Regardless of the merits of what Bush has done in the past four years,

[KlatooBNikto]

if this leads the Islamic nations to realize that they are part of civilized society and are expected to deal with relationships rationally, may be we can achieve some things together.The almost total hold religion has on the imagination of Muslims must come to an end.Reason and logic must take the place of religious dogmas.

[Fiona]

1. Why would you presume

that the so-called "islamic nations" are NOT part of civilized society and do not currently expect to deal with relationships rationally?

Why should they be held to a higher standard than the US?

[noamnety]

2. Hmmmmm

If this leads the so-called Christian nations to realize that they are part of civilized society and are expected to deal with relationships rationally, may be we can achieve some things together. The almost total hold religion has on the imagination of the religious right must come to an end. Reason and logic must take the place of religious dogmas.


Hey, that sounds kind of insulting and bigoted when you insinuate that Christians are uncivilized, doesn't it?

[KlatooBNikto]

4. I posted this because,just like our fundamentalists, the Muslims are

also under the spell of religion.The difference is that most people in the West are bound by logic and reason.In Islamic countries, it is very easy to whip up passions claiming Islam is in danger.If you have ever seen a mob in Cairo or Islamabad, you will know what I mean.

[slay]

6. I happen to agree, but I don't think people are gonna gonna break

the "spell of religion", as you put it, anytime soon. These people are stoned on "God" and they don't want to go to rehab. They prefer to run amuck in the world spreading intolerance and violence, while hiding behind the shield of "God". That leaves rational people to sit back and go - what the fuck?

[Fiona]

By what reasonable measure can you claim

the West is bound by logic and reason?

[KlatooBNikto]

10. I say that because for the vast majority of people in the West,

religion exerts less and less hold each day.This is because the pressure of performing in advanced industrial societies requires a modicum of scientific education and our economic lives take a big bite out of our daily energies.In Islamic societies such a pressure is as yet non existent, except for places like Malaysia or Indonesia ( to some extent).I am betting that modernization will solve this problem but that requires enlightened leaders not beholden to the religious Imams.

[Fiona]

13. then i would respectfully say you're living in a fool's paradise

There is no sign, as far as I can see, that this country is liberating itself from religion. In fact, I see the opposite.

You may be right as far as Europe is concerned. But the US is decidedly NOT driven by science and reason, much to my dismay.

[noamnety]

17. Driven by science and reason

That's why we all acknowledge:

evolution
global warming
the need for energy conservation
condoms can reduce STDs

and support

stem cell research
access to birth control

These last 4 years we've been more driven by profits, fear and racism, as a whole.

[KlatooBNikto]

20. I know that there are dark recesses in America where religion and racism

exert their powerful influences but these are overshadowed by the constant demands our competitive economy makes on our skills which always means education, mostly technical, managerial and professional. I have yet to find anyone in the professions conforming to the type I would call religious in the extreme.

I am hoping the spreading globalization of industry would have the same effect on Islamic societies.By and large, the educational revolutions of China and India have largely bypassed these societies.
That is partly because of the stranglehold the Islamic lergy exerts on the rulers.

[slay]

23. Industry will not help. It is not Amercia's job to make the world better

America is falling apart. We have no business trying to fix the world when we can't even fix our own country.

[ashmanonar]

68. THANK YOU!

i got in an argument with my cousin the other night bc i said that "america isn't the world police"...bc we aren't!

[fujiyama]

39. Spreading globalization

is great in theory, but the dogma must be set aside FIRST. Only then can a nation move toward a society based on reason and the rule of law. Granted, we've seen nations have a relatively developed infrastricture, but many of these are what you might call "trust fund societies". They got rich because of oil and while their rulers gave the people material comforts, they didn't provide them with longer lasting skills and an education, especially in science and technology. This is especially in the case in SA, where you have a very young population, with no education, little job prospects, and an education filled with nothing but religious dogma. Plus, when things were going well, they relied completely on foreign labor.

Unless certain nations (Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are two that come mind), put aside more resources toward science and technology education, rather than toward madrassas, we'll see little if any improvement.

