The Troops.

[sleipnir]

Where do you stand after the election?

Trying to get a hand on how people now stand on the "Support the Troops" meme.

I'm for #3, just for the record.

[RummyTheDummy]

1. You left out "It's not my problem"

That' where I am right now.

[Qanisqineq]

2. well, just found out tonight that my husband is going back sooner

than he was told (after he was blackmailed into reenlisting). So, since he didn't vote for Bush and his friends didn't vote for Bush, I'm not going to assume all the troops voted for Bush.

[puttothesword]

128. canada is really pretty this time of year.

*hint*hint*

in fact, there are a few military folks up there trying for refugee status.

[The Minus World]

3. Interesting.

I'd be surprised if any right-wing bloggers pick this poll up and post the results. It tends to disagree with their general misconception that we hate the troops and hate America.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LynnTheDem]

5. I'm NOT AT ALL for the invasion & occupation of Iraq, and the troops who

are guilty of committing war crimes are GUILTY of committing war crimes, orders or not, stress or not, anger or not, and should be held accountable right up the chain of command to dickface.

But NOT ALL our troops are running around committing war crimes, not even most of them. And those troops I support.

And if you REALLY give a fuck about our troops you DO NOT SEND THEM TO DIE FOR BULLSHIT LIES, and you DO NOT SILENCE ANY & ALL DEBATE BEFORE SENDING THEM TO ANY WARS. THEIR LIVES ARE FUCKING WORTH DISCUSSION FIRST YOU WARMONGERING BASTARD RIGHTWINGNUTS!!! BRING OUR TROOPS HOME RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!!

[hinachan]

153. Don't be shy, Lynn, tell us what you think!

:D

For the record, I agree with you...I would also say that the sight of all those troops cheering as states turned red made me think, "Fuck you!"

The troops who don't support Bush should just go AWOL...if enough people did this, the system would be overwhelmed. And if they are, in theory, prepared to die for freedom...shouldn't they be prepared to face criminal charges for doing the right thing? I mean, if protesters do, why shouldn't the troops who are against this particular war?

Food for thought....

[bling bling]

6. #3

My husbands brother is over there right now. He came home earlier this year for few days and spent the better part of his time drunk and/or passed out from drinking. I support him but I don't have to support the war and I don't have to support the man that sent him there under false pretenses. I know in my heart that * would never fight in this war under any circumstances if he were not the President. Neither would his sidekick "deferment-Dick."

[dpt223]

7. They're mostly confused kids. n/t

[donheld]

31. You are right

You can't expect an 18 year old to stand up to bushie if the senior officers aren't showing them the right way. The kids are in need of our support. It's the Generals, Colonels etc that need to stand up to bushie.

[JSJ]

8. the troops ain't right in the head (better?)

[Qanisqineq]

9. maybe you should clarify by adding "some troops"

[JSJ]

10. let the innocent ones come forward and exclaim their opposition...

...otherwise they're all guilty.

[LynnTheDem]

11. They're either FOR US or AGAINST us, huh.

You have the same black/white worldview as bush.

Interesting.

Very WRONG.

But interesting.

[JSJ]

13. i don't care if the troops are for me or against me- this isn't about me..

...or any other American luxuriating back home. It is, however, completely about the acts of murder they, the troops, commit on a daily basis. You okay with that?

[LynnTheDem]

18. But they're ALL BAD to you.

And do you also think ALL BLACKS can dance?

ALL JEWS are wealthy?

No?

But ALL TROOPS are murderers, you say.

And is my husband included in your broad sweeping generalization?

And all the troops now drafted?

You don't know JACK SHIT, sir. Not a damn fucking thing.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JSJ]

34. yes, less emotion ESPECIALLY when you're being challenged

[LynnTheDem]

You're very condescending

especially when you're being challenged to defend your biased ignorant sweeping generalizations.

[JSJ]

38. i hadn't thought i was defending anything- thought i was attacking...

...the troops. You're playing defense pretty hard, though.

[LynnTheDem]

44. And YOU are attacking ALL our troops pretty hard, though.

YOU, sir, are a shameful disgrace..

[JSJ]

46. and i will continue to do so until they stop killing kids in iraq/afhan

[Columbia]

103. I served in Iraq

What do you think of me?

[JSJ]

106. have you genuinely atoned, yet?

[Columbia]

110. For what?

[JSJ]

112. you tell me

[Columbia]

113. How am I supposed to answer a question you haven't asked?

[JSJ]

115. again- have you genuinely atoned, yet?

[Columbia]

117. Again - for what?

Have some guts now. Go ahead and ask me what you mean to ask.

[JSJ]

118. you tell me, if you can

[Columbia]

119. I would if there were such a thing

Is that all you've got?

[JSJ]

121. either you were way in the rear or way in denial

[Columbia]

123. If believing that makes you feel better, go ahead

[JSJ]

125. you're not very forthcoming on your adventures in iraq

[Columbia]

126. What do you expect when you only ask vague questions

[JSJ]

129. you were there- give some specifics

[Columbia]

132. Ask a specific question

And I will do my best to give a specific answer.

[JSJ]

134. your job?

[Columbia]

135. Civil Affairs

[alwynsw]

141. Civil affairs?

Small wonder you're so incredibly civil in this uncivil exchange.

heh heh heh

[JSJ]

142. the slaughter of iraqis is quite uncivil, is it not?

[Columbia]

144. Ouch

I'm a slaughterer now huh? You pretend to know me so well, yet we've only exchanged a handful of posts. If only you could walk a mile in my boots perhaps you would not be so small-minded.

[JSJ]

145. your job was to support the mission, yes? like all personell in

...theater. Then... you supported slaughter. Very civil, that.

[Columbia]

146. My job was to save lives

Of all parties.

[JSJ]

148. horseshit! armed forces don't do that- especially ours

[Columbia]

167. And where do you get your knowledge of the armed forces from?

Did you serve?

[JSJ]

170. irrelevent, irrelevent, irrelevent- first, i'm an informed citizen, then..

