Does the Nader factor make Dean a no-brainer?

[ScotTissue]

This thought dawned on me today; appreciate your thoughts.

Ralph Nader and his supporters are natural constituents of the Democratic left. These are our voters who are unhappy with the way the party has been conducting itself in the last several elections.

Ralph Nader will enter the election as a Green party nominee if the Democratic ticket is too far to the right to suit his concerns and the concerns of his supporters.

If the more left-centered Democratic nominees are given the nod (Kucinich or Dean), Nader will be less inclined to run his own campaign, a campaign ruinous to our shared objective of displacing the Bush junta.

If a more conservative Dem gets the nod, we may gain some independent moderate, but we will be inviting Nader into the game.

Isn't the specter of another abortive Nader foray obviated if Dean is the candidate? Isn't that win-win?

[clarkbarr]

1. Nothing will stop Nader

That ass is too conceited to put the needs of the masses above his selfish need to flaunt his egocentricity.

[ScotTissue]

2. Put it another way

If we nominate someone with progressive credibility, like Dean or Kucinich, doesn't that obviate the rational for a borderline Naderite to support Nader rather than the real contender, the nominee of the Democratic Party?

[jpgray]

3. Nader doesn't decide the nomination

Members of the Democratic party decide it. Rove doesn't decide it either. I don't think picking a candidate solely on appeasing/infuriating Nader/Rove is a good idea.

[w13rd0]

4. I tend to agree...

...besides, I think if we elect someone that has a campaign noted for its 'interactability' and connection with its supporters, the rest will follow.

[blm]

13. Nader likes that Dean attacks the other Democrats...

but, no way would he support the way Dean governed in Vermont as a compromising centrist. After Dean has blown his ammo at the other Dems he's left with the fact that HE, HIMSELF, aligned with Republicans AGAINST the progressive Dems in his state for 11 years.

[tjdee]

17. You are right.

Nader is really a piece of work, talking up Dean like that considering his record (which is not Nader-friendly).

It's because he likes that he's insulting Democrats.

[TLM]

41. More of the same BS Bashing...

If Dean was such a shit to the liberals in VT, why did they keep electing him for those 11 years?

BLM you act like because Dean did not march in lock step with every far out whim that some group on the left could come up with in VT, and because he dared to disagree with some liberal groups and (GASP) even say some liberals were wrong... that he was not a democrat or a progressive.

You ignore civil unions, ignore health care, ignore the land that was protected, ignore the sprawl that was restricted, ignore the 43% reduction in child abuse and 70% reduction in child sexual abuse, ignore the education reforms, ignore the net-metering program, ignore the welfare reform with job training/day care/health care/ and you ignore the fact that this was done while maintianing a balanced budget and paying down a quarter of the states debt.

[sendero]

20. I agree that is *should*

... but Nader doesn't behave logically, he's running on his own clock.

I think he will be in the race no matter what.

[FoxNewsIsTheDevil]

10. Burrrrrt!!!

[tjdee]

18. Now THAT looks nice. n/t

[Terwilliger]

25. Im still trying to figure that out

a man who worked in a small office stacked with paer for 40 years advocating for conumers is a raging egomaniac?

There's definitely something raging here :eyes:

[TLM]

43. You need to take a look at Nader's

stock investments, the massive amounts of money he transfers to friends and relatives under bogus non-profit groups, and his union busting.

[Eloriel]

5. I wish DUers (and everyone else) would make up their minds --

Dean is too liberal, or not liberal enough? Makes my head spin.

Eloriel

[JohnKleeb]

6. confusing I think hes the latter

I've heard people say why I support Dean because he is liberal then again I hear yeah hes pretty liberal but hes not that liberal and thats why. Its confusing most of Dean supporters are good folks but there are some who rain on the Kucinich parade and there are probably some of the vice versa too but they mostly say that Dean really isnt liberal which is not wrong at all.

[blm]

16. It's his WAY of speaking.

Think of Bush back in 1999-2000. Many moderate voters had no idea how conservative he was by the tone of his speeches. Some didn't even realize that he was solidly antiabortion, because his answer to the questions were generally benign..."The country's not ready for that yet, hearts need to be changed first on this issue."

When Dean was asked about the DLC, he never said he was part of the DLC while governor and was a shining example of all the DLC stands for. Instead, his answer was, "...I read some of their materials." Straight talk? He says he's "the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party, but, most of the time he governed he aligned with the Republicans AGAINST the progressive Dems.

The Progressive Party made significant gains while Dean was governor. There was a reasone they garnered 10% of the vote the last time he ran. Ask Ben and Jerry.

