Bush SS Plan=BIGGEST TAX HIKE IN HISTORY!!!! 80% OF YOUR MONEY

[Beetwasher]

That you save goes to the gov't.

That is yet another way to frame it.

If they don't want to call it theft (which it actually is), then turn the tables and say Bush wants to tax your retirement BY 80 FUCKING PERCENT!!!!!!!!!

"If a worker sets aside $1,000 a year for 40 years, and earns 4 percent annually on investments, the account would grow to $99,800 in today's dollars, but the government would keep $78,700 -- or about 80 percent of the account. The remainder, $21,100, would be the worker's."

[Stephanie]

1. I still don't understand this

Why do they take 80%? What is the percentage with regular SS? Why would anybody be FOR this if they are going to lose 80%? What is the rhetoric about "ownership" referring to?

[Beetwasher]

4. There's Nothing To Understand, It's A SCAM

It's just blatant theft. They are stealing 80% of your money. It's that simple.

Actually, it's even worse. If the return on YOUR money is 3% or less, you LOSE ALL OF IT. IOW, you just threw away EVERYTHING THAT YOU SAVED. YOU LOSE 100% OF YOUR SAVINGS.

[cthrumatrix]

5. it's becuase they only give you market performance above 3%

"normal treasuy note returns" not all of your money.

If the market return were 3% over 40 yrs...you would have nothing.

You only get above 3% return and not even your contributions you made over x years.

[papau]

7. It is not "ownership" - you get a loan at 3% - if you make more

you get to keep it - and hopefully the extra monies will offset the benefit cuts.

If your investment sucks or is just average, you are out of luck and get much less than today's system.

I am beginning to wonder if Bush really wants private accounts - because this really is not designed so as to pass Congress.

It is looking more like Bush/GOP want a wedge issue for future elections that might bring to the GOP the under 30 vote.

[Beetwasher]

9. But it's A Loan FROM YOU to the Gov't!

Think about it. You work, and EARN that money. You then LOAN IT TO THE GOV'T, the gov't keeps ALL that money PLUS 3% interest on it! You ONLY get back anything over 3%!!! It's a loan from you to the gov't that NEVER GETS PAID BACK. It's friggin' retarded.

[Stephanie]

20. I am paying my money into the account

So why is it a loan?

Sorry to be so dense, but if you guys can't explain it to me then you won't be able to explain it to the Kool-Aid drinkers either.

[cthrumatrix]

24. becuase they are "saying" the principal +3% return is NOT yours

even though you paid into it....you never get that amount back.

You only will ever get back above 3% return. SO the principal and 3% gains (if any) are being used to get greater returns over time.

It's insane...it's a sham. It's nto anything the way bush states it and comares it to a 401k

[Stephanie]

26. How much of the $ I put into SS do I get back?

More than that? Why are they saying this is an investment plan if I am going to lose all of the principal?

[Beetwasher]

27. W SS Now, You DEFINITELY Get More Than That

I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but if you put in the maximum contributions, you get a guaranteed maximum payout when you retire. If you put in less than maximum, you're still guaranteed a regular check, but it's less than the maximum. It depend on how long you live after you retire whether you can recoup most of what you put in. That's not true w/ this scam.

Here's a link w/ some info:

http://www.aarp.org/bulletin/socialsec/Articles/a2003-06-24-paydaysooner.html

"Say that you're turning 62 sometime in 2003 and will be eligible, based on your lifetime earnings, for a monthly benefit of $1,444. Wait until your full retirement age, and the benefit will be $1,931 a month. Delay your benefits until you're 70, and you'll get $2,697 a month. (These figures are supplied by the Social Security Administration; cost-of-living adjustments would be added.)"

Using the example in the WP, SS would pay you more in one year than what you would get over your entire retirement w/ Bush's SS scam. Saving over 40 years would net you 21k under Bush's scam. W/ SS, that's less than one years payout.

[Stephanie]

28. This is unbelievable!

How come nobody knows about this!

[Beetwasher]

29. Keep in Mind, A 4% Annual Return is GENEROUS!!!

There's a good chance it would be less than that, which would mean YOU GET NOTHING (or almost nothing)! You threw your money away.

AND (here's the kicker) along w/ the scam THEY ARE CUTTING THE GUARANTEED BENEFITS OF EVERYONE!!!!!

[cthrumatrix]

31. privatization is not 100% of your soc sec....nobody has said what %

it will actually represent


It could be 30-40% complimented by normal soc sec.

It has not been discussed in detail.

[Beetwasher]

32. True BUT

It's still a sucky deal considering your guaranteed benefits will be cut AND you may get nothing from your private account if it doesn't get more than 3% annual return...

