Kennedy Assasination - Whodunit?

[UdoKier]

Kennedy Assasination - Whodunit?

[On the Road]

1. What, Nobody Voted for the Mafia?

[x_y_no]

2. How can you vote for something not offered as a choice?

I voted "other" because I think the Mafia were probably the main organizing force.

[denverbill]

4. I'm votin for the anti-Castro Cubans in Miami.

[Minstrel Boy]

5. The Mafia, the Cubans, and the CIA.

They'd be conspiring together for years to kill Castro. The mob had been an intelligence asset since the Second World War, when Lucky Luciano was freed from prison to return to Sicily in order to reassert the Mafia as a counterbalance to the communists.

They each played a role. But it would never have happened without the intelligence community, which had the means to effect the cover-up.

[minerva50]

100. I agree

I don't know about the CIA, but I think the Cubans and the mafia were involved. My great uncle was Kennedy's White House physician at the time and was at Dallas in a car behind Kennedy's. I was just a kid and I don't think he ever spoke of his experience or his view of the events. I do think he and others involved may have been convinced they needed sweep things clean "for the good of the nation."

[Walt Starr]

23. One way the mafia took revenge was to shoot you in the head and steal your

woman.

Onassis had major mafia ties and was probably a major organized crime leader.

[Irishladdie]

3. The Driver!!

[Connie_Corleone]

6. The Butler did it.

[morgan2]

7. Ted Kennedy did it

he was drunk and jealous.

[AmerDem]

9. wtf is that all about?

Is this your form of humor?

[dr.strangelove]

96. I thought that was funny!

Once I read it I got a little laugh. Absurdity is funny to me, and I'm sure many others. Maybe its in a little poor taste to say that a man who successfully tackled a history of alcohol problems killed his older brother while drunk, but the absurdity of the statement was funny as hell.

[Starlight]

8. So I was listening to a "best of" on AAR yesterday...

It was the interview with that economic hitman guy, whatever his name is. Anyway, he said he thinks both Kennedys were assasinated because they were going to expose secrets about how the government works (ie: it's not a democracy). Interesting.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BiggJawn]

11. The M-I-C, with an assist from Poppy...

The only man alive who has NO recollection where he was or what he was doing that day....

[jwirr]

86. Bingo

[Endangered Specie]

12. Looks like people have been watching too much Hollywood.

Grow a brain.

[Minstrel Boy]

14. "Grow a brain"?

How about you grab a book. Maybe one of these:

Peter Dale Scott, Deep Politics and the Death of JFK
DiEugenio and Pease, The Assassinations
John Newman, Oswald and the CIA
Dick Russell, The Man Who Knew Too Much
Gaeton Fonzi, The Last Investigation
Charles Crenshaw, Trauma Room One
Martin Schotz, History Will Not Absolve Us
Claudia Furiati, ZR Rifle

It just takes will and courage to inform oneself.

[nomatrix]

56. Add another one to that list Minstrel Boy

The Texas Connection by Craig Zirbel.
It examines the actions of LBJ before, during and after.

A conspiracy is two or more people acting in concert to commit an unlawful act.

Though the Warren Commission identified Oswald as the lone assassin, it was unable to find any motive.

The commission sealed the important evidence from public review until 2039.

Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was one of the poorest made rifles of the century. The commission's firearm's expert refused to operate it during a practice session for fear of breaking the firing pin and being injured. The commission never explained why an intelligent ex-marine did not purchase a quality hunting rifle with a scope designed to accurately hit a target when they were available. He could have had easier, closer shots.

Why did he ask for a lawyer who specialized in conspiracy cases Attorney Abt in NY, and his repeated "I am a patsy"?

Parafin tests taken of Oswald's cheek and facial area established no gunpowder residue.

Ruby said to the press during the recess of one of his criminal hearings "this whole thing is a conspiracy. The world will never know."

88% of the witnesses who gave statements or supplied affidavits said the shots came from the grassy knoll, not the book depository.

[LOCxHippy]

84. That 'Damned Girdle': the Hidden Factor

I relive this event every year, and I am as sad & undecided about it now as I was then. I read a lot, but I could never bring myself to read all the books because I knew that nothing was going to undo this horrendous event...I was also getting bogged down with theories.

Today's L A Times has a Commentary about the fact that JFK may not have died if it wasn't for his back "girdle.The first bullet was not fatal. For some reason, I had never heard about this aspect.

