Begining to Lean toward Dean

[usregimechange]

I had been supporting Kerry since he announced but recently I have been leaning Dean. The reason why: Kerry said in the Post that he supported full rights for homosexuals but then said they should not have the right to marry. Seperate but Equal? While I believe he is doing this to make himself more politically appealing it made me, with the fact that Dean won the $ primary, lean Dean. And, I am all for the subtle deception that is sad but necessary in politics but some things you should not sell out on. Human rights and civil liberties among them.

[pasadenademocrat]

1. I support Dean, but

I don't believe he is in favor of "gay marriage" per se. He is in favor of "civil unions" which have all the rights and responsibilites of marriage, but a different name. I don't think its such a big deal, and realize we make progress one step at a time, but some disagree and can't support a candidate who isn't in favor of "gay marriage"

[wheresthemind]

3. Dennis is the only one...

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/issue_gayrights.htm

"Dennis Kucinich's support of equal rights and civil rights for the GLBT community is unsurpassed by any presidential candidate. Indeed, he entered Congress in the mid-'90s after defeating a Republican incumbent by confronting and overcoming GOP "appeals to anti-gay bigotry," in the words of the Harvard Gay and Lesbian Review. The incumbent had sought to make an issue of Kucinich's support for gay rights and support from Barney Frank."

much more...

[w4rma]

2. It is my understanding that Dean and Kerry are no different on that issue

...
On no issue is the contrast between Dean's national image as a liberal and his reputation at home more evident than gay rights.

As he campaigns for president, Dean has won broad support from gays and lesbians for signing a bill that made Vermont the only state to give gay couples the same legal rights as married people. Dean says he put principle ahead of polls and stood up for what he believed in spite of the political risk. And he almost lost reelection in 2000 after the bill sparked a backlash.

But the matter of civil unions — like the governorship itself — was foisted on him by external events.

In 1999, the state Supreme Court unanimously decreed that gay couples were due the same legal rights of marriage as heterosexuals. Dean left it to lawmakers to respond, saying only that he would not sign a bill permitting gay marriage.

After a prolonged and fractious debate, the Legislature reached its compromise, coining the "civil union" concept that allows gay partners such benefits as inheritance and hospital-visitation rights, but not the same recognition as heterosexual marriage.

When the bill reached his desk, Dean signed it in the confines of his office, away from the reporters and camera crews gathered for a news conference. Critics bitterly quipped that he signed it in the closet. Dean says he avoided a showy ceremony to prevent further divisiveness.

To many in Vermont, the episode was pure Dean, a governor who focused on a few issues — health care for children, a balanced budget, paying down debt — and pursued them with few distractions.
...
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-dean12jul12,1,6655901.story?coll=la-home-leftrail

[killbotfactory]

18. It's true, although the LA Times article is not...

Dean came out in favor of the ruling in a matter of hours, and pushed the issue when other democrats wanted to send it to be studied until after the election because it was the right thing to do.

[unfrigginreal]

4. I'll wait to see what Clark decides

If Clark doesn't declare then I'm backing Dean too. It doesn't have anything to do with the gay marriage ammendment, even though I'm gay. I just want to support a Dem that can fire up the populace to get rid of the current regime. I think both of these men can do that but I believe that Clark might get a bigger draw from the other side.

[wheresthemind]

8. I really wonder...

what a world would be like where people voted on issues...

I think Dennis would win not only the primary, but the election in a heartbeat.

http://www.minnesotaforkucinich.com/dean.html

Sure its a little slanted, but I think most the issues speak for themselves.

[Tinoire]

11. If more people voted the issues

we wouldn't be in the mess we're in.

Between Dean and Kucinich, may the best man win though personally I think it's Kucinich by a wide margin. But then again, I'm waaaaay Left and desperate for real change in this country- not just a change from Bush.

[unfrigginreal]

13. How about this for an issue...

George Bush

[wheresthemind]

19. thank you...

thats another issue to vote Kucinich on!