[TLM]

45. BLM why do you keep pushign this BS?

"When Dean was asked about the DLC, he never said he was part of the DLC while governor and was a shining example of all the DLC stands for."

And tell me when Did Kerry make that statement, BLM? Since Kerry is CURRENTLY a member of the DLC and I can find nothing from him criticising the way they recently attacked te actvist left?

If simply being a DLC member makes you an evil repuke, what then does it say about Kerry?

[poskonig]

47. blm, tlm...

I can't keep my lm's straight!

[ex_jew]

8. Dean is either McGovern or Hitler

or both ??? That's got to be a first. It's obvious that official circles are having a very hard time devising a caricature of someone who acts like a real human being. Too darn bad.

[pasadenademocrat]

7. Dean's not a liberal

He is a practical centrist, who realizing bush is a ultra right wing fascist, opposes him strongly, unlike most (but not all) so called moderate democrats, and even some liberals who believe the bush lie. Now they are starting to wake up with a reality hangover after getting drunk on the republican wine. Only a few actually didn't drink the Bush Kool Aid.

In regard to Ralph, I hope a more senior DU member can look at this link and start a subject for it. It is an online petition asking St Ralph not to run again.

WWW.AMIEVILORNOT.COM

Thanks

[messiah]

9. Dean

will have problems with lefty voters like me Dean=Gore.

[pasadenademocrat]

11. Well than,

I suggest you work for your candidate in the primary.

However, the question isn't whether Dean=Gore, or whomever the democratic nominee is, the question is does Dean=Bush. If you really believe so, than you should vote for your third party candidate, knowing it will probably elect the more conservative of the "mainstream" candidates

[w13rd0]

12. But Dean is also making a concerted effort to listen...

...and be responsive. His campaign makes an active effort to gather more information (good intel) upon which to base decisions. I believe that we have a unique opportunity to not only win (as a party) come Nov 2004, but actually have a 'revivial' of participatory democracy, in which we actually get heard on the issues that matter most to us as individuals...

That's the kind of factor that makes me thank Gore for the Internet ;)

Yes, he may have 'problems' with 'lefty voters', but I don't think those problems are insurmountable.

[robbedvoter]

14. Dean is more attractive since Ralph is endorsing Kuchinich

I am still balancing: NRA A rating vs burning flag amendment (impeachment,anti-choice). Maybe Clark will have it all!
One thing is sure: my vote will have nothing to do with what Ralphie wants or doesn't.

[tjdee]

15. He's also endorsing Dean, that's the point.

Nader is trying to blackmail the party into nominating Dean or Kucinich. Why Nader believes Dean is a liberal--he's not paying that much attention.

[Terwilliger]

28. I think he believes that Dean is more liberal than the others

as opposed to Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards, etc.

I KNOW I KNOW! But thats the thinking there.

[Terwilliger]

24. except that you felt it necessary to comment in this thread

your hatred reminds me of certain others who hated a certain other guy with rabid vitriol

[ThirdWheelLegend]

32. "(impeachment,anti-choice)"

He voted for inquiry into impeachment and VOTED AGAINST all four articles.

He said he wanted to have open hearings to get it settled. Thats why he voted for the inquiry.

Anit choice? He is the ONLY candidate that has stated being pro-choice is a litmus test for any judicial appointees.


http://www.kucinich.us/issues/issue_rightsreproductive.htm

TWL

[blondeatlast]

19. Dean--left??? (Shakes head in disbelief . . .)

Haven't even come close to committing to a candidate yet, but IMHO, Dean ain't no leftie.

[poskonig]

21. Nader gets the finger.

He cannot dictate to us who we run. He should either support a candidate in the primary and do his damnest to get that candidate elected, run in the primaries himself, or STFU.

I voted for Nader in 2004, but I'm quickly losing respect for him.

[LiberalLibra]

22. If you truly believe that Nader won't run REGARDLESS of who....

....the Dem nominee is then I have a bridge to sell you in Death Valley. nuff said!!

[Terwilliger]

23. Oh yeah? I'll make a bet with you

If Kucinich wins the Democratic party primary, Nader will drop out and throw his support behind Kucinich the next day.

Since that wont happen, its impossible to prove, but I'll make the bet with you nonetheless.

