rabbit

after 12 hours on Nov 3, with some of the votes still being counted,

Someone who REPORTS FOR DUTY, not only talks about it.

And why did you quote the *we*? Because I have a slow post count? It's prejudiced and pathetic.

[JimmyJazz]

176. How dare you say my post is prejudice and pathetic -- you

know absolutely nothing about me. I put the "we" in quotes because you said "we" and not democrats and I'm not a democrat - o'kay! I did vote for Kerry, but I'm not a democrat.

And, for the record, I don't go by post counts - I was a newbie, too once - ya know?

[count_alucard]

216. well I am not a Democrat either

but I volunteered and voted for Kerry.

and EXACTLY, I used 'we' correctly, because not only Democrats voted for Kerry, most progressive voters did, so you didn't have to put them in quotes. I meant 'we' as in everyone on the progressive side.

[JimmyJazz]

232. You are so right! That's a great reason to call my post pathetic...

Oh, and prejudiced, too :eyes: How could I have been so foolish?

[count_alucard]

255. you sill haven't explained why then you quoted the 'we'

I might withdraw my charges. If you care, that is.

[JimmyJazz]

256. It meant, I am not "we" - m'kay. - I can't believe

you want to get into a flame war over some quotation marks. Talk about pathetic. :eyes:

[count_alucard]

265. flame war?

I am just trying to understand you. And yes, you are 'we'. Because you don't realize that I meant 'we' as everyone on the left, Democrat or not.

[queeg]

2. feed em soylent green

[Lisabtrucking]

4. Why not rice, you can get a 10lb bag for .99cents. n/t

[ashmanonar]

109. rice is good as part of a diet, but you can't make it the only thing.

you need somehting with protein in a diet, whether meat or vegetarian type foods (some of those are pretty expensive tho)

[Lisabtrucking]

168. There was a bit of sarcasm in that reply. .99 cent rice. n/t

[ashmanonar]

180. lol.

sorry, i took it literally. i live on a college meal plan. :puke:

[Undercover Owl]

118. feed them condoleezza RICE! (nt)

[ohkay]

3. I'm sorry,

I cannot agree. I think the Food Stamp program is rife with corruption and misuse.

The WIC program where mothers with small children can get generic brand milk, cheese, eggs etc. is a good program, but I think food stamps program should be eliminated.

[Lisabtrucking]

5. When was the last time you saw someone buying beer with a food stamp

card? I can't agree with you, I like to think of America as better then that, and what is wrong with someone getting some food stamps, who can't make ends meet with the low paying job they have?

[ohio_liberal]

160. I really think the program

should include personal necessities like soap and TP.

[murray hill farm]

224. cannot buy beer with food stamps...also..

cannot buy toilet paper or soap or cleaning supplies...just food..and not prepared food..just food and some seeds to grow food...but it must be uncooked food.

[tabasco]

7. The government just lost NINE BILLION dollars in Iraq ...

and you're carping about fucking food stamps. I'll just stop right here before I violate the TOS.

[Lisabtrucking]

12. Your darn right I'm complaining about food stamps. The nine billion

is lost forever. What are you going to do about the 9 billion? I guess I'll stop right here also before I violate rules also.

[tabasco]

17. I wasn't replying to you.

I was replying to ohkay.

[Lisabtrucking]

20. Sorry didn't follow the thread, I thought you were complaining about

me starting this thread.

[n2mark]

27. Take a minimum wage job

take care of your children, pay your rent or mortgage, pay your electricy or gas, pay your phone, pay your water, pay your insurance and tell me how much money do you have left for food for the month. Oh, I forgot, pay your childcare.

Now tell me about food stamps?

[solinvictus]

67. Been there, done that..

and it's no damn fun at all being one step away from losing what little you have. I think there should be subsidies for the working poor, but more importantly, what about some decent wages in the first place?

[ohkay]

75. some decent wages in the first place?

OK! now were talking!! much MUCH more sense than food stamps.

[bread_and_roses]

85. Decent wages, Yes. And a guaranteed national income, then

we can talk about eliminating food stamps.

[ohkay]

88. guaranteed national income?

huh?

what is that?

[K-W]

148. Everyone has a right to a very basic income regardless of whether

the economy can provide them a job or not. Basically making above poverty the bottom of our barrell. Its a socialistic policy.

[Bouncy Ball]

103. You forgot to mention

car payment and maintenance on said car. And any medical costs.

[AngryOldDem]

142. Also don't forget...

...unexpected repairs on said car, and medical emergencies. Any one of the two can spell disaster for an already- precarious household finance situation. If they both happen simultaneously...

[ohkay]

74. What's that got to do w/ anything?

[SammyWinstonJack]

136. Excellent comeback!

:yourock:

[JimmyJazz]

14. So fix the corruption - don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!

People need those food stamps to...erm...what do we call it? Oh yeah - EAT! Most people don't abuse the system and you want to throw it away because you decided it's rife with corruption - who are you? John Stossell?

[ohkay]

39. What's your solution to fix it?

How would you phase people off of food stamps? What is an adequate amount of food stamps? what should be allowed on food stamps?

and who's John Stossell?

[n2mark]

43. Crap

I hope you live on the streets someday, come back than and say the same thing.

[Pepperbelly]

262. John Stossel is an asshole, FTR, that is.

The easiest fix for food stamps is to make them usable only in magnetic format at the point of purchase, just like credit cards.

[bread_and_roses]

15. What FS corruption? What FS misuse?

Just what do you object to about a program that helps feed working families and the unemployed? They should go hungrier? They already go hungry all too often, since our poverty threshholds are artificially low. Just what do you want to see instead? Children begging in the streets? Or are you afraid someone might buy a bag of potato chips with their food stamps? You are the food police?

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ohkay]

33. Wow. You read a lot into

a short post. Yup. I called people lazy and stupid..

[ohkay]

34. WIC is only for babies and stops at age 1.

Nope. Age 5.

Don't let facts get in the way of your self righteous scolding though.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/wic/aboutwic/default.htm

[ultraist]

41. Ok, I stand corrected. Let's let children after 5 yo. starve

That's much better.

[Cats Against Frist]

237. WIC doesn't stop at age one

It stops at age 5. Not that I'm saying that's enough. That's just when it stops.

[ultraist]

246. Thanks for the correction, WIC does STOP at age 5

[Duncan Grant]

18. I don't agree but I would be interested to learn what you know.

Can you say more about the specific reasons why food stamps should be eliminated? :shrug:

[fishwax]

25. food stamp fairies, welfare queens, and other mythical creatures

what is this corruption of which you speak? Care to share statistics? :shrug:

[ohkay]

28. Can any of you discuss an issue?

Or just yell at me?? :mad:

Do some people use food stamps wisely? Yes. Do some people sell their food stamps or use them for junk food? Absolutely.

I worked in a grocery store to put myself through college, I saw people buy junk food, name brand foods, packaged foods, etc etc.

Some of you are going to get even MADDER at me, but I think the current welfare system is crap. There's no child care, so people can't afford to get a job! Poor education, no idea about nutrition? feed your kids cheeze-it's and coke.

You want stats and links etc etc, I could find them, I'm sure, but that's my OPINION. You know, free speech and everything?

Sometimes this board out freeps the freepers. :mad:

[Oak2004]

37. Perhaps you'd like to know why I have bought "junk food" with food stamps?

It's real simple: when you're starving -- yes, official diagnosed clinical starvation -- you had best buy the stuff with the most calories per buck. That's junk food, not veggies.

[ohkay]

73. That's terrible.

I'm sorry you went through that, I think it's horrible that ANYONE would have to go through that. But you can't tell me that rice is cheaper than junk food, or more nutritional.

[bread_and_roses]

93. We don't need food police

We are going to make the poor eat healthy, even though people in other income groups are also obese and contribute to national stats on obesity, its' health care costs, etc?

The reasons why people eat what they do are complex. They involve cultural factors, individual biochemisty, emotional needs, and who knows what all else. They also involve mothers tired of denying their children even the simple pleasures of a soda and some chips because they are too poor.

When I see nutritionists eating and feeding their children on a welfare/food stamps income for a month to learn what its' like, maybe then I'll have some respect for their opinions on what "the poor" should eat.

[KissMeKate]

175. amen, preaching nutrition to the poor doesnt work with TV selling twinkies

to their kids.

[conflictgirl]

249. People who get food stamps are less likely to have TIME to cook.

You know, because they're working their 2 or 3 jobs to make Bush proud of them. :eyes:

There's no question that they would be healthier and would save money if they made some rice, but after two jobs working on one's feet, it's faster to reach for the Doritos.

[KissMeKate]

173. I bought more calories with my buck too when I was poor.

fresh vegetables are expensive compared to mac and cheese in a box. I bought frozen when I could.

Its because we subsidise grain through farm subsidies to archer daniels midland (et al) and not veggies.

Its a smart way to get all your calories if you have to choose between calories and nutrition, which can sometimes be the case for poor people.

[JimmyJazz]

45. You wanna know something--- I agree with you on some of your points.

I've been in line behind people who are paying with food stamps and have seen what they have purchased and have thought to myself - "damn, I get a whole lot more food for my money than what they are getting and a whole lot more nutritional value out of my purchases." People need to be educated in nutrition and basic meal preparation.

But, if your suggestion is to eliminate the program, then I vehemently disagree with you.

I want an overhaul of the system that includes some basic meal purchase/preparation classes - in the long run, these types of programs would save the government money.

What do you suggest?

[ohkay]

48. THAT I could get behind

an overhaul of the system that includes some basic meal purchase/preparation classes - in the long run, these types of programs would save the government money.


I'm pretty fically conservative. I think most welfare or assistance programs are cycles of despair. I think if we spent more money on job training, education and GOOD child care, we would be doing a much better service to the poor, the economy and the longterm health of this country than handouts.

[ohkay]

49. fiscally, also, mandatory speeeling lessons!

[JimmyJazz]

58. Off Topic: Once you post, you have an hour in which you can edit

so that you can correct speeling (:P) errors.

I'm not really sure I understand the concept of "fiscally conservative." That sounds as if you don't want to give money to the poor. But, you sound as if you just don't want the money you give to be abused and that's different. That's being fiscally prudent - a wise trait to have.

No one here wants to throw their money away - that's foolish. But be careful not to sound as though you want a program eliminated because people should be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps or because a few bad apples have corrupted the system beyond repair.

I don't think that's what you mean to say. Am I wrong?

[ohkay]

61. Yes. Thank you,

You articulated what I want better than could.

get out of my head!

Not elminated, I'll back up. Drastically overhauled.

[JimmyJazz]

72. On that we can agree. Within the past few months, Time

ran an article regarding obesity and nutrition which basically stated that Americans are fat because we eat too many processed foods which don't stay with the body as long which means we need to eat more.

The article suggested that people of lower socio-economic status tend to be more obese because they eat more processed foods. Why? They haven't been educated in proper nutrition. Therefore, if the system were overhauled to include nutrition/basic meals classes - people would not only get more food for their money, but they would not become as heavy and would become less of a burden on the health care system because they would be healthier people. I see that as a win/win situation.

Now, how do we convince the government?

[ohkay]

90. I don't know. They won't listen to me...

[JimmyJazz]

91. who's they? DU or the government?

:)

[ohkay]

94. HAHA!! Both!

[SmokingJacket]

140. It's not just education.

I've observed myself over the last few years, from being a single person on a very limited income, to having more money, to having kids, and less money, and so on.

STRESS is what leads to purchasing junk food.

I don't do it often, because I'm a health nut, but the times I buy my kids frozen pizzas or stop at a fast food place are the times when I'm alone, have two hungry, unhappy kids, can't face wheeling the damn cart the through the vegetable aisle, have no time to wash, chop, steam, and serve the broccoli.

Because I'm married and have enough time and money to cook, my family eats very well. But I **know** what the allure of those cheap TV dinners is: you take two minutes to buy it, two minutes to serve it, your kids are happy, no clean up, and NO MORE STRESS.

Of course in the long run you have fat, unhappy kids. But in the moment -- and when you're poor you don't look ahead very far -- you've done it, you've survived.

It's pretty condescending to assume that people who eat junk food are stupid. Day to day survival can be hard for some people, and anything that makes it easier will be taken advantage of.

[conflictgirl]

250. Yes, absolutely!

I know much more about nutrition than the average person. But since I went back to school full-time about 18 months ago, our diets have pretty much gone to crap except for when I'm on semester breaks. I have three kids and a husband who works long hours at a very stressful job, and when I reach for the unhealthy meals it's because I don't have TIME to do anything else.

I think it's unfair to assume that people eat poorly because they're ignorant about nutrition. Why not address the time debt in our country? The US gets the least vacation time and I believe works the most hours of any Western nation - are we somehow supposed to do all that and fit in time to prepare fresh, nutritious meals too? Then throw in the fact that a lot of us grew up eating that way for the same reasons and therefore we have no idea how to prepare better foods even though we know which better foods we should be eating, and the massive advertising budget for the junk food, and that leaves me with little reason to be surprised that the American diet is so poor.

[Lindacooks]

245. Well, obesity is a complex subject that has many variables.

Including depression, ethnicity, family history (your genes), as well as money, plus a lot of things that we just don't understand. I'm not saying that these things automatically make you fat, or are an excuse, it's just that reality is much more complicated than simply being educated in nutrition.

