I want to know something right here, right frigging NOW:

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

I want to hear from DUers who agree with the following:

1. We don't know if this election was on the up and up. In fact, there is quite disconcerting evidence to the contrary.

2. In light of that, all the Democratic navel-gazing and shooting ourselves in the foot is ridiculous. Imagine if it came out that we actually DID win. Then what was all the "oh my GOD, this is what we need to do differently" hand wringing about?

3. I'm sick of hearing from FELLOW Democrats how I should talk to right wingers now, how we all should appeal to bigots, how we need to change our language, go to right wing churches, blah blah blah.

WTF is THAT about? I am SURROUNDED by right wingers. I've spent the better part of my LIFE trying to talk sense into them. I didn't ever insult them, I never screamed at them, I simply TALKED and LISTENED.

You CANNOT out bigot a bigot. If you want to try, you'd probably be better off finding a hard surface and applying your head to it over and over.

Secondly why is it MY JOB to appeal to THEM? WHY? Because they "won?" Go back and re-read #1 on this list. Now tell me again why I should go 'splainin' myself to them. Fuck that. I don't have any explaining or reaching out to do. They want a fucked up country? Let 'em have it. I don't have any use for people with the blood of innocents on their hands.

I'm just wondering if there is anyone here left who feels the same way, or if we have all succumbed to this strange "well here's what we do wrong guys" or "oh that's it, the death of the Democratic party forever" bullcrap.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. *big hugs* I hear ya, sister! My FIL is a RW fundagelical pastor

I can't be going around and calling him names and being unkind to him just because we have differing views on politics and such. But I still owe it to MY values to tell him what I think.

------------------------------------------------------------
Help expose the election 2004 voter fraud today!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[mumon]

2. I don't quite feel the same way...

Yeah, evidence points to the fact that the vote might have been hacked.

But please try to walk and chew gum at the same time: we need to expand our base, and while I agree we can't out-bigot a bigot, we should still be able to expand our base without sinking to the sewer in which the Republicans inhabit.




Check out my blog:

http://mumonno.blogspot.com

[Vincardog]

9. We do not need to expand our base. We have the majority. We need a fair

vote count. F the bigots

[alittlelark]

34. Our base is indeed big enough....what we need are some

Political leaders with the balls to start shouting FRAUD!

I do not accept that over half of the people in this country are brain dead morons, but for those who are FU.

When it comes out that the election was stolen, what then?

[Vincardog]

85. That is why I am pushing The Paper trail for votes. As long as they contro

they control the vote count they control the election. When Fraud is shown Kerry wins. But then he will have to clean up aWol's mess.

[Vincardog]

3. We do not need to out bigot the bigots. We need to get behind

the bills to insist on fair elections and voter verified paper trails. Let bush BURN

[tigereye]

4. screw the radical right-wingers

we need to talk to the non-right wingers who voted for B. I think there were a lot more of them. We also need to start organizing sooner and working harder. JMO

[dmkinsey]

26. with respect to starting early and working hard

I submit that we DID that this year. At least in my congressional district. We started in June and worked our butts off all summer. This campaign was the biggest thing that's ever been done here.
It paid off too. We won our county and state.

[MISSDem]

32. The Republicans have been working

since the 2000 election. We need to start earlier.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

33. You actually think WE weren't?

You were wrong below about another issue.

Who did you vote for?

[KoKo]

87. A kick...........

[tigereye]

91. we did too, here in Pa.

I did some canvassing for Move-on and I think it was very effective. But we need to do it as effectively and obsessively as the Reps do. That was what I meant. :)

[Paxdora]

48. YOU talk to them...

I've always had little patience with the willfully ignorant and mental morons...

[tigereye]

92. I know,

I exhibit patience for a living, so I guess that makes sense.

[EstimatedProphet]

5. Hell yes!

Agreed on all points!
If we hate what they stand for (which most of us do) then why should we become what they stand for? Just because they win (IF they won) doesn't make them right. Hitler won his elections too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. no, not all of us have sucumbed

by the awy from some people even some Pukes smell a rat regarding the election

that said, the DLC NEEDS TO GO, and go to the RNC, that is where tehy belong

By the way, some useful thigns you can do RIGHT NOW

Promise yourself NOT to help this economy beyond the most basic stuff we all need.

I mean that.

HTat is the first step and take cafe of yourself and start saiving

Regarless if we can prive they stole it or not, plan for worst case and the next depresion.

Oh and as to biggots, I agree with you... nobodhy can out bigot a biggot, we take taht road, we will see death camps, count on it

[lutherj]

30. I agree: "Make the economy scream" to quote a little Nixon. n/t

[Nite Owl]

7. Not I

Haven't succumbed one bit. I see no reason to change anything. What exactly are we supposed to reach out to? They are wrong. Period. I am not a morally corrupt liberal just because that is what say. If the democratic party isn't fighting back I am totally ready to find another party to call home.