Here's the article, but you must provide a user name and password to read...no other info.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-reston22nov22,0,3284111.story

November 22, 2004

That 'Damned Girdle': the Hidden Factor That Might Have Killed Kennedy
If not for an elaborate corset, he likely would have survived the Dallas shooting.

By James Reston Jr., James Reston Jr.'s forthcoming book is on the Spain of Christopher Columbus and will be published by Doubleday next year.

Two years ago, the historian Robert Dallek revealed new details about the extraordinary range of shots, stimulants and pills President Kennedy took to control his physical pain and present his youthful image to the world. Important and interesting as these details are, they should not distract us from the one medical remedy that probably killed the president: his corset.

Members of Kennedy's inner circle had often witnessed the painful ritual that Kennedy endured in his private quarters before he ventured in public, when his valet would literally winch a steel-rodded canvas back brace around the president's torso, pulling heavy straps and tightening the thongs loop by loop as if it was a bizarre scene out of "Gone With the Wind."

Once in it, the president was planted upright, trapped and almost bolted into a ramrod posture. Many would wonder how JFK could ever move in such a contraption. And yet move he did, and, besides his painkillers, his corset contributed to the youthful, high-shouldered military bearing that he presented glamorously to the world.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

17. Agreed!!!

[merh]

33. Stay out of the thread if you don't like the subject, don't come

in to ridicule. Gee, when will you grow up?

[Endangered Specie]

41. who Died and made you King?

make me.

[merh]

42. Nobody, but it just seems to me you have come to be a disruptor

in this thread - seems silly to me. :shrug:

[H2O Man]

43. No one died and made merh king.

She is merely using logic and saying if you are not interested in a subject, and have nothing of value to contribute, perhaps you would be better served by venturing to another thread. If for some reason you feel compelled to stay o this thread to write stupid things and to try to insult people, of course she will not physically remove you.

Of course, in doing so, you can't expect people are going to put much value on what you have to say. You might actually learn something from people like merh, who are able to disagree with other people's opinions, without resorting to being insulting towards the people who hold those opinions.

[Carl Brennan]

90. You must read "The Man Who Knew Too Much" by Dick Russell

I'm sure you will see things differantly.

[Blue_Tires]

13. the tough part of it is

Kennedy had SO many enemies with motive and opportunity....I'm willing to bet that J. Edgar Hoover was invovled, too

[durutti]

15. I honestly don't care, and don't know why so many people do.

There are far more important things to worry about.

[JohnyCanuck]

34. Because it was a coup d'état is why so many people care.

And it would have profound implications for the conduct of US politics. If Kennedy was assassinated and the real assassins got away unscathed as many believe (including myself), what does that say to any other US president. Presumably if Kennedy was taken out for displeasing the wrong crowd, any other president could suffer the same fate as well. In all likelihood this could have repercussions on how far any president is likely to go in rocking the boat, regardless of how severely the boat might need a good rocking.

It would be another example as to why all the guff spewed out by the US media and educational system about the US being the worlds greatest democracy is bullshit. As the US goes storming off around the world to bomb the benighted heathen into accepting "democracy," the knowledge that the string pullers behind the scenes can overthrow and depose US presidents like any Central/South American monied oligarchy deposes (with CIA help) el presidente when he steps on too many important toes does further damage to the US government's attempt to establish its own credibility.

[NikolaTeslaRocks]

76. Why Care? History Repeats itself -- Ruby getting cancer

Happens all the time and most never see it coming in many situations.

Here is another question, I remember but I could be wrong about this but did Ruby say the gov. gave him cancer to shut him up?
My memory may not be correct. This is obvously not a quote

Dont think gov. can not give someone cancer. They do it to mice all the time in labs to test theories and drugs.If they can do this to mice, why not humans.

[merh]

35. Some of us believe that it is all tied together

what happened to the Kennedy brothers and what is happening to our nation today. Why ask why - if you don't agree that's okay, but don't think you can sway anyone to join you in your apathy.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

16. None of the above...

...Oswald did it and there was no magic bullet.

[Razorback_Democrat]

18. Then He Was The Best Damned Shot There Ever Was!!!!!

Shooting between those branches of the live Oak (leaves and all) pulling off 3 shots, missing one, and doing it all in a record amount of time!

Come on

Reality says Oswald couldn't have acted alone, maybe he wasn't even a shooter.