...I listen to the troops and filter it with my knowledge of the world, make the necessary adjustments for the self-serving lies they tell, then, I have enough information to form a base of real understanding. After all, I'm beating your asses. Oh, you wanted to think only troops have an edge on the knowledge of the things they do. Forget it, the troops' actions and motivations should be crystal clear to anybody with his head screwed on right and tight.

[Columbia]

173. Citizen, you may be. Informed, you decidedly are not

You claim to be "beating asses." Is this a game to you? How old are you? You claim to be well-informed, yet it seems like the only information that gets past your "filter" are the ones that already fit in your predetermined worldview. The only thing that is truly crystal clear here is your bigotry against the military.

[JSJ]

174. am, too- you, on the other hand have offered nothing but weak...

... rationalizations. I would probably do the same if I were you and had done what any 'good' US troop had done.

[Columbia]

175. Grow up

I've responded to your smears, which is much more than you deserve. Go to sleep, kid, it's a school night after all. I'm through with this thread.

[JSJ]

177. you grow up, soldier- you've got nothing but fairy tales and fluff...

...to tell the next generation of troops. Bad, bad, bad.

[Columbia]

180. Ok, one last thing, for real

Ok, two things...

#1 - I'm not a soldier.

#2 - Rush Limbaugh thanks you for the material.

[JSJ]

181. so sorry- you are 'through w/ this thread'- good cheer to ya'!

[Columbia]

143. Yeah well...

I think I used up most of my piss and vinegar in my first 1000 posts. :)

[JSJ]

147. okay!

[alwynsw]

137. Here's a specific question.

Are you aware that many of us are thankful for your service? Regardless of who sits in the WH, those who serve do so for all of us.

Let me see if a former wing wiper can get this right.

SEMPER FI!

[Columbia]

139. Semper Fi!

Today is the Marine Corps birthday too.

Happy birthday Marines!

(And yes, I am aware :) )

[JSJ]

140. awh, that's sweet, jar

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

90. So......

.....would you respect them if they just sacrificed their life on the battlefield, refusing to shoot at those that shoot at them?

[alwynsw]

96. Here's what I think of your opinion of the troops in Iraq/Afganistan

[geek tragedy]

158. Count me in too.

[leftynyc]

190. Me too eom

[T Town Jake]

14. I entirely concur, and for likely the same reasons. (n/t)

[Qanisqineq]

15. nice, very nice

my husband is innocent but he can't come forward without suffering the repercussions. Call him a chicken, a coward, a scaredy-cat, or what you will, but you haven't walked in their shoes. I could line up so many more soldiers for you that are against this war and against Bush. Yes, they served in Iraq but that doesn't make them killers or war criminals or rapists or pervs or disturbed.

The ones you see on TV or read in articles saying "yeah, I get an adrenaline rush off of killing people" -- their words are either controversial or have entertainment value and of course are printed. Speaking out is not allowed, and do you really think the US media would actually put something like that on the air with the administration we have? My husband, while in Iraq and even lately with his "homeland security training" is given a piece of paper with what is acceptable to say in front of the media and what is not.

It's like someone seeing your post on DU and automatically assuming all DU'ers are "guilty" of thinking like you do.

[JSJ]

17. i've talked w/every troop i can who's been there and they're...

...all, without exception, for their fuhrer- and oh so proud of their kills. I live in a two military reservation town, so there's no surfeit of dickheads in these parts. Sorry about your hub.

[Qanisqineq]

24. I live on a military post next to a town

with two air force bases and an air force academy.

I'm sorry you have only experienced shitheads but quit making sweeping generalizations. Maybe, just maybe, the ones that are seriously against Bush and this war ARE NOT TALKING? Maybe they are disturbed by it all and are keeping it inside because they are not yet ready to talk.

Oh, and I do know a couple that brag about their kills. But guess what... THEY HAVEN'T KILLED A SINGLE FUCKING SOUL. My husband has said he has known many guys like this throughout his military career -- the ones that actually kill do not brag (but there are exceptions to every rule) and the braggers HAVE NEVER KILLED.

[JSJ]

27. please read the intl news- the troops are killing civilians & kids

Deliberately! Reporters and aid workers, too.

[Qanisqineq]

30. and yet you lump ALL troops

all 130,000 troops over there -- about 350,000 (a guesstimate) total have served in Iraq in the last 1.5 years -- they are ALL doing this.

[JSJ]

yes, either directly or in supporting jobs

[Qanisqineq]

37. you are clueless

and it is impossible to argue with someone that hasn't a clue.

I don't support every troop, I don't support this war, nor did my husband. But you are just being ridiculous. Almost laughable if you weren't using such cruel words to describe a huge number of people.

[JSJ]

41. no basis for calling me clueless- is that all you got, now?

[Qanisqineq]

45. no, but you prove my point

you call every single person from a certain group a "murderer". Just because you act smug doesn't mean you are correct. You call us biased because...? What, we KNOW more troops? We have a more personal relationship with them and know what they truly feel, what they are not allowed to say to most people?

[JSJ]

48. do what?!

[Qanisqineq]

51. do I need to speak more clearly?

[JSJ]

53. yes, you need to dump the emotional stuff- are you biased for the...

...the troops, too?

[Qanisqineq]

56. apparently I do

or you have a short memory. I'm sure you will call me biased because my husband is a soldier. I'm sure you will call me biased because I have relatives that are doctors in the military. However, I did say that I do not support the "bad seeds". There are some in every group of people. I do not support many of the officers that I've met. I do not support the troops' Commander in Chief.

Do I support the troops in general? Yes. I realize they are in a position you and I cannot identify with. I tend to believe in innocent until proven guilty. It is obvious you do not.

[JSJ]

58. the children of iraq, made dead by the troops, received no trials to...

...determine their guilt or innocence. Sure, I can identify w/ the troops- I've done shameful things in my life, too. Killing kids wasn't one of them, though.

[Qanisqineq]

60. but wanting the troops to come home doesn't mean supporting killing kids

in Iraq; supporting Bush does.

I'm just really sorry you don't see the distinction.

[JSJ]

62. wanting them to come home is one thing- failing to keep them from...

