A question to people who are Pro-Life

[ck4829]

Is this what must be protected at any cost?

[rockymountaindem]

1. Is that a human embryo?

[RC]

5. Hard to tell isn't it?

[tjdee]

2. If the heart's beating, it's alive.

I wouldn't kill a cat/bird/puppy either.
Though I do kill bugs :silly: .

I'm pro-choice, but that embryo will be a person. I think calling it a batch of cells or whatever, is a bit disengenuous.

on edit: That embryo will be a mouse!! Eww. But I wouldn't kill that either.

[hinachan]

11. Um...it's a mouse embryo, actually.

And I wish to hell people would be half as concerned about that actually-born and living human beings as they are about embryos. It's not like severing the umbilical cord makes you instantly able to fend for yourself against all odds.

[tjdee]

13. ITA which is why I'm pro-choice.

Personally, I'm pro-life. I could not have an abortion.

But knowing how difficult that decision is to make, having been in that situation, there is NO WAY I would ever want the government to force my decision on anyone else. Especially because, as you say, they don't give a shit about people already here. The pro-lifers aren't falling over themselves to help me and my kid live well because I didn't have an abortion!

[jwirr]

24. Oh so true!

and not only do they not help single parents they also look down on them. Never mind that they made a discision to keep their child. I was working on a habitate for humanity house which was going to a single parent. The workers actually said "We are so glad you did not have an abortion." It really pissed the single mother off because she had never even thought of having an abortion. If they ever get their priorities set right maybe they will understand that the living are as important as the about to be living.

[liberalhistorian]

40. Exactly!

I was in that situation too and it was the most agonizing decision-making process I ever had to go through. I knew that I personally could never go through with an abortion, but I couldn't imagine not at least having the choice available and having to deal with the goverment imposing itself in my life like that. It was so intensely personal and private.

[Child_Of_Isis]

3. It kind of looks like a puppy.

A blue and yellow puppy ;-)

[vpigrad]

4. Is that a dog or a monkey?

The snout makes it look like a dog, but the tail makes it look like a monkey. Either way, why would you say it's something someone would think "must be protected at any cost?"

[fugue]

6. That's human?

Looks like a dog to me.

(Not that I don't think dogs are as worthy of respect as humans; I'm a nonhuman rights person. I am not, however, a fetus rights person.)

[ck4829]

7. It's a Mouse embryo. No, I would never kill it or a human. But...

most Conservatives wouldn't regret killing mice by the 1000's.

[dorktv]

8. They are anti-choicers...NOT pro-lifers.

Pro-life people want to save ALL life and somehow magically live on air.

[ohioliberal]

9. It looks like a fish but It's not a human until it takes its first breath

[tjdee]

14. Really?

So the human lungs/heart/brain/arms/legs/blood are not human?

Are they aliens?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. In my philosophy,

the soul is what is important, and the soul does not enter the body until the person takes their first breath. I always figured that pro-lifers must think that the soul enters the body when it is merely a collection of cells. Is this assumption incorrect?

[tjdee]

17. Maybe...my philosophy is straight biology.

If it's got a heartbeat, it's living (IMO).

Oh, and I go by the dictionary too, defining the word human.
http://www.merriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=human

I'm sure there's more than a few fundies who go with the whole "zygotes have souls" thing, I'm just not one of thm.

But I can respect your view. Which is a big reason I'm pro-choice, I realize everyone doesn't think like me.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. I can respect pro-lifers

I have a good friend who is pro-life. She has a very good reason to be: she was adopted by a good Catholic couple who went on to adopt the other children in their family. These folks are also anti-death penalty, etc, etc-in other words, they are consistant and walk their talk.

My problem is having government legislate morality. Just as I am against the government forbidding all abortions, I am also against governments, such as China, mandating abortions. This procedure should be a personal choice without government interference.

[Yupster]

29. You must be lying ayesh because

I have read 100 times on DU that pro-lifers don't give a shit about people once they are born. That is not even to be argued. It is accepted DU fact.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

43. I don't believe you read my post

I was referring to a specific family who are all pro-life. I explained how they are consistant with their beliefs and walk their talk. However, I have read of others who say they are pro-life but also support the death penalty and do nothing to support adoption. These people are the ones to which many people refer, I am sure. I think that whenever one is talking about someone who is anti-abortion, one should ask whether their beliefs are consistant and if they act upon their beliefs.

The main point of my post is that I don't like any type of morality to be turned into legislation.

My comments were from me, and not intended to represent others on DU.

[Yupster]

25. My son was born Caesarian

I saw the doctor go in to get him.

So after seeing my son's birth through Caesarian, I'm supposed to believe that while the doctor showed me his position on the sonogram, went in for him, reached for him, and picked him up, he was not my son? Yet when he took his first breath he was?

Having seen the event myself, that's just stupid.

The second before the doctor lifted him out and the second after, he was the very same little boy, very human and very much alive.

The abortion issue is an issue with very gray areas folks.

People who take such radical stands on one side or the other just leave themselves open to obvious and well deserved ridicule.

[ogradda]

10. what kind of embryo is that?

is that a dog?

[ck4829]

12. Mouse

[H2O Man]

16. Walt Disney

says "yes!"

[ck4829]

18. The Answer

As you all may know by now the embryo pictured is a mouse.

I would never want to see this or a human embryo killed.

But, here in lies the problem with being anti-choice.

Many people had a problem identifying what it was. Human, Dog, Monkey, etc.

At this stage in life, how different is a mouse embryo from a human embryo?