Poppy knows

[kick-ass-bob]

19. Discovery Channel did a piece on the bullet

and showed how it could make all those wounds...

they even recreated it and the wounds.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

20. I bet you didn't know the last shot was the EASIEST...

...Did you?

Don't feed the kooks and nutters. It only makes them multiply!!

[Endangered Specie]

44. According to his score cards... he shot quite well...

The distance was 88-100 yards, and he was using a Carcano, which, despite claims to the contrary, IS an accurate rifle.

The time he had was 8.5 seconds


Id bet money that there are at least 1 or 2 gungeoners who could pull this off.

Reality says Oswald is and was the shooter.

[Comicstripper]

72. It was in NO WAY record time

The amount of time it would've taken him was completely plausible, he was an expert, certified marksman, and the distance was well within Oswald's range (he could shoot accurately as far as 200 meters away)

[lessthanjake]

21. Oswald by himself

There was no magic bullet. Didnt you guys make any attempt to actually not just disregard what that show said?

[UdoKier]

22. What show now>? the corporate media has been trying...

... to prop up the flimsy lone gunman scenario non-stop for 40 years, since they ran that first smear piece on Jim Garrison.

Who do I trust more, a lone, eccentric New Orleans DA, or the government and corporate media? With their track record, I'd definitely have to go with Garrison.

[Minstrel Boy]

24. "the show"?

I love how lonenutters who think the case for conspiracy all comes down to Oliver Stone cite TV shows as proof.

[lessthanjake]

37. The magic bullet thing isnt true

They showed how the guy was actually seated. It went in a straight line.

[Pepperbelly]

38. and ended up undeformed with only the loss of a few grains of mass?

Not in my experience with bullets.

[Endangered Specie]

45. It wasn't undeformed.

[Pepperbelly]

49. There is absolutely no way that the bullet identified by the WC

passed through Kennedy's throat, Conley's chest (including one rib), and through Conley's wrist. Even a jacketed bullet deforms far more than that when it hits bone.

BTW, how can that square with the frangible nature of the bullet that went through the President's head, the one that disintegrated into the tiniest of shards visible only on the x-rays?

[PeteGammons]

51. Yes, there is a way.

When it hit the rib, it was tumbling. It also didn't hit it square, just a glancing blow. Likewise with the wrist, it didn't hit it square, and was going much slower.

There was a special on the Discovery channel a couple of weeks ago, where they basically re-created the shot, using dummies built with "ballistic gelatin" and bones. It created all of the wounds except for the leg wound, but broke two bones going through "Connolly" instead of one, which accounted for it not penetrating the "leg".

They used the same kind of ammo that Oswald used, the same kind of gun. And the condition of the bullet was nearly identical to that of CE399.

[Pepperbelly]

54. ok ...

but remember the 2nd part of my post. If I "give" you and Discovery the "pristine" bullet, then you are encumbered to explain the very different behavior of the head wound bullet that broke into a ka-zillion pieces. I am going to pre-empt your claim that it was a difference in the bone mass between the skull (which is quite thick) and the bone mass of a rib or a wrist bone because bullet fragmentation is a continuium, not a base 2 proposition ... ie deformed vs. non-deformed.

IOW, even though the bone density in the skull is heavier than the rib or wrist, there is not some threshold of density at which the bullet fragments completely and below which it fragments not at all.

[PeteGammons]

55. It wasn't "pristine"

It was badly flattened on one side, and the lead was leaking out of the jacket.

Also, it hit nothing hard as it passed through Kennedy. It was all soft tissue until it had passed entirely through Kennedy's body, and through part of Connolly's. I'm not a ballistics expert, but I've seen reconstructions and simulations that I find credible, which have the bullet hitting Kennedy's skull at 1700-1800 FPS, and the tumbling bullet striking Connolly's rib at somewhere around 1500 FPS. It did not hit head on, but struck a glancing blow, enough to shatter the rib, but not enough to shatter the bullet.

[Pepperbelly]

58. But a tumbling bullet is going to ...

deform far worse than one still in full spiral. When it tumbles and changes the face of the bullet going trough bone or tissue, it leaves a far larger "footprint", one that really doesn't match the Gov's wounds, but I digress. While tumbling, it is losing speed as kinetic energy to whatever medium it passes through, the whole process being far more destructive of the bullet. So, the nature of your argument undercuts its own predicate. A tumbling bullet is more likely to frange than a spiraling one.

It is a continium of damage, not a yes-no thing. I have closely studied the photographs of the exhibit. While there was some marginal damage, it was not consistent with the damage done to the head-shot round.