[dmkinsey]

8. You rock

I'm with you
Not gonna reach out
retch maybe
reach out, no

[flobee1kenobi]

61. not i

Yes-this election was rigged, as was the last one, but THEY control the voting devices. Until that changes, the voting will continue to be rigged.
No-we do not need the homophobic immoral right on our side.

they rigged the election
they control the voting
they are not going to give up that control

item #3 is the whole problem-that is what has to change
if it doesn't-its Jeb in 08'

[mopaul]

10. i'm with you

screw appeasement, i'm too pissed to be diplomatic with nazis

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

13. I always knew you rocked

mo

[alevensalor]

11. I'm with you 100%

I don't think we should pander to them, or start using their bigotry to unseat them. We do that, and we're not just as bad as they are, we're worse. Worse because we know what we're doing, and we stand for something more important, and giving that up is shameful and weak.

~A!

[movie_girl99]

12. A F'ENMEN!!!!!!

I will not conform to what they think I should be!! NEVER!!! This is America....I can be whatever I want!!!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

16. See?

That's exactly fucking it! I'm not going to compromise who I am or tone it down to win over some right wingers.

A) It isn't going to work.

B) I thought this was a free country.

C) It's just a way of keeping us quiet and seated. Forget it.

[aden_nak]

14. I believe we won. BUT.

But. We won, at best, by one state. Maybe two. And when you look at things from an economic, social, and moral viewpoint, we should be carrying 90% of the nation every election. If there were any semblence of common sense in this country, the Republicans would be about as influencial as the Reform party. But that's not the case.

The truth is that even if we won the 2004 election, we still won by the narrowest of margins, and we still got our asses handed to us in the Congressional races. Narrow victories are great when that's the only alternative. But they don't have to be.

I don't think the Democrats should appeal to bigots. I don't think we need to change our core values. I DO think we need to re-examine a few of the stances we take (gun control is one of them, since it's the only time the Democrats have ever been on the prohibition side of an argument). I also think we need to find a new way to deliver our message, since apparently half the country isn't getting it.

Because I simply am not comfortable with winning by 2-3%. It's too tight. Too narrow. Too easy to steal.

[Carni]

75. Ok I will agree with you on the gun thing

Partially because I think it hurts us tremendously amongst normally "socially moderate" voters... but mostly because since bush has taken his throne my thoughts on gun control have changed dramatically (for obvious reasons!)

[aden_nak]

77. There are plenty of reasons to rethink gun control.

And, incidentally, this is coming from someone who does not own a gun, has never had a strong interest in guns, and has really only fired a gun a few times in his life (in other words, I don't have a wall of shotguns in my basement or the Second Amendment tatooed on my ass). I just think it's funny that with any other social problem, drugs, alcohol, prostitution, gambling. . . we agree that prohibiting it only works to a point, if at all.

We understand that treating the SYMPTOM does not make it go away. And we also understand that the current prohibitions are often the cause of so much of the suffering surrounding said activity. I think the problem is that no one understands WHY guns are such a difficult issue in America. No one understands why we have so much more gun violence than other nations that have just as many people, just as many guns, and just as bloody a history. So like Freepers in the Clinton Library, we're seething with blind rage, and want to lash out at anything within arm's length.

Now, I think there need to be SOME restrictions. I think we need to completely re-classify what we consider to be an "assault weapon" because our current system is absolutely stupid. A weapon can go on and off the "assault weapon" list depending on whether it has a scope, a laser sight, a flash muzzle, or a retractable stock. And I DO believe in restricting military hardware, including what people generally think of as "assault rifles".

The truth is that most Americans agree with that, as well. Hell, even amongst the NRA, there is strong support for restrictions of military hardware. Unfortunately, that's the silent majority of gun owners. Well, the funny thing about silent majorities is that they may not speak up, but they sure as hell do seem to vote.

Maybe it's asking a lot of America to want a reasonable law that appeases the vast majority of citizens while simultaneously protecting those same citizens from excess harm. Maybe that's an unreachable ideal. I've always thought of the Democratic party as the party that brings impossible ideals within the reach of every American. Maybe I'm wrong. I certainly hope not.

[KoKo]

15. I totally agree. The "navel gazing" is premature. But, I know some folks

are devastated by this, and maybe it's their way of Moving On...the way some folks have to examine a tragedy piece by piece after it's happened to try to make some rational sense out of it.

But, some are trolls who are spreading the Rove Meme, that the country is turning Fundie and half the country voted for that maniacal idiot because he represented morality and values which they want to see in a President.

