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12 12 2000 Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 04:59 PM
Original message
Jews For Jesus pamphlet
I only just got around to looking through all the leaflets I stuffed into my bag while down in DC to protest "too stupid to be president's" inauguration, and was astonished to find one from the J4J crowd. Little childish cartoon pictures, with the following statements:
- Who Needs Politics?
-There are plenty of political systems to choose from
-Government by the people is Democracy
-Government by one person is Autocracy
- There is Communism, Socialism, Fascism, Humanism etc
etc THEN at the end
THERE IS ONLY ONE SYSTEM WHERE WE DO NOT SUBJECT OURSELVES AND OTHERS TO OUR OWN FALLIBLE AND ULTIMATELY DANGEROUS VALUES,
IT'S CALLED THEOCRACY!! (GOVERNMENT BY GOD)

This is Bush's base, folks, and they're putting it right out there in front of us, advocating for a bible-based constitution, while cheering on the inaugurations of war-mongering death merchants.

They write down their contact info: Ruth Rosen, Jews for Jesus, 11623 Nebel Street, Rockville, MD 20852, (301) 770-4000, email J4JesusDC@aol.com www.jewsforjesus.org Scary Crowd
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MsTryska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. and all this time i thought jews for jesus
was the punchline to soem mythical joke.

i ahd no idea they were real.
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Zebulon Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. They're real all right
but they are basically Baptists with a little Hebrew and a veneer of Jewish symbols and customs. Most of their funding comes from Christian fundamentalist groups. From my experience, half or more of 'messianic' congregations aren't even Jewish. Its just another way to try to proselytize Jews.
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MsTryska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Well thast makes sense.
I have a tought time believing real live jewish people could carry on this charade without even a hint of irony or sarcasm.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Most Of Us Don't
We used to joke these folks were hedging their bets...wanting to get both Chanukah and Christmas presents, and it's a very fringe group.

Judiasm's history has been filled with "false messiahs" (one named Jesus) and groups that try to create some action in the Jewish community. I consider the Orthodox...the very religious, right wing as far more of a danger, since these people funnel a lot of money to Repugnican, Neocon and PNAC think tanks.

When I encounter one...and I haven't in quite some time...I like to toy with 'em. When they see I'm Jewish (doesn't take much to tell), the eyes light up and I can expect even a conversation about nuclear fision to end up being about my Judiasm. Problem is I confuse the crap out of them. I explain I'm culturally, not religiously Jewish...this gets them perplexed since they lose not just the underpinnings to throw their Jesus jive at me, but they can't even debate being Jewish with me either. Damn...maybe it's time I go out and found me one to confront and have some fun with.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. They even have a website
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. there is a joke ;)
It was in a card my friend's sister sent their parents at Hanukkah.

Two people at table in restaurant; went something like this.

Woman: I do like a nice Brie.
Man: Yes, but you can't beat a good Cheddar.
Woman: And a well-aged Camembert is always a treat.
Jews for Cheeses


Okay, they're obnoxious (to be nice), but they seem to have a sense of humour:
http://www.jfjonline.org/pub/newsletters/1996-05/bits.htm

In San Francisco, missionary Robyn Wilk and volunteer Anna were handing out broadsides (tracts) titled "Rat Race" when a lady politely asked what they were about. When she heard the reply, "Jesus," she refused the tract, explaining that she was lactose intolerant. It turns out the lady thought she heard "cheeses." Despite our less-than-subtle "Jews for Jesus" T-shirts, we're occasionally mistaken for Jews for cheeses—the more liberal spin-off from Hasids* for Havarti. (*an ultra-Orthodox Jewish sect)

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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. I've met a few
and they are very colorful. we gotta be vigilant with these folks.
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Kber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
4. Aren't Jews for Jesus
kinda like vegetarians for meat?
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
26. Not really...
Edited on Fri Feb-04-05 01:48 AM by regnaD kciN
Think about it: Jesus himself was Jewish, as were the apostles and virtually all of his early followers. It wasn't until the last few years of the first century, following the destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans, that both "sides" basically kicked each other out. Until then, what was beginning to become known as Christianity was regarded as just another Jewish sect, albeit a rather unusual one.

Now, as to the modern-day JfJ...from what I know about them, they are primarily Jewish converts who have adopted a party-line fundamentalist agenda (literally -- much of their Statement of Principles goes straight back to "The Fundamentals" published in the early 20th century). They practice Jewish ceremonies and festivals (Sabbath, Passover, Tabernacles, etc.) as well as or instead of the parallel rites of mainstream Christianity. There are some more extreme groups of "messianic Jews" who believe that most of the current Christian church is a corruption, and that true followers of Jesus must adopt Jewish practices (while, at the same time, holding that he was God incarnate), but I don't believe they are in the JfJ itself.