The head-shot round, btw, is not at all consistent with the type of ammunition used in the Mannliecter-Carcano, a jacketed military round that is actually not supposed to frange.

[PeteGammons]

60. It depends on what it hits

If the tumbling bullet (and the wounds ARE consistent with it tumbling, particularly the "keyhole" wound on Connolly's back) grazes the rib, it won't be destroyed. It was just a glancing blow.

[Pepperbelly]

61. but even though ...

a rib bone is slightly less dense than a skull, it is not so much less dense as to cause such disparate damage to the bullet itself. In addition, it serves merely to underscore what is actually significant.

This is really an incidental argument. The real issue for me in the examination of bullets is not this bullet but the other one. The bullet that they say killed Kennedy did not behave as that bullet behaved. The OTHER bullet (the magic one) is more consistent with the behavior of jacketed ammunition than that of the missile to the head which exhibited the characteristics of an entirely different type of ammuntion.

Very specifically, if you want to see the sort of characteristics that hallmarked the head wound, look to a smaller caliber, faster round that was unjacketed and hollow-pointed (ie designed to frange, tumble, and deform through its medium.

:D

[Comicstripper]

73. The "prisine" bullet is bullshit

It was flattened on one side. The shot's been recreated countless time; that shot was completely plausible. The "pristine bullet" is rubbish.

[jlee1933]

25. Conspiracy

I have been waiting to argue this. Whoever believes that Oswald was the lone gunman is ignorant. First off, screw the Warren Commision. In that meeting they smoked cigars and played poker. Jack Ruby had ties to the Mafia. When Oswald was in questioning he said he was a "Patsy"(a mafia term for being framed) and that he never fired a secret shot. Ruby killed him. over a dozen witnesses say they saw gun powder on the grassy knoll. (Roscoe White or whoever else may have done it) Kennedy was going to take US Personel out of Vietnam to make sure there was no war. (Clay Shaw and other greedy people who wanted the war) The rifle that Oswald supposedly used would have made a large form of gunpowder easily seen on the sixth floor. Oswald was unfairly accused simply becuz of his physcological problems and because he wanted the US away from Cuba. Kennedy never had any intention of Liberating CUba like we do in Iraq. He had no reason to shoot him.

[PeteGammons]

31. OK, then. I'm ignorant

Educate me.

1) How many gunmen?
2) Where were they?
3) What was in the brown paper package that Oswald took to work?
4) How did Oswald's rifle get to the 6th floor of the depository?
5) Why did Oswald leave?
6) Why did Oswald shoot J.D. Tippit?
7) Why didn't Ruby show up at Dallas police headquarters until AFTER Oswald was supposed to be moved?
8) If Oswald was just a "patsy", who took the shots from the 6th floor window?
9) If no one shot from the 6th floor, why did Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, looking out the 5th floor window, testify that the shots came from directly overhead?
10) Why did Norman claim to have heard the shells being ejected and hitting the floor?
11) How many people were involved in the conspiracy?
12) Why have there been no credible confessions from any of them?

[Chomp]

48. My opinion

1. One
2. 6th Floor SBD
3. Gun
4. He brought it
5. He just committed murder
6. Don't know. Panic maybe?
7. Was delayed
8. n/a
9. Because they did
10. as above
11. n/a
12. Don't know


Not the truth, not lies, just my opinion.

[tjfreeman]

26. Photos of Oswald in doorway as Kennedy is shot

Ever seen these photos?



http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/JFK/postphotos.html

[OneTwentyoNine]

28. Yeah,and??

[Pepperbelly]

40. are you serious?

That doorways is a good two minutes from the 6th floor of the TSBD. Thus, if the photo is actually during the assasination, it would be difficult for Oswald to be in both places.

[PeteGammons]

52. That's true.

But if it wasn't Oswald then it's irrelevant how many minutes it was from the 6th floor. And the picture's not good enough to say one way or the other. And the Warren commission concluded, based on the picture and his testimony, that the man in the doorway was Billy Lovelady, not Lee Harvey Oswald. And there's certainly nothing approaching certainty in any of the copies of it that I've seen to suggest that they got it wrong...