[eridani]

114. How much time do you spend cooking it?

Now try doing it with three crap jobs that amount to 60-70 hours a week.

[fishwax]

53. I didn't yell at you or rob you of your free speech

You repeated, without any supporting evidence, a common talking point of the right-wing critique/assault on an important part of the social safety net. I implied that corruption in food stamps, like Reagan's much-repeated and still widely-believed comments about welfare queens, is a myth, a figment of the country's collective imagination.

I'm not going to deny you saw people purchase junk food with food stamps, but I will say a few things about the situation. First, I've known numerous people who worked in grocery stores, and none of them with whom I discussed the issue considered it a problem. Second, there were a few people who would complain about it, but when I pointed out to them that the people who buy canned veggies with FS don't stick in your memory but the one in a hundred who buy junk food do, and then asked them to go for a couple of weeks and really consider how many people used FS w/o issue, they all agreed (some quite surprised) that it wasn't a big problem.

Finally, opinions are fine, but when you advocate eliminating an program which many here care about, consider important, and might even rely on or have relied on, don't be surprised to see people expect something more than your opinion, or to respond simply with their own. Don't take it too personally. I think your earlier post lacked tact, but if you stick around here I think you'll find plenty of great discussion.

[ohkay]

59. You're right,

The discussion is getting better. that's good. I don't enjoy being treated like I'm Rush Limbaugh because I don't agree 100% with all Democratic issues.

More about me? I work in college financial aid. My job, is giving away money and figuring out who deserves what money. I fight with the Department of education for table scraps. Do you know how many Pell Grants could have been funded by the money paid to Armstrong Williams? I see people job the government EVERY day.

I see people with $50,000 in savings on food stamps. I see people who fiddle with the "business debt" of their small business to qualify for welfare, rent control etc even though they live much better than I do.

[fishwax]

77. I'm glad you've waited it out

I agree with you about people jobbing the government (and don't get me started on Armstrong Williams :eyes:). Personally, I think that people buying beer and chocolate cake with FS are pretty small fish in that pond, particularly when compared with those you mention in your last paragraph. But I'd certainly be open to compassionate ways to reform the system to help prevent corruption as well. Here in Oklahoma, if I'm not mistaken, they severely limit what you can purchase with the aid programs, so I don't even think it's possible to purchase things like beer with the equivalent of food stamps here anymore. I might be wrong about that, though.

By the way, welcome to DU :hi:

[ohkay]

82. Thank you

I've been here for a while, but I lurk.

this is why! I'm not "liberal enough". which is a strange thing to hear for a Mass lefty who attends peace rallys and gives money to Move.org.

You can't buy beer with fs. You can sell them though. In MA, you are not restricted to what you can buy. Meaning you can shop at higher end grocery stores, and delis and the like.

[Lisabtrucking]

86. That is way different then Florida. Nothing paper, no fried foods or

any food cooked by the deli. No over the counter medicine, and I'm sure there are other things. I'm not sure of all of them.

[EC]

95. I don't know about Mass, but here in Wi, they've switched to a charge

card, so there is no way of selling them any longer, nor can they buy alittle and get change like they used to, since every bit is accounted for on their accounts...

[Lisabtrucking]

97. I thought WI didn't have any programs anymore. I have an aunt in

Wisconsin who could really use the help. she had a stroke that left her almost dead. she can't move around like she us to and lost her job, she's 65 so she gets SS, but she told me there are no programs in Wisconsin. We have an aunt that lives in Texas who goes to Mexico and gets her her medicines because she can't afford them here, and my aunt in Texas sends them to her.

[EC]

104. Now the programs require you go into job training

and there is only (I think) 18 months allowed where you have to find a job by that time...but I'm not sure, but I think there are still programs for the elderly...if she's 65 isn't she getting Medicare too? Tell her to go to Social Services and check, there are food stamps (she can even apply on line)here's the link, she should qualify as disabled...http://dhfs.wisconsin.gov/foodshare/fseligibility.htm

[Lisabtrucking]

106. she gets Medicare, but it don't pay for her med's and this new

bull crap pharmacy bill thing is a scam for the pharmacy company's. She says she already checked, and there was no help. After she gets done paying for her apartment and bills, she is broke. My cousin's her son and daughter have been doing the best they can.

Times are getting really hard I think for everyone, But Bush's Friends.

[EC]

108. The program changed in October, if she checked before

that, tell her to go to that link I gave you, and go through the Asses program...I just did it and even I qualified for $10. in food assistance...and last year I didn't qualify for anything...

[Lisabtrucking]

110. Thanks I will tell her, I bet she didn't know if it just changed. n/t

[fishwax]

143. they've switched to cards in OK, too

so that corruption (which I don't really think was that big of a problem to begin with, particularly relative to the ways in which the rich cheat the government) is that much more difficult. And they can't purchase anything but generics or specified brands which are priced low.

[ultraist]

98. You can sell the credit card that must be used with ID?

Paper food stamps are no longer used in most if not all states.

What "you see" doesn't seem to reflect reality.

Do you have any links to any FACTS on the level of corruption with food stamp credit cards?

BTW, it's MOVEON.ORG not MOVE.ORG It seems like if you donated to that org, you'd know the name. hmmm...

[SOS]

267. The maximum benefit

for an individual is $37.25 a week.
That won't buy much in a expensive grocery store.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/fsp/applicant_recipients/fs_Res_Ben_Elig.htm

Meanwhile, over at the Pentagon, $2.3 TRILLION has disappeared with no accounting.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main325985.shtml

[ultraist]

96. Food stamps is mean tested. NO ONE with 50k in savings is eligible

In fact, an individual can only have up to 2k in assets excluding ONE car and the roof over their head.

Now, did you REALLY see someone with 50k in savings get food stamps?

90% of food stamp recipients are BELOW the Federal Poverty level.
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/indicators98/APND_A2.PDF#search='food%20stamp%20requirements'

Your anecdotal evidence is extremely difficult to believe.

Do you realize how many people in this country live in poverty? Compare that to how many people receive food stamps.

Provide some facts please.

[ebayfool]

111. "...see people with $50,000 in savings on food stamps." I call bullshit on

you right here, right now, based on a bullshit statement like that. The U.S. Department of Agriculture establishes guidelines for the program in all states (including MA). There are hard cash at hand (savings fall in that category, yes?) & resource guidelines as well as what FS can be used for. You should try to actually learn something @ the program & the people it is designed to help.
-----------
http://www.fns.usda.gov/fsp/retailers/eligible.htm

Households CAN use food stamp benefits to buy:

Foods for the household to eat, such as:

breads and cereals;
fruits and vegetables;
meats, fish and poultry; and
dairy products

Seeds and plants which produce food for the household to eat.

Households CANNOT use food stamp benefits to buy:

Beer, wine, liquor, cigarettes or tobacco;

Any nonfood items, such as:

pet foods;
soaps, paper products; and
household supplies.

Vitamins and medicines.
Food that will be eaten in the store.
Hot foods

In some areas, restaurants can be authorized to accept food stamp benefits from qualified homeless, elderly, or disabled people in exchange for low-cost meals. Food stamp benefits cannot be exchanged for cash.
------------
http://www.fns.usda.gov/fsp/faqs.htm#15
The Food Stamp Program served an average of 17.2 million people each month during Fiscal Year 2002, and cost $20.7 billion.
------------
http://www.fns.usda.gov/fsp/faqs.htm#13
Based on a study of data gathered in Fiscal Year 2002:

51 percent of all participants are children (18 or younger), and 66 percent of them live in single-parent households.
54 percent of food stamp households include children.
9 percent of all participants are elderly (age 60 or over). \
79 percent of all benefits go to households with children, 17 percent go to households with disabled persons, and 7 percent go to households with elderly persons.
36 percent of households with children were headed by a single parent, the overwhelming majority of whom were women.
The average household size is 2.3 persons.
The average gross monthly income per food stamp household is $633.
59 percent of participants are female.
42 percent of participants are white; 35 percent are African-American, non-Hispanic; 18 percent are Hispanic; 3 percent are Asian, 2 percent are Native American, and 1 percent are of unknown race or ethnicity.

-----------
Income and Resources. Most households must meet the gross monthly income guidelines listed below. Households must also have less than $2,000 in resources. Homes, some retirement accounts, earned income tax credits and most vehicles are not counted as a resource.

Note: Most households with members who are disabled or at least 60 years old do not have to meet the income guidelines listed below, because medical and other costs are deducted from their income; also these households are allowed up to $3,000 in resources.


-----------
additional info found in 2 minutes just popping google

Households access their food stamp benefits through an Electronic Benefit Transfer (EBT) card which is swiped at the grocery store like a debit/credit card.

how in the hell can someone sell their FS to buy beer if they are using an EBT card?
-----------
Employment Rules.
Some adults must agree to look for work -- or attend an employment and training program - in order to receive food stamp benefits. Adults are exempt from the employment rules if they are:

• already working and earning at least $154.50 (before taxes) per week;
• age 60 or older;
• physically or mentally unable to work;
• receiving Temporary Assistance (TA) and complying with TA work rules;
• caring for a child under 6 or for an incapacitated household member;

(note: if the adult household member caring for a child under 6 receives TA and

food stamps, the adult may be required to perform workfare);
• receiving Unemployment Insurance Benefits;
• college students enrolled at least half-time (must also meet food stamp student eligibility rules); OR
• a full-time participant in a drug/alcohol rehabilitation program.

You really think people should have to jump through more hoops to get food for their families just to reassure you that you're not getting jacked on what taxes you pay? Get pissed @ your taxes getting wasted in a way that really counts as getting jacked, there's a whole universe of crap getting $$$ wasted! A program that doesn't provide enough assistance for much more than the crappy macaroni/cheese & rice & beans you're pushing isn't the taxpayers biggest problem right now.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KissMeKate]

177. your selective anecdotal evidence of $50,000 in savings from food stamps

I dont believe that for one second. You are damaging your credibility with stupid claims like that.

Plus, an anecdote here and there does NOT represent the whole.

[SammyWinstonJack]

141. I heard some idiot on CNBC last night use the term

'Welfare Queen'. Larry Kudlow? He was 'interviewing' a repug senator about **'s budget and how it may not go far enough in reducing the deficit. :spank: Anyway, he (Kudlow) just had to throw out that term, as a last word on the subject. I didn't catch the whole 'interview' and the use of that term made me switch the channel. :puke:

[fishwax]

149. oh no, I'd hate to see it make a comeback ...

i'd've changed the channel too :puke:

[SammyWinstonJack]

244. Not sure the term ever went away, but yes I agree

I was surprised to hear the term used within the context of bush**'s budget rape of the lower class and poor not being 'enough' to combat the deficit. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer and the 'middle class' pays for it all, with higher taxes. Funny these corporate whores never mention that the welfare they collect costs taxpayers much more then social welfare ever could. They are Greed piggies.

[EC]

You're right about the other problems, but they don't get fixed

by elimination. They get fixed with education and a living minimum wage. If we are "the richest nation on earth" as we like to boast, there is no reason on earth that there are jobs that cannot be lived on without starving or freezing. Other countries with unemployment problems take care of their citizens, retrain them on their dime, feed them and find them living wage jobs after the training. But no, not here whenever there is a Republican in office. The first time we had homeless (other than the depression) was when Reagan was in office, at the time I worked in an office next to a poultry place, I'll never forget one winter morning when I looked out the window and there was an elderly woman digging through the dumpster for scrapes...that's what happens when the food stamp program is cut...yes I've seen people on them make bad choices in groceries, but most of them were young mothers who were kids themselves and soda and chips with macaroni and cheese IS a meal in their minds. I think some of the co-op programs work better where they get bags of groceries, which are usually geared towards healthy diets, but those have been cut last term of this great President's time in the White House...as were the school breakfast and lunch programs. Also cut is childcare, and school for training, unless you don't earn enough to even pay utilities...let alone rent...rent control is gone, he's now cutting energy assistance...I really don't know how some are going to make it 4 more years...and buying name brand food is not cheating the system, it's falling for advertising (their probably the same that were talked into voting for this Asshole in office)

[cap]

131. so what...

if my tax dollars are wasted so that someone eats a little something above and beyond the bare minimum. I am not that cheap. You can only buy so many filet mignons with food stamps.

[lapislzi]

162. You make an interesting point

Maybe while people are waiting in those interminable lines to speak to their caseworker, there could be some nutrition education. A short film "how to get the most from your food stamp dollars" that explains healthy eating, good choices. You should also know that many prepared/packaged/processed foods are off-limits to the food stamps program.

WIC is a good program that provides nutritious food. But it is limited in both scope and availability. It also wouldn't help, for example, the elderly.

And finally, yes, the welfare system is sadly lacking in affordable (read: FREE) child care.

[PsychoDad]

261. I think you have a point here...

"but I think the current welfare system is crap. There's no child care, so people can't afford to get a job! Poor education, no idea about nutrition? feed your kids cheeze-it's and coke."

On another thread we were talking about the old surplus programs, where one could get veggies, meat, butter and cheese.

As someone who has been on FSP and who knows many who still are, here are my humble insights.

The current system is not designed to help someone OUT of poverty, but simply as a subsistance program. You receive x amount of dollars of food assistance, and so to make it streach you buy a LOT of pasta and other high carb foods which tend to be cheaper. Fresh fruits and veggies? Forget it! too expensive. :( And how many people out there without the education really understand good nutritional concepts ?