...enlisting and going is another. Are you feeling a bit guilty, yourself? For your failure to avert the deaths of the Iraqis your hub had a hand in dispatching? Or, were you a gung ho military spouse before the troops gave themselves a bad name, and have only come to the conclusion, lately, that that crap won't fly no more?

[Qanisqineq]

63. my husband killed no one

I have nothing to feel guilty about and neither does he. He enlisted a decade ago and could do NOTHING about going to Iraq. Don't believe me? Educate yourself. He was moved from one military base to another, less than one week after arriving he was told he was going to Iraq and WAS NOT ALLOWED TO LEAVE THE BUILDING HE WAS TEMPORARILY STAYING IN. UNDER LOCK AND KEY AND GUARDED. As for the "gung ho" shit-- no, I never have been and never will be. I have been a lifelong democrat and have always been anti-war. It just so happens that I fell in love with someone in the military.

You really take the cake. Accusing me of supporting this illegal war? Accusing my husband of killing innocent civilians? Who do you think you are? Now, fuck off. I've had enough of your bullshit.

[JSJ]

64. you accuse me, now, of accusing you of things i never accused you of...

... but you may have the last word, woman. By the way, there's always something one can do to avoid what one does not want to do.

[Qanisqineq]

65. my last words

"For your failure to avert the deaths of the Iraqis your hub had a hand in dispatching? Or, were you a gung ho military spouse before the troops gave themselves a bad name, and have only come to the conclusion, lately, that that crap won't fly no more?"

That is what you accused me of. So no, I did not accuse you of accusing me of stuff that you did not accuse me of (what a tongue-twister) -- because you did.

And as for "By the way, there's always something one can do to avoid what one does not want to do" -- if this is true, why don't you help these guys? What was he gonna do? Get shot?

[LynnTheDem]

55. Forget it, this one's not worth the time

We have rightwingnuts who only see black/white...and we have leftwingnuts who only see black/white.

And neither are worth the time of day. Same shit, different pile.

[Qanisqineq]

57. "same shit, different pile"

LOL
So true! The man/woman does not see shades of gray.

[JSJ]

59. good effort, troopers, but the nuremburg defense went out with...

...the hupmobile.

[Qanisqineq]

61. you're just becoming funny

you scream hatred but don't back it up. I'm sorry, but you are talking about hundreds of thousands of troops and calling them all murderers. You still haven't backed that up.

I'm getting tired of playing with you because it is 3:30 am here.

[Redleg]

80. Yeah, and 50 years of social-psychology research since the trials

suggests that ostensibly "normal" adults can engage in seriously dysfunctional behavior under certain circumstances. Obediance to authority and conformity pressures, to name just two phenomena, can have substantial influence on behavior. Situations can be so strong as to over-ride dispositional influences on behavior.

I am not making excuses for the troops' misbehavior but I also think we need to tone down this anti-soldier rhetoric that paints all soldiers as redneck homicidal maniacs. Your intolerance suggests you would be happier in a forum that doesn't promote Democratic views.

[JSJ]

102. normal adults don't join a homicidal and belicose armed force...

... with a history of murdering third world peoples.

[Redleg]

184. You don't know what you are talking about.

Your ignorance is so profound that I am almost at a loss for words. Our military currently has a number of honorable, well-adjusted people serving. I know some of them and I served with some of them. Your words are so deeply offensive and wrongheaded that I am amazed you consider yourself a liberal.

[JSJ]

193. yes, i do- you're the one serving up fascist fairy tales- i mean...

...who's killing kids in Iraq? Me or the fucking troops?

[sr_pacifica]

133. Right on, Lynn. n/t

[alwynsw]

151. Amen!

[Qanisqineq]

33. by the way

I watch the International News, I read international news. I know what it going on, I wasn't born yesterday.

[alwynsw]

97. You really need this.

[LynnTheDem]

25. And I live on the largest military base in the free world.

And NOT ONE of the troops under my husband's command voted for bush.

NOT ONE of them is "proud" of his "kills".

NOT ONE.

[JSJ]

28. how do you know? did you go in the voting booth with them?

Did you get inside their minds and read their most innermost thoughts? Bias, again, I think.

[LynnTheDem]

35. EXCUSE me, SIR.

MY HUSBAND IS A SOLDIER.

I LIVE ON A MILITARY BASE.

I KNOW what the fuck the soldiers ARE and ARE NOT saying.

So let's ask YOU your own condescending little question, shall we?

YOU say all the troops support bush;

"how do you know? did you go in the voting booth with them?"

Did you get inside their minds and read their most innermost thoughts? Bias, again, I think.

YOU are the BIASED one. YOU are the one making sweeping generalizations. YOU. NOT me. YOU.

[JSJ]

36. guilty feelings, if not addressed, will lead to a chameleon-type...

...personality. They will tell you anything they think you want to hear.

[Qanisqineq]

39. and you apparently only hear what you want to hear

[JSJ]

42. i'm not hearing anything i want to hear, here.

[LynnTheDem]

40. Now that's a switch & bait right out of the rightwingnut playbook!

You really should consider crossing the aisle; I believe you're on the wrong side.

[JSJ]

43. it's simple psychology- the human mind will conjure up just about...

...anything to relieve itself of guilt. No, supporting the troops is a rightwing ploy.

[Redleg]

185. Get bent.

Your mind has conjured up a scenario about which you really know very little.

[JSJ]

192. do tell, then, why 'the troops' are worthy of praise...

...without resorting to fictive and fascist slogans.

[Redleg]

81. Bullcrap.

EOM

[Redleg]

79. Good points. Arguing with these fools is like pissing in the wind.

They accuse us of being clueless but they are no more informed about the troops than they are about what I had for breakfast.

[Djinn]

82. it's not as black and white as people make out here

the troops do what they're told, it might be nice if they all as one refused to fight, could the entire bunch be court martialled or would that be some nasty PR? it'd be nice but highly unlikely and to be fair it's a lot to ask of soldiers.

BUT the invasion is illegal so it's possible to argue (not saying that I am arguing this) that ANY shots fired, rockets/bombs dropped that kill someone are acts of murder - it would certainly be possible to argue that any not fired in immediate and obvious situations of self defence are murder.