And our own government has no understanding of this. We're willing to give these nations billions of dollars in military aid because they are so called "allies in our War on Terror", with no conditions regarding human rights and the accountability of other aid (even non military aid can be diverted toward those means).

Another problem, as many of us have seen, is that globalization of industry in many cases has led to exploitation by wealthy corporations. An independant effort must be made by nations in education of sci/tech. That's the key.

[Crunchy Frog]

22. You must be living in a different country

than the one I've been living in. Can you tell me where it is so I can move there?

[qwertyMike]

62. You miss the point.

It's not about religion, it's about people in the Middle East telling us to please go away. We responded in a 'civilized' way. Ha Ha. What is it, 10,00 Iraqis dead now?
We are the barbarians.
"Yanqui's Go Home" has been the world-wide mantra since the '50's.

As for 9-11? Chickens- Roost.

Surprised it didn't happen years ago.

[qwertyMike]

63. Define 'Modernization'

McDonalds, MTV, Blue Jeans, DVD's???

More people in India know who Madonna is than know who Gandhi is.

Fuck that.

[noamnety]

9. pfffft

Stereotyping most muslims as being beyond logic and reason makes you look like a bigot.

Most people in the west just voted against allowing gays to have health benefits because they think it will destroy the "sanctity" of their own marriage. All it took was a warning that Christianity was in danger, seems to have whipped up their passions pretty well.

Or, for that matter, you can look at all the jingoistic patriots drooling at the thought of us killing all the Iraqis, or putting Muslims in concentration camps, if you aren't convinced of our mob mentality. If you've ever read anything by Ann Coulter or listened to her followers, you will know what I mean.

[KlatooBNikto]

12. I still believe that such people are a small minority among us, despite

the big noises they make.

[GoBlue]

19. Maybe true

but in case you hadn't noticed Christians do in fact rule the world.

[klyon]

50. say what ?

christians rule the world?
When was the pope put in charge?
Rule who?

KL

[MadHound]

11. Generalize and stereotype much there friend?

Not every Muslim is a fundementalist, nor is every Muslim "under the spell of religion" as you so quaintly put it. And I don't suppose you've noticed our own religious fanatics, fundementalist RW Christians, who are quite numerous, in fact there is a larger percentage of fundementalist Christians than there are fundementalist Muslims. And gee, amazing how easy it is to whip up these folks passions, just mention gay marriage, or Laci Peterson, and you've got an Insta-Riot.

I find your post to be full of inaccuracies, and rather paternalistic and bigotted in tone. Perhaps you would do yourself some good by going and visiting your local mosque, or at least talk with some people who are of the Muslim faith. It is obviouos that you haven't had much, if any, personal interaction with the Muslim faith.

The fact that you're using this religious bigotry in order to exonerate Bushco is just flat out wrong. I must seriously question your ethics and motivations if this excuse for genocide is how you truly feel. If this is your true feelings, then I truly feel sorry for you, and suggest that you go out and do your own research in the matter, rather than letting Faux, CNN and Free Republic be your only sources of information.

One last question for you friend, something you can do some research into. Which religion has killed more people in the name of their relgion, Islam or Christianity?

[Debs]

58. Really??

I infer by that, you dont think its easy to whip up passions in THIS country to claim America is in danger. If thats true you need to get out more. Do the names Iraq, Vietnam, Chile, the Dominican Republic, Brazil, Nicaragua, and Iran sound familiar. In each we either attacked or overthrew their governments. Except for Vietnam because of its longevity, and Iraq for which I am proud of the dissent, do you remember a huge outcry of indignation? When we were supporting proxy terrorism in Nicaragua didnt Raygun put the US in a state of emergency because of the danger Nicaragua posed to the US? The second poorest country in the hemisphere without a Navy or Air Force, a danger to us???? I read that Kennedy tried to get a security agreement from the OAS to isolate Cuba and Mexico was opposed he called the Mexican ambassador to the oval office and tried to sell this scheme to him. The mexican ambassador told Kennedy something like I am sorry sir but I cannot tell my country that Cuba is a threat to them or 40 million Mexicans will die laughing. Did anyone in the US die laughing about Nicaragua when Raygun said they were two days march from Texas? I think you should be looking at the beam in OUR eyes before you make such statements about the mote in our nieghbors.

