I'm So Thrilled About the Democracy in Iraq....

[louis c]

that I can hardly sleep.

Big f**king deal.

1,500 Americans are dead. 10,000 are wounded. Hundreds of coalition forces are dead and wounded.

At least 30,000 Iraqis are dead, and countless thousands are wounded.

$250 Billion dollars of US taxpayers' money have been wasted, while our economy sputters and domestic problems go unsolved.

All this for some version of democracy that puts Iraq in the hands of a political party called "the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq" which is backed by a "Grand Ayatollah" who was born in Iran.

Seems to me that we could have handed Iraq over to the Iranian Clerics a lot more cheaply than this.

[Cobalt Violet]

1. The RWers seem to have forgotten it was WMD lies that brought us there.

[mike_c]

4. stop saying that-- it's not true....

We invaded Iraq because gawd told W to smite them heathen eye-rackies....

[JanMichael]

2. I'm down with that. It's such a farce.

Such a farce. A deadly horrible farce.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

3. It's topsy turvey land, up is down, black is white, war is peace... EOM

[louis c]

6. I Don't Get It

When I Talk to my Right Wing freinds, they say we're in Iraq to chase down the terrorists. That we should kill all the Muslims, and God Bless George Bush for being so tough.

Then, Fox News tells me that we're there to bring stability, Democracy and freedom.

Are we there to kill them or kiss them? Tell me what the f**k the point is, just once without changing it. Please, just once.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

8. >>Are we there to kill them or kiss them

We are there to set up an economic colony... but don't forget, we handed over power to the Iraqis some time ago... and it was a A Grand Illusion..... Styx

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/19293/
The (New and Improved) Bremer Orders

A sampling of the most important Orders demonstrates the economic imprint left behind by Bremer:

Order #39 allows for the following: (1) privatization of Iraq's 200 state-owned enterprises; (2) 100 percent foreign ownership of Iraqi businesses; (3) "national treatment" of foreign firms; (4) unrestricted, tax-free remittance of all profits and other funds; and (5) 40-year ownership licenses. Thus, it allows the U.S. corporations operating in Iraq to own every business, do all of the work, and send all of their money home. Nothing needs to be reinvested locally to service the Iraqi economy, no Iraqi need be hired, no public services need be guaranteed, and workers' rights can easily be ignored. And corporations can take out their investments at any time.

Order #40 turns the banking sector from a state-run to a market-driven system overnight by allowing foreign banks to enter the Iraqi market and to purchase up to 50 percent of Iraqi banks.

Order #49 drops the tax rate on corporations from a high of 40 percent to a flat rate of 15 percent. The income tax rate is also capped at 15 percent.

Order #12 enacted on June 7, 2003 and renewed on February 24, 2004, suspends "all tariffs, customs duties, import taxes, licensing fees and similar surcharges for goods entering or leaving Iraq, and all other trade restrictions that may apply to such goods." This led to an immediate and dramatic inflow of cheap consumer products, which has essentially wiped out all local providers of the same products. This could have significant long-term implications for domestic production as well.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0630-01.htm
Iraqis for the most, have endured worse deprivation then even under the embargo, unaccountable slaughters, houses searched and trashed along with thefts by US troops; kidnappings the horrors of Abu Ghraib, the siege of Fallujah, Najav, home demolitions - as Israeli methods in Palestine - throughout the country, mass graves courtesy of the USA, more torture at the hands of the British. What might have been a small chink of uncertain light was extinguished. Iraqis were excluded from their own history by what will certainly now be seen as a cowardly, Quisling government. It will also not be lost on Iraqis that Iyad Allawi has said remarkably little in condemnation of the torture of prisoners, or about charges, trials or potential releases.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0629-01.htm
Iraq Regime Change a Sham, Say Mideast Experts
by Thalif Deen

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0421-05.htm
Published on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Robert Fisk: Iraq Power Handover 'A Fraud'
Interview by reporter Tony Jones

[htuttle]

5. The ultimate outcome...

...is likely to be the same as if we'd never supported Saddam through the '80's. Except for all the deaths. And the fact that everyone hates us now. And all the crippling debt we heaped on ourselves and our children.

