***ELECTION FIASCO: WE MUST HAVE A CLEAR MESSAGE***

[JohnnyCougar]

This thread is meant to formulate a united message on the election fiasco, and to be a clearinghouse for information supporting this and only this message. Kick when needed.

As we saw tonight on ABC, we can't be running around with 10 theories at once, all of which are circumstantial evidence, and can be debunked easily. Rural Florida has Dixiecrats, who have voted for Bush and Dole in the past. And we shouldn't be screaming fraud yet. That makes us look partisan, hence no one will listen. We need to formulate a clear, solid message that can't be brushed off.

1. BBV
Central tabulators and E-voting machines are as easy, if not easier to hack as a personal computer. With the power that is at stake in US Presidential elections, this is absolutely unacceptable.

2. Exit Polls
Exit polls in the past have been a good indicator of who was winning the election. Why are they so different this year? And why were the actual results all skewed toward Bush? Exit polls have previously been used to detect election fraud. We are better off compiling evidence that supports exit polling, and giving examples of how it has detected fraud in the past. The Republicans are already trying to discredit exit polling.

3. Statistical anomalies and machine failures
Statistical anomalies, such as the one in Ohio that gave Bush 4,000 extra votes are good for discrediting the entire process. There is no speculation about this; it can't be refuted. Problems with machines in North Carolina are abundant as well. This is good supporting evidence for our main argument.

4. Voter intimidation/disenfrancisment
This also casts doubt on the legitimacy of the election. It also, by nature, puts focus on dirty tricks of the Republicans. If Republicans systematically disenfranchise minority voters, what else won't they do?

***Our chain of logic***
1. The electoral process is insecure, therefore
2. We can't trust the outcome, especially when
3. Exit polls and pre-election polls show Kerry winning,
4. Therefore we demand a recount.

Do not demand fraud be exposed. Fraud implies an undesireable situation for many people, and things most reporters don't want to think about. Demand a recount! Be non-partisan! The recount will expose the fraud.

I will divide this thread up into 5 sections for the compilation of evidence.

Good luck!!

[JohnnyCougar]

1. ***BBV EVIDENCE & LINKS...THE PROCESS IS INSECURE***

Post all BBV videos and links below.

[JohnnyCougar]

13. Votergate TV and BBV

This video is great! Get it to everyone you know! It helps make our case!
http://www.votergate.tv/

Everyone visit this site!
www.blackboxvoting.org

[JohnnyCougar]

19. New York Times explains flaws in BBV

http://www.wanttoknow.info/030724nytimes

[goclark]

2. Very good post ! Keep kicked for ideas

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. On #1

May be easier to hack than a personal computer.

Clarification: Why? If that is asked, it is because the OS is WinCE, noted for its utter lack of stability and security. It's an OS for handheld computers.

On edit: Good stress on non-partisan. Stress that this is an American issue, beyond idealogy. It is.

[JohnnyCougar]

4. ***EXIT POLLS***

Post all supporting evidence for exit polling here. Post links that show discrepancies b/t actual vote and pollng results.

Most importantly, find stories that show exit polling exposing fraud.

[JohnnyCougar]

14. What are the odds?

http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=405
Bush somehow beat odds of 50,000 to 1!

[mountebank]

38. Use comparison of "critical" vs. "non-critical" states.

That is found here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=36314&mesg_id=36314

In a nutshell: Critical states showed twice as much movement from exit polls to vote tallies than non-critical states. This despite the critical states having an average sample size of almost double that of non-critical states, which would usually mean more accurate results.

We definitely need to put a lid on the analysis of statewide exit polls between so-called "paper" and "non-paper ballot" states. This analysis is getting repeated in a lot of places, including media outlets (truthout, etc.) and is seriously flawed. For one, states with a paper ballot were included in the non-paper ballot category. Second, a second analysis showed no association, per:

http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=405

But the difference between swing states and non-swing states is suggestive.