"On the other side of the spectrum, no other candidate can attract disaffected voters, 3rd party voters and Ralph Nader supporters to the Democratic column like Kucinich. Across the country, Nader 2000 voters and Green Party sympathizers are joining his campaign, as are other 3rd party supporters."

http://kucinich.us/electable.htm

[unfrigginreal]

25. Keep up your spirit wheresthemind!

Support Dennis and support him hard BUT if he doesn't get the nomination vote for the person that is closest in supporting your issues AND can win the General Election. Please don't get suckered into a Ralph Nader vote like so many great Americans did in the last election.

[killbotfactory]

14. Here's a comparison that list forgot

Kucinich - Tinfoil-beanie-wearing pseudo-science-supporting nutcase
Dean - Sane

But seriously, that list is wrong on a few issues. I would be less flippant if Kucinich supporters wouldn't spread such bullshit like the list above.

[wheresthemind]

17. in all honesty

could you point some out with links?

I admin that site and we know its slanted and want to make changes to it, we think the issues can speak for themselves, without the slant. So if you could point out falsehoods and inconsistencies that be great.

EDIT: mann I'm tierd

[ThirdWheelLegend]

21. Yes I agree ...

Link please KBF...


TWL

[killbotfactory]

26. I hope you recognize the irony of asking me for links...

When you provide none of your own.

I've done this a few times before, but here you go:

Dean speech to NARAL - Read that and tell me a anti-choice judge would get past him.

MR. DEAN: No, not what their views—perhaps, that had to do with Roe vs. Wade or pending cases and I don’t ask that. I certainly ask them what their views are. What I do is I pose hypothetical questions about constitutional issues. And there are two ways you get disqualified. One is if you pander to what my well-known prejudices are and the other is if you clearly are outside the mainstream and have an ideological bent. I want people who will enforce the law. I think this president is appointing people in this Federalist Society which I consider to be pretty far right, and that becomes a litmus test.

Look, I don’t agree with Kate, and I was asked at the NARAL meeting, “Would you have a litmus test?” and the answer is no. But I can assure you that because of the screening process that I use, it would be incredibly unlikely that I’d ever nominate somebody who didn’t support Roe vs. Wade.

http://dean2004.blogspot.com/2003_03_09_dean2004_archive.html#90429857">03-09-03, Meet the Press interview He says a lot more on it in the interview.

On Iraq:
WMD's if classified as chem/bio, would not be enough for Dean to support unilateral invasion. He believed they probably had some. He would only support invasion if Iraq was giving chem/bio weapons to terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda or had a credible nuclear program.

MR. DEAN: See, I don’t think the president has made the case. I think what the president has made a reasonable case for is that Saddam is moving weapons around in terms of biologicals and chemicals, perhaps. He has not made a case for the three things that I think require or enable us to invade unilaterally or pre-emptively or preventively, as we are now calling it. He has not made the case for Saddam possessing nuclear weapons. He has not made the case that he has any kind of a credible nuclear program. And he has not made the case that Saddam is giving weapons of mass destruction to the terrorists. If he were doing any of those things, I think we would have a right to defend ourselves, and we should go in. That case has not been made, either by the president or Secretary Powell, and I don’t think that we ought to go in, if we don’t want to use the word unilaterally, than preventively or pre-emptively.

http://dean2004.blogspot.com/2003_03_09_dean2004_archive.html#90429857">03-09-03, Meet the Press interview

Also, in a Salon.com interview, Kucnich has said that he would support unilateral action if Iraq was proven to be an imminent threat. He doesn't say what would constitute an imminent threat, but has cited the lack of WMD's as proof that Iraq was not an imminent threat.

Dean would recognize civil unions/gay marriage at the federal level, get rid of DOMA which he says is unconstitutional, and push states to come up with their own solution.

