A question for older DUers....

[Moloch]

I wasn't born yet when Nixon was in office, but I have always thought of him as the most evil quintessential republican for some reason. I was wondering, is Shrub worse than Nixon?

[sangh0]

1. Yes, by far

Though Nixon was a criminal, his entire moral order was NOT based on the idea that he had perfect Moral Authority, and everyone had to obey his commands. In fact, in many ways, Nixon was remarkably LIBERAL. Noam Chomsky often refers to Nixon as "our last liberal President"

Nixon once proposed a Minimum Income, where no matter what, every adult American would be garaunteed a minimum income. I can't imagine bush* proposing that.

[silverweb]

9. Also...

Nixon reached out to Red China and signed the EPA into law.

Can you imagine Shrub doing that?

[serryjw]

13. yes, I agree

Nixon's downfall was power & desire to win. He did some good things and didn't TRY to destroy the Constitution and this republic

[Johnyawl]

28. Hell, Nixon was more liberal than Clinton!

Well, not really, but he was certainly no right wing fundy. OSHA and the EPA were both created during his administration, and he imposed wage & price controls to rein in inflation. (To listen to the conservatives at the time you would have thought he was imposing socialism on the country!) Nixon began the process of Detente with the USSR, started the talks that led to the SALT treaty, began the process of normalizing relations with China, and brought about a truce to the Yom Kipper war that laid the groundwork for the Camp David accords.

Oh, and he bombed the hell out of North Vietnam and Cambodia, and prolonged the war in Vietnam for 5 years looking for a winnable solution.

At the time the Democrats tried to credit Henry Kissinger with all his successes, made Dr. K out to be the brains of that operation. But if that was true, how come Kissinger ain't done squat since Nixon got thrown out of office?

Nixon was much more intelligent than bush, and a far more complex character.

[Wright Patman]

29. 'Negative income tax'

is what the famed monetarist economist Milton Friedman called it. He was its greatest proponent. I'm sure that's where Nixon got the idea.

Friedman's chief argument, as I recall, was that it would cut out the middlemen (or "bureaucrats" as he called them and you would just have had to see the sneer on his face and hear the derision he had in his voice to fully appreciate his contempt for same) administering the social welfare programs.

He hosted a series on PBS touting his Chicago School philosophy called "Free to Choose."

But what has changed is that there is now no consensus that there should be a 'safety net' at all. Instead, there seems to be an emerging consensus that those who are in economic freefall be allowed to hit the pavement at full speed.

[Fla Dem]

64. The media, mostly print were hound dogs on Nixon and his crew.

Then there was only the 3 major networks too, so you didn't get a 24 hour stream of punditry. No major talk radio if any at all, I can't rmember. So the news you got was the evening news and newspapers. Reporting meant something then. Wasn't manufactured around 10 second sound bites. The good reporters dug for details. The media today is lazy and scared of the Bush administration, RW punditry on cable and RW talk radio.

The other thing that makes Bush so dangerous is that Nixon had a Democrat legislature to keep him in check. Bush has a rubber stamp Repug legislature and will soon have a rubber stamp Supreme Court.

[Sugarbleus]

68. Didn't Nixon also promote food stamps??

There was some social benefit he put into place...can't remember exactly. Anyway, Nixon is a PRINCE compared to Bush. He was involved in some underhanded things, but he was a "Quaker" at heart..

Geez, how far we have slipped..who would have thunk it way back then.

[silverweb]

2. Without a doubt.

Shrub is exponentially worse.

[shraby]

3. It would be like comparing apples and oranges.

Nixon was a saint alongside shrub.

[UrbScotty]

7. I've often said that any president would be a saint next to Bush. (nt)

[UrbScotty]

4. I wasn't around back then either.

However, I do know that Nixon at least had a coherent foreign policy.

[The empressof all]

5. Yes,

From a purely emotional point of view, I never felt the fear with Nixon in the White House as I do now with Bush. You also need to remember that there were ethical Republicans during the Nixon administration who understood and objected to his corruption and worked with the Democratic majority in the House to get him out. We no longer have those Checks and Balances with our current Congress.

[pop goes the weasel]

6. yes

no one ever thought Nixon was God's prophet.

[Midlodemocrat]

8. Beyond a shadow of a doubt

...Nixon seemed to have strong political aspirations, whereas Shrub seems to want to rule the world.