Those folks who think Bush represents values and morality haven't read Kevin Philips book about that family or the numberous others about what "baby Bush" has been involved with or even gone to the theaters or Blockbuster to rent Farenheit 9/11 if they can't bother to read and inform themselves.

You are absolutely right, but for the two reasons I stated, I think these posts will go on until it's been worked out and run it's course. :shrug:

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

19. Yeah

and I honestly have started to scratch my head and wonder about the true motivation of SOME posters who have insisted a bit too strongly on repeating stuff I have heard too much from the right.

Ahem.

[MISSDem]

17. I don't think we need to do much of anything different exept

get more Democrats registered to vote and to the polls next time. Bush only won by a little over 2 percentage points. How close can you get. We just need to try harder and get more organized. Bush's workers were volunteers and Kerry's were hired - the difference in who cared the most?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

23. Excuse me??

Did you accidentally type that backwards?

Actually bush's people were often paid ($75 a day) and Kerry's people consisted of TONS of volunteers all over the country.

[truth2power]

65. Ha ha. Bush's workers volunteer???

I talked to someone election day who said he was being paid by the Bush campaign to be a challenger.

[lovedems]

18. I agree with you 100%

I won't ever try and appeal to a backwards looking bigot. Never. I guess I am a true liberal elitist because I think Bush voters are stupid idiots. I don't want to move to the center. I want to move back to the left. Some may accuse me of being in denial because I don't think there is anything wrong with my party. The only thing I would like to see change is the qualifying of our positions. Instead of saying I am personally against abortion but...I want people to scream that we are pro-choice and there isn't anything wrong with that. I don't want anymore I am against gay marriage personally but...I want people to scream that we are pro-equality! There isn't anything wrong with supporting gay marriage! No more qualifying just 100% clear support.

Other then that, there isn't anything wrong with my party.

[lutherj]

20. Agreed. We just had a popular two-term presidency before this

one, Al Gore won the popular vote in 2000, and nearly 50% of the voters just voted for Kerry. We don't need any stinkin' advice from republicans, for sure. If anything, we need to move to left, and find candidates who aren't afraid to claim that ground.

[seabeyond]

21. i looked hard and read slow to find something i disagree

with you on. and you know what, agree with it all

told fundie friend today, as we are called not christians and no values,............we are working our ass off quoting bible trying to figure fundies out doing research, why, cause that is who the dem is, the intellectual elitist, the one that goes after info to solve a problem, now tell me my friend, how many of your fundie friends try to understand me, listens to me, researches me. not a single one. they simply tell me to shut up. i am wrong they are right cause god is on their side, regardless how much their arguement doesnt make sense

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

27. Exactly

how much reaching out to YOU do THEY do? Don't THEY want to expand their base, too?

Or are they not worried because they've got election rigging on their side?

[July]

22. Sign me up! Couldn't agree more.

The fact that ANYONE had trouble voting or can NEVER know if their vote was properly counted is a national disgrace.

Our principles are what make us the better alternative. Being surrounded by bullies isn't an argument to become one. I'm sorely disappointed right now, but I'm not buying this crap that the right is reaching out to us, and that we must show our willingness to work with them. They're lying to the American people, they're looting the treasury, and they're killing our kids and other nations' kids, and calling us traitors when we don't want to get on board with that agenda. SCREW THAT. I've got to live with myself.

Adding: They've cussed one of our senators, smeared several of them, and mocked our candidate's looks, education, wife, and service. There's no percentage in it for us to expect them to be sincere in talking about unity. They're petty and childish. I ALWAYS walk away from people like that.

[hippiegranny]

24. checking in

I am so on the same page with you, Moonbeam. Before we go around trashing our candidate, second guessing the campaign, and outlining all sorts or preposterous ideas about reaching across the aisle, (other than to slap them upside the head) I want to be at least 99% certain we didn't get cheated again. With all the stories coming out and all the scenarios that just don't add up to a Pinhead victory, I don't think I'll be bashing Kerry or hugging a bigot any time soon. If we don't get to the bottom of the Voting Fraud scandal, there is no point in talking about the future of Democratic politics.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

25. You put it so much better than I did!

Thanks hippiegranny (great screen name too!).

[July]

37. hippiegranny, I think you're on to something

"If we don't get to the bottom of the Voting Fraud scandal, there is no point in talking about the future of Democratic politics."

From now on, when a winger talks to me about getting behind "my" president and working with Republicans, I'm going to say that THEIR party actively suppressed the vote in numerous ways, and I'm not going to work with them until THEIR party isn't afraid of a clean vote.

