Would Jesus support the use of guns?

[billbuckhead]

How can the RepuKKKes hide behind the Jesus message of non violence and a promiscuous interpretation of the 2nd amendment at the same time?

Maybe, because we let them? Part of the reason religion is used so effectively against liberalism is because we don't point to the powerful contradictions and outright hypocrisy.

[On the Road]

1. After the Last Supper, Jesus Said to His Disciples:

“But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." (Luke 22:36)

So it's difficult to make the argument that Jesus believed weapons for personal defense were unethical.

[billbuckhead]

8. Here's the whole quote

He said to them, “When I sent you out barefoot without purse or pack, were you ever short of anything?” “No,” they answered. “It is different now,” he said; “whoever has a purse had better take it with him, and his pack too; and if he has no sword, let him sell his cloak to buy one. For Scripture says, ‘And he was counted among the outlaws,’”…“Look, Lord,” they said, “we have two swords here.” “Enough, enough!” he replied.


Luke 22:47-51


…When his followers saw what was coming, they said, “Lord, shall we use our swords?” And one of them struck at the High Priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. But Jesus answered, “Let them have their way.” Then he touched the man’s ear and healed him.
 

[On the Road]

11. That is Correct

The point is that Jesus advised his followers to carry weapons for personal defense at the point he was handed over to the Romans. If he believed weapons for self-defense were unethical, he would not have done that.

Jesus told Peter not to intervene in his arrest. He did not say it was unethical ever for Peter ever to use the sword.

[billbuckhead]

13. I don't get that from this quote, can you elaborate him telling

his followers to use swords? When did he ever say to use a sword for personal defense? I never heard quotes of "love thy neighbor but kill him if he attacks you but he did say, "You have learned that they were told, “Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.” But what I tell you is this: Do not set yourself against the man who wrongs you. If someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn and offer him your left. If a man wants to sue you for your shirt, let him have your coat as well. If a man in authority makes you go one mile, go with him two. Give when you are asked to give; and do not turn your back on a man who wants to borrow."

Doesn't seem to square with "use a sword to defend yourself"?

[bryant69]

16. One answer is that he was sending the apostles out as individuals

In the later verses they were to act as leaders of the church. The question of whether one should protect oneself vs. whether one should protect others may explain the apparent conflict.

Bryant

[On the Road]

18. Jesus Never Addressed the Issue of Being Attacked by Criminals

although he did instruct his followers not to resist government oppression or mistreat by other members of the community.

If you believe Jesus condoned using weapons in self-defense, it is not difficult to understand why he did not allow Peter to intervene in his arrest. It was imperative that he get arrested in order to make his sacrifice.

On the other hand, if you believe Jesus thought it was unethical to use weapons in self-defense, how would you explain his advice to his followers to go out and buy a sword?

[Up2Late]

20. This is getting way to deep for this site

You folks should go to this site linked below, they need some intellectuals there to raise the level of the discourse.:hippie:
<http://www.bibleforums.org/forum/search.php?searchid=221261>

[bunkerbuster1]

25. Luke is the ONLY account that includes this bit, of course.

and it always seemed out of character.

I just figured that when they were settling up the various accounts of this long-dead dude's life and ministry, the early Christians had to deal with the equivalent of gun-nuts at the time, and so they allowed this verse in one of the four Gospels. Who knows how it really went down at the time.

[NuttyFluffers]

21. sounds like heavily layered metaphors to me.

often he'd explain something and his disciples would horribly misconstrue it to something concretely grounded in the real world. afterwards he'd have to explain things in private or remind them that he's making allusive comments about a metaphysical world.

if taking this passage metaphorically it makes a lot more sense, especially the dismissive "Enough, Enough!" after his disciples say "we have two swords here." sounds like he was exasperated with their lack of following of his train of thought.

metaphorically it seems like he's describing the needs of the proselitizer on their mission of evangelism. since he's leaving, they are going to have to take up the slack, so they need to bring with them certain things that they hadn't had to worry about before. the purse = the spiritual currency of friendship, charm, and connections, so as to survive this journey; the pack = the generic needs to survive long journeys, to succoring one's soul in the lonelier times; and to discard the cloak = defensiveness, self-delusion, isolationism -- so as to buy the sword = judgment, inspiration to forge ahead, the trials to clear aside the fogs that blind men. it'd all make more sense especially to the lead up into pentacost -- where once they were lost, isolated, dejected, and confused, then suddenly they 'sold their cloak for swords' and exit unto town with the holy spirit, flaming tongues (akin to a flaming sword) above their heads to prostelitize, evangelize, to clear away the fog that deludes their fellow man, to cut through the cloaks of delusion and open them to the truth and connection with other human beings.

it makes far more sense this way to me. the other interpretation, that even the apostles had, just seems wrong and doesn't gel with all the other times where jesus' particular communication style was highly allegorical filled with profound meaning. :)

[bryant69]

2. Hard argument to make

35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
Luke 22:35-38.