[Darranar]

84. "The Muslims are also under the spell of religion."

So every Muslim is equivalent to, say, a Pat Robertson follower?

[LynnTheDem]

33. I'll second your hmmm

It sure does, doesn't it.

[jdots]

3. wierd. n/t

[Ruffhowse]

5. The same could be said for fundamentalist Christians in this country. Why

should Muslim countries be forced to change when we don't even recognize and address the same problem here at home?

[Bzzzz]

7. My Sentiments...

exactly!

[amber dog democrat]

8. What merits ?

I can't name anything the Chimp administration has done in the past 4 years that justitifies the term merit.
And beyond that the US needs to reconsider its own obsession with right wing Christianity first. There used to be a policy of a separation of church and state - that is fast erroding. One theocracy condemning another makes no sense.

[liberal N proud]

14. That was my thought.

I opened this thread to see what merits he had. And as expected, there were none.

[driver8]

82. My first thought, also -- what merits?

Can anyone name anything positive that this administration has done? I asked this on a so-called bi-partisan forum and I was given the standard, "Bush is protecting our country and our freedom from Iraq" and "Bush has cut taxes so people have more money in their pocket."

Bullshit...Dubya has never done anything that doesn't help him or his cronies in some way. I hear that he may ask for another 100 Billion dollars for Iraq...WTF??? Our country is falling down around us due to lack of funding and we are pissing money down the drain for Iraq.

I'm sorry if I am ranting but the original post got me a little pissed off. Fuck the Shrub, Fuck his administration, and Fuck the fundies!

How does one get "re-elected" when they haven't done one singlel thing right??

[OneBlueSky]

15. "The almost total hold religion has on the imagination of Muslims" . . .

I think you've been paying too much attention to the BushCo press . . . there are all kinds of Muslims, just as there are all kinds of Christians, Buddhists, Shintos, Hindus, Confucians, Jews, Wiccans, and every other religious persuasion . . . in any belief system, those who allow their beliefs "almost total hold on the imagination" can be either devout believers or radical fundamentalists . . . whatever the case, in today's world those with that level of commitment are generally a minority . . . most Muslims (and all the others) are just like you and me . . . religion plays an important part in their lives, but doesn't necessarily hold total sway on their imaginations as you hypothesize . . .

this kind of thinking is called stereotyping . . . and while it's often encouraged by the ruling elite (they DO need their enemies, don'tcha know), it's almost always dead wrong . . . and very, very destructive to learning that we all share a common humanity . . . which is far, far more significant than any differences attributable to religion, ethnicity, gender, skin color, or sexual orientation . . .

most of the problems of Muslim societies are the result of bad American foreign policies over the past decades . . . arming nations, encouraging insurrections, and generally creating chaos are not actions that contribute to rational societies or a peaceful world . . . in Iraq, for example, the problems stem largely from over a decade of American embargos, no-fly zones, and ultimately an invasion, obliteration, and occupation of the country than from anything inherent in Islam . . .

Islamic nations have had civilized societies for thousands of years . . . that they don't necessarily employ the American model doesn't mean they're any less civilized . . . insisting that our way is the only way has done more to cause disruptive international relationships than anything these countries could ever dream of . . . your hypothesis is similar to Bush saying that they hate us for our freedoms . . . not only is it not true, it's ridiculous and incredibly harmful to peaceful international relations . . .

[Karenina]

51. I am quite shocked to read the OP

unpleasantly surprised and incredibly disappointed by the racist, religiously bigoted language. :wow: Thank you, OBS for your post.

[sportndandy]

16. rascism whoa boy

Maybe bush can get the buddhist, hindu, jewish and atheist peoples to realize that the christian US is really gods chosen country and if everyone would just become christian republicans than we can all recieve gods kingdom on earth.