There is no money for education so you may gain important skills toward employment, no money for decent clothes to attend an interview in, no money towards child care or transportation to a job, and often, as many FS reciepiants do not meet the income guidelines, no medical or mental care to help one be healthy enough to get and keep a decent job. State programs like Indiana's "Impact" program are a joke. They serve only to thin the ranks of people reciving FS by making the requirements rediculously hard or complicated. Here in rural Indiana if you do not have a car, you do not have anyway to get around - But thats not their fault, if you don't comply you will lose your benifits, the result: One less family on asistance. DFC's mission acomplished.

The only folks these programs help find employment for are the case workers who judge your needs. That's not to say that there are no good case workers, in my personal experience I have met one.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[ohkay]

32. thanks,

You're doing a great job of compassion there!!

I differ in OPINION on you, but instead of backing up your stand you hurl insults. nice.

[LynnTheDem]

122. It's better to jail & execute 100 innocent people than let a guilty one go

free...it's better to starve millions than let a few abuse the system...

Amazing, isn't it, how some people think this way. I'd far rather have a few abuse the system and millions are fed, than cut the system to spite the few and starve the many.

As always a good question for these "compassionate" types to ponder would be; "What would Jesu do"?

Love your posts! :)

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[miss_kitty]

36. yeah. I hope you aren't standing behind me in line when I don't

have enough money for my groceries and the $10 in FS I get is all used up.

What sort of bs comment is that? with that kind of logic, we should close banks, and S&Ls, because people rob them, and white collar criminals defraud them-there's some corruption for you. And credit card fraud is rife, and growing every day. Time to get rid of them. Let's not forget car thieves-get rid of the cars.

By all means-punish poor people more because a small number of greedy middle-class administrators can't keep their grubby little hands out of the till.

"The WIC program where mothers with small children can get generic brand milk, cheese, eggs etc. is a good program..."
What? are you saying poor people aren't worthy of non-generic brands? Is that your problem with food stamps? Poor people having choice?

[ohkay]

42. "are you saying poor people aren't worthy of non-generic brands?"

Are you saying I should pay for it?

[miss_kitty]

46. Um, you didn't answer my question

[ohkay]

56. Ok, then no.

they shouldn't use food stamps for non- generic purchases. My opinion.
flame away.

[miss_kitty]

64. thanks for the answer and the big assumption about me

yes. Taxes are collected for the purpose of making shit better for everyone. A rising tide lifts all boats and the like.

There is a low-down mentality that comes to some people about being poor in this avaricious thing-oriented culture. About having only the cheapest crap available. Hell, I think there should be clothes stamps and tampon stamps, and free medical and dental care for the impoverished. and yes. If you can pay taxes, I think you should pay for it. If the wealthiest and the corporations paid their fair share, we could have all that, and lighten the tax burden on the likes of you at the same time.

[progmom]

50. Yes.

Yes. It's the society we have established here in America. We take care of our citizens who are in need. People with means are taxed so that our citizens are not dying of starvation or exposure to the elements.

You know, I can sometimes see you're coming from. When my brother gets himself in a financial pickle and I loan or give him money, it irks me to no end to see him spending some of that money on cigarettes or a magazine. But then I give myself a mental slap upside the head. Once that money is gone, it's not mine anymore, and I really don't have the right to say how it is spent.

[ohkay]

55. No, I can't agree with that

I have no problem helping people out of jams. What I don't like is people staying on food stamps, assistance, or whatnot. Do you give money to charity? So do I. But I make sure the places I'm donating to are responsible with the money. Same thing w/ public assistance.

[miss_kitty]

69. hey I get majorly vetted for the medical and other assistance I get

I don't know what candy-assed state you live in that just gives hunks of money to cheating lying lazy thieving poor, but I can say based on the knowledge (or lack thereof) you have displayed about this particular system, I can see why you feel the way you do. But the facts upon which you base your opinion are incorrect.

[ultraist]

99. Wrong again on your "facts" there are strict time limits for people w/out

kids

[Undercover Owl]

119. yes, YOU should pay for it.

ONLY you. Because YOU are responsible to pay for EVERYTHING those welfare slobs get. Every last penny!


...those are MY tax dollars going to those slacker druggie retarded promiscuous multi-colored heathen losers!..

[LynnTheDem]

123. Ahhh yes there it is...the selfish me me me greed factor.

I'm so thankful I don't have that kind of mind-set. THANK YOU, GOD!

[ScreamingMeemie]

229. Are you saying you'd rather eat dirt if you ever have the need? Are you

willing to live up to what you are suggesting? What if you lost your job tomorrow? Kroger sells name brands 10 for $10 all the time. These shouldn't be given to the working poor? I seriously hope you never have to "eat" your words bub. :hi:

[philosophie_en_rose]

248. Are you saying you've bought the right to judge?

Sometimes non-generic brands are actually the cheapest available items. It's called a sale.

In addition, I call bullshit on the idea that you're paying for someone else's purchases.

1) Food stamps, welfare, and other benefits are not free. Participants have to complete tasks that are equal to working full-time. In Washington, for instance, a person must complete 40 hours of qualified activities in a week.

2) The working poor (the majority on public benefits) contribute a lot to both the economy and the standard of living in this country. If it weren't for the servers being paid minimum wage (or less!) for instance, others would not be in a position to have affordable meals.

3) You are not paying for her brand-name toilet paper. You are paying for the corporate welfare that allows companies to exploit their workers, outsource jobs, and otherwise screw the public into paying for their workforce to live. (See walmartsucks.com)

4) Even if your presumptions were correct, your attitude does nothing to assist alleged "welfare queens" (who I assure you do not exist) to develop the self-determination necessary to build a life.

[EC]

51. You "think" it is rife with corruption and misuse? There have been allot

of changes that pretty much eliminate cheating...So you would want to let families go hungry or have to go to a local food line to eat, because you "think" there is missuse? How about looking for proof of missuse before you decide an issue as life and death as this could be?

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

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[Blue_Tires]

167. thanks..i was waiting for someone to make that point

too bad it took 102 posts

[LeftyMom]

128. Ever applied for food stamps?

LeftyDad lost his job last year and it took 6 months to find another. We applied for food stamps in the meantime, because LeftyKid and I have some pretty substantial food allergies so we do have a fairly high food budget out of medical necessity and we couldn't afford it on my income and his unemployment insurance.

You have to bring in just about every paper that's ever had your name on it, down to second grade spelling tests. You wait for hours, fill out more forms, wait again, come back another day... Then you get photographed and fingerprinted, your information gets checked to see if you are collecting food stamps or other benefits somewhere else or if you have a high bank balance someplace, they check with the DMV to make sure the value of your car isn't too high and finally if you're lucky you get a little ATM style card with your food stamp benefits on it.

Then you repeat the whole business every month or two when a mistake is made and you don't get your benefits or they are too low. There are no appointments and the wait is long, so this means several days off work to get set up and then a day or two every benefit cycle (three months) if (more like when) there's an error. All for maybe three hundred bucks a month. Scammers are better off doing something else, there's not much money in scamming food stamps (assuming you can, it would be tough here) for the amount of time required.

[LeftyMom]

129. The problem with WIC is that it isn't very versatile

My son is allergic to dairy products and eggs. If he were to get WIC (and we qualify by income so he could) we'd have to drag ourselves accross town to qualify for a couple boxes of cereal a month, a couple bottles of juice and some peanut butter or beans. (It isn't worth the time off work for less than twenty dollars a month of food my son can actually eat.) They offer lactaid type milk when a doctor requests it for a patient but my son is dairy allergic rather than lactose intolerant so that does him no good. They don't offer soy, rice or almond milk, which my son can have. Because WIC is a agriculture program and not a human services one they don't offer many alternatives for children with allergies.

The few months we collected food stamps we were able to buy plenty of food my son could eat. If we'd been stuck with WIC food or whatever a food pantry could scrounge up for us I don't know what we would have done.

[eleny]

159. you are flat out wrong

i spent my career in our state social services quality control division reviewing the program and know first hand that you are flat out wrong.

[ohio_liberal]

163. I dunno about rife with corruption

but it does have problems. My foster son's mother calls people to buy her food stamps (it's actually card) all the time. I guess the going rate is .50 on the dollar.

[trotsky]

215. And here we have the crux of the liberal-conservative divide.

Liberals would rather let a few people cheat than have anyone starve.

Conservatives would rather let a few people starve than have anyone cheat.

[OnionPatch]

263. Lol, ain't that the truth

[Cuban_Liberal]

6. A relatively inexpensive social safety net program that works well.

By all means, let's just gut it, Mr. President!

:eyes:

[Haymare22]

10. If not for......

...food stamps I wouldnt have got thru college with a kid to raise. I got thru and got off stamps. Got on with living and payin taxes.

[Cuban_Liberal]

13. You and 20, 30, 50 million other people, I wager.

One of the best programs funded by our tax dollars and those---ASSHOLES---- want to underfund it.

:argh:

[Township75]

8. We all need to dig deeper into our pockets to help those in need..

I donate regularly to various charities...now I will have to donate more.

You and everyone at DU needs to do the same. We can make that difference that Bush can't.

[JimmyJazz]

9. Jeebus - I think you hit a trifecta with this post!

[AlCzervik]

21. pass the popcorn!!!

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[Lisabtrucking]

22. I hear you, but be very careful with what you say because we are

being watched very closely, and not by mod's. These evildoers would like to throw a bunch of us in jail for being terrorists.

[guitar man]

23. Bush is such an asshat!

The man has no clue what being in need is about, but then most of the silver spoon club doesn't.

Let him keep fucking around though, it will come back to bite his ass. If they keep hacking away at public assistance, his corporate masters will be forced to raise wages or face a worker revolt. We middle class taxpayers have been subsidizing a good portion of what a lot of these low paying professions should be paying in wages.

[Nikia]

24. All Americans should have a right to eat

Food stamps is a good idea. Some people complain about food stamps being used to buy "luxury" items, but really what is the big deal if poor people want an occaisional higher priced item. Some people seem obsessed with the idea that poor people should only eat the cheapest, lowest quality food. Personally, I am always inclined to donate higher priced items and brands to food pantries and such because I know that it really is a luxury to them, not something taken for granted. I remember being a poor teenager dreaming of real Frosted Flakes and Kool aid that my parents were too poor to buy.

[ohkay]

31. It's not the luxury items,

it's the lack of nutritional education. hot dogs and soda are not food! Cooking chicken, rice, beans and a salad will take you twenty minutes, and is healthy and cheap!

[Oak2004]

38. And have you actually *priced* such a meal?

It's much more expensive than hot dogs.

[ohkay]

40. menu:

10 lbs rice- $2.99
1lb beans - $.99
whole chicken- $5.99

salad- well, depends on the year. lets go w/ $5.00

hotdogs? 8 for $2.99

which do you think will feed you for longer?

[eridani]

115. Were you planning on eating the rice and beans raw?

What if you are living someplace without cooking facilities, or in your car?

[Cats Against Frist]

172. You're not going to be living anywhere with kids in your car

You're going to be in hot water, and your kids are going to be in DCFS custody.

[LeftyMom]

254. BS

I know a lady who lived in a car for *three years* with her son. CPS knew what was up but they didn't do anything because her son is autistic and they didn't want to try to place him. (I can't say I blame him, who 's going to take in a seven year old who doesn't talk, wears diapers and takes more meds than the average nursing home?) The only reason she ever got a place is because her adult child took her and his younger brother in.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

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[Kathy in Cambridge]

154. Bull

you live in Boston. Show me where you can get food that cheap. I shop for a food pantry weekly and the prices that you give are way off.

[Scout]

79. read Nickel and Dimed...

many times the poor do not have any or adequate cooking facilities, refrigeration, freezers.

if you are living in a cheap hotel room, or your car, or an efficiency apartment you may be limited to what you can cook over a one burner hotplate, or a small toaster over or microwave. some places don't allow cooking in your room at all. and what if you are living in your car?

sometimes you are forced to go to 7-11 and get a microwave chili dog, or get packaged or junk food at the grocery store.

[knitter4democracy]

147. Yes!

That book really clarified a lot of things for me. Also made me hate Walmart even more . . . :mad:

[fishwax]

150. Excellent recommendation

and good points. That was a great book.

[Cats Against Frist]

178. Anyone of those three things: hotplate, micro, toaster oven

can fix a reasonably healthy and cheap meal. Don't go harshing on this poster because he or she suggests that nutritional education is important -- it's what the goddamn WIC program was founded for -- because children need good food, and parents, even poor ones should be responsible for getting them good food -- especially if they're getting paid for it.

I shop at Aldi, which takes food stamps, and you can buy VERY healthy food there, VERY cheaply. They get vegetables and fruits that the other grocers can't sell -- which are still good, they're just not perfect -- a big can of soup and some fresh veggies won't cost you that much more than a pack of hot dogs, ketchup, mustard and buns. They have cheap granola and multi-grain cereals, yogurt, cheese, whole grain breads, fresh and frozen vegetables, cheap lean meats, milk, grains, legumes, etc.

There is NOTHING wrong with advocating nutrition counseling for the poor. I sympathize if there's nowhere to cook, but there are going to be FEW situations in which a person who has kids will be allowed to keep them, if they're living in a car. And there is only a certain amount of time they'd let you stay in a hotel with no cooking facilities without pulling the kids, as well.

