Kerry says the Democratic party will never be friends with the NRA!

[billbuckhead]

I watched his announcement about running for POTUS and Commander in Chief today on the aircraft carrier with Georgia war hero and political hero Max Cleland introducing him and and one of the first things Kerry did was to take on the NRA. And they say he has no courage? Gun whores try to say that any regulation of weapons is the third rail of politics brag the NRA goons. (Forgetting Al Gore won more votes than any previous Democrat and won many Republican suburban votes precisely over this issue.) The NRA is one of the most despicable organiztions in America. Karl Roves best friend Grover Norquist is on their board of directors. Charlton Heston and Wayne LaPierre have been in the vanguard of the so-called kulture wars. The NRA's designated "artist" Ted Nugent spews endless racial and sexist bigotry. Yet one of our candidates kneels before this filth and many say he's courageous? But Kerry takes on this scum that brags about it's clout in the Bush administration and many say he's not courageous? REMEMBER THAT FAR MORE INNOCENT AMERICANS DIE FROM WEAK GUN LAWS AND EVEN WEAKER ENFORCEMENT OF THOSE LAWS THAN AL QUEDA OR THE WAR IN IRAQ.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

1. I don't like Dean, but he's right about guns

Let the states handle it. Enforce the laws we have, and Democrats should just *shut up* about gun control - it's not the problem right now. The right to keep and bear arms is just as important as free speech and freedom of religion. Cars kill more people, do something about that. Public transportation?

[billbuckhead]

4. The NRA is like Bill O' Reilly just telling everybody to shut up.

One of our best qualified candidates told the NRA to freep itself today. Another of our best qualified potential candiates said that anyone one who needed to use an assualt rifle so badly should sign up for the miltary. One of our least qualified candidates who never has been in harms way is a NRA whore. WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE ARE WE IF KNEEL TO THIS CHROME GOD DEIFIED BY THE WORST OF THE REPUBLICANS, CRIMINALS AND SOCIOPATHS IN GENERAL AND USED AS ONE OF THE REASONS FOR THE KUTUREWARS BY GROVER NORQUIST, WAYNE LAPIERRE , CHARLTON HESTON,TED NUGENT, AD NAUSEUM?

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. Localizing the Constitution

Dean's way is clearly wrong. If you doubt me, imagine the 1st Amendment handled in the same way.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

30. of course the federal government should enforce our right to keep arms

The federal government has the responsibility to make sure the states don't infringe our right to keep and bear arms, I just think that specific regulation needs to be left to the states.

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. Specific regulation

You mean like specific regulation of the 1st Amendment and all the others. Wouldn't you like to be violating Florida's code against speaking out against the U.S. government right now? Or Kansas' decency code? Or North Carolina's code against discussing controversial material?

[HFishbine]

36. "Or North Carolina's code against discussing controversial material?"

Huh? Wanna run that by me again? I'm concerned I may be violating the law.

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. That was a hypothetical

If you allow the states to run roughshod over the amendments as they see fit, then the 1st Amendment will be the first to go.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

39. strawman

The states can pass regulations, and the federal courts will decide if their laws are infringing upon our freedom to keep and bear arms, just like the system works for all of our Constitution rights.

I think Dean is saying that the US should stop proposing and passing federal gun control laws, and I agree with him.

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. No that is NOT what Dean is saying

He is saying that the wild collection of gun laws we have from coast to coast is OK by him. He is saying that is OK if some jurisdictions like D.C. and NYC limit your ability to get a handgun to the point of impossibility.

Now, apply THAT standard to your freedom of speech and see how you like it.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

45. Dean is running for President, not Congress, not the Supreme Court

Get it? Dean can't repeal or pass state laws, nor can he judge the constitutionality of state laws.

If you want to talk about free speech, let's talk about "intellectual property" laws that allow corporations to prevent us from using certain phrases, reverse engineering software, or sharing music. It seems our freedom of speech is being infringed quite a bit.

[HFishbine]

41. Oh

Gotcha. 'round here, you can never be sure what laws are on the books.