[No Mandate Here.]

18. Danziger gets it

[Crunchy Frog]

21. Then if we can only get the same thing

to happen in this country, we'd really be getting somewhere.

With the Talibanization of our own society going on, I'm not sure that we've got much of a leg to stand on in making such demands of other societies.

[bowens43]

24. Merits? You're kidding right?

We have NO RIGHT to force our will on other people. Your statement reeks of bigotry.

[KlatooBNikto]

26. Merits is used as a word that includes demerits also.To state that

in societies like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, religion casts a longer shadow over one's life than in the West is not bigotry.It is a statement of a fact well documented.( See, for example,V.S. Naipaul, in Among the Believers-- An Islamic Journey or Bernard Lewis, the Problem of Islam)

[unpossibles]

25. ok

besides the fact that you are making gross over-simplifications and illogical conclusions about why Muslims are not as good as "we" are (and keep in mind there are many Muslims all over the world including here), you also over-emphasize the "good" aspects of global industrialization.

Yes, I know there are many, many benefits of industrialization, from jobs, to lifestyle, etc. And I understand your angle that things like scientific thinking go along with industrialization, but to claim industrialization is the only way to an enlightened state, the only way to rise above the "total hold on imagination" seems a bit off to me.

How much of the world's resources does the US currently (ab)use? How long could the planet sustain us if everyone adopted the inherent greed of our "more logical" industrial ways?

I do not know what the answer to this is. I promise I am not a Luddite, nor do I think that other nations do not deserve to advance, but until we learn to curb our own industrial problem and over-consumption, we are no role model for anyone.

[KlatooBNikto]

28. I never said that Muslims are not as "good" or "inferior" to us. All I am

saying is that the demands of our societies are such that they place a premium on logical, scientific thinking. The people we associate with religious fundamentalism by and large are not what I would call the professional classes. I am hoping that as Islamic societies advance into this state as India and China have done, they too will become more ruled by reason than passion. That is far from the idea that we are superior to any one. We are not, by any measure.

[seabeyond]

27. the problem, it was only a smal fraction of muslim extremist

that had issue. that are/were fundamentalist wanting to attack christianity. the majority of muslims were disgusted with their own people. they were going to be the ones to take care of this faction, especially after 9/11. we had their support. they embraced us and rejected the people of their religion and their behavior

now

the moderates are as angry. the group that want to see america fail has grown, ten, a thousand fold. so no this did not help the christian and muslim to embrace one another, it caused a larger rift, a longer period for healing and embracing. a lot more work in hte future

[Brewman_Jax]

29. Be more like us?

53M voted for a known liar and deserter and against their own best interests because he's a good "Christian" man and will stop the "homosexual" agenda and gay marriage and affirmative action and liberals. He'll restore "moral values" to our society.

Maybe we should restore civilization here first before complaining about the rest of the world.

[KlatooBNikto]

30. As even Kerry has admitted it was the war issue that swayede most voters.

All others were side shows with limited appeal triggered to energize the base.

[lostnfound]

31. Muslims are perfectly capable of creating working democracy, if only CIA

would stay out. They had one in Iran with Mossadegh, who was repsected in the west until he decided to nationalize the oil. Enter Kermit Roosevelt, working for the CIA.

[Debs]

61. Absolutly correct

I bring that up so much I got tired of being repetitive. Great insight

[LynnTheDem]

32. HUH???????

:wow:

[leesa]

34. Umm...Iraq was secular. What are you talking about?

They have developed great civilized societies until we bomb them. You are making the sad, but ignorant mistake most Americans make, that the ME is not civilized.

[KlatooBNikto]

43. I never even implied that Muslims are uncivilized. I stated that

because of various cultural and economic factors, paasion rules their behavior more than reason.That is fertile ground for fundamentalist religious sects. This can be eliminated as their economies begin to demand people schooled in science, logic and reason.That is all.