If a war is "justified" then the act of dropping bombs into residential areas is STILL considered a war crime usually, if the war is illegal and an act of unprompted agression, then when those bombs hit and kill men women and children what else can that be?

I don't "blame" the troops but that said I don't see them as "protecting America" either, they're dupes and pawns and unfortunately SOME of them are unquestionably murderers even if you don't accept the definitions above, some soldiers have willingly committed acts of torture and murder - unless someone in command forced a gun to their heads - NO-ONE can make you rape someone.

Were ALL Japanese soldiers guilty of the abuse meted out in POW camps, NO and some soldiers at the camps were even considered relatively "kind" but most people would say they shared atleast some culpability in the acts of the fellow soldiers even though THEIR punishment for dessertion would have been death not a court martial.

I don't have any kids but if I did I'd do anything I could to keep the out of the army, their hasn't been an instance of the US army engaging in combat for the purpose of "protecting America" in a long long time and there's not likely to be for quite some time to come. As a soldier your job is to protect power and profit at the expense of poorer peoples lives.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[T Town Jake]

12. Thanks ever so much for providing...

...Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, and the rest of the right-wing Dittoheads with more "the liberals hate our troops!!!" fodder. :eyes:
There is some serious bad faith here among those who post these "innocent" Trying to get a hand on how people now stand on the "Support the Troops" meme polls. They seem to be set up, as a rule, to elicit extreme responses among so-called "Democrats," and I sometimes begin to believe that that's the whole point... :mad:

[Qanisqineq]

16. yes, I believe it is

and now someone will tell you that it doesn't matter what the right-wing says about us. However, it will further alienate moderates or independent people away from the democratic party and that does matter.

[JSJ]

19. let's all march in lock-step, like the gop and good germans

[LynnTheDem]

47. And what are YOU doing but marching in lockstep by denigrating ALL

our troops?

YOU are being the GOP and Good Germans, just you target is all our troops instead of Muslims or gays or Jews.

[JSJ]

52. i march to my own drummer- and look who's bait and switching...

...the kettle!

[Warren DeMontague]

20. SUPPORT THE TROOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...Bring 'em home ALIVE.

[JSJ]

22. trials first

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

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[Warren DeMontague]

68. In my Opinion, The people responsible for the conduct of the war- any war-

are the people at the top who pursue the war policy.

That goes for Vietnam, that goes for Iraq.

I'm not going to sit around looking for grunts to blame for anything, when in my book it's Rumsfeld, Bush and Cheney who are responsible for the totality of what has gone down.

[Djinn]

83. so My Lai for example

was purely the fault of LBJ not anyone further down the line? and if Calley, Medina etc and all the grunts were completely without blame for the massacre of innocent men women and children in their own village because they HAD to follow the chain of command unquestioningly how do you explain the actions of decent humane soldiers like Hugh Thompson?

[Warren DeMontague]

84. Individual soldiers are not universally absolved of their conduct, no.

However, it's pointless to dick around with arguments like these when the architects of the plan, in general, are still up there causing MORE death and destruction.

Now, particularly with regards to Iraq and Afghanistan, you have a situation where people VERY HIGH UP in the administration have made a concerted effort to cirumvent or negate international standards on Human rights, the "quaint" Geneva convention, etc. In this instance- in particular- I think an argument can be made that the folks at the top are extremely culpable for the behaviors and excesses we have seen (and, particularly, the ones I'm sure we haven't.)

I have several problems with the wholesale rush to indict "the troops"-- two of them spring immediately to mind.

One, it plays into right-wing stereotypes about the left, supposedly spitting on 'Nam vets, that sort of thing. I suspect a great deal of this activity on this board is being spurred on by right-wingers and other F***per types who then can turn and say "Look at those seditious DU dirtbags! Slamming the troops while they're in battle!"
Does that mean we shouldn't have a legitimate discussion about what is taking place in our name? No. But I'm not about to let the right wing define the terms of that debate in such a way that they can marginalize us on the left as unpatriotic. Sorry, Chuckles, I'm not going to play that game.

Two, traditionally what happens when lower level grunts take the fall (witness Abu Ghraib) it's a cover and a whitewash, whereby a few "bad apples" are hung out to dry while the brass, the people truly responsible for the conduct get off scott free. You seem to think that if LBJ had taken the fall for My Lai, no one else further down the line would have been held accountable. It's my experience that these things work in reverse- a few people at the bottom take the fall, and the chain of command is protected from any responsibility.

[Djinn]

88. I don't "seem to think" anything

you're making a huge judgement there based on a fairly short question.

YES I see those as the top as MOST culpable, and incidently most repulsive as they don't even have to look at the faces of those they put in danger, it's easy to play soldier from Washington when you're not looking at the faces of screaming Iraqi women picking up pieces of their children, the troops there don't ahve that luxury - but that doesn't mean (like you say) that individual soldiers are absolved of their conduct. This is where I have a problem with "support the troops" because to me (and maybe it's just nitpicking) that is too broad, because some frankly deserve no support, I don't care WHO tells you to rape someone, if you do it you're a scumbag and get ZERO support from me.

Personally I couldn't give a shit what the right wing portray me as, as far as I'm concerned that's letting them frame the debate. I actively do not support the actions of some of the troops.

I suppose it's a question of what one means by "support" if that means do I hope they get home speedily and safely - sure I support them, does that mean I hope they suceed in what they're there to do - NO because I don't beleive that mission has anything to do with Iraqi freedom, history makes it patently obvious this is about istalling another compliant US friendly dictator and I absoutely do NOT support that. As with Vietnam (had I been old enough to comprehend it at the time) I support those fighting for the independence of their country and (if the majority wishes, which all indications show they do) the nationalisations of resources (unlike the wholesale transfer to foreign companies). I don't know what percentage of the resistance is fundie Islamic, but given Iraq's fairly long history of secularity I don't think it's that big. I guess it's hard to say I support the Iraqi's and the coalition troops at the same time. Do I wish them any harm though, absolutely not.

[Warren DeMontague]

89. Let me make a few points:

If you backtrack to my original response, what I believe I said was,

"Support the troops... Bring em home alive"

Generally the only reason arguments like this matter in terms of "how the right wing protrays us" is that people, on the right, try to use "support the troops" as a way to paint people into a corner of supporting the WAR.