I think what many might argue was that Christ wasn't opposed to the existance or possession of weapons, but the misuse of them.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Up2Late]

3. Thou shalt not covet

thy neighbor's guns :evilgrin:

[Radical Activist]

4. When Peter (isn't that who it was?) attacked a Roman soldier

that was about to arrest Jesus, Jesus told him to stop and healed the soldier's ear that had been cut.

The only time Jesus used a weapon was a whip to kick the money changers out of the temple. That's something I like to point out to corporate Republicans.

[billbuckhead]

5. YES voters, any scripture to back up your choice?

Here's some scripture quatations to support my assertation that weapons are are literally un-Christian



Sermon on the Mount


Matthew 5:43-48


You have learned that they were told, “Love your neighbor, hate your enemy.” But what I tell you is this: Love your enemies and pray for your persecutors; only so can you be children of your heavenly Father, who makes his sun shine on good and bad alike, and sends the rain on the honest and the dishonest. If you love only those who love you, what reward can you expect? Surely the tax-gatherers do as much as that. And if you greet only your brothers, what is there extraordinary about that? Even the heathen do as much. There must be no limit to your goodness, as your heavenly Father’s goodness knows no bounds.


Matthew 5:38-42


You have learned that they were told, “Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.” But what I tell you is this: Do not set yourself against the man who wrongs you. If someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn and offer him your left. If a man wants to sue you for your shirt, let him have your coat as well. If a man in authority makes you go one mile, go with him two. Give when you are asked to give; and do not turn your back on a man who wants to borrow.


Luke 6:27-36


Love your enemies; do good to those who hate you; bless those who curse you; pray for those who treat you spitefully. When a man hits you on the cheek, offer him the other cheek too; when a man takes your coat, let him have your shirt as well. Give to everyone who asks you; when a man takes what is yours, do not demand it back. Treat others as you would like them to treat you. If you love only those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. Again, if you do good only to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do as much. And if you lend only where you expect to be repaid, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to each other to be repaid in full. But you must love your enemies and do good; and lend without expecting any return; and you will have a rich reward: you will be sons of the Most High, because he himself is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be compassionate as your Father is compassionate.


Jesus’ mission & instructions to apostles


Luke 12:49-53


I have come to set fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until the ordeal is over! Do you suppose I came to establish peace on earth? No indeed, I have come to bring division. For from now on, five members of a family will be divided, three against two and two against three; father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother…


Matthew 10:21-22, 34-39


Brother will betray brother to death, and the father his child; children will turn against their parents and send them to their death. All will hate you for your allegiance to me; but the man who holds out to the end will be saved….You must not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a son’s wife against her mother-in-law; and a man will find his enemies under his own roof. No man is worthy of me who cares more for father or mother than for me; no man is worthy of me who cares for son or daughter; no man is worthy of me who does not take up his cross and waLuke in my footsteps. By gaining his life a man will lose it; by losing his life for my sake, he will gain it.


The cleansing of the temple


Mark 11:15-19


So they came to Jerusalem, and he went into the temple and began driving out those who bought and sold in the temple. He upset the tables of the money-changers and the seats of the dealers in pigeons; and he would not allow anyone to use the temple court as a thoroughfare for carrying goods. Then he began to teach them, and said, “Does not Scripture say, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a robbers’ cave.” The chief priests and the doctors of the law heard of this and sought some means of making away with him; for they were afraid of him, because the whole crowd was spell-bound by his teaching. And when evening came he went out of the city.


The arrest


Matthew 26:47-54


While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, appeared; with him was a great crowd armed with swords and cudgels, sent by the chief priests and the elders of the nation….They then came forward, seized Jesus, and held him fast. At that moment one of those with Jesus reached for his sword and drew it, and he struck at the High Priest’s servant and cut off his ear. But Jesus said to him, “Put up your sword. All who take the sword die by the sword. Do you suppose that I cannot appeal to my Father, who would at once send to my aid more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the scriptures be fulfilled, which say that this must be?”





Luke 22:35-38


He said to them, “When I sent you out barefoot without purse or pack, were you ever short of anything?” “No,” they answered. “It is different now,” he said; “whoever has a purse had better take it with him, and his pack too; and if he has no sword, let him sell his cloak to buy one. For Scripture says, ‘And he was counted among the outlaws,’”…“Look, Lord,” they said, “we have two swords here.” “Enough, enough!” he replied.


Luke 22:47-51


…When his followers saw what was coming, they said, “Lord, shall we use our swords?” And one of them struck at the High Priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. But Jesus answered, “Let them have their way.” Then he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

[blondeatlast]

27. Matthew seems to be left out of a great many Bibles

Probably all the ones published by Thomas J. Nelson, those loving Christians who bring you Michael Wiener (aka Savage)'s books.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. Wasn't he the guy that said something about turning the other cheek?

Seven times seven times?

Hard to believe that the gun fondlers would use Jesus to promote their trigger fingers.