[Karenina]

56. Es tut mir Leid, Klatoo

May I ask how many Muslims are in your immediate circle of friends, acquaintances or neighbors? How do you know that passion rules "their" behaviour any more that it does anyone else's? And that "they" are impervious to "reason?" WHEN was your most recent discussion with a Muslim about interpretations of the Koran? Your OP has REALLY bummed me out. :-(

[KlatooBNikto]

70. I did not mean to say that there are no Muslims that do not have a

rational outlook on life and the world around them. What I do say is that, for many cultural, socioeconomic and political reasons many Muslim nations find it convenient to whip up passions on issues that are always put in the context of danger to Islam. Even when a Western woman walks down the streets of Riyadh in her normal clothes, the Imams come thundering out of their mosques that the Western world is corrupting them. That is the same attitude that rejects Western Science because the Koran is infinitely wiser.That has damaged the Muslim world for over a century and we liberals ( what V.S. Naipaul has called Return Ticket Liberals) do a disservice to the ordinary people in Islamic countries in perpetuating the myth that Islamic societies are progressive if left alone.I take the viewpoint that without the intrusion of Western thought, Islamic societies will remain rooted in orthodoxy, misogyny and undemocratic practices.Of course, we do not have to do this by invading any country. Simply by being ourselves and persuading the educated people of these countries to extend the prosperity that oil wealth can bring to all strata of their societies we can accomplish the result that can benefit the masses of these societies more. That will be too enlightened for the Republicans to understand. I find it surprising that my fellow DUers are also resistant to the kind of ideas I have put forth.

[Bridget Burke]

35. Bush has emphasized that all nations must fight neocolonialism

If they want to be free. Bush & his buddies want oil & power & will stop at nothing. And they're being helped by the worst of the far-right "Christian" nuts--Dominionists & Christian Reconstructinists, not your garden variety Fundamentalist/Evangelicals.

Your ignorance is showing.

[LynnTheDem]

36. And all Indians (India) are "same shit".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2896654#2896796

[ChairOne]

40. Thank you for keeping track of this lunacy Lynn.... /eom

[fujiyama]

37. The question is though

why should this event likely do that?

Instead I've heard Christian fundies in the US and Australia claim it was God's retribution, and I heard a very similar statement from a Muslim preacher.

I agree that dogma has aquired to high a place in the Muslim world, but I see no reason for that to likely change in the near future.

And as long as this nation is ruled by religious fundies of a different stripe, I see almost a self prophecizing "clash of civilizations".

Reason and logic must take the place of religious dogma - well said, but I see little reason to believe it will take place anytime soon.

[HamdenRice]

38. Klatoo - you prejudice blinds you to the fact that of our age of unreason

I get your basic idea -- and perhaps I disagree with you less than others disagree with you. It is certainly true that the Saudi regime, the Taliban, the jihadists and other factions in the Islamic world reject empirical knowledge and reason.

What you are failing to see is that unfortunately, we live in an era in which reason and science are retreating in many societies, with the notable exceptions of Europe and Asia.

Perhaps you are a Christian and cannot see the degeneration of American Christian culture, in which for centuries reason and science dominated religion among the elites that run the country.

Right now we live in an unfortuate era in which the predominant local power in the middle east -- Israel -- is run by people who sincerly believe that god gave them a contract 4000 years ago to own the entire region, regardless of who currently possesses and resides on any particular territory.

And in which the quaint folk culture of appalachian fundamentalist Christian snake handlers and faith healers has somehow captured the minds of the majority of people in the south and west and even the presidency -- and international, domestic, health and science policy are all made on the basis of this folk religion.

Even the corporate and economic elites practice a kind of non-reasoning faith based economics -- free-market neo-liberalism -- despite the fact that almost all empirical evidence suggests it is a failure.

India is fighting back a surge of Hindu fundamentalism that threatens the world's largest democracy.

Yeah, it would be nice if the centers of Islam -- Saudi Arabia and Iran -- achieved some balance between reason and faith based authority, but exactly the same could be said of the elites of America, the corporate financial world and Israel.

<edited>

[bleedingheart]

41. Clearly you haven't met many of the irrational religious people in the US

[ArkDem]

42. You may say I'm a dreamer

Well, I'm not the only one

[GOPBasher]

44. "Reason and logic must take the place of religious dogmas.": I agree.