[WestHoustonDem]

10. Shrub is much worse

[Career Prole]

11. Nixon gets the individual evilness award, IMO.

But Nixon's net effect will be dwarfed by the shrub administration's team evilness effort. Throw in a completely complicit corporate media and it's an Evil Machine the likes of which has never been seen, I'm afraid.

[Atman]

12. Bush makes Nixon look like a piker

Nixon was a mean, ornery coot who became embittered and paranoid after his years of bad karma began to catch up with him. W is too stupid to be embarrassed about his actions, and he's been too propped up by The Family to be embittered about anything. He's just plain evil. Evil and cunning. I'd have voted for Nixon over Bush without hesitation...even though Nixon is dead.

[merh]

14. At least 1000% worst -

Not only is he worse than tricky dick, I believe (adjusting my :tinfoilhat:) that poppy is the one that turned on tricky dick and fed Woodward & Bernstein their story. Conservative repukes didn't like nixon, he was too moderate. Woodward was poppy's and the weed's lap dog during the campaign, he is not an investigative journalist. He actually sang the weed's praises. :puke:

[sangh0]

17. WOW! What an interesting piece of speculation

about Poppy being "Deep Throat" or at least being connected to DT

[merh]

56. Seriously, go back and read the crap Woodward wrote or said

about the weed. He never slammed him, he said all sorts of wishy washy things like he was focused, determined, et cetera. If anyone owed us (the public) a duty relative to thorough and unfetted investigative journalism, it was Woodward, but he was just a lap dog. He owes poppy, so he didn't and won't truly report on the BFEE. What a coward. What a sellout.

[kiki]

20. Who's "the weed"?

[signmike]

38. Shrub Junior

[merh]

55. The weed that would be king

dubya, *, shrub, et cetera

[sandnsea]

24. Nixon was a protege

of Prescott Bush. I hardly think they would have found a need to bring him down.

[pretzel4gore]

41. the world was so different then

maybe it's just nostalgia, but nixon america was free, and money was plentiful it seemed. sure nixon was 'one of them' just like lyndon johnson was never really 'one of ours' but compare anything to bush, who conjures up images of caligula (roman emperor who had his horse elected senator) nixon at least loved the country, left or right didn't matter

[sandnsea]

44. Oh I don't know

About all that love the country stuff. I've grown pretty cynical, to too many of these Bush types, love the country just means loving American corporations. Always has. The country was in a huge uproar then over the air, water, bald eagle, etc. And still had a hope to end poverty and racism. Just one of those siutations where they had to do something to calm the masses, so Nixon did. Then Republicans immediately set out an agenda to convince the masses those programs actually hurt the people and were brought about by the ravings of radicals. It took 30 years, but they did it.

[pretzel4gore]

51. in the movie 'nixon' there was a scene

where some texan heavies threatened nixon if he went too far in regulating oil industry (or something) and nixon poliely telling them 'if i want, you're dead'...anyway, i recall how nixon went out during anti war protests late at night with just one guard and spent hour talking to protestors...also, nixon came from the Quaker tradition, which he always had to live down as a rightwing republican (the Quakers are among the most intractable peace and liberal activists) somehow i don't see nixon (or even ronald reagan for that matter) standing by when bush is bankrupting american politics by turning the press into a organ of government....as much as nixon was frustrated by the media, see watergate, he knew its importance (?)

[sandnsea]

57. I just disagree

If they'd had a 9/11 and were able to silence the media because of it, they would have. Nixon and Reagan both. Reagan, particularly, started everything that Bush has taken to the most extreme level he can get away with. One of these days I'll go back and try to find some think tank articles from the 70's and early 80's, this was a long term plan. Maybe Nixon & Reagan were duped by these corporate heads and actually thought they were right, as duped as so many Americans are today. I don't know. I think there were just still too many Americans who hadn't been brainwashed by Reaganism for them to get away with as much as Bush is able to today.

[Jeanette in FL]

60. There seems to be a lot of jealousy in the Bush Family

It seems to me that George HW, never seemed to match up to Prescott, so it is not a far stretch, for GHWB to feel threatened by Nixon if his Dad had such high regards for him.

[merh]

61. See posts 1, 2, 13 & 28 above.

He may have been his protege (past tense) but he began coloring outside of the lines, he went astray and in effect, betrayed Prescott & the BFEE doesn't take to well to those who are not loyal, let alone betray them. Offering him up to the wolves would be right up their alley. It taught a lesson to him and anyone else that betrayed them.

[sangh0]

66. Saddam was also a BFEE protege

Fat lot of good it did him.

[donco6]

15. Bush worse by far

I do think Nixon had the country's best interest in his warped mind. Bush is in it for personal gain only - for him and his buds.

[ret5hd]

16. nixon would be decryed as a raging communist today (nt)

[dogman]

18. Look at the media pundits who were in Nixon's WH.

They seem astounded by B$$$ and what he does.

[KoKo]

19. There are many similarities...but the media wasn't totally owned then and

people read more. There was more discussion in "print media." The difference now is that most folks get their news from TV and the RW print media. Very few read the Nation or other publications which give a different view or perspective. There aren't discussion shows on the Networks like their used to be, or special investigative reports. Those are all gone. We're left with "60 Minutes" and an occasional PBS "Frontline."

We had Hoover at the FBI (scary) and many of the old Joe McCarthy folks who had been outed were still behind the scenes (they are still behind the scenes today :D) and so Nixon's administration was similar to this. But, Nixon had much more experience than this Idiot-in-Thief, although the people around him were like the hacks we see around Bush. I think Nixon was more intelligent but had psycho problems like Chimp.

I think what we are going through now is worse, but it was pretty bad during Nixon. I couldn't believe he was re-elected and I was very young but knew what was going on. Nixon should have been fully impeached, because when he wasn't he seemed to many that he "got away with it" and was maybe "wrongly accused." That's how we ended up with G. Gordon Liddy coming back as a radio talk show host and the rest of the "gang" responsible for the Watergate Break In going underground and working behind the scenes until they could come back in power.

It's all the same to me. Nixon/Chimp/Rummy/Rove/Kissinger/Baker/Liddy/Colson....Pat Buchanan.

It's like an evil that never goes away. And has come back stronger having learned how to thrive.

I'm sorry to be so dark about this...but these are dark times. From Watergate Burglery bringing down a President we go to two stolen elections and the President thrives.....That's pretty dark in my book...:-(

[Lefty48197]

21. Both Bush's and Reagan are far worse than Nixon

their party chose to associate itself with satan in response to the Watergate investigations. They've been doing the devil's work ever since.

[signmike]

43. I read somewhere yesterday...

probably here at DU, the writer said about Bush, whom he considered not only to be the worst president America has ever had, but that compared to him all the others can be considered 'Good'. I'm not sure I'd lump Reagan in with 'good' anything - but then Bush isn't done yet.

[MrModerate]

22. Nixon was wicked, but smart

An evil man, to be sure, and downright mean, but not in love with his wickedness and pretending it was virtue. When he cut someone's heart out, you knew it was plain business.

He came from the middle class, and while he considered just about everyone to be patsies, that included the rich. He didn't lick much butt or suck much dick along class lines.

He also wanted to govern and not reign.

Nixon had stature and gravitas; Bush is a penny-ante piece of shit who's created multiple disasters much larger than himself.

Ultimately, regardless of the qualities of the two men, Bush will be judged as having caused orders of magnitude more damage to America.

[Mabel Dodge]

23. Nixon was evil but smart....

Bush is evil and stupid.

I never thought I would ever say this, but Nixon and Reagan look good now.

[Ardee]

25. Wow, look at all the old people

So is this an AARP meeting? (I refused membership in AARP because I am against lobbyists, even those on my side)

Nixon was many things that Bush was not; among these was of course his intellect, his brilliance in certain areas such as foreign policy (China) and ,as has been already stated, his concepts of liberalism in government.He was also a paranoid , a trait he might share with Bush.

Bush is a stooge, a third rate intellect in the mold of Reagan, someone who can deliver a message but understands little of what he is saying.