[Scout]

233. I didn't say "counseling" wasn't important...

"Don't go harshing on this poster because he or she suggests that nutritional education is important "

I never said counseling wasn't important, but it takes more than education. And if you are already aware of good nutrition, and well aware that you lack what you need to provide it to yourself or your children then counseling will not do one damn thing except rub your nose in your failure.

Education will not help me if I'm not allowed to cook at all in my one-room efficiency.

If I have no children, then no one will stop me from having to live in my car or my weekly rental hotel room.

Great for you, you have "Aldi's" (whatever that is) ... maybe there isn't one of those where I live, or it's not on the bus line, or I don't have a car. If I have no refrigerator where will I keep the fresh food?

Get a grip.

[Ms. Clio]

258. But a lot of poor people don't have access to good grocery stores

I heard a story about this on NPR a couple of months ago--a reporter accompanied a community activist to the local grocery store in a poor neighborhood (somewhere in CA) and the only fresh fruits or vegetables in the store were some rotten melons, some shriveled potatoes that he said had been there for a couple of months, and lemons and limes--for alcoholic beverages. A very limited meat selection (no fish of course) and would you really want to eat the food you bought in such a dingy, dirty place?

[LeftyMom]

269. The neighborhood I used to housesit in is like that.

There's one full-sized grocery store and it's filthy and overpriced and has almost no produce. It takes at least half an hour each way on the bus to get to a decent grocery store.

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if it was that neighborhood they were talking about, but I'm sure it's an issue in many communities. Here's a link taking about the problem. http://www.targethunger.com/Community-Food-Security/fdaccess.htm

[Nikia]

100. But in an earler post in this thread

You complained about food stamps being used for packaged food and name brand food. A lot of that packaged food and name brand food really is nutritious. For example, many of the high end breakfast cereals are highly nutritious and delicious. Many prepackaged mixes and frozen foods are also nutritious and tasty and contain a variety of ingredients. These ingredients might be inexpensive in bulk over time, but a person with limited income might not really want to spend $10 for a big spice container, which they may or may not completely use before it greatly loses its potency, or worse 4 or 5 of them so they can make the boxed side dish which they are buying now for $1.99.
Anyway my point is, most poor people buy little of these luxury items because they can buy more cheap stuff. If they choose to buy a few luxury items though, what is it to you. Many middle class Americans can buy pretty much whatever they want at the grocery store if they mostly cook at home. Why does it anger you that the poor might eat good food occaionally too?
As I said, I am happy to donate name brand foods and other "luxery" items to food banks because I know that these things are not taken for granted to the extent that they are in middle class homes.

[gollygee]

217. And if it's your kid's birthday, can you buy a cake?

What if the kid wants a frozen pizza on his birthday?

Or should poor people eat rice and beans for every meal?

[Colorado Blue]

268. I know you mean well but it's kind of judgmental, ok? When

you're really poor a treat goes a long way. Have a heart! Being poor is a full time job - one with which, I think, you have NO EXPERIENCE. And being down and out is a sort of vicious cycle. If buying a goody makes you feel better, why not? Psychologically it might make a difference. When you're trying to climb out of a hole any little brightness in the day is a help. Often poverty is accompanied by severe depression - please don't be so quick to judge.

As for people selling their food stamps - SO WHAT????

[cattleman22]

145. RE: Consumerism

"I remember being a poor teenager dreaming of real Frosted Flakes and Kool aid that my parents were too poor to buy."


Why did you dream of those things? I purposely choose to use generic brands as they are cheaper and provide similar quality. The only real diffrence is that the expensive brand has expensive advertising to brain wash consumers.

[Nikia]

152. There is a difference

And there was a bigger difference ten years ago on many foods. I work in the food industry. Yes, I know that some "generic foods" are copacked along side brand foods and are really the same. There are also generic foods made in the same plant that are made as cheaply as possible. There are some generic foods made in plants that barely keep their right to legally operate. There is a cheapening process going on with some of the major brands and some of the generic brands have found ways to make their products better so on some products the gap is narrowing.
My step mother did try to switch boxes of cereal and such to make me think that I was eating name brand stuff. I almost always knew when she had made the switch versus bought something on sale. Now a big part of my job is tasting food to assure consistent quality at my plant. I hate it when my manager or one of the owners asserts that most people can't tell the difference when I notice a big inconsistency. Maybe they can't.
I agree with you on some things. Some products, especially clothing is way over priced for the difference in quality. Some cheap clothing though really is not worth the few dollars you spend.
It is difficult for the consumer sometimes to tell the difference between real quality and public image quality. For more durable things though, it is better to buy something of good quality that one will use for years verses items that one will have to buy more of every few months or years. I think of consumerism more in terms of having to constantly replace things that should last for decades and having things that one does not use. Food is different because by its definition, it will be consumed and one always needs to buy more.

[EC]

26. I read a letter in the Chicago Trib today that said the reason

the working poor are poor is because they don't work hard enough to better themselves. I think there is a real misconception there. One, I personally know many college grads, who are working poor. Two, the lower paying jobs outnumber the higher paying jobs by at least 15 to 1, so there just are not enough higher paying jobs no matter how educated you are. Three, circumstances, this applies mostly to single women (for whatever reason- now with the war on, they could be war widows even) jobs need to be scheduled around the kids schedule, that thins down your choices. I can't see how they can blame the person stuck in a dead-end low pay job, sure they can change jobs, but not in this job market, when there are so many unemployed that don't need to take off work to make several job interviews, most employers now don't hire after just one interview, they have a series of elimination rounds...I also just don't see the gripe with raising the minimum wage either...all their excuses have already been disproved everytime the wage has been raised...

[Nikia]

30. Some jobs requiring college degress is my area

Pay only $9-$10/hour. Most jobs advertised in the local paper pay this little or less unless the job requires a very specific degree, set of skills, and years of experience. Jobs that pay more than this and don't require too much receive hundreds of applications.

[EC]

92. Pretty much the same here, unless you are a truck driver

or a bartender (although bars arn't getting the business they used too, so those jobs are getting scarce too)...


On edit: I saw a bookkeepers job where they were asking for at least 15 years experiance, and that is just a bookkeeper, not accountant...

[kineneb]

116. "don't work hard enough" my butt!

I make only $10/hr-35hr/wk at a small chamber of commerce and feel lucky. And I have almost a Masters! Fat lot of good it does to prepare for teaching at a community college when they only hire part time to avoid paying benefits.
My job has no benefits. Hubby is unable to work and is an insulin-dependant diabetic. So to get medical coverage we had to apply for CMSP/MediCal. This means no real assets, and staying under 200% of federal poverty rate. And so we are stuck here, sometimes having to visit the food pantry because the paycheck doesn't go far enough. If I can find a job with group health insurance, I will go for it, otherwise...what's the point- we wind up bankrupt from the medical bills.

[ohkay]

47. So you all throw out insults and rhetoric and then

can't discuss? Am I wrong? Can you convince me otherwise? Maybe. But not if you're too busy yelling at me insulting me and reacting.

Good job guys. Bravo :grr:

[ultraist]

52. Why should we end food stamps and let children & handicapped go hungry?

We should do this because you claim the supposed corruption justifies punishing children and the handicap? Because that's all you've said. 'End food stamps, there's corruption'.

Yet, you failed to provide any facts to back up your assertion and then diverted by making yet another false claim that the issue is lack of nutritional education.

Weak, dude,weak.

[ohkay]

66. Ok, so I've backed off a little.

Eliminate- too harsh.

Drastically overhaul. mandatory nutritional classes.

How many people on food stamps do you think are handicapped? Or people who have children who CAN'T work?
I've never said anything about penalizing people. I'm talking about people either abusing or misusing a system.

[Lisabtrucking]

54. I just said I don't agree with you. You have to think about it in the

poor persons view. Yes they may buy chips and dip, and they probably buy soda, but a poor person don't buy computer's or video games for their children, so they turn to junk food to bring them some enjoyment. People who work at a minimum wage job don't have the pleasure that people with good paying jobs have. So if they might spend some of their food stamps on a soda or some chips and dip so they can have some enjoyment, why not? I can assure you the people getting the food stamps are spending most of it on real food.

[ohkay]

87. food=entertainment is a whooooole other issue!

[n2mark]

57. This is what I don't understand

there was a point in my life when I was on food stamps. There were only certain things I could buy. There is is misconception regarding food stamps, it is not a free for all. I can't just go buy liquors, rib steaks, or whatever of the top brands. There is a $ limit, if I go over it, no more food stamps. If you run out of food stamps, you just can't go get more. You are allotted. Do you get it pukes?

[ohkay]

63. I'll get back to you when I'm not so mad at you

[LynnTheDem]

124. Now there's an adult post

NOT.

[superconnected]

60. when are we going to wean the gov off giving our taxes to

defense contractors?

I think we should double (at the very least) the food stamp amounts, and give them to everyone who makes at or under poverty level, with no requirements on how many years they can have them.

Food stamps are a drop in the bucket of our taxes, they and all of welfare are less than 2.5% of our taxes. I am perfectly willing to hand that to the poor so children and adults who just can't find a job, let alone the disabled, in this country, so they don't starve.

Why not talk about the curruption with the hundreds of billions going out of our taxes to wars and gov contractors who don't bid for jobs but have inside deals, _and_ over charge us? How about that other 97.5%?

Picking on the poor and blaming them for curruption is bad enough, but now, in lieu of the real curruption and how big it's grown, picking on the poor is ludicris.

[ohkay]

62. this isn't a discussion about the criminal

negligence in the defense spending. I could spend all night with that.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

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[ohkay]

68. hurtng me how?

By using food stamps? probably not. By having no incentive to get OFF assistance? maybe. Maybe it's just not a good situation for anyone.

It's not about hurting me. I never whined about my taxes or my wallet.

[superconnected]

71. incentive to get off food stamps?

as if they are lazy and won't without incentives.

Your words speak volumes.

[ohkay]

76. again, I work all day with poor people

some are, some aren't.

I'm certainly not going to generalize about an entire class of people

[Undercover Owl]

121. dude, food stamps are like a ticket to heaven, man!

Food stamps are all anybody needs in life!

why would anybody want to get a job when you can get $140 bucks a month, for food, for not working? Dude, $140 for food is all anybody should want in life!

One you get on this crappy dole, why stop?

[Biased Liberal Media]

130. You already did with your posts above

[miss_kitty]

81. Uh you do take exception in your exchange with me...

"Are you saying I should pay for it?" and "they shouldn't use food stamps for non- generic purchases..." kind of smacks to me of whining about your taxes or your wallet. just my interpretation of what you said earlier-sounds like "Not with MY taxes, they don't." Just sayin'

[ohkay]

84. Ahh. you're right.

I did. I got my dander up here.

Ok, my take? the reason I posted this? I don't think many people on fs are buying junk food, or junkier food, not b/c they don't have a choice, but b/c they can.

Me? my story? I grew up a garden, and not much money. learned how to cook simple, nutritional cheap food. so, yeah, it burns me a little to see someone with all the cheesie poufs and whatnot my Mom wouldn't buy for me, but that is a selfish, immature response, and I acknowledge that.

If I were in charge, FS would be about 47742 on the list of things I would change, but I would change it.

[progmom]

112. thanks for this

...you just earned my respect back a little.

[consciousobjector]

234. I felt a lot like you when I was younger

I was attending school and working and living on a very low budget...I would get irritated when standing in line to buy groceries behind someone using food stamps to buy "heat and eat" luxury foods...but as I matured, I realized that every one's circumstances are different and a single, working mom may need to buy convenience foods because she hasn't time or perhaps the knowledge to prepare food from scratch...today not many people know how to cook at all. And even fewer know how to garden...Do you support community garden programs in your area? Perhaps you could arrange for cooking classes for low income people in your area...think globally, act locally

[LynnTheDem]

125. "It's not about hurting me. I never whined about my taxes or my wallet. "

ohkay (110 posts) Thu Feb-10-05 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #36

42. "are you saying poor people aren't worthy of non-generic brands?"


Are you saying I should pay for it?

[Lisabtrucking]

70. I totally agree with you. I posted this thread to start a discussion

on what the government is doing. They are blaming the poor for the country's situation, when it is the government that has screwed things up for all of us.
The corruption is in this administration not the poor. Most of the clerks at the grocery store get food stamps, at least the one's I know. They don't make enough to pay the bill's besides buy food. The republican party has made it their priority to blame the poor, and they have done a good job at it.

This country needs good paying job's, but our government sends them overseas for cheap labor, then they blame the poor for all the country's ills. This needs to stop. People don't want to be poor. I know they would rather have a good paying job, where they can buy their children better things.
It's the dignity thing, who really says they would rather be collecting food stamps then working a good paying job. No one I know.

[superconnected]

80. true.

We do need more and better jobs.

But we also need to provide better for the poor in this country, even the chronically poor and marginalized(disabled, elderly) that may never get off assistence. And we need to do it without acting like they're some kind of burden on us and currupt for being chronically poor and needing help with food, bills, etc.

[Sparkle]

78. Did I miss something?

Are they ending the food stamp program? I hope not. We have too many kids now going to bed hungry.

[Lisabtrucking]

83. In bush's budget there is a cut in Food stamps, housing, energy , and

education 13, cuts in education.

[Sparkle]

89. Fucking Republicans!

I hate those bastards!