[Pepperbelly]

63. For starters, Lovejoy testified to wearing a red and white vertically

striped shirt that day and the man in the photo was clearly not wearing a vertically striped shirt. In addition, in color photos of the same field of view show the man wearing a sort of burnt-orange shirt and a t-shirt. Oswald, when arrested, was wearing a very similar colored shirt and a t-shirt. His shirt was missing buttons but in all fairness, that could have come when he scuffled with the Dallas cops in the Texas Theater.

[PeteGammons]

85. Oswald had changed his shirt.

And it's impossible to tell from any copies of the picture that I've seen what color and what design (if any) are on that shirt. In the best copies that I've seen, the shirt appears to have a large plaid. And while Lovelady testified to having worn a striped shirt, he was photographed in the aftermath of the assassination wearing a shirt with a large plaid.

There is not, to my knowledge, any compelling evidence that the figure in the doorway is not Billy Lovelady...

[RedCloud]

32. The body guards were ordered off the vehicle!

Right before the fatal turn. Boy if that isn't something all conspiracy buffs should grab a hold of...

You can find something like that on the History Channel.

[bklyncowgirl]

27. CIA and Mafia

Oswald was a part of it but he was not the lone gunman nor did he know the scope of the plot.

[Sympleesmshn]

53. I would agree

If someone planned it they would have been sure to get him, so they had to have more then one option. It is like having backup programs.

[RedCloud]

29. Sewer shot.

A shot fired from that direction would make somebody's head jerk back and to the left.

[UpsideDownFlag]

30. it was Lyndon Johnson. Kennedy has to die, b/c he was gonna pull out

and Vietnam was Johnson's Cash cow.

[Carl Brennan]

36. One thing I am finding out, the more intelligent

people I know who have read about the history of that time agree that it was a coup. Kennedy was a serious enemy of the CIA and that the CIA was linked to the mob in a big way and specifically that mobsters Santos Trafficante and Carlos Marcello, both cited by the 1970's House Assasination Committee as probable participants in the assasination, were also deeply involved with the Mafia.

FDR was nearly killed by assasins in the 30's and that turned out to be a plan hatched by the Dupont's. Then JFK and Martin Luther King and Ted Kennedy nearly dying in a small plane crash in 1964.

It's absurd to think that these were random acts of violence when the only ones dying are Democrats. Anybody want to discuss Reagan's near assasination and how the Bushies bailed out Hinkley oil company in the 1960's?


"Those who benefit from a crime are most likely the ones who committed it".

[Pepperbelly]

39. I voted 'other' because neither A nor B quite fit all the facts.

I think it was the Corsicans or the Secret Service. If anyone wants to know more about either scenario, post and let me know. I am lazy and will bother with it only if there is an interest.

[Endangered Specie]

46. I find the fact that there are about as many conspiracy THEORIES

and there are conspiracy THEORISTS to be a rather good indacator that they are bogus.

They couldnt have ALL wanted to kill Kennedy on the same day.

One thing I dont get... you do realize that you do not need to advocate more than one shooter in order to have a conspiracy theory, I mean, you could easily as argue that Oswald had different motives, though some real evidence would be nice.

Conspiracy Theorists generally work in the same manner, some large event, that isnt 100% recorded in stone, and the explination of which is not satisfactory (Kennedy being shot by a lone assasin seems much more vain than what CTers proposed was behind it). Couple that, with a solid misttrust of government, the desire to believe other wise, and the ability to blind oneself to all the evidence, and you have yourself a conspiracy theorist.

I love how the fact that some CTers claim the Zapruder (sp) film is proof of conspiracy, and then some others later one say its been altered.

Get your stories straight, come up with a single theory, and amass some evidence, then we can debate.

[H2O Man]

47. Here's a simple one.

I assume that you've read Tip O'Neill's book. On page 211, he writes about a lunch date with two of JFK's best friends, who were with him in Dallas on 11-22-63. Both said they knew for sure that at very least two shots came from behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll. O'Neill discusses in the book why these two men allowed the FBI to convince them to purposely lie to the Warren Commission. Now, can you explain how the FBI pressuring two witnesses to purposely lie to the Warren Commission could be explained as part of a search for the truth? I'm curious, because a smart and honest man like Tip had believed the Warren Report, until he found out that the FBI pressured two witnesses to lie about what they saw and heard. You clearly have this figured out, so I'll anxiously await your explanation.

[H2O Man]

79. A conspiracy of silence

speaks louder than words. -- John Lennon

I wondered how you would explain the FBI pressuring two friends of JFK, who were there at the time of the shooting, and knew without any doubt that at least two shots came from behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll, into lying to the Warren Commission. But, instead of attempting to answer, you skip this completely. I assume if you were confident that there was no conspiracy, you could come up with some reason.

