Didn't people on this board state all the things that the Democratic

[othermeans]

Leadership now laments that they did not listen to?

Some Democrats don't favor abortion-quite a number of these were flamed.

Some Democrats like guns- and didn't like being characterized as nuts.

A great number of Democrats are people of committed faith some even are evangelicals-Catholics who were flamed because of pedophile priests.

Its not a morals issue its a respect issue

[Trajan]

1. Let's become them ...

so they will like us ....

(But will they ?????? ...)

[othermeans]

3. Do you really believe that people who like guns should not be allowed to

be Democrats? Or do you really think that we can win the next election by being stridently anti-gun?

[Cheswick2.0]

5. I like Guns

And I am pro-gun control. If I am not planning on mudering someone in the next 20 minutes why do I need to get a gun on demand at a gun show?

[Trajan]

13. Laughs ...

What a silly twist that is ...

"DO you really believe that those who like guns should NOT be allowed to be Democrats?" ....

WHERE the HELL did you get that idea ? ... You have obviously twisted my statement into me 'not wanting' those who 'like guns' to be Democrats ....

Firstly: the policy of the Democratic Party is RATIONAL gun regulation, which all rational citizens should embrace ... The strawman argument that the "Democrats are going to grab yer guns" is nonsensical, and purely false ...

The last time the Demcrats were 'stridently' 'anti gun' was in the 80's, after reagan was shot ... the AWB wasnt 'stridently' anti gun, and was supported even by most moderates ...

Furthermore: ... There is NO guarantee that IF the Democrats suddenly became the SUPER DUPER Gun Rights party, that there would be a surge of voters from the GOP to the Democrats anyways .... pure speculation ...

We are DIFFERENT from the GOP because we DISGAREE with them, and hence we want to STAY different from them ... You apparently cannot see through their lies and strawmen ... and are now arguing to 'become them' ..

[othermeans]

18. I don't think that you get the gist of the original post. The DLC is

already saying that they missed the point on many issues that motivated voters to vote for Bush. But talk about strawman! I never said anybody should be given a gun on demand. I think if you are having a discussion ( I can see how this is rapidly devolving into an argument) one should address the issue.

[Sleepysage]

14. Let's be clear here...

You're positing a bit of a false dichotomy. It's not as simple as pro-gun/anti-gun. I'm not against people having guns. I'm against unregulated access to them. That's not the same as being anti-gun.

[Ernesto]

20. IMHO a gun nut is one that buys into the

"they want take your gons away" mythology that is so skillfully broadcast by the NRA.... Kinda like the "the Dems are going to take your bibles away" crap floated by the pukes last month.
PS, I own a Colt .45 automatic similar to the one I had in Nam.

[htuttle]

2. Russ Feingold took many, many WI counties that Kerry did not

Many in Northern Wisconsin apparently voted for Feingold and Bush.

Russ Feingold is unapologetically pro-choice, pro-gun control, and is a Jew who's very concerned about keeping church and state separated.

How does that fit in?

[othermeans]

6. I would think it fits in nicely. The Republicans painted Senator Kerry

as anti-gun and in favor of late term abortions. The fact that Senator Feingold received those votes shows that many of the rural voters felt he identified with him and his values.

[htuttle]

8. That's exactly how Tim Michaels 'painted' Feingold

Why didn't it work? Everybody here knows how Russ feels about the issues, including abortion and gun control. He's never kept it a secret -- in fact he's been known to be just a bit outspoken.

Why did these so-called 'values' matter when they voted for Bush, but these same 'values' didn't matter when the same people voted for Feingold?

[othermeans]

12. Again like I said in the post its not really a values or morals issue

but a respect issue. When the people in rural communities feel that they are painted as nuts or un or under educated I would think that is a respect issue. Additionally religious issues are always a hot button issue. Making light of strongly held religious convictions is IMO a major mistake.

[htuttle]

15. But did Kerry ever "make fun of people's beliefs"? Nope.

I thought you were referring to people on DU when you were talking about that.

Are you saying that insulting posters on DU lost the election for Kerry?

Really?

[othermeans]

19. No. What I'm simply saying is that prior to the election a number

of (what I believe because I take most people at their word) dedicated Democrats expressed differences of opinions with other Democrats (seems to be the way of our party/the strength and the weakness and quite honestly the beauty). I think that ignoring their differences or making light of them only served to aid ( however inadvertently) the Republicans.

[othermeans]

17. I'm not all that familiar with the Wisconsin campaign but wouldn't you

think that Senator Feingold's positions were well established prior to his election.

[oldlady]

7. I've wondered the same thing...

now, here in Liberal-with-a-capital-L Madison I know we loved Russ for his votes against the Iraq Invasion and against the Patriot Act--- but, even here the votes for Kerry & Feingold don't line up. what gives? It can't be accounted for by third-party candidates either. Folks actually voted Bush/Feingold.

[democratreformed]

11. During canvassing here in Arkansas, we were told several times

that the person would be voting Bush/Snyder/Lincoln. Snyder and Lincold are our Dem Senator and Congressman. One even stated a dislike for Lincoln and love of Snyder - figure that one out! The most common stated reason for liking Bush over Kerry was his "morality". I've been kicking myself in the butt for not seeing this coming.

[69KV]

21. Russ Feingold has evolved to a pro-gun-rights position

...during the past few years.

I don't know if that's the main reason for people voting a split Feingold-Bush ticket. It's most likely the reason is the same reason why Byron Dorgan just got re-elected by a wide margin: He brings home a lot of money for the state.

[htuttle]

24. Been thinking about that

It's more Herb Kohl that stays popular by bringing home the pork -- or the cheese in this case (He's the Dairy industry's sweetheart).

No, I think the reason Russ is/was so popular up North compared to Kerry is not in spite of things like his anti-Iraq-war vote and vote against the PATRIOT act. I think he's popular up there BECAUSE of those votes.

Rural and Northern Wisconsin tend toward paleo-conservatism, seems to me. Isolationist, and definitely against the Government spying on us. But that would be counter-intuitive if one holds to the common wisdom that those positions are 'far left wing'. :shrug:

I think the fact that both Herb and Russ don't accept many corporate campaign donations means a lot, too (Herb finances himself for the most part).

[69KV]

25. Re: "Been thinking about that"

There's a libertarian streak at work among some of the right.

I find it interesting that Coburn, the far-right loony who just got elected in Oklahoma, campaigned against the Patriot Act during his campaign.

Russ Feingold does have a small following on the right. They like him for the same reasons they like Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan - anti-war, anti-Patriot Act. I'm not in any way saying that Feingold is right-wing himself, he's clearly an old-school liberal in the Bob LaFollette mold.

But that really doesn't explain why those same people would vote for Bush. Bush is the very antithesis of everything Russ Feingold stands for. In the context of the right, the totalitarian Bush is at the opposite end of the right from the libertarian Ron Paul.

So I don't know how much of the Bush-Feingold ticket splitters really did so because of Feingold's principled stands, versus his bringing home a lot of money for the district.

[Cheswick2.0]

4. No one favors abortion

can you please explain to me how that is inconsisant with being pro-choice?
People get flamed for being anti-choice because they want to make moral and medical decisions for the rest of us.

Sorry, that is one issue there will be NO COMPROMISE on.

[othermeans]

9. I'm sorry but I don't think I said that. I said some Democrats don't

favor abortions.

[Warpy]

10. Well, let's do this one thing at a time

For those of us who remember what it was like before Roe v Wade, reproductive rights are not a negotiable issue. If you don't like abortion, then by all means don't choose to have one. It's as simple as that. If you think that's a flame, perhaps you need to consider why.

There is a huge difference between a responsible gun owner and a gun nut. I think the threads I've read on these boards have indicated that most of us know the difference.

Most Democrats are Christians, as distinguished from the narrow, nasty, Armageddon-wishing, Paulist, Calvinist, intolerant people who vote for Bush without thinking about any of the larger implications of doing that or of how it may run opposite to the teachings of Christ.

All three of these points really are morals issues. The first is about respecting another person's right to make a choice about a life changing event. The second is about accepting responsibility for exercising an important right without putting other people in danger. The third is about choosing whether or not to follow the teachings of Christ, and about how far we should tolerate people who are following the Antichrist.

[othermeans]

16. I think your post was well put but you fail to address the salient point

of my post is that nobody considered the issues raised by Democrats on this board as being important in this election.

[hollowdweller]

22. gun control is a loser issue for the Democrats!

When Gore lost here( WV) in 2000 the pundits said it was due to the Clinton administrations lack of support for the steel industry and coal miners wary of Gore's environmental consciousness. However every person I talked to cited gun control. I know scores of people who vote Republican due to this. A lot of these people voted for Clinton, and then Brady and the AWB passed under Clinton and they felt they made a mistake.

The average male voter is not gonna have an abortion. However a lot of people own guns. This issue is giving the GOP the margin they need to beat us.

Crime rate is at all time lows, we need to get away from this issue and deal with the economy, international relations, and the erosion of our civil liberties.

[Ardee]

23. No No NO NO NO

You have already analyzed the reasons for another democratic debacle and found it to be that they are just not enough like the GOP to win........

I have already analysed the reasons for another democratic debacle and found it to be that they are just not different enough FROM the GOP to win...........

You mischaracterise many stances here at DU and within the party, I wonder why you do that?

[othermeans]

27. Do you know who Donna Brazile is? In a recent forum at the Miami Book

Fair she addressed the issues I and others raised on the DU. Like I said and people continue to mistate the original post, to somehow fit what is their own political thinking, is that people prior to the election were already raising issues which the Republicans made their own.

May I ask you this?

Are you in favor of unlimited gun control? e.g. no guns

Have you ever thought that some closely held religious views of people who differ with you are worthy of investigation or ridicule?

And even though you may be pro-choice do you favor late term abortions?

Again I restate these are not moral issues rather they are respect issues for many Democrats as well as Republicans.

Remeber the Republicans took the rural farm vote, the Catholic vote and the moderate vote-traditionally Democrat blocks.

[Ardee]

29. Of course I know

who Donna Brazile is, and Ive heard her apologies for the abysmal way she ran Gore's campaign, why do you ask? Because she supports your false dichotomy about democrats losing elections?

Not that it matters but here are the answers to your ,IMO, irrelevant questions:

Gun control....I'm a gun owner who believes in sane controls, as do most Americans when polled correctly and scientifically. It is only when they are asked leading questions that your supposed differences emerge.

As an American who believes in the Constitution I support both freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion. I am also someone who does believe and worship, thanks.

Your mention of yet another knee jerk topic, late term abortion...I believe that Bill Clinton said it best, abortions should be safe, legal and rare.The right wing mythos about so-called "late term abortions" is riddled with lies and inaccuracies. They are very rare and only performed when the mother's life is threatened.

The truth about the American people is that we are, in the vast majority, not the way you portray us to be. The road to success for the Democratic Party does not lie in mirroring the right wing Republican rant but in energizing the vast majority of folks who are alienated to the point that they abstract themselves from the election process, in reaching out to people as if they were sane adults not little children needing simple and silly topics on which to focus.

If they can convince you of absurdities they can coerce you into atrocities. Voltaire

[bleedingheart]

26. The GOP draped the wolf Greed in the clothing of the Morality Sheep

and that is what won...that and cheating.

[geomon666]

28. This is...really dumb.

And please let me explain before you go off the deep end.

I don't know of a single Dem that favors abortion. I've never been to a rally and have never seen signs reading "Kill em all!". No one favors abortion. We are in favor of women having the right to choose what she can and can't do with her body. I have to hand it to the nazi right. They took pro-life so the sheeple mentality will automatically look on us as pro-death. But we all know which way is which.

The gun point was already explained perfectly. We don't want to take your guns away. We want to make sure only responsible people have guns. And we want to make sure they can be tracked, so that if a crime is committed, we know the entire history of that gun from the moment it was assembled.

And I'm in no position to talk about religion since I'm an atheist but I will, if your fundie, there's no place for you in this party. This party is for tolerance and acceptance.