[LynnTheDem]

126. Don't forget MORE cuts for veterans' benefits and DOUBLE the vets'

deductible for meds. And 48 education programs being cut.

[Bouncy Ball]

101. Oh please tell me they aren't lowering THAT.

Not that.

There are corporations in this country receiving BILLIONS of dollars in payola from the government, but we're going to deny a low-income working family who is struggling to eat????

What THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THOSE EVIL BASTARDS????

God. I hope there's a horrible hell and bush goes there after his death and he feels what it feels to starve to death, every single day, only he never dies.

[ultraist]

105. It's a "victory" that a woman with a handicap child has to work 3 jobs

That's Bush's attitude. If she works three jobs, she must not have much time for her children. Now, that's real family values for ya!

As far as food stamps, there are time limits for able bodied persons and they must be enrolled in work first program.

90% of recipients are below the federal poverty level. People in this category face a myriad of obstacles to move into the higher income brackets. Denying these barriers exist is exactly what the Repukes do. Blame the victim.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/indicators98/APND_A2.PDF#search='food%20stamp%20requirements'

I don't buy these examples of "what I see" for one minute. Oktay has yet to provide any facts to back up her/his claim that there is mass corruption within the food stamp program. BTW, they already are required to take nutritional classes.

The fact is, the large percentage of recipients have children. These children deserve to eat whether or not the parents try hard enough or not.

If we, as a society, do not act in a socially responsible manner and ensure our children do not go hungry, what does that make us?

[TheOriginalAmerican]

107. We don't have our priorities straight.

We supposedly want to free the world, but we crap on our own citizens. It's disgusting.

Bush, get your priorities straight.

[Cats Against Frist]

117. I'm all for food stamps, and subsidized housing and free childcare

and EIC, especially if handled on the local level, but in addition to some of the suggestions above, I believe that people that receive these services should NOT be wearing Tommy Hilfiger clothes or buying stereo equipment with their EIC.

I worked in social services for three years. Nobody's a saint -- even the poor, and many of them DO waste money on cigarettes, liquor, drugs, name-brand clothes and mucho trinkets, while we're paying to feed their fucking kids.

This can be talked about, and should be talked about. I believe with every bone in my body that kids, the infirm, and the elderly should be given full support by society -- hopefully on a de-centralized level -- and even those who are just going through some "hard luck."

But many, many people who receive these services have more "discretionary" income than I do. And I don't mean "welfare queens in Caddies," but I do mean mothers and children in GAP clothes, people eating out for every meal, doing drugs, going out.

And lest you think I'm being cruel -- blowing state money on some of these ingrates takes money away from the people who REALLY need it -- the very sick, who can't work, the mentally ill, children, etc.

And this happens a lot -- I worked both in a small town in Central Illinois, and in Seattle, and I saw it. I saw it, a lot.

[LynnTheDem]

127. "while we're paying to feed their fucking kids."

:wow:

[Cats Against Frist]

135. Look, that was not a cut at poor people, it was emphasis for the sentence

overall. I have a very dirty mouth. I don't mind paying for kids that need it -- even if the parents are wasteoid scrubs. I just think the system needs to be overhauled to keep them from blowing a $3,000 check on a new 30-inch TV/VCR/Home Theater entertainment system when their kids are shaved bald, from lice, the state is paying their rent and the father drinks part of the money away.

[ultraist]

151. I agree, LynnDem! That attitude is quite revealing.

If there is so much corruption, why is it, that 90+% of food stamp recipients live BELOW the poverty level?

Those that are pushing the Repuke talking point, "welfare queen" have yet to provide any real evidence that mass corruption exists in the system.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't give a flying fuck if the parents are unworthy bastards, the CHILDREN DESERVE TO EAT, regardless of their parents.

This punitive attitude towards children and lack of responsibility as a community, a society, is very disturbing to me.

Of all of the families I worked with at Child Protective Services and throughout the years of volunteering, I have YET TO SEE, a well dressed poor family that abuses the system. They buy their clothes at Goodwill, when they can afford to.

There are MILLIONS in poverty in our country. THAT IS A FACT!

[Cats Against Frist]

161. You're like freaking out on me, dude

I've said OVER and OVER that I think that children should be fed, given shelter, and given healthcare, at all costs -- only that I want these things to be handled locally, and at the very least, on the state level.

I have NO problem with helping children, and providing them and their families with services listed below, I just think the system should be overhauled to make sure that they're not blowing all their money on crack (because that's what workfare gets you -- the benefits are there, there's just more cash to by liquor, cigarettes & drugs), and that, if they are receiving public money, should be expected to live a thrifty lifestyle, otherwise.

You must understand my background. I am a minimalist, and I mostly try to buy things 1. From progressive companies 2. Secondhand or 3. Make due with what I have, which is not much and I don't believe in paying for something that is priced outside of its use value. I don't believe it is a right to have these things, and I ESPECIALLY don't think it's a right for people to take public money and buy named-brand goods.

In fact, I think it's a travesty.

You also have to understand that I am coming from a very long-thought-out position that the poor are not "noble," just because they're poor. They're just like anyone else -- socioeconomics plays a role in the development of people, but so do tons of other things, and bad people turn out in all segments of society, from the poorest of the poor, to the richest of the rich. A good example of something similar is how the GOP suggests that we "support the troops," at all costs, leaving out the idea that they are fallible, while the truth is that some commit war crimes, some are zealous crusaders, some beat and kill their girlfriends, some are downright mean. I can't deal with that, because that's absolutist thinking. I feel the same way, as I said -- after MANY soul-searching hours -- about the poor.

That said, a LARGE percentage, not a small percentage of my clients funnelled extra cash into cigarettes, drugs, tv/audio equipment, cars, jewelry, cell phones, named-brand clothing and shoes, etc. I would say close to 40 percent.

You blanketly accuse me of being some kind of coldhearted anarchocapitalist right-winger, but I said that the behavior of the forty percent HURTS me, precisely because it's taking away money for things that are more necessary -- for people who really need it, and for the children, who may not need a pair of Baby Gap shoes, but might need books, educational toys, recreation, music classes. If we're going the way of social engineering in the first place, then I'll be damned, if, on my watch, it's going to be done, half-assed.

Take some time to try to understand what I'm advocating, and please respect my firsthand experience. In addition to my social service work, for my final project for my poli sci degree, I did a statewide analysis of Temporary Aid for Needy Families in Illinois State, and conducted tens of hours of interviews, and pages of data on where the money in the system goes, and where it is not effective. Cash payments, IMHO, are NEVER effective, and neither are things that can be traded for cash. Services, housing, education, etc., are my focus.

I don't even agree with the MIDDLE CLASS blowing their cash on useless, over-priced bullshit, but, at least, in that situation, they did earn the money, and they're paying for it themselves.

If you want to have a constructive conversation with me, please do. Otherwise, stop calling me names. If you knew the contempt that I had for everything GOP, you would not be accusing me of using Reaganite myths to spread false propaganda.

[Lisabtrucking]

166. The only problem with what you say, is that it is our culture that

sends these parents to the gap stores or want their children to be like every other child on the block. I know a lot of people would feel much better at seeing these food stamp people wearing rags and as thin as a toothpick. Our culture puts more inferences on what you wear or what you have. When you see someone with a food stamp card and wearing nice cloth, you right away look at what they have. Not really knowing where they got it. Then you have the landlords who rent too people who have housing, and they charge the max for the apartment or house they live in. God forbid if these people are able to find a small house to rent in a nice area, they are cheating the system. Until we look at what really matter's in the world, which should be a better life for everyone. We will always blame the poor. Why not complain to our government to find these people good paying jobs.

[Cats Against Frist]

171. See, the "consumer impulse" doesn't get you off with me, poor or rich

I will chalk up a lot of things to bad socialization, but I don't give people free passes for living high on the hog with material goods -- I don't care if you're poor, middle class, rich, ultra-wealthy or a deity. And I don't care about making poor people look "fashionable" for a dead and soulless society. I don't want to see them thin as toothpicks & wearing rags, but I don't want to see them dressing better than I do, either.

I have compassion, but it only goes SO FAR. It does not include providing for or turning a blind eye to the poor's consumerism.

[KissMeKate]

181. *I* was one ot *THEIR* "fucking" kids YOUR taxes fed.

My mom had food stamps when I was growing up- she smoked, did drugs, and was generally a bad mom. But *I* still needed to eat.

*I* was one ot *THEIR* "fucking" kids YOUR taxes fed. Thank you. I appreciate the food.

When I grew up, I became a tax paying citisen, and now my taxes pay to help feed other peoples children, send them to public school (I dont have children myself), pay for other peoples highways, community recreation centers, hospitals, etc.

I dont know how I can look myself in the mirror every day and pay for other peoples *fucking* lifestyles!

It makes me SO sick!

[Cats Against Frist]

189. You are being defensive and personalizing this issue, needlessly

Find in any one of my posts in this thread where I suggested cutting the programs, or supported cuts in the programs, or otherwise suggested that poor children should be turned out.

Not once. Does this mean I give their parents a free pass? Fuck no.

And you're being sarcastic, but I'm going to go ahead and stand by my assertion. I don't mind for paying for food, housing, clean clothes, education, subsidized or free child care and transportation -- but lifestyle? Fuck no. No way.

I'm happy that the kids can get some toys and presents from charities, and I give to them myself, but you want to hear a little about my own history?

My dad was a union coal miner, who was out of work about half the time, because he REFUSED to work at scab mines, and bailed fucking hay as a farm hand with high school boys and mowed a Doctor's lawn to make money for my family. My mom was a secretary. They made shit most years and still managed to, by themselves, provide my brother and I with a clean, nice home, save money for our educations, and keep us with health insurance -- without one dime from the state. I grew up and got TWO degrees, and because of bipolar disorder spent three years drinking and partying, and living off of random boyfriends, until I got PREGNANT in Seattle and had, yes, the STATE of Washington pay for my pre-natal, delivery and two years of health insurance for my child. Worse, my boyfriend was an alcoholic, and we spent the first two years of my son's life fighting and in misery, rotting in a moldy bungalow that was basically owned by two "Christians" who thought we were scum. We weren't young, either -- I was 26 and he was 30, and we had SHIT but for what our families gave us, and EVEN THEN it pissed me off when they wanted to give my son 3,000 "cute outfits" when our own goddamn electricity was near getting shut off.

And then, we grew up. Slowly, but I got mentally healthy BY MYSELF, with no psychiatrist, no drugs because my son was more important to me than anything. My boyfriend, WITHOUT AA or treatment stopped drinking so much, got a job where he will be making $18 an hour, soon, I got a fellowship to the best graduate school for my field, in the world, and most days we don't have it all the way together, but despite some childhood trauma, a lonely and tragic pregnancy and alcoholism, we've come through.

I AM compassionate -- I dedicated three and a half years of my life to working to help children and families -- and longer as a volunteer for a nonprofit to help keep kids off of drugs. I support community and church and family intervention. I support always taking care of children.

WHAT I DO NOT SUPPORT is people who really just fucking don't give a shit. It's not what they can or can't do, or what they don't have access to, but what they DON'T WANT TO or WON'T do.

All I have ever advocated for, in this thread were three things:

1. To talk truthfully about the poor, and not make them martyrs.

2. To overhaul the system to keep the poor from blowing their money on crap.

and

3. To get the communities of the middle class actively involved in helping -- not to send some mystical tax dollars of to some far-off mystical entity that pays nonprofits to pay their CEOs $100,000 salaries to put a band-aid on social ills.

That's all I'm trying to say. Anyone reading anything else into this is being defensive.

[ultraist]

193. We are not being defensive, you harped on the "welfare queen"

You went off about the corruption factor being so prevelant, that is the "welfare queen" argument. Regardless, of how you frame it. No one has provided evidence that this supposed corruption is really big enough to be an issue. But we did provide evidence of the checks and balances in the system that prevents corruption.

Furthermore, you DISMISSED the FACT, that CHILDREN DESERVE TO EAT, regardless of their parents' actions. Thank fucking god for foodstamps or Kate would have gone hungry. We should be PROUD that we provide food for those less fortunate, not shaming, damning and punitive.

Kate does NOT owe us or anybody else anything. EVERY CHILD DESERVES TO EAT. IT IS A RIGHT NOT A PRIVILEGE. Your comments like, "their fucking kids" are vile.

[Cats Against Frist]

230. I said, at least five times in this thread that all children should be fed

and clothed, and have housing and healthcare and access to education.

:shrug:

[KissMeKate]

194. the issue is personal- "their fucking kids" are PERSONS.

dehumanising them is dehumanising me. its called empathy.


Your taxes paid for my bad mom's food stamps. Deal with it.

Its called living in a society.

[KissMeKate]

196. do you realise your own baby was a "their fucking kids" to someone?

your baby needed medical care, and you did the RIGHT thing by accepting government help for your baby, despite your other choices.

Your own personal story should immunise you against these distortions in thinking about poor people. They are just like you! (and me!)

Children cannot get jobs, children are inherently unable to provide for themselves. Being resentful of feeding them is unwarranted, even if their parents are the worst scumbags around.
Children are innocent.

[Cats Against Frist]

205. EXACTLY

Your own personal story should immunise you against these distortions in thinking about poor people. They are just like you! (and me!)

And neither one of us are perfect, and don't always make perfect choices, or even good choices -- just like all other humans.