[Pepperbelly]

50. No evidence puts Oswald on the 6th Floor at the time of the murder.

In fact, significant evidence indicates that he was not.

[Endangered Specie]

59. Ah, so for some people, a Manlicher-Carcano

and three rifle shells that came from the gun arent 'evidence'?

[Pepperbelly]

62. and what exactly connects him to the rifle?

The palm print? Conveniently located and ooooops ... completely unobservable until after a quick trip to the morgue. OIr the "package" Oswald carried under his arm when he went to work that morning.

The photograph of Oswald on the street placed him on the ground floor during the shooting. Police tesimony within seconds of the murder placed him in the 2nd floor lunchroom. Even up at this point from an evidencery p.o.v.

Any witnesses put him on 6?

Any witnesses put him on 2? Yep. A cop. And then there's that photo.

[Comicstripper]

87. First of all, yes, a number of witnesses purported seeing / hearing shots

from the sixth floor.
And second, your theory is equally contradictory. He was outside the building during at the time of assassination, but on the second floor "within seconds of the murder"?

Ok.....

[PeteGammons]

93. "what connects him to the rifle"?

How about the fact that he bought it? It was purchased from a mail-order house by an A. Hidell, shipped to a PO Box in Dallas that was Oswald's, and Oswald had an ID for Alek Hidell in his pocket.

And the pictures of him holding it that his wife took. And the fact that the bullet taken from General Walker's house matched the rifle. (And I'm not aware of anyone contending that Oswald didn't make the attempt on Walker, though there's probably someone somewhere who does...)

Seriously, is there really any reason to doubt that it was Oswald's gun?


There's no evidence that Oswald was on the street at the time of the shooting. The unrecognizable figure in the doorway resembles him, but more closely resembles Billy Lovelady, who testified that he was there at that time. There's no evidence of him being anywhere at the time of the shooting, so there's no evidence that he was not on the 6th floor. The gun had his palm print and fingerprints on it.


"The photograph of Oswald on the street placed him on the ground floor during the shooting. Police tesimony within seconds of the murder placed him in the 2nd floor lunchroom."

This is the kind of stuff that eventually invalidates all of the conspiracy stuff. If you read it all, you find people that are positive that a) Oswald was on the street and b) Oswald was in the 2nd floor lunchroom. They can't both be right.

You find people convinced that the shots came from a) the grassy knoll, b) the railroad tracks, c) the manhole cover in the street, d) the schoobook depository. I think that there are actually a couple more that I'm forgetting at the moment.

You find people convinced that it was a) the CIA, b) the Pentagon, c) the Mafia, d) the Russians or e) all of the above. Again, it's not feasible that it's all right, but it IS feasible that it's all wrong.

As with any event to which there are multiple witnesses, there are conflicts in the testimony. Those conflicts remain, no matter what happened. But there is no compelling evidence that invalidates the theory that 1) Lee Harvey Oswald was a nut. 2) He wrapped his gun in brown paper and took it to work. 3) As the presidential motorcade turned into Dealey Plaza, Oswald fired 3 shots. The first missed, the 2nd entered Kennedy's back, exited, entered Connally, and exited, shattering his wrist and coming to rest in his leg. The 3rd hit Kennedy in the head. 4) Oswald walked away from the scene. 5) Later that afternoon, he was stopped by Dallas police officer JD Tippit. In the course of that stop, Tippit became suspicious, Oswald became nervous/scared/panicky and shot him. There were witnesses. 6) Following the testimony of witnesses, the police were able to track the man who shot Tippit to the theatre, where they arrested Oswald.

The vast bulk of the evidence suggests that that is what transpired in Dallas.

[Comicstripper]

81. The best evidence I've seen

Is a complete and total, 100% thorough computer model of dealy plaza. exact, to-scale, totally accurate. from every angle, Zapruder film incorporated, and everything. They traced the exact angle of each bullet. And each came from that one room on the sixth floor.

[Emillereid]

57. Anyone see the new DVD -- JFKII that shows a Bush family connection?

I have it -- poppa Bush sure looks like he was involved. I'm not that well read on the assassination stuff -- but what I have never been able to reconcile with the official story is the way so many people turned or ran towards the grassy knoll -- eyewitness accounts can be lousy, but humans do sound location really, really well. Also the way JFK's head was thrown back doesn't look like a front entry bullet to me -- and wasn't a large exit wound found in the back of his head -- at least by the first doctors who examined him?