Now, it seems to me that equal justice under the law, equal rights under the law, and equal protection under the law are something this country is founded on. So as president, what I would do is this. I would not tell states that they had to have civil unions, or try to get that passed through Congress. Because I think it's none of Congress' business, just the way DOMA was none of Congress' business. What I would say is, "You've got to find a way to make sure that everybody has equal rights under the law. We don't prescribe what that way is, and that the federal government should recognize civil unions, because there's 1,500 rights that you can't get unless you're a married person, and those ought to be available to gay and lesbian people too.

link

On Kyoto:

Regarding the Kyoto global warming treaty, he wouldn't sign it as is. He argues that the accord--since "it doesn't require the underdeveloped countries to do anything about greenhouse gases"--would "have the effect of moving the steel industry or other industries that pollute into countries where there are no requirements to improve their situation with greenhouse gasses." He wouldn't dump the treaty, as Bush did. Instead, he would continue to negotiate to make changes.

link

[kaitykaity]

9. I like a Dean/Clark ticket. Clark is going to be on

This Week this Sunday. He'd make the Dem ticket
immune to the national security card.

[wheresthemind]

15. your right

but what about that graham? Possibly handing the democrats flordia?

haha this is almost fun, all the possibilties, strategies, etc.

[kaitykaity]

20. Yeah, I like it. We can figure this thing out

and be proactive to defuse all the predictable
attacks and make the media whores suffer accordingly.

I like Clark because of the uniform and the
stars. Rove is so good at symbolism, the symbol
of a 4-star general is too good to pass up.

[killbotfactory]

16. Clark is also pretty good on the issues, too

And seems to echo Dean on quite a few of them, although most of his statements have been rather vague.

[Teacher4dean04]

5. Want more reasons to like Dean?

On the main page of his website, he has 3 new links, just under the link to sign the petition for those involved in SOTU address goofup to resign. The first one is a then-vs.-now of *Bush's WMD hunt. The second one is called Uranium and Niger: Pattern of Deceit, and is an excellent timeline of events. But the 3rd one takes the cake. It's a 25 page documentation of the assertions the *Bush admin made to persuade us to go to war versus the reality of ongoings. Unreal that 1)his staff took the time to compile the events so any and all interested can easily see for themselves what has happened, and 2)that he thinks it's important for people to have this type of information readily available.

While you're there, check the blogs...they're a lot of fun!

[ThirdWheelLegend]

6. Dennis Kucinich would be your best choice on this issue..

and on just about every other issue.

Anyway... as for GLBT rights

read this from the Kucinich website:

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/issue_gayrights.htm

snip>>
"Kucinich goes further than supporting civil unions for same-sex couples at the state level; he believes that, much like the Civil Rights legislation of the 1960s, federal law should protect civil unions, and that no state has a right to abridge basic rights to privacy. He would support the introduction of federal civil union legislation if the courts do not recognize this intrinsic right."
snip>>

TWL

[Desertrose]

12. Hey TWL, ever feel like yer

talkin to thin air sometimes??

:shrug:

I don't see how you can do any better than Dennis !

Peace
DR

[wheresthemind]

23. haha

I DO

Typical DU Topic: Dean, Kerry, and maybe Clark.

"I just wish one would compleatly repeal the patriot act!!"

::raises hand::

"I wish we had someone for full GLBT rights!

::raises hand higher and starts to squirm::

"Won't someone be absolutly firm in opposing the war!"

::Starts waving arms in the air::

"Wow Dean called for an investigation into the lies!"

::stands up jumping up and down screaming Dennis Kucinich!!!!::

[ThirdWheelLegend]

24. haha back at ya... you hit it exactly!

Too bad so many people have bought into the 'electability' lie.


GO DENNIS KUCINICH!


TWL

[killbotfactory]

27. How is Kucinich...

Going to get congress, which is way to the right of him, to go along with his agenda if he ever becomes president?

[kaitykaity]

7. I'm leaning that way too, mainly b.c of the $$$

I like the fact that Dean's a bomb thrower. I am soooo
sick of the namby-pamby spinelessness of the Daschle
Democrats.

That $7.5 million doesn't seem like much against the Bush
war chest, but if the Dems pool their resources, we stand
a fighting chance.

I was only leaning to Kerry b.c of his very rich
wife. Money, money, money.

Dawn

[silverchair]

10. dean has my vote all

the way baby!!! :kick:

[sasquatch]

22. Kucinich is #1

Dean is a close #2
Kerry gallops behind in #3
and all the rest can go to hell:mad: