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Embrace the full HORROR of the NIGHTMARE Part II (A Brilliant Discussion)

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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 07:15 PM
Original message
Embrace the full HORROR of the NIGHTMARE Part II (A Brilliant Discussion)
A brilliant discussion and topic for discussion went on right here a few days ago and I'm resubmitting it to GD for further contemplation. Walt, I think it's a crazy idea. It is truly terrifying but not any more or less terrifying than the prospect of loosing the ability to filibuster in the Senate.

I strongly encourage all DUers to read this thread particularly the exchange between VelmaD and Walt Starr. These two really get to the bottom of what makes for a compelling argument that, at least, is tantalizing to consider.

I also need to read The Art of War. I want to respond with something along the lines of "It's so crazy it just might work", but I'm not as schooled with electoral politics, myself. But the idea that is advanced here is as controversial as it is challenging.

Walt, I hope that you (or I) don't get further flamed for this but I thought this discussion to compelling to let go and I wanted more DUers to read it and to hear their opinions on it.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Link?
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. it's there
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idiosyncratic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow! That is a long thread. I had to use the "Find" feature
of my browser to find the section you were talking about.


Very interesting discussion.
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mia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
4.  Read Sun Tzu on the Art of War online
Thanks for pointing to the "Embrace the full HORROR of the NIGHTMARE" thread. It was an interesting argument and led me to find this online version of:

SUN TZU ON THE ART OF WAR
THE OLDEST MILITARY TREATISE IN THE WORLD

Translated from the Chinese
By LIONEL GILES, M.A. (1910)
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You're welcome.
I think Walt makes some very compelling arguments but I don't know about the strategic reality of them being implemented. This is why I particularly like the exchange between he and VelmaD. Very interesting.

Do you think it could work?
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mia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Will it work? maybe...
Just finished reading the online text.

http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html#01

This line seems to relate to your question and the discussion at hand.


VI. WEAK POINTS AND STRONG

25. In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch
you can attain is to conceal them; conceal your dispositions,
and you will be safe from the prying of the subtlest spies,
from the machinations of the wisest brains.

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RyomaSakamoto Donating Member (393 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. can we get a summary
please
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. The thread is much clearer than a summary possibly could be. It's worth
the entire read, whether you agree or not with the idea. It's given me a lot to think about.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. I disagree. I posted it at the link you provided.
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. could you expound?
Could you expound upon the reasons that you disagree? I'm not entirely convinced myself but I'd like to hear what some other thoughts are. VelmaD makes a valid criticism of the strategy in that there's no guarantee that moderate repubs in the Senate would risk their necks in order to spare Roe via SC nominee. But the strategy that Walt advances is tantalizing to say the least. Crazy, but interesting. (No offense, Walt, if you're reading.)
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Beacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
10. Glad to be back to it.
I missed this thread. Good ideas were abounding
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
11. Boycott the beast::
Edited on Tue Nov-09-04 10:09 PM by Zorra
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2600099&mesg_id=2600099

If your enemy drinks from only one source, poison the well.

Electronic voting machine fraud will insure a permanent republican majority in the House and Senate. We will have a republican Resident in the WH for as long as electronic voting machines are used to cast and count votes.

There is only one reason to use electronic voting devices which cannot be recounted, and this reason is to fix elections.

Democracy is over in America. Other means of achieving life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for the people of the US will be the most effective.

I believe filibustering is still a good idea because it will take time and energy away from legislative plans to completely implement fascist totalitarianism. That will buy us more time to weaken the economic stranglehold that republican corporations and their legislative servants have on our nation. If it were not for electronic voting devices, I would agree with Walt and his premise that when you are too weak to fight it is better not to get totally decimated. Unfortunately, republicans are in a position now to make nationwide unrecountable electronic voting mandatory, and they will.

And no one can do anything about it.

Therefore, if you are concerned about your liberty, organize and engage in a general strike and boycott ASAP. Yes, this requires sacrifice and will be extremely uncomfortable. Is this temporary discomfort worth you and your family and friends not having to live a lifetime in a fascist police state?

Would you have participated in the War for Independence in 1776 at the expense of your comfort?

If you really value your freedom and democracy, shutting the country down through non-cooperation, strike and boycott may be the only way to save the nation from becoming a full blown fascist police state bent on militarily subjugating the world.

Gandhi:

Gandhi's struggle was so overwhelming and significant, because he challenged the institutional violence of the modern state. He not only recommended refusing military service but also refusing to pay taxes to a militarized state. In addition to citizens' non-cooperating with an evil government, a neutral country also has the obligation to refuse to support or assist a military state or aggressor. Gandhi suggested a nonviolent army that could engage in constructive activities, lessen tensions, and sacrifice their lives to calm mobs and end riots. The qualifications for such a peace brigade would be complete faith in and adherence to nonviolence, equal respect for all religions, personal service and good human relations with the community, integrity and impartiality, and anticipation of brooding conflicts. The cost of training and equipping such a peace brigade would be practically nothing compared to the expenses of the modern military establishment. Gandhi envisioned a nonviolent state which would protect itself by not cooperating with any aggressor. Gandhi was concerned that the democracies would adopt the forceful methods of the fascists; but true democracy must ultimately be nonviolent, for violence is an obvious restriction of liberty. In 1946 Gandhi asserted, "Democracy to be true should cease to rely upon the army for anything whatsoever. It will be a poor democracy that depends for its existence on military assistance. Military force interferes with the free growth of the mind. It smothers the soul of man." He criticized America for its treatment of the Negro. Gandhi observed that armaments are used for greedy exploitation and that the competition and desire for material possessions and the Great Power's imperialistic designs are the biggest blocks to world peace. Also they must shed their fear of destruction; then by disarmament peace can be attained. Gandhi warned, "If the mad race for armaments continues, it is bound to result in a slaughter such as has never occurred in history. If there is a victor left, the very victory will be a living death for the nation that emerges victorious. There is no escape from the impending doom save through a bold and unconditional acceptance of the nonviolent method with all its glorious implications." Gandhi urged us to go beyond family and country to consider the good of the world, and he recommended a world governing body which would recognize the equal independence of each nation. He once said, "The golden way is to be friends with the world and to regard the whole human family as one."

http://www.san.beck.org/WP19-Gandhi.html

Gandhi:

After the war, he became involved with the Indian National Congress and the movement for independence. He gained worldwide publicity through his policy of civil disobedience and the use of fasting as a form of protest, and was repeatedly imprisoned by the British authorities (for example on March 18, 1922 he was sentenced to six years in prison for civil disobedience but served only 2 years).

Gandhi's other successful strategies for the independence movement included swadeshi policy – the boycott of foreign-made goods, especially British goods. Linked to this was his advocacy that all Indians should wear khadi – homespun cloth, instead of relying on British-made textiles. Gandhi advocated that Indian women, rich or poor, should spend time each day spinning khadi in support of the independence movement. This was a strategy to include women in the independence movement at a time when many thought that such activities were not 'respectable' for women to engage in.

His pro-independence stance hardened after the Amritsar Massacre in 1920.

One of his most striking actions was the salt march known as the Dandi March, that started on March 12, 1930 and ended on April 5, when he led thousands of people to the sea to collect their own salt rather than pay the salt tax.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Gandhi
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 01:26 AM
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12. kick
:kick:
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