This should also happen here in our own country, which is being taken over by Right-Wing Christian Fundamentalists bent on destroying freedom of religion and separation of church and state.

But I agree, the Muslim theocracies need to "deal with relationships rationally," as you put it.

[KlatooBNikto]

45. At this stage of historic development, those who reject science, reason

and logic in Western Societies are largely failures who find it harder and harder to cope with the demands of our technogically advanced society. It is also undeniable that they are a vocal minority in our society.In Islamic societies, because of the rejection of anything Western as alien to Islamic culture, it has not been possible for many societies to adapt to an environment of technology, reason and logic, the socalled Newtonian/Cartesian Model.
When that becomes imperative, as it must when the demands of technology finally wake them up, they too will become embedded in reason. All I am saying is that at present there is no driving force in those societies to even adopt the views of the universe based on the Newtonian/Cartesian models.

[GOPBasher]

46. I agree with everything you're saying, but one thing to point out.

You say those people in our society are a "vocal minority." That's true, but it's a huge minority. They were responsible for Bush's "win," if he did indeed win. Anyway, without them, Kerry would've won by 25%.

[CoffeeAnnan]

48. I disagree. Kerry has admitted that it was the issue of war that did

him in.I doubt if the religious fundamentalists had as much of a hand in Bush's victory as they would like to claim.

[GOPBasher]

55. I hope you're right, but from what I've seen, I don't think so.

I hope you're right about that. But here's what I've seen. Polls indicate that almost half of the American public claims to be "evangelical" or "born-again." Please understand, this is NOT to chastise all people who call themselves those terms. But it's true that a vast majority of evangelicals are socially conservative Republicans. If they comprise almost half of the electorate, and the Republicans get 80% of them, well, then do the math. Here are some links to back up my statements.

http://pollingreport.com/religion2.htm

[KlatooBNikto]

73. I want to answer all the posts that have argued against my views here.

I want to say clearly I am not advocating violence against any Islamic country for any reason whatsoever. I am dead set against the War on Iraq.Those who know my views from other posts will realize that my posts take views that favor the weak, the powerless and those who are unfortunate enough to be born with the "wrong" color, or poor or into a "wrong "religion.But I depart from the strong advocacy of many here that do not open doors for the unfortunate among us by advising them to reject the same thought processes that have propelled our own societies into a more general prosperity.Lord knows we are not perfect but overall our condition is far better than the people of coastal Thailand, India, Phillipines, Indonesia and other countries.

I was trying to point out that Islam as a religion is an impediment to progress in these societies and our task is to not convert them as our fundies want to do, but to point out that there can be a way to liberalize their own orthodox views so people, especially the lower strata, can be empowered by their own religion. This does not take any resort to war, violence etc.If we constantly harp on the evils our own government has done or is doing we play into the hands of
the extremists on both sides and the big losers are going to be the common people of these countries.They have known enough death and destruction and wars. If we can turn them toward the solutions adopted by India and China, which in a matter of fifty years have built an enormously efficient higher education system that is achieving enviable results, we would have done these people a lasting service.

The vast oil wealth of these countries can be put toward creating the kind of investments in the people that will benefit them provided someone persuades them to shed religious blinders. The same can also be said about our own fundies and the problem is identical.

[Karenina]

60. IRAN was progressing quite nicely

before being labelled a part of the "AXIS OF EVIL!!!"

"All I am saying is that at present there is no driving force in those societies to even adopt the views of the universe based on the Newtonian/Cartesian models."

Du bist plein de MERDE. I'm QUITE SHOCKED. :wow:

[KlatooBNikto]

71. I disagree. Iran's progress as you like to call it somehow eluded

the women.

[Karenina]

74. You are misinformed.

And you post reeks of assumptions of superiority and "white man's burden." Really, it does. :-(

[KlatooBNikto]

78. Wrong again. Please read my response to all the critical posts in this

thread.

On Edit: That would be my post # 73.