I heard a story about JFK's first casket bobbing up in the Atlantic a while back -- is that true and if so -- what the official story of that!

[noonwitch]

94. I have read rumors that GHW's phone number was in Oswald's address book

I don't remember the source, and I don't know if it's true.

[shesemsmom]

64. Oswald couldn't have hit the broad side of a barn

it he was standing two paces from it. There was no exit wound from the front, so how could he have been shot from the back. JFK"s face would have been gone. The bullet that killed him hit him in the temple. Come there was at least to shooters and one of them was on the knoll. If the media wants to investigate some thing let then investigate how Oswald got in and out of the Soviet Union and Cuba so freely during the cold war.He was no genies and he certainly was no leader and he wasn't in it alone, or with out guilt

[Pepperbelly]

65. there was an exit wound in front ... at least in front of his ears. nt

[shesemsmom]

66. small bullet entry wound in right temple only

medic and exray tech's said the back of his head were gone. exit wounds make BIG HOLES!!!!

[Pepperbelly]

68. Do I really need to post the Zapruder pics?

They are gruesome but prove my point.

[shesemsmom]

71. Z films played forward which is the way most people watch it show

frames 213 and 214 showing head going back to the left and forward. Autopys photos prove the injury. They never thought we'd see those babies.

[Pepperbelly]

74. Actually ...

it's frames 314 on but what they also reveal is the damage to Kennedy's head. All of the damage is in front of his ears. That is the exit wound. The evidence is right in front of you.



Right there in front of you.

[shesemsmom]

75. alright 313

and the people to the left of the car were covered in blood and brain matter
explain that please.

[barb162]

67. I think it was not Oswald, but I don't know who did it; I also think the

Russians had nothing to do with it.

[Comicstripper]

69. Until very recently, I thought it was some sort of conspracy...

I don't think that's the case anymore. I've seen all the documentaries, and understand the discrepencies. But I've also seen 3D computer rendering, frame by frame, of the Zapruder film, the line of firing trough Kennedy's entrance and exit wounds line up with the window... I'm not saying he wasn't hired. But I think it was Oswald.
A documentary on the History channel last night talked about this. They mentioned that some folks say Oswald's associates had some cash reward on Kennedy's head. Of course, that doesn't make sense, since he couldn't collect the cash...

[AntiCoup2K4]

70. Poppy Bush directed the operation. Hunt & Sturgis did the shooting.

Jack Ruby, who met with Hunt and Sturgis before the murder, batted "cleanup" by killing Oswald at the police station, leaving the "patsy" to take the rap and impossible to defend himself.

[POTGNE]

82. It was George HW and the CIA

It was a major conspiracy which played right into the hands of the Bush family and gave them the boost they needed to start their little future monarchy.

[POTGNE]

83. Of course I have no proof of this, but

nothing would surprise me when you're talking about the Bush family!

[Emillereid]

91. Have you seen the DVD called JFKII

I have it -- poppa Bush sure looks like he was involved.

I'm not that well read on the assassination stuff -- but what I have never been able to reconcile with the official story is the way so many people turned or ran towards the grassy knoll -- eyewitness accounts can be lousy, but humans do sound location really, really well. Also the way JFK's head was thrown back doesn't look like a front entry bullet to me -- and wasn't a large exit wound found in the back of his head -- at least by the first doctors who examined him?

I heard a story about JFK's first casket bobbing up in the Atlantic a while back -- is that true and if so -- what the official story of that!

[gordianot]

77. Cronkite is wrong.

He stated if it was a conspiracy someone would have come forward, you cannot keep this secret. What happens when the scope is massive?

I disagree, it is almost like the Agatha Christie's Orient Express in scope. There are so many conspirators and factions involved it is almost impossible to ever sort it out.

Maybe this works for elections?

[Minstrel Boy]

80. But people have come forward.

People HAVE talked. Some have been killed for it, and some were already dying when they spoke.

But of course, the lonenutters keep repeating "Why hasn't anyone come forward?"

[gordianot]

88. True

I've followed this for 40 years.

[Minstrel Boy]

78. Prophetic words from Mort Sahl in 1968:

People who can't understand how the US reached the nadir of Bush need to go back at least as far as the Kennedy assassination. That that crime was left unpunished, and the treason prospered, is why.

