Are we as a society in the decline?

[secedeeconomically]

Just a though. But have we peeked as a collection of people? I mean has this republic reached the point where we are really nothing more that a fake representation of a democratic country. Just like the Roman and Greeks before us, we cannot live on past results. And frankly speaking I’m not that optimistic about the future as this society. We as individuals might or might not be impacted as we balance work and family commitments. However, inevitably that bubble will burst and what will happen then. Will we stand for anything or will we be just a flock of sheep that the government thinks we are? And we all know what happens to sheep.

Just some food for though.

[puddycat]

1. A woman told me yesterday that ours was the greatest civilization on Earth

And she didn't like my response. I told her that we were the greatest military power, but that doesn't translate into greatest civilization. A truly great civilization wouldn't deny half of their citizens adequate health care. A truly great civilization wouldn't applaud material success over all other criteria. A truly great civilization wouldn't be arrogant and conduct unnecessary war against the rest of the planet.

We have to find a way to get 51% of America who are selfish war-mongerers to start looking hard at what they've become--because it isn't American.

[GreenPartyVoter]

8. Your answer was right on target, though.

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[amber dog democrat]

11. Do you remember what Gandhi said when asked what he

thought about Western Civiization ?
" It would be a great idea. "
American Civilization is just another imperial myth. They come and go.
Ours will too.

[puddycat]

20. the sad thing is, it didn't have to be that way. we lost our way

[KurtNYC]

15. I like that

I want to use the same lines just substituting the word "moral" for the word "great" (since that is the debate they allegedly want to have). It would go something like this:

A truly moral civilization wouldn't deny half of their citizens adequate health care. A truly moral civilization wouldn't applaud material success over all other criteria. A truly moral civilization wouldn't be arrogant and conduct unnecessary war against the rest of the planet.

[puddycat]

17. Glad you like my response! feel free to re-use the words.

[PATRICK]

2. Sank like a stone

In presumptions of Earthly Paradise- by people with a fanatical opposite vision. We always were an unwon democracy. Democracy was passed off as dialectic between opposing points of view, not an unfinished revolution.

Slavery and the American revolution- Fundamental failure put off as the regional divide grows anyway.
The Civil war- scars deepened for revenge and profit. Blacks pushed off eventually.
WWII and the new Deal- fascist betrayal by business ignored, ex-Nazis brought on board, imitation of Joe Stalin's KGB.

The list goes on and "imperfect" Democracy is as dubious as any Utopian vision. Every lie serves THE lie. massive Depression? Total Defeat in War? Culture prone to ethnic cleansing or easy manipulation? What are the excuses except for the moronic elite rewarded constantly by the myth?

An experiment ground down to bitter shame for the human race. For no reason we slid into the ancient evils as functional slaves and collaborators in our destruction. WORSE- humanity itself suffers immensely because of us.

Lost and whistling in the dark, leading the way.

[hatrack]

3. We are Rome in about 215 AD

The Republic is long gone.

Corruption and venality have crept into every corner of government and business.

The militarization of most phases of life proceeds apace, while masses of citizens ("consumers" as they're now called) divert themselves with bread and circuses underwritten by the state.

The end isn't nigh, but you can see it from here.

[stanwyck]

18. The similarities are stunning

we're wasting our resources on foreign wars. We're neglecting our populace's real needs of gainful employment and healthcare with petty diversions.
The EU is becoming a major competitor in manufacturing, agriculture, and science. There is less need for what we're selling.
And members of the EU aren't straddled with our high cost of the military industrial complex. We must engage in war in order to sustain and pacify our greedy corporate masters.
We've lost the respect of the people of the world.
We are most definitely a nation in decline.

[trof]

4. We're a society in recline.

Hand me the remote, will ya?
Don't want to get up.
;-)

[tmooses]

5. We just re-elected someone because of his regressive moral views...

How can we be a society not in decline when we are reminded by our leaders how we should live our lives in fear. We have turned from a country of intellectually curious to dogmatically regressive people. Only 10% of the population even reads the newspapers and most of the people spend their evenings watching mindless entertainment on TV. The true sign of a society in decline is when they resort to nationalism
to perpetuate themselves. We are now led by those who lead by fear, misinformation and anti-intellectualism. Does that ring true to any historical analogies you can think of?

[amber dog democrat]

6. Yes

I thnk this has been happening for some time. Maybe there never was a real consensus on what constituted American society to begin with. I have been reflecting for years on how the Western Roman Empire limped along for centuries after the sack of Rome in 455 AD. People still traded, grew crops, and lived as well as could be managed even in the death throes.

The difference is there is much at stake regarding environemental circumstances that affect the entire planet - and we are too stupid to see this, fostering myths of the continuity of our way of life - and seeking ways to maintain non sustainable levels of consumption.

I only fear things are going to get worse. By that time pressing emergencies and vested interests will trump any vestigal value we place on civil liberties and human rights.

These are interesting times.

[tjwash]

7. We are the Soviet Union circa 1989.

Crushing debt, religious intolerance, a horribly corrupt one party system of government, in and out of wars around the globe, a bought and paid for by the government media...

[Gregorian]

9. The ignorant and the greedy bring the good down.

Edit- this seems a bit confusing. What I meant to say is that until people know the truth about what they are doing, they will be doomed to do what people tell them to do. And if those people are members of a Bush dynasty that is greedy, then that spells the end of democracy. Below, I use an example of not knowing the end results of consuming. I'm not sure I'm getting my message across that this also applies to voting, and news, and just being a good nation in general...

And then there's entropy. Things are not permanent. BUT, with the discovery of petroleum, combined with this huge population of people on the planet, the activity is greatly increased. With this population, there is nothing we can do, now. But even that is temporary. So let me back up and explain what I mean, even though it's meaningless now. When I say ignorance, I mean knowledge of the affects of one's actions. For example, someone wants a house. It's just a house. Or is it? I remember seeing my first house being built in 1959. Many years later, when rebuilding that same house, I found redwood beams inside the walls. I had no thoughts about it. But it wasn't too long ago that I moved to redwood territory. Suddenly I discovered just where those redwood beams came from. And having seen the ruination of this once beautiful place, I can no longer buy redwood. Or I cannot buy it without serious considerations. But people don't know. They don't know that what comes out the exhaust pipe is poison. It's partly because they can't or don't invision billions of repititions of that same exhaust pipe. It's not just me. It's us. It used to be me until we reached a critial population. Now it's billions, and it has taken on a life of it's own, as evidenced by the ozone layer and the polar caps melting. Now republicans can deny it all they want, but there is one thing they can't bullshit, and that's nature. You can't spin nature. That's what we're up against. And that's what the Iraq aggression is all about. We're running out of resources. To me, it's as simple as being considerate of your neighbors. So if you throw in those who are ignorant with those who just don't care, you've got a recipe for disaster. This problem of the dumbing down of democracy is no different than what has happened to our once beautiful cities. What was once beautiful, is now a 7-11 surrounded by cars and concrete. And what was designed by radically intelligent and thoughtful pioneering politicians, has become Fox, and fraud, and money grubbing Bush lovers.

I don't have hope. But at least I have company now.

[puddycat]

21. Yes, Iraq is all about $$$$$

With all the scientific minds and creativity we possess we could find all sorts of replacements for oil based fuels. The industrialists which have been the real power in the government since WWII don't want replacements--the people behind these businesses are greedy and lazy, and their wealth depends on WAR. Our military, since the end of WWII, has existed mainly to service greedy super-rich white men in their never-ending quest for more power and wealth.

[Selwynn]

10. Wow - you just now got the memo? :)

[secedeeconomically]

12. Some more thoughts.

I believe very few individuals immigrated to the US during the 19th century, as well as today for that matter, out of the need to be free. They, as my parents did almost 30 years ago (I just followed along lol) was out of economic necessity. Therefore, what we have today is the ultra rich, who for the most part like the static quo (Soros excluded), varying scales of the middle class (my self included), the working poor and the immigrant class that work harder than all 3 classes put together. So you ask yourself, "What’s my point?". My point is that the driving forces of this country are innovation and greed and both usually go hand-in-hand. Don’t get me wrong, I wont lie and claim I detest greed. I like 100% of people, to a varying degree, whether they admit it or not are greedy. And greed to certain extend is healthy I believe. It drives you to get up in the morning. But, once the outside world stops believing this is a fair playing ground, where your greed will be rewarded then we are in really trouble. Would anyone go to Vegas if they thought all the games were fixed? And what I’m afraid is happening to this country that everything is being "Fixed" and "Rigged". You can’t play the game if you know that you have no shot at winning. And that the real danger is occurring in the USA. We cannot trust any of the institutions that in the past facilitated in our desire to make a better life.

[Steven Writer]

13. Go camping

Go camping, and I don't mean in an RV, or even with electricity for that matter.