Saddam was propped up as a 'bulwark against militant Islam' (quoting from memory some Reaganite claptrap I rememeber from that time). Now that he's gone, and we've REALLY pissed off 'militant Islam', we're likely to see the political pendulum in Iraq swing the other way. That's not 'our' way, btw.

Just as our involvement in Iran was disastrous from sponsoring the coup against Mossadegh in 1953 until the present, our involvement in Iraq will turn out just as, if not more, disastrous.

[imenja]

7. The war has been a travesty, no question

but let's not be so quick to condemn the elections before we see what unfolds for Iraqi government. The elections have gotten reasonably good press in the Arab world, including on Al Jazeera. It is possible that this may be good thing for Iraqis, in spite of the United States rather than because of the war. If being wrong in my assessment of the future of Iraq means lives will be saved, I'll happily eat crow.

I've decided to withhold judgment until further evidence is available--not on the war, which is not justifiable, but on the elections.

[louis c]

11. Look, It's easy to understand

Sistani runs the show.

He is a fundamentalist Muslim Cleric cut from the same cloth as the Iranians.

He, as well as almost every one in the world, is much smarter than Bush & Company, especially about Iraq.

He figured out that Bushco. miscalculated early, and figured these morons are going to hand this country over to me and my clerics without my firing a shot. And they're going to pay me, too.

The Sunnis know that they're out of business, so they want no part of this game. The Americans are going to kill Sastani's enemies for him. He must figure "What Dopes".

That's why he pulls al Sader out of Najif, because that punk was going to F**k this up. Sader was dumber than Bush.

Sistani has never shown any sign of siding with the occupation, but he knew that there had to be an election for Bush to pull off some short term gain.

Once Sistani gains control of the Government in Iraq, he'll be calling all the shots. Bushco. is in so deep, that they are just playing for time.

Maybe Sistani will die before he gains controle, and some sort of plan B can take place.

Remember, however, that Sistani works behind the scenes, so others have the actual positions, so his death does not end his own plan.

One thing is for sure, Sistani calls the tune, and he knows the people of Iraq better than we do, and he controls the hearts and minds of its citizens, not Bushco.

[imenja]

12. wow, impressive

You must have tremendous powers of clairvoyance. I myself am a mere mortal. I will wait to see what happens, since I cannot predict the future. I am skeptical that anything in Iraq is so simple or that one man can so easily control a nation racked by instability and political violence. We shall see.

[louis c]

13. I heard the same

Remarks in 1969 when I wrote in my college paper that "Vietnamization" would never work and every life lost in South East Asia would be in vain.

You don't need clairvoyance to understand that history repeats itself.

And Muslim clerics control the hearts and minds of the Islamic world in the Middle East.

All you have to be is aware.

[imenja]

14. If it is true that Sistani is so powerful

that means he would be able to bring stability to Iraq. I don't see the parallel with Vietnam in this particular point you are making. (Though in terms of a quagmire for the US, the analogy holds). The problem with the war is that it has unleashed a sea of instability that now seems impossible to quell. An all powerful Sistani would easily be able to deal with that.

There are lots of clerics in Iraq. Sistani is not the only one who covets power. I don't have enough knowledge of Iraq to speak authoritatively on the subject, but I know nothing in politics or history is simple. Vietnam certainly was not. It is our understanding that tends to be simplistic. George Bush's certain is.

[louis c]

17. Iraq will be as stable as Iran

and just as anti-American.

[imenja]

21. that would be an improvement from the current situation

and from Saddam. It could turn out a lot worse than that.

[louis c]

25. But is it worth the cost?

We could improve the lot of folks in North Korea, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, China, Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Mongolia, Sudan, Libya, nearly every country in Africa, and on and on and on.

Are you ready to pay the price.

Again, I Remember 1970 when I thought that America finally figured out that we couldn't be the world's policeman. I thought we learned that lesson the hard way. But still, we have to be taught that same lesson every generation.