[m0nkeyneck]

7. what jesus would or would not support is irrelevant imo

[billbuckhead]

9. Supposedly we lost the election because of Christian values

I just want to investigate what those values are. Martin Luther King succeeded to a point with a non-violent, pro Christ message. Perhaps there is something there that we can do succeed against the corporate facists and their NRA brownshirts.

[el_gato]

10. of course MLK wound up full of bullets, so much for "non-violence"

[billbuckhead]

12. Sounds like MLK died a Christian death and changed the world

It seems like the progun people are extremely selfcentered and can't see the big picture. Maybe that is part of why the USA has the highest homicide rate of advanced nations, one of the highest rates of rape, one of the highest incarceration rates and seems to have no problems invading other nations on flimsy reason.

It sure seems to me that the people who used guns against MLK failed.

[m0nkeyneck]

26. owning a gun is a right..

for law abiding citizens; just the way it is

[blondeatlast]

28. Why did you reply to a thread that you deem "irrelevant?"

The question concerned Jesus and guns, but you jumped in anyway.

:wtf:

No beer for you.

[m0nkeyneck]

29. WWJD?

for a klondike bar


;-)

[blondeatlast]

32. I repeat...

:wtf:

[billbuckhead]

37. Actually the Supreme Court has said owning a gun isn't a right

but then they say voting isn't a right either. check it out.

Gun Control, the NRA and the Second Amendment

by Jeff Cohen

The Amendment is only 27 words: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." While the NRA emphasizes only the last 14 words, the U.S. Supreme Court and appeals courts have focused on "well-regulated militia" and "security of a free State" to rule that Second Amendment rights are reserved to states and their militias – nowadays, the National Guards.

The truth is -- and one would hardly know it from the mass media -- that since the Supreme Court's unanimous Miller decision in 1939, all federal appeals courts, whether dominated by liberals or conservatives, have agreed that the Second Amendment does not confer gun rights on individuals. The NRA view, opposed even by such right-wing judges as Robert Bork, has been consistently rejected.

Unlike the average media consumer, Douglas Hickman knows this truth. In 1991, he invoked the Second Amendment in suing the City of Los Angeles after failing to get a permit for a concealed weapon. In keeping with dozens of cases since 1939, the Circuit Court of Appeals ruled unanimously: "We follow our sister circuits in holding that the Second Amendment is a right held by the states and does not protect the possession of a weapon by a private citizen."

--------------snip------------------

<http://www.fair.org/articles/gun-control.html>

[Telly Savalas]

22. So if MLK was packin'...

he would have been immune to assasination?

[Swamp Rat]

14. Who would Jesus shoot?

[billbuckhead]

15. Rightwingers want to put Christ back in Christmas, maybe they should

think about putting Christ back in Christianity. The who would Jesus bomb or shoot thing is just one facet of this disconnect. Liberals think that religion is personel and so don't pursue these contradictions. maybe the time has come to put their religious beliefs up against what jesus really stood for.

[Swamp Rat]

17. Cognitive dissonance knows no party affiliation.

[Ron Green]

19. What, is this poll being freeped?

[billbuckhead]

24. i've always though that DU is heavily freeped by NRAstroturf

Even though even Gallup polls show a large majority of Americans are for some degree of gun regulation and for Dems it's even more so, one always gets a bunch of posters to defend UNLIMITED gun rights on this board. I've never personally met a Dem for unlimited access to assault rifles or even seen one on TV but there are a bunch of them on DU.

I honestly believe that one of our biggest problems with Red state voters is that we allow RepuKKKES to go unchallenged when they put God and guns together or when they put Jesus and war together, etc.

[blondeatlast]

31. Also note the inevitable invasion of beings who frequent the

bottom levels of roadway infrastructure right about the time DU reaches a membership "milestone..."

[hollowdweller]

35. I agree with you on the improper mixing of God and Guns, but I disagree

with you on the gun control aspect. I think that MOST people would support keeping guns away from crazy people and criminals, but they are just not confident that once we start enacting more stuff that it won't end up being a total ban.

[Selwynn]

23. I don't know how you can reconcile the sermon on the mount with a "Yes"

[donheld]

30. "Would Jesus support the use of guns?" I'm sure he would

but only with strict guidelines. I don't think he'd be too infavor of pleasure hunting. I believe he'd be ok with self-defense. But he would not be in favor of vigilanty justice. I really don't think he's swear by the "eye for an eye" shit that was in the old testament.

[hollowdweller]

33. I voted NO. Jesus was a total pacifist. However for hunting yes

I think anyone who reads the bible can deduce he was a total pacifist. Even if it meant you got killed by somebody bad. On the other hand for hunting yes.

[City of Mills]

34. Guns? Yes. Marijuana? No.

Pot is far too dangerous for society!

/threadjack

[hollowdweller]

36. Yeah, herb. There's another personal freedom issue BOTH parties are wrong

on.