[mountebank]

39. Ah - even Bob Shrum is repeating it!!

“I think there are a lot of weird things going on,” Shrum told reporters Monday, echoing an assertion made by several Democratic cyberactivists. “Some weird things. Why are the exit polls more accurate in states with paper ballots than in states with machines?”

That is exactly what we need to PREVENT. There is MUCH more rigorous work out there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2663718

EDIT: for link

[Goldmund]

5. The problem with that chain of argument

or rather, that hierarchy of importance is that your two most important points were true even before the election. If we couldn't trust the results of the election, then we shouldn't have taken part in it until we could make it trustworthy again.

I think the strongest argument is the discrepancy between exit polls and final results being distributed far from randomly across different counties, and highly dependent upon the method of vote-counting applied.

[JohnnyCougar]

9. This will only make the case that the machines need to be changed now.

Which will benefit us anyways.

[JohnnyCougar]

6. ***STATISTICAL ANOMALIES & MACHINE FAILURES***

Post all VERIFIABLE evidence of machine error and statistical anomalies here. Note: NO CIRCUMSTATNIAL EVIDENCE!!!

[JohnnyCougar]

18. Bush "gains" 4000 votes

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap/index.html

[Mr X]

7. Addition to #2

Take note that the exit polls in the paper states are accurate compared to the actual results, while in the electronic states the exit polls and actual results are seriously out of whack.

[JohnnyCougar]

8. ***MEDIA CONTACTS: DEMAND A RECOUNT***

Post all media contacts and important contact links here.

[JohnnyCougar]

33. Donate to Help America Recount!

http://www.HelpAmericaRecount.org

[JohnnyCougar]

34. National media list!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x816939

[idiosyncratic]

35. [e-mail]

He is the only one who has reported on this. I've emailed him several times to encourage him to keep it up.

[JohnnyCougar]

37. Donate to Nader for recounts!

http://www.votenader.com

[aquart]

10. Nice. Sane. I like it.

[JohnnyCougar]

11. ***LINKS TO FLIERS***

If anyone wants to make a printable flier with this message, post the link below.

[JohnnyCougar]

12. Kick....fill this thread up with links and facts!!

[m berst]

15. "recount" is walking into a trap

Great post. I would be careful about using the word "recount" because it walks into a Rove trap. - "What?? How many times do they want them counted?? They keep counting 'til they get the result they like."

Audit. Verify. Investigate. Integrity.

Every Republican I talk to agrees with those.

[JohnnyCougar]

16. I see....good point.

Although IF the central tabulators were hacked in the Op-Scan counties, a recount would prove fraud. Or prove that there is something wrong with the system.

[m berst]

17. thanks

Everyone agree with making sure that the election has integrity.

"Recount" sounds petulant and whiny. It also puts a time presure on - "are you done counting yet?"

"Careful and thorough investigation" on the other hand, is neutral and takes the moral high ground.

Verify and validate - who can argue with that?

"Get it right" and "take your time and carefully check" all is a matter of fair play and integrity and engages people's patience and fights back the rush to "put it behind us already."

[Cronus Protagonist]

20. Don't demand FRAUD be exposed?

Hahahhaaa - because "reporters don't want to think about it"? Hahahahaa you're SUCH a card! Did you fail the operative training course?

Just the fact that you think you can speak for all of us is so ludicrous it beggars belief. Keep posting, though, you're giving me a good laugh with your antics.

Oh, about fraud; if there was FRAUD and it can be exposed, it MUST be exposed now. We all demand it (except you, of course) The rest of us don't want another 4 years of an unelected fraud, thank you much.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)

[JohnnyCougar]

22. What are you coming off as when you demand there was fraud without proof?

I'm sure that will convince the moderates. :eyes:

[Cronus Protagonist]

23. That's not what I said. Read it again.

Try to comprehend. I know it's hard work.

[JohnnyCougar]

24. So you're not saying to run around like an asshole yelling FRAUD, FRAUD!!!

Because that's what you're doing. And anyone reasonable will look at you and roll their eyes. We have to frame our message so it doesn't turn off moderates. The best way to do that is to explain to them how the system is so open to fraud, instead of pointing fingers right away. The minute we point fingers, our message gets tuned out because they think we are "sore losers" or being partisan. But you can't seem to grasp the bigger picture, so I might as well be talking to myself.