God Bless those brave young men and women who shed their blood.

and God Damn those who sent them.

[imenja]

26. no, absolutely not

It is not worth the cost. I have opposed the war from months before it broke out. Unfortunately, we have a war now, and the central problem is how we can get out. I don't think it will be as easy as you suggest. I think it will be difficult for any individual to assume the kind of power that will bring stability. I pray I'm wrong, because far too many lives have been lost already.

[jimshoes]

9. What galls me the most is

that every blunder and atrocity that has been committed up till now is being swept under the rug now that the Iraqi's have voted. Like you say "big f'n deal. The place is still a hornets nest and American kids are going to die and for what exactly now? They voted. Let's get the f*ck out. As if nothing else matters now that the Iraqi's voted. This has to be the most hollow victory in all of history.

[leftofthedial]

10. WAY not worth the price

all the dead

all the maimed

the illegal invasion

the war crimes

the hundreds of billions of dollars

the destruction of the country's infrastructure

but I do congratulate the Iraqis who expressed themselves at the polls.

if there is an ounce of justice in this universe (which there is not), the neocon death cult will rot in tortuous misery for all eternity for their unspeakable crimes.

[adigal]

15. Doncha know that freedom is on the march???

You must hate America, that's what Bushie thinks.

(sarcasm)

[AG78]

16. The elections were just a sham

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2326.htm

------

And the present course of action was clearly set forth: "The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

------

I just can't understand how anyone even has any thoughts about this whole thing working since there were "elections".

Great, Iraqi's had ink stained fingers. Well, they were pretty brave to go out and vote with the threat of violence hanging over them. But maybe they thought if they voted, we'd leave. Well they're mistaken. Maybe they were scared they were going to lose their food rations from the occupation army.

[LynnTheDem]

18. The majority of Shia who voted thought voting would get rid of the US

They're wrong.

And now they know they're wrong.

Voting was worth the try though, and a habit; after all, millions of Iraqis went to the polls to vote under Hussein, too.

Full-blown war, Iraq against the occupiers, next.

[trapper914]

19. Lancet's estimate

100,000 Iraqi civilian dead....so far.

[porkrind]

20. Like they say, "this has been a war on children"

100,000 Iraqis killed, 80% of them women and children.

Imagine 1,000 dead babies in each of the 50 states. This (at a minimum) is what we have done. This is a war on children, and we are winning. :(

BTW, here is an excellent summary of the Iraq catastrophe from Smirking Chimp. It's worth a read:

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?sid=19731&mode=nested&order=0

[RUDUing2]

22. and dont forget women in Iraq have less rights now then they did under SH.

for 55% of the country we took away rights...

women in Iraq under SH had more rights then the women in any other MidEast Arab country. It is more likely they will lose rights under a new regime since chances are that a new regime will be a religious one.

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/001896.html

BAGHDAD, Jan. 15 -- For the past four decades, Iraqi women have enjoyed some of the most modern legal protections in the Muslim world, under a civil code that prohibits marriage below the age of 18, arbitrary divorce and male favoritism in child custody and property inheritance disputes.

Saddam Hussein's dictatorship did not touch those rights. But the U.S.-backed Iraqi Governing Council has voted to wipe them out, ordering in late December that family laws shall be "canceled" and such issues placed under the jurisdiction of strict Islamic legal doctrine known as sharia.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/05/24/MN135276.DTL
Although Hussein's secular Baath Party created one of the world's most despotic regimes, it allowed Iraqi women personal rights and freedoms unparalleled in the Persian Gulf. Women could drive, travel abroad alone, study in universities, serve in the army and work side-by-side with men. Iraqi women, who make up at least 55 percent of the population and are among the most educated in the region, can become anything, from college professors to lawyers. They choose whom to marry and whether to marry at all.

[mopaul]

23. the world is saferer with saddam in a jail cell

we have always been at war with estonia.

[ComerPerro]

24. You would think they could have bribed Saddam for less

"Here's $150 billion. Get the fuck out of here and never come back".