Do I support this war? Fuck no. It was based of false pretenses, lies, was illegal, immoral, and a monumentally dumb idea to boot. That's why I was out there protesting the thing before it started. The War, this war, is not in any way, shape or form justifiable.

That's a long way from wishing harm on the kids who are out there slugging it out right now, many of whom thought they were signing up for one weekend a month to pay for college.

What's my opinion of the Iraqi "insurgents", (or "terrorists", as FOX News calls them)? ...Here's a thought experiment: If we had Iraqi troops occupying Boise, how would the locals react to that?

And I'm with you on Vietnam, too. There was no excuse for that war, either. It was wrong, pure and simple. Unfortunately there is a whole subsection of the US Populace who still haven't got their heads around that glaringly obvious proposition, so I suppose it's silly to expect them to rapidly understand that we are occupying Iraq on false pretenses and --no duh!-- the locals aren't gonna be too happy about it.

I'm against the war. Period. But the people I blame FOR the war are in this administration, not "the troops", that's all.

[Djinn]

95. this is where this argument gets confused I think

we apparently have the same views yet I wouldn't consider that I "support the troops" and you do feel that you support them - maybe people need to clarify what they mean by that because it can be pretty vague, the freeps support them in a way that means they support them to kill anything non american that the (repug only natch)president points them at, more moderate people might support them in fighting the Iraqi "terrorists" I'd say most people here at DU support them in that they hope they get home safely and soon while not supporting their mission as such.

I blame the admin FOR the war but I can also "blame" although I dunno if that's the right word some individual troops because no matter what your training, it might make some things OK in a certain context but you know fine well it ISN'T really OK, most human beings know right from wrong.

[Warren DeMontague]

154. I totally concur- there needs to be accountability for behavior in war.

I've seen extremely disturbing video on the web that I consider prima facie evidence of war crimes. Shooting 30mm rounds from helicopters at unarmed civilians running away, that sort of thing.

There's no question that persons need to be held accountable for that kind of thing. Just like everyone involved in My Lai needed to be held accountable.

Unfortunately, the difference between 35 years ago and today seems to be the total lock-down the government and the pentagon have on the corporate-owned media.

As it is, if my position isn't clear already, I support the troops in that I'm not going to issue blanket indictments of them, across the board, for what's going on with the war in general- since that, to me, is the responsibility of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al. However, that doesn't mean that atrocities or war crimes committed by individuals should be ignored or excused. I would hope (although I think abu ghraib was an abberation in that it actually saw the light of day) that situations like that would be exposed so that appropriate action can be pursued. I doubt in most cases, right now though, it will or would be, given what I said before about the media and the pentagon.

I support the troops- I want them to come home. I don't support the war.

[T Town Jake]

69. "Face it, Rambo, the troops are manly [Sic] killers of children"

...along with the hyperbolic garbage about the troops being "killers of children" - entirely designed to make DU look bad - comes also the typical poor spelling. Yep, I think I know one when I see one, and I definitely see one (reference link in previous post).

[DrWeird]

71. Well, they did kill some 40,000 children. So far.

How do you spell "manly"?

[T Town Jake]

72. I spell "manly" manly but "mainly" mainly...and I mainly see

...another frequent poster of far-out nonsense that seems designed not to express a genuine point of view, but rather to give the Dittoheads and Freepers their talking points about how "radical" and "nasty" liberals are. I can't count the number of times I've seen the good "DrWeird" respond to some alleged outrageous act supposedly committed by some liberal some where by saying it was quite alright even if it did occur because "we're the good guys." That kind of situational ethics is typical to the breed (see link in previous post), and so, yep, I've had you pegged for a long time, too.

[DrWeird]

74. That's great.

Tell it to the mothers of the 40,000 children we killed. Situation ethics and all that.

[geek tragedy]

159. My favorite piece of morally challenged "Weird" logic

was praising the bastards who targeted and murdered 36 children in Baghdad while calling the US troops who gave them candy "terrorists."

Remember, though, there are worse creatures than Freepers.

[donheld]

23. I have a sliding scale

i have great support for the rank and file. As you go up the chain of command my support grows weaker.

[lucabrasi]

26. what about

these guys

[JSJ]

32. naw, they're perfect angels, too- maybe when the troops start killing...

...civvies in this country, people will start bemoaning their precious troops.

[LynnTheDem]

49. EITHER/OR...FOR/AGAINST...GOOD/EVIL...

You really do see only BLACK/WHITE. Just like bush.

[JSJ]

54. i see the red blood of murdered iraqi children- what do you see?

[alwynsw]

99. You've obviously never been in uniform, or if so, never quite got "it"

You denigrate the military by using the very freedoms bought with the blood of their institutional ancestry. How hypocritical can you be?

You want to talk civilian casualties? Do a little reading on every modern war up to and including this one. Fighting is anything but an exact science. regardless of the why and who sent them, the troops are still our brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, sons, ans daughters. I cannot believe them to be the evil you proclaim.

I've worn this country's uniform. I've seen the elephant. You are clueless.

[JSJ]

104. don't have to pitch myself off a clift- like a lemming- to know...

...that military life is a loser- for the citizens who support it and the third world people who are murdered by it.

[alwynsw]

111. Thankfully, your opinion isn't worth much outside of your own mind.

[JSJ]

114. no, you mean outside your own mind- do not pretend to speak for...

...others. Thank-you.

[alwynsw]

120. Now you read minds? This just keeps getting better and better.

Remember the old saw about opinions? They're like assholes...

[JSJ]

122. can you get any more juvenile- please, get off my computer

[Columbia]

130. Juvenile?

This coming from someone who cannot perceive that a world exists beyond his personal black & white sphere.

[alwynsw]

131. Just stepping down to the level of the arguments offered.

I'm reminded of another member of this board who refuses to answer direct questions. I'm still waiting. Ever been in the military?

Also, do you ever stop to thank those who serve for your continued freedoms? Go ahead, try to tell me how they don't - and never have - done anything for you personally.

[JSJ]

138. the troops did not kill for me or maim for me- they did rain fire from...

...above on helpless child populations for me and they did not torture for me- they did not snipe for me, nor did they win freedom for me. As well, they did not make me safer, no, quite the contrary they've made my nationality a disgrace and a risk for me. In short, you may have your head on backward, if you think they should be thanked.

[alwynsw]

149. Today's military is nothing more than a continuation of a much needed

and proud tradition. What today's troops do is assure that you can keep the freedom to spout this bile. They continue to safeguard those freedoms won by the continental Army and Militia in the Revolution. They continue to safeguard the nation saved from being irreparably torn during the Civil War by their predecessors efforts. They continue to safeguard those freedoms that were reaffirmed by their sacrifices in WW I and WW II.

Yes, those in the WH have sent troops where, IMO, we had no business getting involved such as China in the '20's and Nicaragua at about the same time.

Those in the WH have also sent them to safeguard and protect others around the world when matters weren't truly a U.S. affair such as Bosnia.

Denigrate our men and women in uniform all you like. They'll still protect your sorry, whining ass when it needs to be done because, unlike those who feel as you do, whether it be armed combat or natural disaster, they are committed to the safety and welll being of all who live in this great country. Yes, it is a great country. We have our ups and downs - currently we're in a down mode. I have faith that regardless of the current situation, we, as a nation, will emerge even stronger and more vibrant that ever before.

We owe that eventual outcome in no small part to those who have served, are serving, and will serve in America's armed forces. They serve for any of a multitude of reasons, but the end result is the same. We are a stronger nation, blessed with the freedom that can only be bought with and nurtured by the sacrifices of those relative few who serve for all.

[JSJ]

152. you've become irrational in your efforts to defend the indefensible

[alwynsw]

156. Thank you, Dr. Phil.

I'm off to bed. I do believe I have divined the meaning of JSJ. I believe it is Just Some Jerk. Your arguments certainly have that quality.

Do us all a favor. Think before you post, then don't post.

[JSJ]

157. name calling doesn't befit a noble warrior, jack! get some shut-eye...

...please.

[LynnTheDem]

50. EITHER/OR...FOR/AGAINST...GOOD/EVIL...

You really do see only BLACK/WHITE. Just like bush.

[Redleg]

70. The 17% who voted "fuck 'em" confirmed my post about troop bashing.

For those of you who said they hadn't seen any troop bashing at DU, kiss my ___.

[Greyskye]

73. And you're sure that all these votes weren't posted by trolls?

And you're 100% sure that all these votes weren't posted by trolls/freepers who are just trying to show how DU posters are "anti-American"?

[Redleg]

75. No, I'm not sure.

But I have seen troop bashing posts by posters with many posts.

[Tracer]

76. I can't "support" the troops because ...

... I can't support an unjust war.

But I won't go as far as to say "fuck 'em".

There's a difference between being neutral towards "the troops" and wanting them to be withdrawn from Iraq and being actively hateful towards them Ñ whether they are voluneers or not.

I also must say that I'm distressed by the bloodthirsty comments that I've read coming out of some of their mouths.

[nonconformist]

77. As the wife of an 10% disabled Army veteran

I actually SUPPORT the troops, and it goes beyond waving a flag while ignoring everything going on around me.

I fight for their rights, for their benefits, for their welfare. I vote in their best interests. I spent the majority of my 20's on military bases and both my children were born in military hospitals.

Maybe because of this I have the unique perspective of being able to view the troops as individuals, as humans - as someones son, daughter, father, mother, husband and wife.

I'm a former Army wife, the daughter-in-law of a Vietnam War vet, the granddaughter of a Korean War vet and the niece of two more veterans -- ALL those vets being yellow-dog democrats both during and after their service. The military are all warmongering Republicans? Hardly.

So I will continue to support the troops and do everything in my power to actually provide SUPPORT for them. They're being used as cannon fodder; expendable numbers on paper. Will some snap, lose their minds and do bad things? Yes, it's the nature of war - it's evil and ugly and it damages some people profoundly. Will some intentionally and viciously do bad things? Yes, it's the nature of humanity. I don't write off all white men between the ages of 25-35 just because a few of them are serial killers - and this is the kind of deluded justification for hating the troops that people are using. People who commit war crimes (and order those crimes committed) should be prosecuted. But the vast majority don't want any part of any of this - trust me. They just want to go home and be with their families. They're doing what they're ordered to do, because they're being told what they're doing is protecting America. They're young, naive and scared. Some have to tell themselves what they're doing is noble so they can survive without going insane.

If you can honestly say that you wish harm on them or hold them all collectively responsible for decisions that their chain of command have made, I feel sorry for you - because your heart is dead and you allowed Bush to kill your humanity. You are no better than the neocons, and in fact are worse because you should know better.

[RichardRay]

78. JSJ - Why aren't you in the streets?

It seems like you've got a clear analysis that says the troops and all who command or support them are (very likely) guilty of murder. You seem to be saying that any of them who are scared or reluctant to step forward are cowards and those who try to imagine what it's like to be in those shoes are as guilty as they are.

In that case, what are you doing at a keyboard? If it's so black and white to you why are you in the streets with a gun and a gas mask? Is it perhaps because you can't see what chance you'd have of success in changing what's going on? Maybe it's because you don't want to get swatted like an annoying insect?

It seems to me that you're applying to our troops in Iraq and to those who support them here at home a set of standards that you're not living up to yourself. That would be fine with me except that your standards are so clear cut that it makes it difficult to figure out where I might cut you any slack.

Just for the record - I was on active duty during VietNam, I stepped forward, I got swatted. It was probably the scariest thing I've ever done and it reverberates in my life to this day. Unless you've been there I sincerely doubt you have any idea what you're suggesting those guys should try to do.

Richard Ray - Jackson Hole, WY

[JSJ]

105. my message? don't join the fucking american armed forces in...

...the first fucking place, cowboy.

[RichardRay]

187. OK, that's the easy one

How about the guy who's been in the Guard for several years and gets called up and sent to Iraq. He's left his family and job and ended up sitting the the desert guarding a fuel dump. He was supposed to get home last July, but he's still there and they won't tell him when he might get to leave.

What should he do?