[TLM]

46. THat's not in line with what Nader a has said...

He wants to destroy the democratic party... even if it means targeting guys as liberal as Wellstone.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,393674,00.html

Nader often makes this "the worse, the better" point on the stump in relation to Republicans and the environment. He says that the Reagan-era interior secretary James Watt was useful because he was a "provocateur" for change, noting that Watt spurred a massive boost in the Sierra Club's membership. More recently, Nader applied the same logic to Bush himself. Here's the Los Angeles Times' account of a speech Nader gave at Chapman University in Orange, California, last week: "After lambasting Gore as part of a do-nothing Clinton administration, Nader said, 'If it were a choice between a provocateur and an anaesthetiser, I'd rather have a provocateur. It would mobilise us.' "

Lest this remark be considered an aberration, Nader has said similar things before. "When lose, they say it's because they are not appealing to the Republican voters," Nader told an audience in Madison, Wisconsin, a few months ago, according to a story in the Nation. "We want them to say they lost because a progressive movement took away votes."

That might make it sound like Nader's goal is to defeat Gore in order to shift the Democratic party to the left. But in a more recent interview with David Moberg in the socialist paper In These Times, Nader made it clear that his real mission is to destroy and then replace the Democratic party altogether. According to Moberg, Nader talked "about leading the Greens into a 'death struggle' with the Democratic party to determine which will be the majority party". Nader further and shockingly explained that he hopes in the future to run Green party candidates around the country, including against such progressive Democrats as Senator Paul Wellstone of Minnesota, Senator Russell Feingold of Wisconsin, and Representative Henry Waxman of California. "I hate to use military analogies," Nader said, "but this is war on the two parties."

[Fleshdancer]

26. I like Paul Begala's statement on this

on Crossfire. He made the comment that it isn't up to Nadar to decide who the Democratic candidate is and that Dean is a good enough candidate to win on his own merit regardless of whether Nadar runs or not. I should pull up the transcripts to get the direct quote but I'm feeling lazy this Saturday morning. The statement was made either last Thursday or Friday.

As far as the Dean debate (too liberal?/not liberal enough?) is concerned, I like that he can't be accurately catogorized as one or the other. I can only imagine how much this annoys Rove. Maybe I like it because I can relate...I'm hardcore liberal on certain issues, and very moderate on others. But that's just me.

[Terwilliger]

27. are all democrats this petty

"Nadar" "Nadar"

Is that like Al Bore, or Bill KKKlintoon?

[blondeatlast]

29. Petty? 3 words + 1 word

ANYBODY BUT BUSH

Florida

[Terwilliger]

30. so thats the excuse to call Nader "Nadar"?

??

[TLM]

50. Are all Nader supporters...

such whiny little gits? Good god, it looks like nothing more than a spelling error. Relax.

[TLM]

48. But that's just it Gloria, it's not just you.

There are vast vast numbers of voters out there who feel just as you do... we're in the merky middle. Not far out left wing nor all the way in the center.

Dean gets it.

[thermodynamic]

31. Knowing what I do about that wonderful awesome Nader,

I sure as hell would never ever vote for him. Ever.

Dunno about Nader personally (it's suggested he's a puke in Green clothing and I agree with them), but the Green voters themselves are Democrats fed up with the Democrats. That's all they are and I've said it lots of times before.

If the Greens are supposedly a problem, why isn't the Dem party trying to win them back and why do Dem voters insult them as much? Plenty of Green-bashers on DU and they sure as hell aren't doing anything even remotely constructive about the situation... (and are likely only enraging Greens to never ever ever vote Dem again, how's that for lack of intelligence on the Dems' part?)

Want Nader out? Keep Dean or Kucinich in. Any Green who reads up on candidates might just give the Dems another look. Maybe, I can't read minds...

Of course, we then have to deal with the so-called "moderate Dems", who might just vote repuke if some evil commie lefty like Dean or Kucinich becomes the candidate.

[TLM]

51. Have you seen what Dean said on this?

I think he nailed it.

"If the Greens are supposedly a problem, why isn't the Dem party trying to win them back and why do Dem voters insult them as much?"

There are really two main reasons some voted green in 2000. One group is feeling left out and left behind by the democratic party. They feel that the leadership is unresponsive and does not represent them any more.

The second group are the spoiled instant gratification kids who want to be anti-establishment more than anything. It is more about image and maintaining this kind of moral superiority than making any real political progress or achieving progressive goals. They are like the left's version of hardcore Christian fundamentalists. Nothing will ever change their minds, save for having to grow up and actually deal with the real world.


Now the first group can be reached. Dean is doing it. The first group will vote Dem again if we give them a reason to and if we show them they can work to reform the party from within, rather than throwing it to the republicans.

The second group however is always going to be contrarians. No matter what we do, even if the dems adopted every one of their supposed policy goals, they'd still find reason that the party was the root of all evil and must be destroyed. At some point we have to accept that it is a waste of energy trying to win over people who are opposed to the whole system from the get go. Asking how to win this second group over to the dems is asking how you should cook a steak to make it appealing to a vegetarian.