ARGO: What would you say are the roots of this whole era?

SAHL: Fascism. It started with the death of Roosevelt. They moved in and they negated every treaty we made with every world leader who didn't fit the fascist/militarist mold. We went back on our word. As David Schoenbrun says very well, "I am not a dissenter for saying this. Those who betrayed American policy are the dissenters." We've gone back on the dream of national independence and we were the model for the rest of the world. Then when they followed our model, we attacked them for it. Shameful. No one has a right to stain the American flag. And unfortunately, we have people in this country who did it. If America goes, it will surely be an inside job.

...

ARGO: Why is the trial that Mr. Garrison's pursuing really the trial of the American people?

SAHL: Because we have to decide. Once the neo-fascists became bold enough to slay the President on the street, they showed their hand. They showed how arrogant they had become. Now it's a question of symptom. That crime was a national symptom. If we can turn our back on that, we will pay a terrible price. That will be the end of this democracy. As a matter of fact, it's been dying since Kennedy's death. We have to cleanse our soul. It's much the same as the French when they regained their national honor, not by framing Dreyfus, but by admitting that they did.

ARGO: What does Garrison mean: "The key to the whole case is through the looking glass. Black is white; white is black"?

SAHL: He means that the first thing the government did when the President was killed was to ratify his death and to appoint a group of honorable men to initial a fraudulent report. To eventually say there is no fourth bullet, even though there's a fourth bullet hole. The man was shot at from three sides, but there was only one side. In other words, the government decrees it is so. And that eventually the government may be forced to form a Ministry of Truth which will rule there was no John Kennedy, if it becomes convenient. That's what he means. When Lyndon Johnson says to us, as an example, "We have continually keep up brush fire wars to protect the peace." Well, that's Orwell. War is peace, and peace is war, and love is hate. And you finally sell it just that way; the contradiction. And you do it by making the American people mad because those are the mouthings of a madman. We can be driven mad; it's the same virus that bit the Germans.

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mort%20Sahl/Mort%20Sahl%20-%20Argo.html

[Carl Brennan]

89. Profound assessment. I have to read more Sahl.

[Algorem]

92. it fits

[donkeyotay]

101. "...that crime was left unpunished, and the treason prospered..."

It's so easy to sidetrack people with details of endless dispute. But a few points stand out, always starting with the question, "Who benefits?"

Bless my pointed little American head, but I've been reading up on JFK. I was surprised to find out how much of a hawk he was - much of that because that's what the American people wanted. But I also found out what a revolutionary he later turned out to be. He wanted to end the Vietnam War, he sought peace with the Soviets, he sought peace with Castro... in other words, he was a disaster for the business of war, and they put him out of business.

Read the history between then and now, and see if you can spot the theme, the explanatory value of the hypothesis that it was a coup.

[dr.strangelove]

95. It was Elvis!

I saw him at the Book Depository that day.

[Carl Brennan]

97. Gosh that's funny.

[dr.strangelove]

98. Sorry

but I needed to inject a bit of comedy here. On a more serious note, I believe Oswald was a "patsy" and took the fall. I am not sure he was not one of the shooters, but I believe there were more than one.

Anyway, sorry if the joke bothered some of you, I thought it was funny.

[kiki]

99. Perhaps the more appropriate options...

Who killed Kennedy?

- The left wing (Oswald, apparently)
- The right wing (everybody else)

[DemonFighterLives]

102. I voted with the group

But believe there were also elements of the mafia involved which was hard to tell apart from members of the cia and fbi, etc etc.
Whoever they all were, I have come to believe that Oswald was totally set up as a patsy. Warren Commission totally sucked.

Much confusion results as evidenced by the mixture of theories here and everywhere. It has been turned from simple murder to millions of pages of disinformation.
I read Jim Garrisons book "On The Trail Of The Assassins", years ago and he makes the most sense of it all.

If someone had not touched the rifle and casings in the "sniper nest" which was stated in the latest History channel story, we may have some evidence to evaluate. Also if we had the original coroners pictures or the presidents brain. Why did they completely scrub the presidential limo? The way these crime scenes were bungled only leaves one theory- conspiracy and coverup.
Some of the repeaters here of the government line or of Posner bs need to find more evidence.
The list of people who knew too much and are dead because of it is very long.

To help a poster up thread Judith Baker was with the cia on the cancer experiments, so it is entirely believeable that Ruby got a dose of that medicine.