Richard Ray - Jackson Hole, WY
(the cowboys around here will tell you quite clearly that I am NOT a cowboy, but thanks anyway.)

[JSJ]

194. he joined a branch of the most fascist nation in history's military...

...he's getting what he deserved for thinking he could skate around the gory products of the USA's abhorrant foreign policy.

[DinahMoeHum]

85. I support the ones whose families belong to MFSO. . .

Military Families Speak Out
www.mfso.org

as well as those who belong to Bring Them Home Now
www.bringthemhomenow.org

and Operation Truth
www.optruth.org

and Iraq Veterans Against The War
www.ivaw.net

and the ones who contributed to Michael Moore's new book "Will They Ever Trust Us Again?"
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1005-22.htm

These organizations will help the troops as they come home. And they are not alone - groups like Vietnam Veterans Against The War also support them. As one of them said to the new guys last summer, "We have your back."

Will WE have theirs? I intend to make sure I do.


:nuke:

[Warren DeMontague]

86. Blaming The Troops...

...Is that you, Rudy?

[Mike Niendorff]

87. They've been hijacked, just like the rest of our country.

And it will get uglier for all of us from here.


MDN

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

92. They are pawns in the BushCo game......

We should feel as sorry for them as anyone in the world right now. No matter what they do, they will be treated like shit when they come back.....either for "losing" or not getting the medical benefits that the Chimp-Boy doesn't feel the need to provide them.

[malmapus]

93. I don't support the war...

...but I'll be damned if I don't support my buddies who are in that shithole.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

94. They're enforcers and cannon fodder for Bush and the capitalists.

I feel sorry for the poor sods. Anyone that thinks that they have a "choice" in what they do, has probably never been in the military.

Even the sadists at Abu-Ghraib were bowing to peer pressure and the military "culture" of brutality.

[Francine Frensky]

100. NEVER confuse the war with the warrior

D*mn, I wish we had a president who said clever things like that...

[JSJ]

108. and don't confuse a warrior with a person of peace and light

[sr_pacifica]

136. The war couldn't happen without the warrior n/t

[sweetheart]

101. Must i care?

Nazi soldiers did not get much sympathy, just because they were
being lead by hitler. We killed them all, as the enemy. In this
regard, i would hope that those troops who do not conscience colonial
theft, have found a way to not be in iraq.

Those that are, seem to have made their bed with the flag cult.
In this regard, i've no feelings at all. I don't care. They have
passed beyond any realm of my concern in to the land of who gives
a fuck.

[JSJ]

107. no, instead, care about people who don't mistreat or kill people...

... you'll stay on the side of the angels that way.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JSJ]

116. you are correct, sir!

[puttothesword]

124. ma'am actually...

but that's ok.

maybe that all came off a little harsh. I honestly do feel for the folks in the lower ranks. Most of them a dumb kids like I was at one time. But, after spending a few months over there, if they haven't wisened up by now, they're in trouble.

And yeah, every time I hear "support the troops!" I think of nice little Germans waving flags screaming "Support the Wehrmacht und die Waffen SS!" In essence "support the troops" to me means "fall in line like a good little german or ELSE!"

How can I support people who are involved in an activity that is in violation of the basic international laws regarding war?

[JSJ]

127. women, with their superior sensitivity, are less likely to do something...

...as egregiously harmful as supporting the troops- that's been my observation. I agree that the 'good German' comparison is as apt as ever.

[MADem]

163. The officer's oath

..is the same as the President's. One swears or affirms to support the Constitution. The enlisted oath OBLIGES the person who takes it "to obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me."

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/oaths.htm

You can read them here. This is an Army page, but change Army to appropriate branch of service and it is the same for all branches.

Note that officers are not obliged to swear to obey the President, only to uphold the Constitution. It's an "out" of sorts if the guy goes totally Queegy.

I support our troops, I want them home, alive, now. Enough of this foolish war.

[FM Arouet666]

150. 21% of you are troubled

As an ex-serviceman myself, I am dismayed to see 21% of Duers saying "fuck the troops." Those whose lives are lost, Iraqi, American or coalition are victims of this misguided war. Similarly, those on both sides caught up in this organized homicide are victims. I suspect that many of our troops and many of the "enemy" are just kids trapped by the circumstances of our day, young and inexperience and easily manipulated by those seeking their own selfish gain. For the insurgents, it is the radical terrorist, or religious zealot. For our troops, it is our administration with the pollution of moral values and unquestioning nationalism thrust upon them.

Lacking empathy is trait more befitting a republican.

[JSJ]

155. you've no right to display guevara's pic in your sig

There is a difference between 'our kids' who are agressively trying to kill anything that moves in Iraq and Afhanistan and the poor people, there, who- not unlike the poor of pre-revolutionary Cuba- are simply trying to survive a slaughter by 'our kids'. Kids, my ass.

[FM Arouet666]

162. Right as rain my dear JSJ

People become trapped in situations beyond their control. You can easily take the moral high ground and say that anyone backing this administration is morally unjust and deserves our disrespect and scorn. However, not everyone has the strength to take this action. Our history would be a lot less bloody if people of conscience could stand up and say No. Unfortunately, that is not reality. Most certainly there are U.S military personnel deserving your scorn. But I suspect that a majority of our troops are stuck in a situation, not of their making, with no practical way to resist. Pity them, but scorn?

Viva Che

[JSJ]

166. i speak only to those contemplating a stint

[FM Arouet666]

171. I would hope no American has to contemplate a stint

even yourself. As a physician I will be next in line in the so called "medical draft." My position is most troubling. As a pacifist I am faced with supporting the Holocaust in Iraq as a military officer, which I find morally abhorrent, or supporting our troops and providing needed medical expertise to the innocent Iraqi civilians trapped in this conflagration. So, you see, the stance that those called to war are to be scorned, is a bit more complex. To be honest, I have no idea what I will do. As I mentioned, taking the moral high ground is not that easy. I have three options, report as ordered, stand my ground, or flee this country. Unless you are faced with this dilemma, I think it would hard to pass judgment on those troops sent to slaughter.

[JSJ]

172. i am a citizen and will pass judgement on any employee of my gov...