Go camping for a weekend, and you will quickly realize how much of your "Stuff" you can do without.

If a person didn't need, a cell phone, answering machine, caller-id, laptop, broadband, Sat TV, and a special applience for each meal your going to prepare, (waffle maker, straining pasta pot, Foreman grill for burgers, bread maker, and special coffee makers for Expresso, drip, and and the new coffee house kind) a person would not have to work as much, and have more money.

Once all this crap is bought, you have to get a bigger house.

Compare this with our parents generation.
I'm 40 and my parents grew-up without any of thoes things, (and all they've bought since then is the waffle maker) I have a 3000 SQFT house and its full. My parents still live in the same 1300 SQFT house they bought 40 yrs ago.

since they don't have all this crap to consume their time and money, (and work less to maintain all the crap and larger house) they are free to get more involved in the community.

All of the "Stuff" also tends to have us looking more inward, and not getting involved with our community. Its gotten so bad, that we prefer to sit infront of or TV to view "Reality" rather than go out the door to experience it.

Having said all of that, I think people are working harder than ever, just in the wrong direction and for the wrong things.

I think most of the blame belongs in advertizing. One, for telling us we need all the crap, and the other telling us we shouldn't try to do things by ourselves.

Adding an electrical outlet is a prime example of this. home wiring only involves 3 wires, and the ground and the white both connect to the same place, and get stuck into the ground. only the black wire has any power, but if you listen to some, only a specialist can connect thoes three wires.

I could ramble all day, but I stop now.

[elsiesummers]

23. Lack of self reliance relates to snobbery/consumerism/service economy.

I agree that I am constantly amazed at how many (most) people don't do anything for themselves and instead call in an "expert".

I live in a NY coop and am quite the annomoly in that we are installing our own cabinets, etc. I'm always a bit nervous about when they'll say we can't do something ourselves, but I keep going until I hear no (though I'll contract out the plumbing just to appease the board).

When we lived in PA I found that about two houses of neigbors per city block would even do something as simple as install their own air conditioner. You do always have a couple of diligent do it yourselfers who will build anything themselves, but they are the exception, not the rule.

Haircuts are another thing that people rarely do themselves or trade within the household.

Lawn services are a form of snobbery - a way to prove you can pay someone and are above manual labor - then pay a gym fee and rush off to exercise while someone else does the landscaping.

The expense of hiring out so much is immense. It's no wonder our society is debt laden.

[noonwitch]

14. I do think we are on the verge of a cultural revolution

If the right uses the FCC to crack down on big entertainment, then I predict an explosion in independent movies and small label music.

So much current pop music is derivative. I get really sick of hearing covers of songs from the 80s-I can't believe that a band is covering The Cure's "Love Song"! Or that song by Train that appeared to rip off Slash's guitar theme from "Estranged".

Then Prince reinvents himself and releases a brilliant cd like "Musicology", and I feel like there really is something good afoot in our cultural wasteland. There is a semi-classical revival going on, with success for artists like Josh Groban, Sarah Brightman and Andreao Bocelli recording classic/pop mixes. Elvis Costello released a classical composition recently. World Music is getting more popular. Rap, although not my music, has the revolutionary language that appeals to activist youth and is a major part of youth culture. Lucinda Williams is finally getting the attention she deserves, combining country, blues and rock to create her own sound.

So, let the Bush administration crack down on "decency standards". The independent labels will flourish.

[2Design]

22. I don't see much on tv worth watching - I rent videos and

most of what comes out in films to me is a waste
I don't watch violent movies
the only cop show I watch is Sue Thomas FBI and this season they have put a little too much religion drippings - so that may go

the only medical show I watch is Doc and again the religion drippings are getting to be too much

I don't like looking at blood and guts and violence
I have never seen a Arnold film and hope never to see one

the violence in films and tv and videos games is why this countries trained killers can go to europe and be so detached as they blow up people from a mile away -

hollywood puts out some good stuff but they put out a lot of junk

the reality shows are the pitts in my mind

apprentice was good last year but this year it is awful

not much on

[xchrom]

16. nail on the head

personally -- i think it begins from not recognizing the truth about the beinnings of our country -- we built it on stolen resources and slave labour.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. Sociatally, culturally, economically, and as a nation.

We are following in the well trod footsteps of every other empire in decline - we're just speeding up the process.

Now we're just trying to hold it together by brute force.

Never has worked, but the bigshots, from Xerxes to Hitler to Bush, never learn.