Despite the insistence of some in the Jewish community, I see no sign that JfJ members aren't (ethnically) Jewish at all, although they fudge the issue a bit by declaring that one is Jewish if either of one's parents is Jewish. (Most branches of mainstream Judaism require one's mother to be Jewish for you to be considered one as well.)

I will grant that JfJers are free to practice whatever religious faith seems right to them. I'll let Jews debate over whether or not they are truly Jewish, and restrict myself to commenting that I'm not particularly comfortable with fundamentalism, such as that of the JfJ, being considered a mainstream form of Christianity.

Oh, and one more thing. If, for whatever reason, you manage to get your name placed on the JfJ mailing list, be warned that it is virtually impossible to get it off it, and resign yourself to regular doses of Messianic mass-mailings. :-(

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Danmel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. I always figured they just wanted to piss off their parents,
but not bother converting. I had no idea they were right wing nuts. I try really hard to avoid them when I see them. They irritate me. Jews are misunderstood enough without that too.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Good enough reason take up any religion, IMO. nt
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. How would true theocracy even be possible?
Unless, God came down to govern. If that happens, it will happen whether or not anyone wanted it to happen. Theocracy as practiced by humans does subject ourselves and others to our own faliiable and ultimately dangerous values.
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CaptainCorc Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Excellent observation there to my way of thinking
If God's laws are to be administered by a bunch of kooks entrenched in the "authority" of "God's word" as set forth in the Bible then it's not hard to see that a theocracy is not going to come anywhere close to being a perfect form of government.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. "God's away from his desk. But he left instructions with me."
Edited on Wed Feb-02-05 06:25 PM by Inland
That's how Theocracy works.
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Zebulon Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Yep
You've got it!
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. Don't get me started on the "Jews for Jesus" cult.
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. Is that anything like Christians for Mohammed?
:shrug:

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Bees_Bees Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
27. That's great!
LOL! I doubt it though. If Christians believed in the prophet Muhammed, they would convert to Islam. Why don't jews who worship Jesus call themselves Christians? They hate being labeled as Christians, right? I know the feeling.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
11. Bunch of kooks
My Mormon and Evangelical and Salvationist friends and colleagues take me for what I am and who I am --- and if my Mitzvot ("Good works" - doing justly, loving mercy, walking humbly with God, voting progressive) don't get me salvation --- neither will being "Born Again"

Crazy historical footnote - there are "Jews for Mohammed" kinda - a tiny community in Turkey who partially converted about 700-800 years ago - but still observe both sets of customs (not hard - Glatt Kosher is a subset of Hallal).
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Zebulon Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. Re: Crazy historical footnote
there are "Jews for Mohammed" kinda - a tiny community in Turkey who partially converted about 700-800 years ago - but still observe both sets of customs

Those would be Sabbatarians, the remnants of the followers of the self-declared messiah (and probable bipolar) Shabbatai Zvi. He created a huge furor among Jewish communities throughout Europe, who had suffered from centuries of repression and were ripe for false hopes. The Turkish government gave him an ultimatum: convert to Islam or die. He converted.

His followers, naturally, justified what he did as "all part of the plan".
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louis c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. Jews for Jesus
is the definition of Christianity.

the old testament is the Jewish religion. When you believe that book, and the New Testament, you are a Jew for Jesus.

Or in layman's terms, a Christian.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
14. I guess I better start worring that the jews not for jesus
Edited on Wed Feb-02-05 06:10 PM by superconnected
end up being rounded up with the gays and muslims

What a way to throw anti-semantism into the mix. Call it pro jew, then replace it with Jesus lovers. Thats soo right wing...
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
19. A Theocracy is the most dangerous kind of Government
Not because of God. I personally believe in God. But because of the fact that every government eventually has human hands touching it, and this leaves room for a corrupt man who says he is God's representative to rule with an iron fist and create an outright horrible government.

Imagine Pat Robertson as President, and for God's sakes the man doesn't even know the Constitution, because they want to get rid of it! That is what a Theocracy would look like.
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Zebulon Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. If you really want some scary reading
Do a google search on Christian Reconstructionism, Gary North, R.J. Rushdoony, the Rutherford Institute, et. al.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
20. How do you piss off two religions at once?
--IMM
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
21. marginal as a group, and shrinking

They endlessly leafleted my college's campus and, since I look plausibly Jewish I guess and was somewhat acculturated by various gfs (yeah, you Jewish gals are the best), got proselytized at by J4Js a fair amount. They were a bit unlucky in that I had left Christianity behind shortly before....