[donsu]

47. "merits"? what merits? please inform

how do you react rationally when the US invades your country?

how can you be rational when you witness US torture?

turn your notions around and point them at the US, then we can have a discussion.

[CoffeeAnnan]

49. The Op has already explained that he used merits to include the demerits.

It will become clear when you read his post's context.

Your questions are well taken. I am not questioning their validity.

The OP was discussing the entire Muslim world, not just Iraq.

[Bridget Burke]

52. There is no monolithic Muslim world.

And the rulers of the USA are too much beholden to our own religious fanatics.

Since when is killing 100,000 Iraqis a "demerit"?

[dpibel]

53. Dispassionate reason

This would be the reason and logic that compelled war as a response to 911?

Or would it be the cold logic that led the majority of Americans to support the invasion of Iraq? Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point out to me how the morass in Iraq is founded on reason and logic.

If you don't think Americans are subject to inflamed passions, I think you haven't been paying much attention.

But then, I suspect you're threatened by those passionate Latino lovers we all know so much about.

[Jesus H. Christ]

54. What the flying fuck is this?

Forgetting the blatant islamophobia, what the fuck is this about "civilized society" and "dealing with relationships rationally?"

What part of any of that applies to any relations we've had with Islamic nations in the last three years?

[qwertyMike]

64. Echo that post Jesus H Christ

This person talks about Science, and the Professional Classes (Drones).

He work for IBM or sump'n?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

85. Dude has a thousand posts and is gonna let it all hang out, heh

[Selwynn]

57. This is nothing but bigotry at its worst.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

66. Bigotry is too nice of a word.

[burythehatchet]

76. this poster has really gone to the edge

as an Indian, I read his posts and I was shocked that a person who knows how to turn on a computer and type could be that _________ (fill in your own adjective)

[youngred]

59. It's not the end of religion

it's the evolution of Islam out of its dark ages. And nothing Bush is doing is going to do that, he's only pushing them further into fanatacism

[MisterP]

65. ooo, a fundamentalist scientism crusade the back up the fundie Xtians'

[ashmanonar]

67. hell

iran, now that it has thrown off US influence utterly, is better off than it has been for 20/30 years...the old guard of geriatric theocrats has been replaced by a newer group of younger people, who made peace overtures to washington in order to lift the sanction, so they could grow economically...it's bush's fault that iran isn't a member of "civilized society"...he's the one who rejected them and is making more noise at them...(a big mistake, considering that iran has a much better army than iraq could field in this war...it'd be a bloodbath, trying to invade iran)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

69. bombing islamic nations will lead them to trust us more?

i am so confused.

[Radical Activist]

72. Remember the level of hate and anger after 911

It allowed Bush to get elected and start a war based on lies. 3,000 people were killed that day. We have killed over 100,000.

What kind of evil do you think will be done in the name of anger, hate, revenge and justice as a result of what we have done? We will reap what we have sown.

[burythehatchet]

75. dude, are you like 8 years old?

on edit...why do you waste your time on a liberal board?

[KlatooBNikto]

77. It is fine for people like you and me to sit around and argue endlessly

about the rights and wrongs of Muslims, Christians and the like while people like the Iraqis and Palestinians have to pay the price in blood and suffering. As I have argued in another post in this thread, that there is a way out for these people and that is to make Islam itself more liberal than what it is today. I say this because wherever the Arab/Muslim people have gone away from the orthodoxy of their homelands, they have excelled in the arts, sciences and business. My contention is that if these conditions are reproduced in their own backyards, which would involve liberalization of Islamic beliefs, it would go a long way toward helping the people we all profess to be concerned about.

[KlatooBNikto]

79. Let me also add one more thought. We in the west are the beneficiaries

of centuries old traditions of reason and logic taking precedence over faith and magic, imperfect though our status may be. That tradition has given rise to the greatest innovations the human mind has ever generated.Along with these acheivements we have loosened the bonds of religion, though not completely.

I believe that if we can make Muslims our allies in transferring this tradition and let them decide how they want to liberalize the hold of their own religion we would have given the tools with which they can
produce the equivalent of their own Reformation.That is my hope.