"Plenty of Green-bashers on DU and they sure as hell aren't doing anything even remotely constructive about the situation... (and are likely only enraging Greens to never ever ever vote Dem again, how's that for lack of intelligence on the Dems' part?)"

I was a green... I supported Nader in 2000 right up until he started lying to me about campaigning in swing states.

Some greens will wake up and figure out they've been duped by Nader, as I did. However that's not something that happens because of outside input... it is an issue of personal development and growing out of that childish "break the system" mentality. What we post to DU is not even going to be a blip on that radar for that process.

If posts on a message board make you decide to never ever vote dem again, I think chances were good you’d already reached that conclusion and are simply looking for an excuse.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

33. Dean is not in any way "left" - he is "right"

I'm sick to death of Dean's PR campaign to make himself "left" - you could call him a moderate, but he's more on the right wing of the Dems along with Lieberman and Graham.

What possible reason would Greens have for voting for Dean? So he can give us more "free trade agreements" and corporate welfare? wtf?

[Sean Reynolds]

34. Dean may not be far left, but he's further left than Lieberman and Graham.

I don't understand how ANYONE could say Dean is 'right' of center. I do believe on a lot of issues one could peg Lieberman, MAYBE Graham as being right of center, but Dean? C'mon.

One thing you ALL forget is the fact Dean is left on Social Issues, issues that mean a lot to a majority of Americans. That to me makes him more liberal than Lieberman, Graham, Edwards, and maybe even Kerry. Granted Dean may have a conservative NRA record, and he may be fiscally right of center. But when you weigh his stance on abortion, affirmative action, gay rights, civil rights, equal rights - calling him right to center, or a centrists is wrong.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

36. social liberal, economic conservative - just like Lieberman

I believe that Lieberman is pro-choice and pro-gay rights, like almost all Democrats. Like Lieberman, Dean is a right winger on economic issues, pro-corporation, pro-"free trade", anti-union, and anti-worker.

ANY Democrat getting the nomination will be socially liberal. The question is whether the Democrats vote for a right-winger on economic issue or a tradition FDR pro-labor Democrat.

Right now that's Kucinich or Gephardt.

[Sean Reynolds]

37. Lieberman isn't as liberal on social issues as you think.

Read this: http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/34/news-ireland.php

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

38. Lieberman & Dean - right wing economic conservatives

No thanks. If I wanted to vote Republican-Lite, well, you know.

[Sean Reynolds]

40. Oh ok.

So in your eyes you only vote based on one section of their views. So I guess you couldn't vote for someone that was against gay marriage, (Al Gore), voted FOR flag burning (Kucinich), and voted for a war (Kerry), because those tend to be more 'liberal' issues.

So who ya' gonna vote for?

[Mairead]

35. Quite *far* right, as Dems go

A vote for Dr Dean is a vote for corporatism. His entire record and all his statements as a candidate verify that. Anyone who can't see that has already taken the blue pill.

[TLM]

39. Nader will run regardless of who the Dems pick..

Remember these are people who ran against Wellstone.

[SEAburb]

42. The no-brainer is

this is another example of Nader's alliance with Bush. What Nader is saying is, if any Dem candidate who can beat Bush is nominated, he will enter the race as a third party candidate. Rove has already stated he wants to face Dean and Nader comes out and says he will stay out if, a centrist Dem, Dean is nominated. And we all know Dennis would be a weaker candidate than Dean. Nader shows he's on the darkside again.

[poskonig]

44. Simplicity, my friend.

Nader has spent his entire life fighting for progressive causes. The simplest explanation suggests Nader has an inflated sense of his own importance, as if he could blackmail the Democrats into voting for specific candidates.

While this does not make him a Republican troll, it does warrant him a foot in the ass.

[w4rma]

49. If Dean can balance the budget and work toward reversing the

income inequality trend, I will be estatic. If he passes policy that reverses the merger trend then I will also be estatic.

My problem with the current DLC is that they they, IMHO, do not support small buisnesses against their big buisness/big bully/potential robber baron competitors. This merger mania trend must end for democracy to continue. It's practically impossible to get rid of a corrupt corporation that has grown extremely large. Look at Enron, they are still around and they will likely change their name and stay around, despite their history.

Small buisnesses are being gobbled up by big buisness competitors. It is becoming harder and harder to run a small buisness and the capital required to start one is growing higher and higher because of entrenched big buisnesses who can dump products onto the market to take you out or who lobby Congress for laws that make it easier for them to do buisness and harder for competitors to even get into buisness.

[synthia]

52. left-centered ??

left-centered Democratic nominees are given the nod (Kucinich or Dean)

Kerry is further left than Dean and probably Edwards as well.