Seriously. Find for me, in this thread, in ONE place where I suggested cutting benefits for poor people. Please find the three or four places that I suggested that we NEED to take care of kids at all costs.

I explained a long time ago, that when I used the phrase "their fucking kids," that I was simply using the word "FUCKING" for emphasis -- not to degrade the kids. Please, please understand that.

[KissMeKate]

208. ok, I hear you.

It just seems too easy for alot of people to say - "not my problem, those people shouldnt have had kids, " and then they advocate cutting the programs and punishing the kids because of that sentiment.

[Cats Against Frist]

226. But that's not what I'm saying, at all. I've never said that.

This thread has gotten really crazy, and I've been called a Republican, a "strict father," had my self-image questioned and had someone verbally hope that I'm not still in social work.

I'm not advocating for it to be someone else's problem. I'm advocating for it to be ALL of our problems -- in communities, the middle class, businesses -- no matter how many laws and regulations and programs you have in place, it never gets any better until SOMEONE takes some personal responsibility. The developer or organization who gambles on a "mixed" neighborhood, that brings people out of the projects to live amongst middle class people. The person who takes a chance on hiring someone without the best record or training, and giving them a chance. The person who takes responsibility for HIM or HERSELF and puts aside their instant gratification for the long-term health of their kids. The middle class person who takes a part-time job helping or volunteering to help the poor. The community who helps each other out in times of need. The extended family that reaches out, and sacrifices.

The problem with the Republicans is that they harp on personal responsibility, but they have NO FUCKING CLUE what that means -- to them, it means only taking care of yourself. TO me, personal responsibility means taking care of everyone -- I just wish that it were face to face, in a local community, with family and churches (even though I'm a staunch agnostic and can't stand the religious right -- but they need to put their money where their mouths are, too), and neighbors, and business owners -- instead of being sent off to George Bush's giant war machine to cut.

And for this compassion -- yes -- I DO expect the people who are being helped to do their share, which includes going without some things that they might want. And I expect a society that doesn't vilify the poor for what they don't have.

Believe it or not, you can be a libertarian and be extraorinarily compassionate. I think this is the future, to tell you the truth, because it brings the consciousness of helping back to the person, rather than letting the person simply feel "OK" because someone "out there" is doing something.

[KissMeKate]

236. localised help

I agree- the more local the better.

I agree, it is reasonable to ask people (all people) to make better choices in raising their kids.

I misinterpreted your original intent, it seems.

[ultraist]

253. So, your bipolar disorder is under control with no meds?

cats for frist wrote:

"I grew up and got TWO degrees, and because of bipolar disorder spent three years drinking and partying, and living off of random boyfriends, until I got PREGNANT in Seattle and had, yes, the STATE of Washington pay for my pre-natal, delivery and two years of health insurance for my child. Worse, my boyfriend was an alcoholic, and we spent the first two years of my son's life fighting and in misery, rotting in a moldy bungalow that was basically owned by two "Christians" who thought we were scum. We weren't young, either -- I was 26 and he was 30, and we had SHIT but for what our families gave us, and EVEN THEN it pissed me off when they wanted to give my son 3,000 "cute outfits" when our own goddamn electricity was near getting shut off.

And then, we grew up. Slowly, but I got mentally healthy BY MYSELF, with no psychiatrist, no drugs because my son was more important to me than anything. My boyfriend, WITHOUT AA or treatment stopped drinking so much, got a job where he will be making $18 an hour, soon, I got a fellowship to the best graduate school for my field, in the world, and most days we don't have it all the way together, but despite some childhood trauma, a lonely and tragic pregnancy and alcoholism, we've come through."

[Lisabtrucking]

182. How do you know they have bought those things when they were

collecting food stamps? People tend to jump to conclusions when they see someone with food stamps and dressed nice or driving a car. after four years of this bush administration there are people who at one time had a good living wage, and now they are poor. We have the highest bankruptcies, since bush was selected. Some of these poor use to be the working middle class, who are now the working poor. I'm sure they collected things over the years when they were able to afford them. I know when I make good money I like to buy nice things. That is the problem, people right away will look at what that food stamp holder is wearing, and not ask themselves, I wonder how they got to that situation. So before you jump to conclusions that those people have nicer cloths then you, ask yourself if their job got outsourced, or is it that hard to find a good paying job that these people need to resort to food stamps. All I'm saying is, it's not the poor people's fault we have a food stamp program, it is our governments, for not suppling good jobs for these people. Yes our government should be doing more to create jobs not outsource them.

[KissMeKate]

184. cognitive distortions and anecdotal evidence dehumanise the poor.

people remember that one welfare mom buying potato chips for the rest of their lives, but never see the struggling moms doling out the portions of rice and beans privately in their home.

[Cats Against Frist]

199. I'm not dehumanizing the poor, those who make them martyrs do

They're real people. That's the thing. Sorry if you don't like my worldview, but most people are irresponsible, apathetic and don't make very good choices.

My ex-boyfriend's mom was one of the people who "doled out beans and rice" in her own home, and because of her poor choice in men, the mens' irresponsibility, and her own hang-ups managed to have five kids:

1. The oldest, my ex-boyfriend, was on his way to flunking out of state and working as a hired hand, when I met him, and went back and got a degree in plastics engineering, with my support and encouragement and now makes about 80 grand a year and lives in a nice suburb of Chicago with his new wife.

2. The next oldest knocked up a drug addict, and of course, the child has asthma, she smokes around it, they live in housing, nobody held the kid for the first year, and he still doesn't have a job, and spends every dime he fanagles out of people on stereo equipment.

3. The next oldest, a girl, got knocked up -- TWICE -- by a felon who beats her and spends all the money he makes drug dealing in Chicago on fast women -- when he's not in jail. To her credit, she works a full-time job at a factory and works very hard and is responsible -- except for that part about being in love with an ABUSIVE FELON WHO CHEATS ON HER.

4. The twins -- one turned out OK, but has Turner's syndrome -- to which I'm very sympathetic -- and the other one got knocked up -- TWICE -- by scrub kid wasteoid who threatened to kill her, got her hooked on meth and got both of the kids put in foster care.

Now, that's one woman and two men (one an alcoholic, one a drug dealer/user -- both of whom abandoned the family) who had five children who were supported partially by the state, who now have a total of 5 kids that are partially supported by the state.

I, of course, as I have repeated AD NAUSEUM in this thread support the welfare of the children, but I don't support the one father buying stereo equipment, another being a drug user, and the other spending his drug money on partying in Chicago.

All of these men should have been in JAIL for failure to support their children -- why aren't they? Why because NONE of the women have really pursued it. Why? "They're in 'love,' and they don't want to hurt them."

And in the end, that's what the tax payer is really paying for: fucking irresponsible craziness on behalf of a whole host of adult toddlers who are hanging on to narratives that are sentimental, damaging and amount to child abuse and dereliction of parenting.

THIS is humanization. So is recognizing the contributions of good parents who work hard, are not consumerists and who have a modicum of responsible behavior.

Not ONCE have I advocated ending the programs. Only talking about this in reality.

[KissMeKate]

203. then we agree- "they're real people".

Absolutely.

[KissMeKate]

206. So youre saying we subsidise poor choices? I agree,

it is a side effect of making sure the kids of fucked up parents eat.

The thing is, if we took those kids out of their homes and put them in foster care, they would still be subsidised, and statistics show, they would end up as adults, no better off. (I know that one first hand- foster care can fuck kids up just as bad as biological families.)

I understand your frustration. I wish people would make better choices too, starting with parenting skills.

[Cats Against Frist]

212. Yeah, and I'm OK with subsidizing "poor choices" too

but to a limit. People can make mistakes and get forgiveness, but if they think, along the way, that they're entitled to a normal, middle-class lifestyle with the accoutrements -- THAT's where I feel they're mistaken.

I simply think that ALL social services should be rendered in services, not anything that can be traded for anything, and that ALL adults living in a household should contribute to the household and that ALL males and females should be financially responsible to their offspring.

The poor are the poor -- yes, they're people, and just like rich people and middle class people, they are seduced by consumerism, go out with drug dealers, do stupid and illegal things, abandon their families, smoke around their children, are bad parents, have their own hang-ups, ad nauseum. I prefer to deal with them on this level, and on the level of their behavior, rather than "poor." I don't advocate ending any programs -- just making them more local, with more hands-on community support, giving no cash, seizing extra cash that is being spent on crap (this is the controversial one, I know) and putting men in jail who don't take care of their kids.

That's all.

[KissMeKate]

222. I can agree with that

except the "seizing extra cash" part, of course.

My mom once sent me to a convenience store to take back a can of green beans to get a refund and buy (with a note from her) a pack of cigarettes when I was 9. We didnt even buy the green beans there. And it worked, for some bizarre reason. That is a true story! I hated doing it, it was so humiliating. I still hate her, a little bit, even now, for that.

I think people will find a way to get around the "seizing extra cash" thing.

I dont think all the problems we are both obviously familiar with can be solved, but its good that we both advocate helping and trying, at least.

[Cats Against Frist]

192. I'm not "jumping to conclusions," -- I spent three years working for the

system, in two areas, and the same stuff happened, consistently, over and over, again.

[conflictgirl]

260. Very true.

I had a friend who was on food stamps for a while and both she and her daughter were very well dressed. They were wearing all the clothes they had been able to purchase in the days before my friend's husband kicked her out of the house. Maybe next time they should go spill some grape juice on the clothes and cut up the clothes with scissors, since apparently there is a dress code for being poor. I had no idea!

[ultraist]

252. 40%? Can you back that up with some facts

"That said, a LARGE percentage, not a small percentage of my clients funnelled extra cash into cigarettes, drugs, tv/audio equipment, cars, jewelry, cell phones, named-brand clothing and shoes, etc. I would say close to 40 percent"

What cash? We were discussing food stamps. Do you know how much cash a welfare recipient is given?

Do you understand the time limits? Or the job requirements? Of all my years working with poor families I saw very little corruption and it certainly wasn't anywhere near 40%.

Ten hours of interviews? That's not a lot of data.

I am not resentful of the poor and I do feel a social responsibility. I don't have harsh and punitive feelings for the poor. I pay quite a lot in taxes and I'm glad to have them go to food stamps and other social programs. If there is a little corruption, so be it. No system is perfect.

[cap]

132. you will see more people in GAP clothes these days

because a lot of the middle class has sunk into poverty... they still have their duds.

Again, I say, so what. If some of what is offered is wasted, I dont focus on the waste. I focus on the enormous good that was done for people. We have been going through the largest economic downturn since the Great Depression. The overwelming majority need the assistance.

If you really wanted to get rid of the waste, you would be trying to make government service attractive to highly qualified individuals -- instead of making government service the last resort. How about properly funding the computer systems to make it more efficient?

[Cats Against Frist]

138. I just think it needs to be overhauled

as long as we've agreed to "take care" of them anyway, if they can't use their free money like responsible adults, I say they never see a dime of it, and all of their income goes into an account, and an "agent" doles it out to like electricity, food for the kids, rent, etc.

Have you seen this with your own eyes??? I'm telling you -- the poor are no more "noble" than the rich, or the apathetic middle class. Several people DO think they're entitled. They DO think they're "getting over" on the system, and they feel entitled to live the same soulless consumer existence as the people whom are paying for it by themselves.

I honestly believe that poor kids have a right to food, shelter, basic clothes, donated toys and books, and medical care -- and maybe the once-a-year charity christmas, so they get to feel like "normal" kids. I DO NOT feel like society owes them a comfortable, middle-class existence. If you could get the rich to pool for it, maybe -- but people who just barely qualify for taxation shouldn't be taxed for this. That said, I think any money given to the poor is being used more effectively than on the 900th F-104 Penis Enlarger, that we're going to bomb France with.

[knitter4democracy]

139. They're still people with free choice to make poor choices.

That said, maybe they got the clothes at a consignment shop (tons of Gap crap in ours). Sometimes eating out is the only option at the end of a long day of two jobs and being on the bus for God knows how long getting the kids from one place to another and to job(s) and back. Being a stay-at-home mom, I can see why people do those things. Yes, there are messed up people out there who continually make poor choices, but that is their right, just as it is your right to not spend your money well or use gifts unwisely.

[Cats Against Frist]

144. Right. It's my right not to spend MY money, wisely

It's not my right to not spend someone ELSE's money wisely.

Look, before you go thinking I'm some kind of freeper, I'm a very left-wing libertarian who believes in de-centralization, personal responsibility and community responsibility. My philosophy demands accountability and responsibility from ALL Americans, poor and CEO alike, and this shit don't wash. The people that I know didn't a day at work, or in transit. Oddly enough, most of the people with whom were in-tact families where a father spent the bulk of the day in a curtained-off bedroom, doing crack, while the mom slept off her crack hangover on the couch, with her baby sleeping in the crack of the couch and a refridgerator with ROTTING MEAT in it, because their electricity got shut off three days before.

I realize there are really good people who try to make it, and can't. I realize that there are some people who just can't make it, and have a really hard time trying, because of one or a number of addictions, disabilities, socialization, etc. I just think it is possible to pay these people in services, rather than cash.

I'm half a bleeding heart -- half tough love. Look, if you're down and out, and you're trying, or you absolutely CANNOT take care of yourself or your family -- we'll help you out. We'll try to get you some skills, an education, a job, subsidized housing, subsidized childcare, food assistance, transportation assistance and health insurance -- but that's where it stops.