The Question:

Why aren't there Anti-Abortion protesters hurling fire bombs at labs where mice are being killed by the 1000's

[sweetladybug]

19. YOUR SHOULD HAVE SAID "ANTI CHOICE" NOT "PRO LIFE"

[LoZoccolo]

27. IT WAS MUCH BETTER THAN "CATS".

I usually don't get picky about using the name a group designates for itself to talk about them.

[RivetJoint]

49. And pro-abortion rights

not pro-choice

And it's anti-abortion rights, not anti-choice.

[strykerzero]

20. the related problem

There is a bigger question (at least in my opinion) In order to come to a conclusion on the abortion issue we first need to come to a universally accepted conclusion of when that embryo becomes a human life (therefor protected by murder laws) You ask a dozen people that question and youl get a dozen answers.
Personally I don't feel I have the right to force my belief's on other people and I certainly do NOT trust/want any politician to do it for me.

[Yupster]

30. The problem stryker with the

argument that we are truly unsure whether a fetus is human or not is that if we really don't know, then for heaven's sake, don't kill it until we know.

Who would say I want to target shoot into this box, but someone said there may be a human in it. We don't know. Aw hell, we don't know so let's shoot. Makes no sense. If you don't know, you better err on the side of safety until you know.

Just not a logical argument to say I don't know if it's human or not, so until I know let's kill it.

[strykerzero]

39. I Agree

Thats why I'm pro-life for me personally. I don't want to risk it. But at the same time I'm pro-choice when it comes to others because by my faith and my ethics tell me I have no right to force my views on others.

[Kali]

22. Most mammalian fetuses (feti?)look alike

But my real point is that WAY too many of the anti-choice so-called "pro-life" advocates are actuall only pro poor womens fetus life. Not for their daughters who might find themselves "in trouble" not for the already born, and for sure not for those on death row or of some faith other than American christianity.

[tedoll78]

23. Hmm..

I'd refer the anti-choicers to the precise text of the 14th Amendment..

"All persons born or naturalized..."

Note that it doesn't say "all persons unborn."
Or "all persons conceived."
(and, perhaps off-topic, it doesn't say "except for those homos"..)

The legal definition of "born" is pretty cut-and-dry. If you don't like it, fundies, try to amend it. Don't rely on a panel of judges to write legislation from the bench..

[Chimpanzee]

31. The 14th amendment:

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

...says nothing about being considered a human being or not, just who is considered to be a citizen, so I guess I'm missing your point.

[tedoll78]

32. My point..

is that since fetuses are not included in that group (citizens), they do not fall under the protection of the law. In other words, they have no rights - including no right to life, as the fundies often like to claim.

The majority considered including this reasoning in the original Roe decision, but they decided that it was unnecessary.

[Yupster]

33. Because they aren't citizens ...

they have no rights?

:shrug:

[tedoll78]

34. Exactly.

In order to have rights under the US Constitution, one must be either "born or naturalized." A fetus is neither.

Yes, it sounds callous. And the callousness of this logic was another reason for why it was left out of Roe. But, all emotion aside, it's true.

[Yupster]

36. So if you have a green card, you

have no right to life?

" know I killed him your honor, shot him right in the head, but you see, he's a Mexican -- not a citizen at all, so he has no right to life doncha see."

This argument just doesn't do much for me. I'm glad the Supreme Court rejected it.

[tedoll78]

38. Well..

at that point, international treaties come into the picture. I'm not very familiar with that area of the law. It's probably a UN thing.

Now, when you say that it doesn't "do much for you," do you mean on a logical level, or an emotional one?

[Yupster]

41. Logically

If someone says that unless a person is a citizen they have no right to life, I can just scratch my head and say with maybe 10 million non-citizens in the country the person making such a statement has got to be one very screwed up thinker. No offense. It's just not logical.

[Chimpanzee]

45. So I can go out and kill any non-citizen in the US?

If you're on vacation from the UK or Japan, I should be able to kill you with no consequences? That's what you are saying, and the law against murder in the US covers non-citizens. Rights and laws are two different things.

[LoZoccolo]

26. I can imagine they'd say "no" since that's a dog or something. n/t

[Chimpanzee]

28. cute puppy!

[AuntPatsy]

35. Just use a picture of one of the thousands of young children

that have been slain in the idiot's war for world domination, they are human after all even if they do live in a different country...

What a joke these people are, they could care less how many die in an unjust war yet go ballistic about unborns?

[Deja Q]

37. Looks like a puppy... but while I am pro-life, I'm also socially aware to

know that pro-choice is the only answer.

[charlie]

42. Cute little bugger

Kinda weird how they all look like photo negatives the first few weeks.

[Ms_Mary]

44. I am personally pro-life and I'll tell you what I think

I do not support anti-abortion legislation. Abortion is a tough issue for me but I won't pretend I deserve to make somebody else's decision. It's not my business. Abortion has always existed and it's not going away. It's a waste of energy and a source of division to protest it.

What I want to see is:

*An end to abstinence only education, for which Bush has tripled funding

*Easy access to birth control and education to help prevent unwanted pregnancy

*A more supportive social system. We need to stop pointing fingers and start try to make improvements.

[Chimpanzee]

46. Then you are really pro-choice

I mean we are all pro-life I hope. It really comes down to being anti-abortion vs. pro-choice. Like you, I am not 'pro-abortion' and I don't think any of us are. I would hope a person would not feel the need to resort to abortion, but I believe that abortion should remain an option for women, in consultation with their doctors, and if they feel the need to consult with their 'God', that's just fine with me.

[Ms_Mary]

47. Politically, yes. Personally, no.

[Chimpanzee]

50. And that is the point! Thank you...

[StopThief]

48. That's a cute puppy. . . .

What breed is it?