[BlueEyedSon]

26. Yeah, and here's and EXPERT opinion:

Nobody knows more, both from first hand experience and legal expertise, about the abuse of presidential power and their dangers than John Dean, former counsel to President Nixon. In WORSE THAN WATERGATE, Dean delivers a stunning indictment of the current Bush administration, and issues an urgent alarm to the nation: the Bush team's obsession with secrecy and their willingness to deceive make them even more dangerous than Nixon's. Dean brilliantly explores Bush's emphasis on image over substance; his angry, mistrustful personality; his excessive fear of leaks; his reversing the work of his predecessors in opening up government; his imperial governing combined with deeply flawed decision making; and his serious abuses of national security secrecy. From refusing to explain the precarious health of the powerful vice president to hiding the identity of those setting the nation's energy policy, from obstructing 9/11 investigations to unprecedented secrecy in the name of fighting terrorism, Dean exposes the dangers of a presidency that is using weapons of mass deception against the American public.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/031600023X/104-0341734-4447162?v=glance

[shesemsmom]

53. now dont that say it all!!!!!!!!!

:evilgrin:

[Ernesto]

27. St ronnie made tricky dick look like a liberal

but then came the "thing" known as chimp........ by far the worst ever. However, we are still suffering nixon's legacy: a little thing called his "southern strategy". (when the repukes made capital out of racism).

[MichiganVote]

30. Both serial killers of Democracy

However, shrub has a better political machine.

Nixon on the other hand was a better con job politician.

Both have had people who ratted them out. The problem then as now is the country, not the men in power.

[Gman]

31. I very much wish we now had Nixon/Agnew

as prez and VP than Bush/Cheney. Even Hunter S. Thompson agrees on this.

I would have been very afraid in 1974 had I known I would live to say those words. In 1974 I could never have imagined such an insidious cancer in this country as we have today. I always thought Nixon was as bad as it could possibly get. That belief was based on a sense of decency in both the GOP and the Democratic Party. Nixon trashed the boundaries of decency as they were defined during his terms including widescale slaughter of US troops in Viet Nam as well as civilian Vietnamese. This is no different than Iraq today. However, today's GOP recognizes absolutely no boundaries to decency.

[immoderate]

32. As a politician, Nixon felt a need to balance his evil deeds.

He went to China, started EPA, because he was under tremendous pressure.

Bush, on the other hand, is totally self righteous. Will never be bothered with remorse.

--IMM

[wurzel]

33. Nixon wanted univeral health care

[NV Whino]

34. Yes!!!

Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Pepperbelly]

35. No question.

Even apart from some basic evil they might share, Nixon was, according to some, perhaps he most intelligent. Go figure.

[recovering democrat]

36. toss-up to me

There is much to learn about what may yet happen with the Bush administration by learning about the Nixon years. The "handlers" of Nixon included some folks to make Rove seem sweet in comparison. The idiocy surrounding the Clinton impeachment aside, impeachment is a very serious matter. The dangers of the Nixon years were never explored as they should have been because he resigned and avoided the impeachment trial, so much was swept under the rug.

On the surface, Bush looks worse but he is getting a lot closer look, a lot sooner, than Nixon did.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. Nixon was a ruthless politician. Bush is a True Believer.

As horrible as Nixon was, he always worked in what he saw as his best political interest. He wasn't an ideologue. He was a fervent anti-communist who embraced Mao for example.

Bush really believes that America needs to be turned into a nation of bosses and underlings, and made to resemble a sort of "Mayberry USA" complete with dutiful wives, subservient minorities, and "patriotic" soldiers sent off to kill for capitalism.

If you liked the '50s, you'd love Bush's America.

[candy]

49. I loved the fifties----strong unions.Made in the USA all over the place

People are always bashing the fifties and they were just fine,not perfect,but fine.

There has never been a perfect era and there never will be.

[Stinky The Clown]

39. Bush is 1000x worse than Nixon

I never saw Nixon in quite the same bad light as many others seem to. True enough he tried to subvert the government. True enough he was technically a criminal. But he also did a great deal of good. He was, in contrast to his reputation, progressive on a number of fronts ..... international relations, the environment, civil rights.

He was the kind of president who will treated more kindly by historians than the then-contemporary citizenry.

On balance, Nixon had some good points. With Chimpus Khan, I cannot even find a neutral point, let alone a good one.

[mcscajun]

40. Yes, far, far worse than Nixon ever was.

I spent a lot of time being angry during the Nixon Administration; but with the Bush Administration and the swirling mass of insanity, greed and theocracy that surrounds it, I'm still angry, yes...but more terrified than angry.