...that I choose- but, really doc, you can do a term in a country club for 1-3 years and really own yourself. Then, you'd be worthy of hero status, at least you'd be my hero (and many others, too, I believe). Otherwise, you're making the conscious decision to support the slaughter- should you decide not to flee. By the way, if you could turn back the clock, would you still join, with what you now know? No? Then shout why to the heavens and maybe, just maybe, a hundred or so other pre-recruits will reconsider.

[FM Arouet666]

176. You make a loud noise

You have the right to pass judgment on the government as every American does. However, you make it sound easy to resist. A martyr for the cause, jail at Leavenworth, hardly a country club, lose my right to vote, lose my medical career, my family and children without a future. Or report for duty and practice my expertise for the good of my fellow man, American and Iraqi, all victims of this war.

Of course I would never join this war by choice, but life often hands you situations outside your control.

Your anger is evident and justified given this unholy crusade, however, it is easy to pass judgment on others when you are not faced with the same moral dilemma. To scorn your fellow man for not having the courage to be a martyr, would suggest that you, yourself, are willing to sacrifice all for your ideals. If you are, I salute you, I wish I could be as sure.

[JSJ]

178. i make sense- one needs only to open thine eyes and ears...

... and by the way, good luck!

[FM Arouet666]

179. Good luck to you too

Open and seeing and hearing more than I would like.


Peace.

[MADem]

169. Well said. n/t

[LittleClarkie]

160. I'm in the "I'll be damned if I'm against" camp AND

I'm posting a link to Kerry's 1971 testimony, just because it feels damned relevant to the discussion somehow.

http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html

[FM Arouet666]

165. Great Link

Sad that a man of conscience was defeated by such an immoral lower primate.

[sr_pacifica]

161. I never support the troops when it comes to an immoral war, but

I do want the troops to be brought out of harm's way. So, if what we mean by "support" is "bringing them home" I suppose I do, however, my impression of how "support" has usually been used is, keeping up their morale by showing them that we support what they are doing in whatever conflict they are involved with. And this I have never done in Vietnam, Gulf War, Grenada, and I'm not doing it in this war.

I think the interpretation of support as "bringing them home" is a nice coopted version of the traditional, nationalistic meaning of "support." However, just like waving the flag, I can't bring myself to adopt the practice of using the term "support the troops" because of its usual meaning, which I want no part of.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

164. I am a #3

I am proud of that fact.

The reality is the issue is not black and white; there are many shades of gray involved. I do not now, nor will I ever, support the reason we are there. However, I will not narrow my mind to the point that I cannot see who has the power and who does not.

[JSJ]

168. people with guns have the power- that's what's so attractive to the...

... people who join our contemporary military.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

182. You and I have already had this dance.

I already know we do not see eye to eye on this. You have your opinion, I do not agree with it but I respect your right to your thoughts.

What I do not understand is why you pursue threads like these bashing others for theirs.

I respectfully agree to disagree with you, again.

[JSJ]

183. okay- but if i'm bashing anything it's the indoctrination americans...

...seem to want to embrace. My only mission is to prick that balloon. I think vets- those who recently 'served'- are doing a horrible disservice to 'our' children by ommitting the real truth about American military power and what it means to follow orders in service to it, who may be the next casualties in the next killing action should they end up with personal weapon systems in tow for the likes of another president with a lust for money and power.

[Fifth of Five]

186. "Not really for the war"

Doesn't describe my position - although I voted for #3.

I have always been 100% against this war. The troops are victims.

[Canavar]

188. My thoughts on the troops.

The text near the top of this site exemplifies how I feel about the troops. I agree that the language used is tasteless and tactless, and that not all troops are as wretched as those quoted in the article, but I can not help but see soldiers who go to fight in such a blatantly unjust war, voluntarily, as criminals. It's as such easier to have sympathy for the soldiers in Vietnam, and the German soliders in WWII. I refuse to excuse their volunarily joining this war as naivety.

First off. To all liberals and progressives here. I appreciate you for what you are, a force of good in a reactionary society. Now.. I do not intend to start any flame-wars as seen above in this thread. I felt I had to speak my mind on this, even though I see the harassment JSJ has had to take from some of you. I acknowledge that this is an issue where people from "both camps" are pretty much in agreement. But for different reasons. As I see it, conservatives support them because they feel they are fighting a justified war. You support them because you feel that they are victims of criminal policies and politicians. You see them as naive, or as ProudToBeBlueInRhody put it, "pawns in the BushCo game". I know it is only my second post, but with what I write below I want to make it clear that I am not some troll that wishes to put anyone here in a bad light. These are my thoughts on this, and they are obviously quite different from the majority here.

To any conservative who might read this. It's not easy for me to write to you in an orderly manner, since I see you as a disaster for your nation and the world, but I am sure the feeling is mutual. Since so many people here are afraid that my views could be picked up by you to show how "horrible" liberals are, I'll make it clear right away that I am not a liberal. I hold a political ideology that is hated by liberals and conservatives alike in your country, even though you like to refer to liberals as commies. Trust me, they are far from communists. You see, over here we don't agree that everything on the left equals liberal, and I disagree with certain people here who think that everyone on the left has to feel the same way about some issue as not to put good liberals in a bad light. I'm talking about those liberals who would say that 21% of us are troubled because they don't agree with our stance. I am not a liberal, keep that in mind before you use my words as an example of liberalism.

[LiberalPersona]

189. Support the troops, not the CiC

My cousin, who has long been my best friend joined the marines this year, and he's going to Iraq. I fear for his life.

[NCN007]

191. Support the Troops

Even if you don’t believe in the war, support the troops, at least today. They don’t decide where to fight, or whether they should even be fighting there or not. They make the decision to support our country, and then all they can do is choose how to fight. No one is more anger, upset, and offended by Abu Girab and the conduct of the unit in charge than the soldiers who fight with honor every day who had a black mark put on their service because of the lack of moral standards of a few. Yes, there are Lieutenant Calleys out there, but there are also plenty of Warrant Officer Thompsons* too. So say thanks today. They are risking their lives out there for the country, whether they should even be there or not.

*http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/005872.php