J4Js is financed and 'strategized' by Christian Right churches, principally the Southern Baptists. They're an offshoot of the late Seventies/early Eighties Christian Right wave of activism. In their first few years they picked off a small bunch of American Jews, but most of them seem to have walked away after a few months or years. Their successful period was the wake of the 1988-1992ish wave of immigration of Russian Jews into the U.S.- I think at their peak around 1995-96 they claimed about 20,000 members in their congregational religious arm, and last I checked that was down to 12,000 in ~2001. They're now focussed on proselytizing and 'converting' the elderly Jewish population that chose to remain in the countries of the former Soviet Union and the Balkans.

If you understand their target audience to be elderly Russian emigrees whose essential beliefs are contempt for Soviet Communism and little tangible connection to Judaism- no raising in it, little sense of the religion or full ethos, many are part Jewish and/or simply don't have any Semitic features- and whose life in the U.S. (or, in part, Eastern Europe) seems absurd even to themselves, then this pamphlet comes across as not that crude a play at what these people resent and their experience and the alienation they feel.

Another thing to point out is the resemblence of the message in this pamphlet to Libertarian/Objectivism in its political ideology. Let me point out that Ayn Rand was born Alissa Rosenbaum in the Ukraine and raised secularly. After her family fled the Soviet Union and immigrated to the U.S. she became a writer and found this brand of politics, which makes no sense whatsoever unless you realize that it is simply an embrace and brewing together of all secular ideals opposite to those of Soviet Communism. It's a reactionary movement to Soviet Communism. Also don't forget that via their Southern Baptist funding, J4J is forced to work to benefit the Christian Right/Republican political effort too. Russian emigrees tend to fall for the Republican tough-on-enemies/anti-'socialism' line anyway; they see American things through the lens of their harsh Russian experience and take some time to understand the full situation here. (Russian emigrees are a mainstay for Sharon's hardline politics in Israel, btw.)

As far as I can tell, the American Jewish community's response to J4J has basically worked- there was a strong concerted effort for a year or two in the mid-Nineties- and, while the arguments and social pressure impositions weren't necessarily fair either, mainstream Jewish folk as a group now do regard J4Js as the intellectually flakey and socially/religiously marginal affair that seems inherent in its shaky foundations.

The generous way of looking at 'Messianic Judaism' and J4Js is that they're a social and religious group for people on the margins of American (or Orthodox, in the rest of the world) Judaism who are or represent the part of Ashkenazi culture and society that isn't fully Jewish. Ashkenzi Jewish culture was, after all, a hybrid, with inmarriage and semi-absorption of some Slavic and Balkan people and groups, probably some Chazar groups, indeed a bit of all population groups of Eastern Europe. These people today getting together under the banner of J4Js and such could be regarded as being the descendents of people of those inmarried groups, and, finding themselves not fully Jewishly committed or convinced or obligated or fated, nor fully apostate for that matter, they're choosing this particular state of socioreligious limbo or intermediacy.

It may, in all fairness, be appropriate for such people. What is wrong about it is its marketing and its politics toward people who are not part of it- and the trail of responsibility for that leads straight to the American Christian Right.

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Zebulon Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Heheheh
Edited on Wed Feb-02-05 09:37 PM by Zebulon
These people today getting together under the banner of J4Js and such could be regarded as being the descendents of people of those inmarried groups, and, finding themselves not fully Jewishly committed or convinced or obligated or fated, nor fully apostate for that matter, they're choosing this particular state of socioreligious limbo or intermediacy.

Others, like me, became Reform Jews. :)

Which does have the advantage of not picking up all the Christian theological baggage.
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Sgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. They are not Jewish
Last count, half of them are apostates and can't make a minion.

The other half are in no way shape or form jewish.

J4J is a neferious plot by right ring fundamentalists to convert Jews to Christianity. They take up the nomenclature and services of Orthodox Jeudiasm to make Jewish converts more comfortable.

The have no connection with any form of Jeudiasm, no funding, no support, and no respect. Their money comes from Baptists, and IMHO, they are a Baptist congregation which tries to decieve Jews who are not comfortable or familiar with their religion (hereditary Jews, etc.).
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