[Chico Man]

42. How many murders did Vermont have due to firearms during Dean's tenure?

Your telling me that Vermont should have the same gun laws as Rhode Island?

[lcordero]

2. I'm Pro-gun rights but...

I have my misgivings about the NRA. I associate them somewhat with the KKK. The far right has their regressive pro-gun rights lobby, I wonder if their is ever going to be a progressive pro-gun rights lobby.

[JohnKleeb]

5. ever since ol Charley Heston took over they went to hell

Ive heard some progressives are pro gun because of civil liberties. Dont know my position on guns now.

[King Bush II]

6. your position

should be legalize bizons!

[JohnKleeb]

10. huh?

Guns arent my big issue my big issue is that of fighting poverty, injustice, and avoiding the rush to war hence I support Kucinich.

[JI7]

13. kucinich got F -

kucinich got an F- from some pro gun group. i was wondering what's with the minus ? isn't F a fail. although i agree with him on this area.

[JohnKleeb]

16. I dont know

Kerry and Kucinich and most of the others are pro gun control. I think its reasonable. Although I think the gun issue may sting a little.

[JI7]

24. yeah, kerry got an F also

i was just wondering why they made it F- as in F minus rather than just an F. what is the difference between getting an F and F-.

[lcordero]

15. I'm pro-gun because of civil liberties, I don't own any

All rights and civil liberties are important to me. I really can't picture saying that I am pro-civil liberties and then turn around and say that I'm anti-gun.

[JohnKleeb]

17. not anti gun either very pro gun safety

[King Bush II]

3. i support

any candidate who makes a change to the assault rifle ban. i just want there to be one exception, the bizon.

check this baby out:

sure it holds 65 bullets, well over the 10 bullet limit, and sure its used by russia's most elite special forces, but its been on my wishlist for a while, and if you guys got me one, your terrorist problem would be over in no time flat ;-)

[WilliamPitt]

14. Tell me that bottom-slung barrel

isn't a grenade launcher...

[DoNotRefill]

26. Nope...

that appears to be the rotary magazine.

[DoNotRefill]

7. Well, that tears it...

if Kerry gets the nomination, we will lose the election. Gun control plays well to certain segments of the left (which is why he's doing it, I'm sure, trying to bolster pathetic numbers for the Democratic primaries), but once you get out to the whole people in a general election, game over.

[onehandle]

8. Yeah. Like that big loser, Bill Clinton. nt

nt

[billbuckhead]

9. Bill Clinton started fighting the NRA, would have beat them if he kept...

his zipper zipped. The Kulture wars did him in. He didn't want to take fault. He's human. Today our candidate with the least ballsy resume kneels before the NRA racist fascist antihumanist homegrown terrorists and many here say it's good, we are scared of them and their threatened terrors. So-called progressives turn our backs on real war heros like Kerry and Clark, turn our backs on heroic politicians like Kucinich and Graham, in order to back some media creation from a state with less problems than a tough school district because Slate magazine says Dean looks more like a war hero? What do we stand for? Sucking up to the NRA and the even more sicko GOA?

[DoNotRefill]

22. Even Big Dog admitted....

that gun control cost Dems votes and seats in congress.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. And cost Gore

his home state.

[mitchum]

11. pro-gun rights and the NRA are two very seperate things...

and I hope Kerry intends to heighten the differences

[blm]

48. BINGO.

Two VERY seperate things. NRA is pure politics and will NEVER back a Democrat over a Republican and will NEVER stay neutral, either.

[DoNotRefill]

53. Not true.

In our local House District, the NRA has a long history of supporting our pro-gun Democratic congressman over even pro-gun Republican opponents. That's why he's still in office. We're talking an actual endorsement by the NRA. I'm pretty sure they threw some fundage his way, too.

The NRA is a one pony show. They work on one and only one issue. If you're for their position, they'll support you. Otherwise, how did Dean end up with the A rating from them? He's no Repuke...

[blm]

55. That doesn't matter.

They'll support a Republican NRA guy over a Dem one. They will NEVER abandon Bush because they also expect to pull up as many progun Republicans lower down on the ticket. And they LOVE Ashcroft. Dean will not give them Ashcroft, so that alone will be reason enough to campaign AGAINST Dean just as much as any other Dem. nominee.

[billbuckhead]

12. Where your proof of this assertion? Arnold's even against guns.

No poll has ever shown this. Every major poll has shown a majority of Americans are for gun regulation and the vast majority of Democrats are also for gun regulation. Even the heavily focus group driven Arnold the Terminator campaign is running on a gun regulation platform. Where's your proof?

[DoNotRefill]

23. Too bad....

they don't vote that way, and the pro-gunners certainly do have a way of kicking anti-gun election seekers in the teeth in much of the country...

Why did Gore lose his home state? TWO WORDS. GUN CONTROL. without that stupid FOID card proposal, Florida wouldn't have mattered.

[tom_paine]

18. While the NRA is a Bushevik arm

and should be treated as such, I don't agree that making gun rights an issue is the way to go. There are much more pressing issues to be addressed first and foremost.

For the moment guns is a bad issue...perhaps a bad idea overall to the level of some gun control advocates.

I also think that, if we were an unarmed nation, that the Busheviks would be MUCH further along in their plans to grind us under their bootheel. But that's just my opinion.

[billbuckhead]

21. So called gun rights is blending into terrorism. Do we need AK47's?

Kalishnikov himself wished he would have invented a lawn mower instead. Do we need 50cal sniper rifles that can destroy planes and pipe lines from miles away? Do we really think the Bush administration is scared of the weapons that are so readily available, the public might be terrorized by them but the misadministration isn't. Gun regulation is a vital part of the real war on terrorism. Ask the sniper victims.

[DoNotRefill]

25. Can you name a SINGLE incident...

where a .50 cal sniper rifle has destroyed a plane or pipeline from miles away? Didn't think so...

You're so anti-gun that you are blind to the political realities. I wouldn't be surprised for you to argue next that we need to ban guns because our kids are fat, and if it weren't for guns, they'd have to run around to kill their supper by hand, giving them much needed exercise. :crazy: :tinfoilhat:

[slackmaster]

27. Y'all ought to come out to Nevada for the next Satellite Shootdown contest

All the 50 caliber shooters in Southern Nevada and half of California will be there.

Here's the Web site of one of our charter members:

http://www.geocities.com/robert_frenchu/guns_50cal.html

[sangh0]

33. NRA propoganda

requires gun nuts to accuse everyone else of wanting to "ban guns because our kids are fat"...

[DoNotRefill]

49. Link?

I don't think that's ever been a NRA "talking point". I made up something that seemed to fit the absurd levels that some are willing to go to to justify our enslavement, oops, I mean our "protection" from guns.

[Punkingal]

19. One line of Kerry's about guns that was great.....

"I'm a hunter, but I have never hunted with an AK47." I thought that was a great line. I come from a family of hunters, and none of them are worried about someone taking their guns away.

[JohnKleeb]

20. hes right

I dont hunt either but I think my grandfather would like it, I am not sure if he really hunts though.

[MrBenchley]

51. Very true...

The NRA and the corrupt gun industry are mostly interested in contrinuing to sell guns to neurotics and criminals unhindered. It's outrageous that the Pirates of Enron believe we should check libraries for terrorist activities but not gun shows.

[Starpass]

32. Yo, guys, appreciate the "political" moment, will you (great ploy)

You see step #1 to the presidency is getting the nomination. Dean has been successful by bragging that he's more Democratic than the others, so to speak. That has brought a lot of people and support. BUT gun control IS one of the bedrock issues of the Democrats and Dean isn't keen on it. Thus, true, blue, Democrats who profess to want to get back to the roots of the party just got thrown "another root" to chew on. In fact two roots: if Dean activitists are all up tight about the blood-on-their-hands war, how can they say it's okay to losen those screwy gun control laws and up the possibility, therefore, of people in our own streets being killed. Oh, and by the way, no god-fearing, self-respecting member of the NRA or gun lover would ever, ever, ever vote for a Democrat even if a, ahh, gun was put to their head. On this one Dean is catering to the wrong crowd----and with him being anti-war on top of it all---six guns to their head wouldn't get them to vote for Dean. I thought it was a great poltical move------------god I love politics!!!!!!!!!

[DoNotRefill]

50. Tell that....

to the blue collar union folks, who also tend to support gun rights. They used to be part of our core, but we've alienated a LOT of them over the gun control issue. Wouldn't it be nice to have them back in the fold?

Gun control is a pretty big source of "single issue voters". By pushing for more gun control, we alienate people who SHOULD and WOULD support us if only we weren't such dickheads on this one issue.

[Brian Sweat]

34. I love guns, but I will have nothing to do with the NRA.

While I love guns and I think that people should have the right to own them, the NRA's positions on common sense gun control are far to extreme for me.

I also think that the NRA has become nothing more than a propaganda wing of the GOP.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. I'd Like To See Some Data

that suggests Dems would win votes by embacing a more pro-gun rights position...

All I hear is that Al Gore lost Montana, West Virginia, and Tennessee because of his anti-gun stance.

Where's the data...

Clinton was the most anti-gun pres in history and he carried those states....

Me thinks Gore lost those states cuz he was perceieved as being on the worong side of the kulturekampf- pro gay rights, pro abortion rights, anti-creationism and prayer in school. Being pro-gun is part of a larger cluster of values. Of course there are anomalous cases of progressive folks being pro gun as there are anomalous cases of progressive folks being anti-choice.

For the record you can have as many guns as you like as long they are registered.... I'm not a big gun fan cuz the only time I went hunting was with some good old boy who slammed down his rifle and it accidentially discharged missing my friend's noggin by mere inches.

[slackmaster]

37. Here's some anecdotal data for you

What people in most states think: That the right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental civil liberty. A significant majority of states (almost 3/4 of them) have adopted "shall-issue" laws for concealed weapons permits. Vermont has never required a permit, and Alaska just adopted a Vermont-style system:



Advocacy for stronger gun control is concentrated heavily in a few urban areas. Advocacy for gun registration is concentrated nowhere in particular; it's a losing idea.

My evil shadow will suddenly show up in this thread blame the trend toward recognition of the right to carry on co-option of more than 30 states' legislatures by the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. Believe that at your own risk - It's exactly what the VRWC wants you to think.

I see any trend toward enhanced individual liberty and freedom of choice as progressive as long as it does not introduce danger to the population. Most of these states have strong safeguards against that happening: The people who are most likely to commit crimes with guns are ineligible to get a permit.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. That's Interesting But Raises More Questions

How do we get to the right of Republicans on this issue. I'm all for compromises with the electorate but after too many compromises you look like a phony...

Also, I'd like to see data that asks the "if" question to *voters


If Gore would have supported gun rights would you have voted for him

[slackmaster]

44. We don't need to get to the right of anyone on this issue

Simplify the existing Democratic party platform so it doesn't call for anything specific yet somehow vague in the way of restrictions, e.g. "mandatory trigger locks" whatever the fuck that means, and pre-pend it with plank that says "The Democratic Party recognizes and values the right to keep and bear arms." Add a "The Democratic Party supports gun safety education." or some other bone to show we care about the children, and be done with it!

[billbuckhead]

46. These are also areas of poor education and fundie religion

The better educated areas of the country and world are against promiscuous gun laws. Civilization is the key to freedom and liberty not steel killing utensils.

[slackmaster]

47. Believe the stereotypes at your own risk

There are plenty of centers of higher learning and advanced culture in the "blue" states on that map.

Progress of civilization does not mean ever-increasing restrictions on peoples' personal liberty. In a truly civilized society it wouldn't matter if everyone was armed all the time. The problems are caused by uncivilized INDIVIDUALS.

[DoNotRefill]

52. I think you'll find the people on this board....

about evenly divided on the gun control issue. Many long-time posters refuse to post on the subject, due to the vitriolic tactics used by the anti-gunners.

If there's so much support for the RKBA on here, how can the position be considered anomalous for progressives? We're evenly divided.

[Kolesar]

54. "Yet one of our candidates kneels before this filth ..."

Oh, please stop. Hyperbole from people like you is pushing me into the Dean camp.