I know you have feelings of resentment to me because I criticized you in another thread for running around yelling hyperbole that will get the story killed before it ever gets off the ground. And I know you're jealous that I'm coming up with a solution that is at least intended to work around the "tin-foil hat" reputation that we bloggers already have. That is a main obstacle if we want to seriously pursue this story and get it air play.

I hope you learn to lighten up. You are only impeding the progress of this issue by posting snide remarks in my thread. If you continue, I will be forced to alert the moderators. Get over whatever animosity you have toward me, and do something to help our cause.

[Cronus Protagonist]

25. Hahhahha - you just never address the issues, do you?

As I noted earlier, your comments beggar belief. You're not doing anything to change my opinion. Was that your intention?

[Sideways]

26. Cronus STOP Being Jealous Of JC

Especially of his double plus good concern for "offending moderates" and his heart felt desire to protect us from looking like "hyperboloids." He cares deeply for us and please don't think he is a fly by night poster even if he just got here August 21, 200FUCKING4. :silly:

[Cronus Protagonist]

27. Shhhhhh

damn.

[JohnnyCougar]

40. Now that the media has debunked our arguments as wild claims

just like I said they would, do you want to retract your nonsensical rantings?

Retract your insipid insinuation that I am a freeper?

If we were bitching about BBV from the beginning, instead of Republican voting counties going Republican again in Florida, we'd have a story already.

Thanks to people like you, who can't think comprehensively, we now have a stigma to overcome, and any claim we make will have less credit.

[Cronus Protagonist]

28. BTW - I like you. You're very funny :)

I just want to encourage you to post some more. Is that wrong?

[JohnnyCougar]

29. The moderators will be shutting down your asinine comments soon.

How's that for funny?

[Cronus Protagonist]

30. I haven't broken any rules.

Why would they delete my comments? Because you don't like them?

[goclark]

31. It's not about you, it's about exposing the truth

You are talking as if they will like us and listen to us if we say nice little words like "we are looking into various situations to see if maybe there was something a tiny bit wrong about the voting process. We probably don't know what we are talking about but please Mister Master will you let us think about it and make our words the words you will let us use to describe our situation."

First of all, when you are dealing with bullies, you must say something to get their attention. Something to make them get upset because they know that you are really on to something.

We are not playing ball with wimps here we are dealing with the
SWIFT BOAT LIARS!

I find it interesting that they can tell bold face lies and those LIES gets played all over the media.

We say, "We are seeing many examples of FRAUD in this election" and they say we are Fools.

And we accept that, when will we ever learn!

Either we raise hell now or forget all about the voting process in America! That is exactly what they want us to do and to WAIT until all the facts are in does not work. These thugs do not deal in facts, they laugh at facts.

Just ask GWB where is OBL and he laughs right in your face and says "We may never find him, so what!"

[JohnnyCougar]

32. No, what I am doing is trying to formulate a message that will hold up

against backlash and speculation. Do you have proof that there is fraud yet? People are going to ask.

We do, however, have proof that the system is unstable and open to corruption and hacking. We can PROVE this, and once we do, people won't think that election rigging is a fantasy.

Cronus is just beligerent because he and I had a disagreement on a previous thread. He is doing nothing but troll on this one. I guess I don't really care what he says anymore, because at best, he is kicking my thread, and I can ignore him. If we scream "fraud!" and "lies!" without any proof, we will be disregarded by the MSM and brushed aside. Trust me.

[goclark]

36. Trust me we will be brushed aside whatever words we use

They have been told to talk all day about Scott Peterson.

They have been Roved to talk about anything but the Democrats and the idea of a "problem" with the vote.

Call it what you will and let's see how fast they pick it up.

I will be delighted to say I am wrong.

[Ladyhawk]

21. My BBV CD...

http://ladyhawk.landmarkwebhosting.com

I'm uploading the new ISO now. Hopefully, it will upload properly.

LH