Exponential differences, to be sure.

[Octafish]

42. Nixon was a Saint...

...compared to Smirk. While a warmonger, Nixon started the EPA and funded the Great Society programs that reduced poverty and increased college graduation rates for middle- and lower-income kids.

In fact, Smirk's Poppy pulled the plug on Old Tricky Dick. Things have only gotten worse since. Now we have Big Dick Cheney. You KNOW what he does to America.

[mithnanthy]

45. YES!

Definately! And I HATED Nixon!

[jhain]

46. you don't have to have been alive then to know this answer now

hell, my dog knows.

[Pastiche423]

47. When I pulled my 1st lever

for a presidential candidate in 1972, I did so w/a fear of what further harm would come to my country if Nixon was re-elected.

When I drew an arrow to my choice of presidential candidate in 2000, it was w/fear once again, but w/an added dread of something wicked this way cometh.

Nixon had been my measuring stick of bad presidents until 2001. I now perceive myself naive as to what was truly evil.

Nixon was a crooked SOB. Whistle ass is pure evil.

My hope since 2000 has been that whistle ass will go the way of Nixon, only sooner.

[eauclaireliberal]

48. I'm only 35, but...

Garrison Keillor does a great job in comparing yesterday's Republicans to today's neo-cons:

Fifties Republicans were giants compared to today’s. Richard Nixon was the last Republican leader to feel a Christian obligation toward the poor.

[shesemsmom]

50. Nixon was greedy

he wanted to reassure his reelection with the break in of the Watergate building and Demo head quarters. He got his hand caught in the cookie jar As campaign promise he promised to take the troops out of Vietnam, and mind you it wasn't his war and he kept that promise. Was he worse that shrub absolutely not. Was he a bad president yes. Bush stole 2 election and he has us asshole deep in a war in a country we have no business in. Hitler would have been proud. I was almost 17 when Nixon resigned. That stuff meant nothing to Me then it was years later when I fully began to understand what had happened. Even though I thought he was a bad president I insisted upon his death that the US flag were I work was at half staff...I wouldn't give the same consideration to shrub :hippie:
no differnce between Hilter and shrub expect the year

[Jimmy D]

52. Nixon had a brain " nt "

[Lorien]

54. I would take Nixon over Shrub in a heartbeat

those Watergate days seem like some kind of Utopian dream right now!

[HamdenRice]

58. Nixon=evil on power issues Shrub=evil on policy

Nixon was paranoid, power obsessed, secretive, and didn't care much about the constitutional allocation of power and checks and balances. But oddly enough, his positions on policy were not that different from the centrist wings of both parties. He was in favor of stability and realism in international relations; he favored affirmative action (if only cynically to get black voters back to the republican party), he was in favor of regulation of corporations, and even once imposed price controls. His downfall was is relationship to power.

I think in retrospect, Nixon's worst fault was that he was ruthless toward defenseless, poorer, developing countries, from Vietnam, to Cambodia, to South Africa to Chile. But he kissed up to Russia and China in an attempt to divide them and create a three way power struggle rather than a two way (US vs Russia + China) struggle.

Shrub is simply bizarre, corrupt and incompetent. He is much, much worse than Nixon.

[Lindacooks]

59. Yes

[Cleita]

62. Nixon still believed in upholding the Constitution.

Dumbya uses it for toilet paper.

Also, Nixon wanted a national health care program so that all Americans could have access to health care. All I see is Shrub doing what he can to destroy what health care we do have in the form of Medicare and Medicaid.

Also, Clinton sometimes sought Nixon's advice on foreign policy. I can't see anyone seeking Bush's in the future.

[Dees]

63. "I am not a crook"....wink

At least with Nixon you understood what you were getting. A beady eyed, lying, shifty, dishonest, ruthless, paranoid bastard.

With bunnyW you don't know from one minute to the next if it will Cheney's wars, Falwell's religion or Rice's incompetence. It's government by surprise. BunnyW's ability to let those around him, who are criminally insane IMHO, rule is a far more dangerous situation. This is the worst administration in the history of our country headed by the most ignorant boob to ever hold the office.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

65. Yes, Nixon was devious, but he actually governed the country

much better than the Bushboy. In some ways, he was more liberal than the current DLC.

[fshrink]

67. It's beyond compare! nt