And they were NOT buying this stuff from the thrift store. The GAP clothes, and TOMMY clothes were mostly on single girls and their children, when I worked at a group home. These girls ALMOST ALWAYS had families that would show up in nice cars and they'd all go out to mid-priced restaurants -- the parents just didn't want to deal with actually shelling out to support their pregnant 17-year-old, so they just let the state pay for their housing, and food, health insurance and caseworking, and then, when they wanted to "show" the child around, on visits, they'd buy an expensive stroller and brand-name clothes for the kids.

I shit you not. This stuff happened right in front of my eyes, in one form, or another, over and over again, for three years.

And the worst part of ALL of this, was when do-gooders like the Jr. League showed up in chekcered capri pants, with their Mary-Kay make-up and permed and diamond rings, and BROUGHT the girls GAP clothes, and all this other stuff to put the stamp of legitimacy on expensive taste and the purchase of goods that are priced outside their use value to people who can't even pay for their kid's breakfast.

It's just frustrating.

[knitter4democracy]

146. I understand your point of view--I taught high school for 3 years.

I know the people you're talking about. I taught kids like that and saw more than that from my mom teaching public high school art for 35 years. I know what you're talking about.

That said: they still have free choice. If you were given grant money to start up a business, would you want the government looking into every single purchase, having an accountant follow every move you made? The SBA tracks how its money is used, but not all that closely because then they'd have no one signing up for anything. No one wants the government to be Big Brother--not even the poor. Heck, I don't even like my mother-in-law checking to see what clothes I bought for my kids with a gift certificate, trying to make sure I spent it well (shoot, she should look in the mirror on that one).

For every person you saw in that situation, there were many more just struggling to get by--I taught kids like that too. You were doing good work, and the deeds of a select group shouldn't rub that out.

[ultraist]

153. Oh, that explains it. You are a Libertarian. Libertarians don't believe in

social programs. I see. I have worked for years with children from economically disadvantaged families. I have been in these people's homes and believe me, they are not squandering our money.

Spend some time in the homes of food stamp recipients and you may have a change of heart from your libertarian position.

How many MILLIONS live in poverty in country? And why is that again? Because they squander their food stamps?

Or is it because access to education and jobs is limited to them?

THE "WELFARE QUEEN" IS A REPUKE TALKING POINT. I CALL BS ON THAT ONE. IT'S ANOTHER REPUKE MYTH USED TO SCREW THE POOR.

[Cats Against Frist]

157. Wow, you didn't read the post at all

1. I worked in social services and have seen this firsthand.

2. I said they were NOT stereotypical "welfare queens in caddys."

3. I said I was a LEFT WING libertarian, and you're goddamn right I believe in social programs -- only small, efficient and administered at the local level, with responsibility and burden and help from everyone in the community.

Trying to explain a left-wing libertarian position is impossible to do to people who just don't want to understand. It's just as bad as explaining civil rights to a bushbot. There is no lack of care, compassion and support in left-wing libertarianism. Most left-wing minarchist and anarchist philosophies revolve around cooperatives and unions, and definitely have concern and compassion for the poor -- particularly opening up access to ownership, education, etc.

[ultraist]

164. I worked in Social Services too

Your argument is a white washed version of the welfare queen myth: Relying on supposed corruption as an excuse to cut the program that feeds the handicapped, children, and military families.

I said, Libertarians don't believe in social programs. (This is based on their party platform, clearly listed on their website).

Local help is not enough. I want my tax dollars to pay for food stamps, not war. I pay quite a lot in taxes, far more than the average American and I am PISSED OFF that food stamps were cut rather than some BS spending like corporate welfare to companies that outsource.

The little bit of corruption does not outweigh the HUGE need to help those in poverty. I have seen skinny, hungry children too many times to buy into that Repuke talking point. We have a social responsibility to provide for the handicapped and the children of our society. Consider the poverty rate and how things were prior to food stamps.

Food stamps is one of the greatest social programs that Democrats created. The new system weeds out MOST of the corruption. Credit cards that must be used with IDS, background checks of bank accounts and DMV registrations, income statements signed by the employer, monthy renewal required paperwork, etc. It's pretty difficulty to scam on foodstamps.

There are a lot of checks and balances in that system, UNLIKE contract work to companies like Haliburton. Go attack that if you are concerned about corruption and misuse of tax money.

Supporting Repukes cuts in an effective and critical social program does not sound very left leaning to me.

[Cats Against Frist]

169. Well, I've seen a kid made damn-near retarded from lead poisoning

that got that way because her (16-year-old) mom was out partying and her grandma and grandpa, who were supposed to be watching her were too "cracked out" to give a shit about what she was eating or drinking. And the mother was not whoring out. She had a part-time job, and, I, as a social service worker, was actually GUIDED to budget in cigarettes, drugs and bar time in an effort to get a budget going.

That's fucking insane, IMHO. It IS harm reduction, and something is better than nothing, but something better is better than something, yeah?

I have never said in ANY of these posts that I want the program cut, or that I agree with reduced benefits for this particular program, and I SPECIFICALLY said, above, that even with the waste, that it was still better than paying for a militaristic society.

You're not listening, and you're refusing to be realistic. It's no better than freep-blinders.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[ultraist]

251. Excuse me?:

You stated, "I'm really starting to think that you're crazy. "

I understand my position quite well, thank you. Calling people crazy because they don't believe your anecdotal evidence is rude.

I have based my opinions on facts, education, and experience. My position is not, as you state "pat governmental bureaucracy social worker school."

I am not interested in reading any more of your blame the victim, corruption runs ramped within the food stamp program argument. You have yet to cite facts on this. I provided a list of checks and balances that prevents most corruption and you ignore those facts.

35.9 MILLION people live in poverty

[superconnected]

179. you sure don't sound left leaning

"And they were NOT buying this stuff from the thrift store. The GAP clothes, and TOMMY clothes were mostly on single girls and their children, when I worked at a group home. These girls ALMOST ALWAYS had families that would show up in nice cars and they'd all go out to mid-priced restaurants -- the parents just didn't want to deal with actually shelling out to support their pregnant 17-year-old, so they just let the state pay for their housing, and food, health insurance and caseworking, and then, when they wanted to "show" the child around, on visits, they'd buy an expensive stroller and brand-name clothes for the kids."

And you don't sound very informed either.

I am wearing $5 adidas shoes and a $6 adidas jacket I got from a thrift store. I'm a systems engineer but I prefer to keep my money and not spend it on clothes. I don't pay $35-50 for my adidas. I don't like gap, it's all over the thrift stores. I like my abercrombie, calvin klein shirts, old navy, etc. All which I wear regulary and have only bought those brands from thrift stores. I don't shop for clothes often but if I do, that's when I go to a thrift store. My levis were bought from a regular store but if I could find them cheaper at a thrift store in my size and style, I would get them there.

I'm a smart shopper, no debt, no car payments. I do not blow my money on clothes.

Perhaps you should visit a thrift store sometime. Wonderful selection.

In my early 20's when I was broke, my roommate and I had to shop at thrift stores, and we always dressed well.

Want to hear about the kill I made at half price books yesterday, it was awesome?

[Cats Against Frist]

186. No, I KNEW they were purchased new

because some of them were gifts from their neglective parents, and I watched the girls take the bus back and forth to the Mall. Don't try to shyster me, here. My second job in social services was two years as a supervisor at a group home.

The problem here, I think, in some of these communications, is not that I'm not "left enough," but that I'm SO LEFT that most people can't understand why I consider goods that are priced outside of their use value to be wasteful, and by letting people get away with this, it pulls resources from those who really need it.

Here's an example from my first job, which was as a home interventionist and caseworker.

Two families:

The first has three kids and two adults. The children are all the children of the father, who is mentally handicapped, who is the second cousin of the mother. The kids' heads are shaved bald from lice. Their house is damn-near unliveable. The mother works 10 hours a week at McDonald's, so she can get EIC, basically. Their electricity is coming dangerously close to being cut off, and they get their EIC check, which is around $3,000. What do they buy? A stereo with giant speakers and a new VCR. They did save part of it to get their car fixed.

Family no. 2:

Mother, unemployable, breast cancer -- but, the cancer is in remission. State is paying for all treatment and letting the mother and her FOUR KIDS live for free in public housing. All good with me. However, the FOURTH KID is 18-years-old, perfectly employable, and spends his days lying on the couch playing playstation, drinking and smoking Marlboros. In addition, the father, whose rights have been terminated for breaking one of the kids' arms is living there, but I can't do anything about it, without clear, indisputible evidence.

Mother is dying of cancer, three young siblings, one ingrate, a child abuser and the state is picking up the whole goddamn tab.

Saddest part is, that I was assigned the case because housing was getting ready to KICK THEM OUT because of property damage from parties.

Is there anything that could have been done differently here to better these situations?

Well, that's what I was assigned for -- but I was given no real power, except that of, good god, my own encouragement and organization, and I DID make life better for the second group: got the kid a job (that he lost shortly afterward), got housing to let them stay, got the perp out of the house and secured them some extra state money to get some of their shit straightened out.

The first people were a lost fucking cause. Those kids should have been pulled, and the parents thrown in jail -- and again, I'm a goddamn libertarian, so for me to suggest the state should have terminated parental rights is pretty serious. But they didn't. Why?

Because the whole system is a band-aid. And not even a waterproof one, or one with pretty colors. It's a generic fucking adhesive bandage.

Who do I blame? There's a hell of a lot of people to blame. I realize that Churchill's "collective blame" isn't a popular idea, these days, but I think we're all to blame -- everyone, except the kids, that is, for letting consumerism isolate us and render some of us barely functioning cogs and victims of human capital. And the middle class sustains this just as much as everyone else.

THIS is why I'm a libertarian. My anger is not directed at the poor and not at the rich, but at the comfortable middle class. The ones with the numbers, with the fake fucking religion that never choose to do a goddamn thing. Not even VOTE for fuck's sake.

[Lisabtrucking]

188. These story's make me mad also, but don't get rid of a program

That helps a lot of people because of a few that screw the system. Why not fix it so the social worker can do something about such people like in your story. Make them go to parenting class's, go to group meetings "like AA", anything is better then punishing many who really need the extra money to make ends meet.

[Cats Against Frist]

191. No, I agree, and I find it funny that I've been accused of wanting to end

the program or cut money from the poor, when I've said no such thing. Not once. Not once.

[Pithlet]

243. No, but

You are using anecdotal evidence to support your claim. Something that a lot of people on the right side of this issue do. All of these abuses that they see. And they use that stuff they see to justify their position. Pretty much what you seem to be doing. You haven't used the exact words "welfare queen", but you might as well have.

[ultraist]

197. Totally focused on blaming the victim

Otherwise, he/she would not be harping on the corruption aspect that she/he has yet to prove is really an issue.

I HIGHLY doubt this person has a degree in Social work. The NASW has a code of ethics that includes advocating FOR marginalized persons and discourages blaming the victim. Systems theory is BIG within that profession as is SOCIAL JUSTICE.

[Cats Against Frist]

200. Uh -- when did I say that I have a degree in Social Work?

Didn't you know? They hire fucking anyone to fill these positions, because there are a shortage of people who wish to be paid shit to be surrounded by depression, hopelessness and misery.

Think about that, while you're crucifying me. And yes, I'm blaming the victim -- right along with everyone else who is responsible, including, me, you, the broad middle class, rich assholes, the government, the television and the advertisers.

[Name removed]

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[Cats Against Frist]

209. Okay -- could you please quote for me

1. Where I said that I hated the poor.

2. Where I said that poor children shouldn't be taken care of.

3. Where I was "angry" with "the poor." -- Not citing SPECIFIC EXAMPLES from my three years in social work. I already explained that the "fucking" in "their fucking kids," was emphasis -- NOT trying to be insulting. I've explained that at least three times in this thread.

Think of it from a different way. I am attacking consumerism. I am attacking the apathy of the middle class toward the poor. And YES, I am making the poor partially responsible for their own behavior.

YOU tell ME what's wrong with that.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[ultraist]

207. Like I said...

in light of your harsh, punitive view and insistence to focus on this supposed corruption, I really hope you no longer work with the poor.

Sounds very "strict father" to me. Have you read any Lakoff? Or systems theory?

The fact is, "consumer impulse" or whatever term you choose to cloak your "welfare queen" argument in, is not an appropriate area to focus on. Blaming the victim will not solve the problem.

The fact is, there is very little corruption in the food stamp program. Provide some facts on this or find some other way to blame the victim.

[Cats Against Frist]

221. For the millionth time, I don't support cutting the food stamp benefit

Never said it once. Never said that I don't want kids taken care of. And I focus on the corruption, because that's where the waste is -- and waste can go to people who really need it, or should be given better opportunities because they ARE responsible and trying to do the right thing. What part of that don't you understand?

[superconnected]

202. That's what I'm getting from him too

very blame the victim.

It's as if he believes these people don't have a right to buy something outside of basic needs - which having a stereo may just fall under if this person has been finanically repressed long enough and feels everyone else has nice things and not them, and their self image diminishes because of it.

[Cats Against Frist]

220. I will come right out and say that I don't care about anyone's self-image

if that image is rooted in equating one's worth with material goods. We should be teaching the unfortunate the EXACT opposite, instead of excusing it. Along with anyone else who equates their self-worth with materiality.