[cthrumatrix]

33. I agree..... WTF is the MSM on this "glaring lie" in the SOTU...!!!!!!!!!!

[Beetwasher]

34. I Know, It's Frustrating

:shrug:

[Beetwasher]

25. I'm Not Sure Why Some People Are Calling It A Loan

It's only a loan if you look at it as a loan FROM YOU to the gov't. A loan that NEVER get's paid back in full and that the gov't makes money on.

[cthrumatrix]

2. BINGO...and if it doesn't pass...look for a VAT.

[drscm]

3. And if it increases 3% or less, it is a 100% per cent tax - you lose it

all, and the government gets the principle.

[cthrumatrix]

6. that's correct...this is why they are calling it a loan.... (on your $$$$)

[Beetwasher]

8. Actually, It's A Bizzarro World "Loan"

It's really demented. YOU loan the gov't money, that it invests and then the gov't gets to keep the interest up to 3%. They DON'T pay back the money you are loaning them, ONLY the interest OVER 3%...It's a loan FROM YOU TO THE GOV'T. A loan THAT NEVER GETS PAID BACK IN FULL.

[cthrumatrix]

11. only if you lived 150 years and your lifetime annuity paid more

than you put in....pretty far fetched.

Plus a lifetime annuity does not adjust for inflation (typically)

[Beetwasher]

12. I Know, It's Hard For Me To Comprehend How Brazen They Are

This is so insane I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it. I truly can't believe they are attempting this. It's fucking nuts. It's outright theft.

[cthrumatrix]

13. it's a bait and switch program .... IF WE can see it's ludicrous then it

will be shelved for the "real plan"...which I believe is a VAT ...to collect more tax dollars


They had to start here to get there.

[elehhhhna]

14. It's the MBA Presidents MO. He gets his by stealing yours. Hello?!!

[kentuck]

10. Basically, that's the whole idea...

It's either that or give back the taxcut for the wealthy. Revenues have to come from somewhere. :shrug:

[bearfan454]

21. I say let's make those big companies pay and pay and pay.

I can dream can't I ?

[Norquist Nemesis]

15. Another part they're not touching is the FEES!

Does anyone supporting this venture into Vegas think the Government is going to pay the fees for the "private" mandatory investment (of which the individual has no input into where it's being invested, btw)? Don't think so! It will be "You opted the plan, You pay the price"

[Beetwasher]

17. Correct, They Haven't Even TOUCHED The Fees Yet

That's where that 80% that the gov't "keeps" is going. That money will NEVER go back to the gov't. That money will go the private firms managing the scam.

[CindyDale]

16. If this is what he is trying to put over he should be removed from office

This reminds me of the guys phoning up the elderly to steal their money in phony investments. They end up in jail if they're caught. Bush remains president?

[Beetwasher]

18. If????

No if's about it. This is what he's proposing. Read the article in the Washington Post, it's all in there.

[JHB]

30. They don't end up in jail, at least not for very long.

Just ask Charles Keating.
-----
American Continental Corporation, the parent of Lincoln Savings, went bankrupt in 1989; more than 21,000 mostly elderly investors lost their life savings, in total about $285 million, largely because they held securities backed by the parent company rather than deposits in the federally-insured institution, a distinction apparently lost on many if not most of them until it was too late.
...
In September 1990, Keating was criminally charged with having duped Lincoln's customers into buying worthless junk bonds of American Continental Corporation; he was convicted in state court in 1992 of fraud, racketeering and conspiracy and received a 10 year prison sentence. In January 1993, a federal conviction followed, with a 12 and a half year sentence. He spent four and a half years in prison, but both sentences were eventually overturned.
...
In 1999, on the eve of the retrial of the federal case, Keating entered a plea agreement: he admitted to having committed bankruptcy fraud by extracting $1 million from American Financial Corp. while already anticipating the collapse that happened weeks later; in return, the federal prosecutors dropped all other charges against him and his son, Charles Keating III. He was sentenced to the four years he had already served.

Keating remains essentially unrepentant, maintaining that not his mistakes, but regulators' actions, were ultimately responsible for the losses.
-----
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Keating

[bearfan454]

19. Let the sheeple that voted for him invest their money in it

and lose it. Good for those idiots. I DEMAND MY GUARANTEED GOVERNMENT BENEFIT from Social Security.

[CindyDale]

22. OK, then I have just four words to say

"Tune in, turn on, and drop out."

If they do this, we should just quit work, become hippies and not pay any more at all to this government. Let them figure out what the hell to do then.

[Walt Starr]

23. OUTSTANDING FRAME!

Well done. Truly a beautiful thing!

[ninkasi]

35. I needed to see that, Walt.

Off topic, I know, but I really felt good seeing your tribute to Khephra. On so many of these threads, I keep wondering what he would say.

Oh, and I've figured out what this "ownership" society is now. We pay them to own us. Sounds pretty fucked up to me.