[stanwyck]

81. your arrogance is

truly amazing. Abortion clinics have been bombed in our country due to religion. Doctors have been murdered. Women and children have been physically abused by the "head of the household" in keeping with religious beliefs. Mormons have married off their preteen daughters. Women have been denied control over their own bodies due to religious beliefs. Homosexuals have been denied civil rights, beaten, and murdered. In America. And the religious picket with God Hates Fags.
The Muslims who attacked us are not indicative of all Muslims. Jerry Falwell and Jim Jones are not indicative of all Christians.
Terrorists attacked us.
Your blithe attack on a religion is simplistic and misguided.
Consider this: people in the Mideast hate those who rape their natural resources for their own profit, instill values contrary to their own beliefs and culture, carpet bomb their cities, murder their children, leave behind poisonous uranium to kill and maim future generations through birth defects, and attempt to install puppet governments which will serve the Western overseers.
You want to do a makeover on a religion. Start with your own. There's plenty of work to be done.
Heal yourself first.

[Karenina]

86. Your posts indicate

your tools.

[Karenina]

80. Ahhhh... I see now

"that there is a way out for :eyes:*these people*:eyes: and that is to make Islam itself more liberal than what it is today."

(And whom shall YOU appoint to the task)?

"this I say this because wherever the Arab/Muslim people have gone away from the orthodoxy of their homelands, they have excelled in the arts, sciences and business."

That depends on who ya know and what you recognize as excelling. Point out to me ONE world renowned and respected artist, scientist or businessman who escaped the nether regions of the Ami-Fundi-Homeland.
We could start there. :evilgrin:

"My contention is that if these conditions are reproduced in their own backyards,

(What do you mean by "conditions?"BY WHOM AND HOW?)

"which would involve liberalization of Islamic beliefs, (IT IS QUITE OBVIOUS YOUR GRIP ON ISLAMIC BELIEFS IS VERY LOOSE - maybe you wanna turn your attention to the millions Pat, Jerry and those other guys who wear dead cats on their head while prophesying)

"it would go a long way toward helping the people we all profess to be concerned about."

It is NOT up to you or your gub'mint to deliniate the evolution of another nation, to the sorry neglect of your own. If you're that concerned, I suggest you get down off your throne and SERIOUSLY widen your contact base. I've read many great posts from you Klatkoo, but this time you've SERIOUSLY ANNOYED ME. :spank:

Did you ever consider the possibility that someone might not need YOUR definition of "help?" Has any one of your kids ever told you to SHUT UP AND LISTEN?

[CoffeeAnnan]

88. I am sorry I have annoyed you, Karenina. That was not my intent

believe me. I have also read many fine posts by you and hold you in the highest regard.

As a reader of my posts, you must know better than anyone that I do not wish to slight anyone racially.I do not want to also attack one religion or another irrationally.What I do want to point out though is that Islam which had a great lead in intellectual activity up to the Middle Ages lost out because it saw the West as a threat and closed its own doors to new ideas and new opportunities to grow. That fear of Western intrusion into the "purity" of Islam still holds true today. You can go to Saudi Arabia,Iran or Pakistan and hear the same cry about the "pollution" that Western ideas bring. I have even heard the word "infection" to describe the prevalence of Western habits(music, clothing, sexual mores) among the young.I believe that if Islamic nations openly embrace Western thoughts and ideas as India and China have done, they will easily surpass these two nations because they start with enormous advantages. That can also give them the economic clout with which they can del with the West from a position of strength, not weakness. That has been the experience of Japan.

In my mind, we as liberals must propose solutions to the weak that do not cause them any more suffering than they already endure.That goes for Iraqis, Palestinians and other islamic nations that are in the gunsights of the U.S.

I hope you understand my motivations better and understand why I posted my OP. Thank you for being frank.

[Darranar]

83. War does not lead to moderation. It leads to fundamentalism. n/t

[The_Casual_Observer]

87. and Yes KlatooBNikto, there really is a Santa Claus!