[superconnected]

238. your issues with materialism are your issues

not something to hold everyone else to.

[conflictgirl]

257. Just FYI

I can get Tommy Hilfiger clothes on sale at places like TJ Maxx at clearance time for MUCH less than I could get clothes at Target. I've gotten designer-label shirts for $3 before - less than it costs to get a regular shirt at the Goodwill in town. You can't make assumptions about the money spent on the clothing they're wearing either.

[LynnTheDem]

120. There are US soldiers & their families on food stamps.

That alone I find disgusting. What the f*ck are we, the USSA???

And then to add more injury to injury, they (and all Americans) are to get their food stamps CUT.

BUT BUSH WANTS $100 MILLION OF OUR DOLLARS SO POLAND CAN UPDATE THEIR MILITARY.

[knitter4democracy]

137. The Food Stamp program isn't just about the poor

It's also about farmers. Of course, these days, it's also about huge multi-national food conglomerates, but it's still also about farmers. Our local farmer's market takes food stamps and for good reason.

I know, the system needs fixing, but at least it's still working enough to make sure that there are people not starving to death. You're absolutely right--they are evildoers! How can they stand there and demand that a good system that feeds people needs to be dismantled?!

You know, the last president who advocated faith based initiatives was Hoover. 'Nuff said.

[lapislzi]

155. OK--I've been on food stamps

Reading through this thread reminds me how lucky we all are. Few of us need food stamps. To post on these boards at all requires a computer and internet access. Literacy. It's easy to forget the service workers, the working poor, the underemployed, who make our lifestyles possible. Spare a care.

Applying for food stamps is a humiliating affair (thanks, leftymom). My parents had to do it. Putting them to use is no more empowering, believe me. You're in the grocery store. In my case, it was in an affluent area. The clerk has never seen food stamps, and she yells into the intercom for a manager, "FOOD STAMPS ON 7!" The manager comes over to explain that you can't pay for Tampax or toothpaste with the food stamps (we knew this and had separated our order prior to checkout.

You really don't live very well. It's not "free food." You pay for the stamps. I don't remember the ratio offhand, but the program is just a helping hand to make your food dollars go further. We ate eggs, beans, and rice for a year until my father found work.

And the food stamp experience was positively ennobling compared to the ordeal of Medicaid. That's another story for another thread.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

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[lapislzi]

158. It was so long ago that the stamps were scrip, not a card

That should suggest to you that during the times I'm describing (70s recession) the social safety net was a whole lot wider than it is today. Still, I remember the people in the social services office. Families with restless kids. People with shame in their eyes. It was a whole day affair, and you had to be periodically recertified, to make sure you were still poor. And this was just the food stamps room. The "AFDC" (welfare) room that I walked into one day by mistake, was exponentially worse. A cloud of misery hung over the place. Like if you went in, you weren't coming out, at least not as the same person.

My folks were driving a Dodge Ugly paid for by Grandma. My father gave up beer because we couldn't afford it. We went without TV for a year because it broke and we couldn't afford to get it fixed. We played Scrabble and charades. Actually, the experience proved beneficial to me, because it absolutely crystallized my emerging progressive views. If not for food stamps, my parents might have ultimately lost their home. If not for Medicaid (awful as it was), my mother would have died 10 years before she did.

Anybody who knows anything about "the system" knows that while it may be open to abuse, it is certainly no way to live. Not if you want to live with any shred of dignity.

To my parents' immense credit, by the way, I went on to college shortly thereafter, paid for it myself, got a Master's Degree, and am now, as a reasonably affluent American, proud to pay my fair share to the state that supported me.

edited for grammar

[ultraist]

165. What an inspiring story. Thank you.

I wish more could work their way out of poverty. And congrats on your accomplishments!

The family we have been sponsoring for 8 years will likely always need food stamps. The grandmother is disabled due to a heart condition and severe asthma and cannot work. She has custody of her grandchildren. These kids are such great kids and I hope this cut doesn't affect them or others like them. We do what we can for them, but we cannot afford to totally support this family.

Bushworld is so cruel.

President Kennedy's first Executive Order called for expanded food distribution and, on Feb. 2, 1961, he announced that food stamp pilot programs would be initiated.

Food Stamp Act of 1964 - August 31, 1964

On Jan. 31, 1964, President "New Deal" Johnson requested Congress to pass legislation making the FSP permanent. Secretary Orville Freeman submitted proposed legislation to establish a permanent FSP on April 17, 1964. The bill eventually passed by Congress was H.R. 10222, introduced by Congresswoman Sullivan. Among the official purposes of the Food Stamp Act of 1964 were strengthening the agricultural economy and providing improved levels of nutrition among low-income households; however, the practical purpose was to bring the pilot FSP under Congressional control and to enact the regulations into law.

Clinton: Welfare Reform Bill 1990s

[lapislzi]

185. Your story is every bit as inspiring.

You are generous to help support a poor family. I have long thought that if the Haves just take a *little* less, the Have Nots could have a *little* more. A little less profit, maybe? Just a little? Would that be so hard?

I have also always thought that LBJ was a visionary. Crazy as a bedbug, but there'll never be anything like the War on Poverty again. Those were heady times. (I was 3)

Keep up the good work. You shame the faux "compassionate conservatives."

[ultraist]

223. Thank you!

I was very poor as a young child. After my mother remarried when I was 10, we moved into the upper middle class.

One never forgets what it is like to go to bed hungry or be taunted because your clothes are raggedy and don't fit. I lived on swiss miss and instant breakfast the first 10 years of my life! LOL! It's no wonder I was so skinny. My mother worked and had little time to care for us. Even today, being a single mom is very difficult and it was pretty bad in the late sixties and early seventies.

I vowed as a child, that I would work in some capacity for children's rights. And although my contributions are very minuscule compared to most, it's very rewarding for me.

We adopted a five year old and we feel very fortunate he is a part of our family. He's 13 now and my daughter is 10. Both great kids!

[lapislzi]

240. Instant breakfast! Now THAT you could buy with food stamps

I lived on that too. The funniest was when we had to use powdered milk to mix up the instant breakfast. Large dust clouds in the kitchen.

We each do what we can. You are making a difference, certainly in the life of a kid who might not otherwise have had a chance.

[KissMeKate]

187. I remember waiting in those rooms

In southern california- with the plastic chairs all in rows, all I really remember was it was so boring and it took forever! lol.

Im grateful for the food stamps, and the medicaid- I remember the third time I saw a dentist, I had to have eleven fillings in my teeth, I hated that! But my teeth havent rotted out of my head, Im lucky to have had the coverage. I had the dignity of having all my teeth as an adult.

Alot of kids arent so lucky.

Yes, the safety net was much bigger back then. We pay exponentially with the prison system now, for the investments we refused to make in those children.

[lapislzi]

195. Prisons = profits

It's a brutish equation, but it's true. The prison industry is a giant cash cow.

As a survivor of poverty, I can see that upon struggling out of your circumstances, you have a choice. Having survived the experience, you can forget about it, and align yourself with the class of people you seek to join. This is, by and large, what Republicans do.

Or, you can use your experience and empathy to help others. You don't forget about it; you own it and it's part of what makes you human. I like to think that's the Democratic way.

[KissMeKate]

198. true.

ick, its depressing to remember prisons are profitable.

I think repugs are so traumatised by their own histories they have cut those experiences off, because it doesnt fit with their beliefs that poor people are "baaaaad" - I wonder that more of them dont have split personality disorders or something.

[KissMeKate]

170. poor people dont vote. sad, but true. They need to step up to the plate.

I hate to sound like a con, but this IS a personal responsibility issue. Poor people need to help advocate for themselves. They need to start by voting.

[ultraist]

174. I agree to some extent but we need to also advocate for marginalized

people. I worked on both voter registration and transportation to the polls during the campaign at the KE HQ in my area and of all of the volunteer work I did in the campaign, these two efforts were by far, the most rewarding. It was very gratifying to arrange and faciliate a ride to the polls for an elderly person living in poverty or poor mother who did not own a car.

It's not so easy for some to take off of work or take the bus to vote. Some people cannot afford to miss a few hours of work.

Another area of concern are college students. College students also don't vote. I guess they are too busy hanging out at Starbucks or downloading their IPODS.

[KissMeKate]

183. I agree, ultraist, it should be a two pronged approach.

as it is now, Politicians know they can get away with ignoring the poor because they dont vote in enough numbers to counter the fucktards who vote to cut taxes for Donald Trump.

Politicians cut programs for the poor and dehumanise "other peoples kids" with impunity.

[ultraist]

211. I feel strongly about voter reg drives and transportation to polls

efforts. I think there is a lot of fertile ground out there for Democrats. The fact is, if someone is strongly supported to vote the first time, they are more likely to vote the next time.

There is good reason why disenfranchised voters feel apathetic, but we can turn this around through outreach programs.

1.7 million fell into poverty last year alone. There is something terribly wrong.

[KissMeKate]

227. I think automatic registration is a good thing, maybe even mandatory

voting, like australia.

Youre right, getting first time voters over the hump is the big step, and its easier after that.

[lapislzi]

201. Sadly, there's no money in enfranchising the poor

Fewer and fewer politicians are willing to champion the cause of the poor. The poor don't donate to campaigns. Clinton cut the poor loose with his welfare reform bill. Legislators who stand up for the marginalized are often marginalized themselves. Look at Cynthia McKinney, or, more recently, the CBC. They've been held up to ridicule for the unforgivable sin of trying to help poor people vote.

[KissMeKate]

210. your eye is on the ball with your "follow the money" posts.

sometimes reality sucks!!!

is all I can come up with, when I think of that. Damnit, Im moving to Sweden! lol

[lapislzi]

213. You and me both

But damn, it's cold. I used to live in South Africa and it's starting to look good by comparison.

[KissMeKate]

225. our country is slowly going crazy. eom.

[ultraist]

228. Isn't it sad? All the more reason to stay involved!

I hope you two don't leave, we need compassionate and insightful people here!

[lapislzi]

231. Rah. I may joke, but I am staying

Never been one to walk away from a fight. I'll be here until I go out feet first. As a former expat, I feel strongly about how privileged I am to be here, and I'm committed to fixing what's wrong. In hindsight, I probably never shoulda left in the first place (I thought I was going to "fix" South Africa, and it was a convenient excuse to escape Ray-gun's America).

Peace to you.

[KissMeKate]

235. If Bush starts drafting nurses I will move- I mean that.

Im not registering in any govt program where Bush controls my job- even if its a conscientious objector job.

My husband may be in the navy, but Ill be damned if That fucktard in the white house gets me calling him commander in cheif.

[geniph]

239. I did PCO work in a couple of very poor precincts this year

(PCO-Precinct Committee Officer). I filled in for those precincts because there was no resident PCO, so I did the precinct doorbellings to drop off candidate literature, remind people to vote, and get people registered. What I found in the working class precinct was that so many people were so transient - they were forever moving around from one cheap apartment to another - they often didn't know how to get reregistered in their new precinct, new county, new state, whatever. A lot hadn't gotten their new registration cards or absentee ballots by Election Day, so I ended up explaining the provisional balloting procedures to quite a few of them.

A lot of the problems with poor folks not voting are just that - they're less settled than better-off people, so they have to forever redo their registrations, which is hard to find time to do when you're working two jobs. Plus they tend to get the shittiest balloting procedures - the precincts with too-few machines, too-few elections workers, long poll waits, machines that don't work, etc. That's no accident. I truly believe the poor are being deliberately disenfranchised.

[Betsy Ross]

241. Wal-Mart Stamps

Replace food stamps with Wal-Mart stamps. That should be easy legislation to pass. Continue to take the money from middle class taxpayers and give it to the poor to spend at Red stores.

[lapislzi]

242. Oh, perish the thought.

but you may be on to something. That's just what they'd do. And Wally World gets a big tax break to boot.

Maybe they can start paying their workforce in food stamps, since many who work there already qualify.

[GetTheRightVote]

247. Yes, the wealth of this country should be shared by all not just wealthy

We together must work towards that day by lifting our voices in everyway possible. We could have symbolic days based on color flags to show our soliditary as the working Americans.

Perhaps others also have some ideals to share in DU. This should be a daily or weekly action for the whole country to see and join in on.

One day wear white ribbons for the bakers, the next blue ribbons for the factory worker, yellow or orange for the construction worker, etc, etc.

What do you think ??

:kick:

[ultraist]

259. cool and i love the saying, "lift every voice"

was that dubois?

[OnionPatch]

264. I'm reading this post with a sort of sick feeling.

There was a time in my childhood, after our father abandoned our family, when my mom had to get food stamps for us to eat. She worked full-time but the job paid only minimum wage. She was an inexperienced housewife and could get no better. She was neither lazy, nor stupid. (To the contrary, she worked her **s off and had an IQ of 137.) She cooked and prepared healthy meals, many cooked from scratch, lots of veggies, etc. We were on food stamps for a total of about a year and a half. All of us are now college-educated professionals, paying plenty of taxes and contributing to society. One of the things that made me love my country is that it did not abandon us when we were in dire straights. It's hard to believe that someone (on our side of the aisle) would have begrudged me a stinking bag of potato chips once in awhile when we were going through bad times. I guess we were cheating the system when we dared buy ourselves a box of ice cream. I'd better line up there with Halliburton.;-)

[lonestarnot]

266. No SHIT for the poor ever again! Unless we continue the fight!