[DemExpat]

52. I agree and take this stance at this time!

Well said,

:kick:

DemEx

[Dora]

28. Absolutely!

I think there's too much talk, too much thinking. It's obvious how egregiously stolen this election was. It's time for us to pay attention to those things that concern us most, conserve our energy, and then decide what to do.

AS far as converting others is concerned: 1) everyone I socialize with shares my opinions. 2) I'm not interested in changing the opinions of others I work with. 3) I'm certainly not interested in changing the opinions of my in-laws or others in my family who drank the kool-aid. If they want to know what I think or how I feel, I'll tell them.

I only have so much energy, and I'm putting it into two things:
1) paying attention to stories of voter fraud and
2) being a first-time mommy. I'm not going to let my election anger have some sort of psychic consequence on my unborn wiggler. I will have a happy baby, dammit!

[jzodda]

29. I'm just as sick of this "sore losers" attitude

1. The election is over, get over it. All the evidence of fraud is not big enough to overthrough 150,000 votes in Ohio and 3.5 million votes in a popular vote. The campaign tent has folded, the staff has gone back to their lives, its over....

2. So yeah we need to think about why we lost....You are in denial.

3. We do NOT need to talk to right wingers, or appeal to bigots. We do need to find ways to get the votes in Red states that are not that "red" like Florida, Ohio, Nevada, New Mexico, Missouri, ect...There are people there that would support us if we had a better messenger..a better standard bearer...Like Bill Clinton was for example.

The Dem party is not dead, it just needs

New leadership, inspired leadership. Rove beat us this time, next time we can win....

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

31. The number of votes is NOT an issue

when it is a matter of a few keystrokes. You act like they'd have to go in and manually do something to all those votes.

Nope.

It's far, far easier and faster than that.

How do YOU explain bush receiving far more votes in one county in Florida than there are even VOTERS in that county?

And where it happens in one place, how do you assume it doesn't happen in others?

Until these issues are settled, everything else is academic.

You go on with your navel gazing.

How sick of any attitude can you be around here with six posts?

[jzodda]

35. Yeah thats been widely reported

and it changed a few votes....It "is" about numbers and there were campaign attorneys at almost every polling place in florida.

thats why the campaign has ended and the campaign lawyers and staff have gone back to their jobs...

Its over and you are in denial

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

42. If you want to give up

when there is widespread evidence of vote tampering, if you want to sit down, shut up and be the good little quiet obedient Democrat, you go right ahead.

That's not for me.

[jzodda]

51. Your right

I want to give up and I already have moved on...If you want to keep fighting this thats cool. I hope you and the rest of you guys prove me wrong...I really do.

Me? I am going to get going because we have a lot to fight over the next few years. I do not want them to get to 60 in the Senate in 2006 and we have a US Supreme fight coming...

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

57. You say on your website you are an attorney---

what field do you practice in? There in New York?

[jzodda]

63. Mostly general practice...but

I fell down a staircase in Queens NY on the way to a mets baseball game last year and lost my job in Manhattan because I couldnt walk so I couldnt commute to the city from Westchester. Now I am mostly better and looking again for a new job.

Its been a rough year...I was hoping a kerry win would be a good luck sign for me, but now im depressed lol

so if you could overturn the results Ill throw a party

O and yeah I was an attorney for the campaign...Please dont be too hard on me because of it...

[requiem99]

36. 6 posts eh? Methinks a communist agitator in our midst!

And btw, I disagree, I don't think bush got the popular vote by anything near to 3.5m, if at ALL, and after looking at all the electoral fraud in the key states, I think its safe to say it was repeated in other states with op-scan and other electronic voting methods.

It's not denial to want an investigation to find out the facts, it's American.

[VelmaD]

50. communist agitator?

:wtf:

[requiem99]

55. Monty Python quote, since I can't tell the person what they really are.

Anyone saying "You are in denial, its over" with 7 posts is not going to get very far, considering the amazing amount of evidence we have that says the opposite. It is NOT over just because Kerry won't fight.

[VelmaD]

60. Wow. I'm so ashamed...

that a Python reference went right past me.

[Paxdora]

39. GET OVER IT???

lemme give you some advice, since you're such a newbie. Real democrats NEVER use that Freeper expression. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt right now, but you got my hackles up...

[Mandate My Ass]

43. why not just say 'sore loserman' and be done with it?

Because you're quite transparent. We "got over it" in 2000 and in retrospect that was a huge mistake. There is evidence that the fraud has only gotten worse since then.

Get over yourself.

[MISSDem]

44. I thought Kerry was a good standard bearer. I mean he

came so close in spite of the smears and lies done to him. And there was so much about Bush that he simply did not have time to reveal to the American voters.

[July]

46. If one more "Democrat" uses the term "get over it,"

I'm offering Remedial Awareness of What Party Uses That Term 101. It appears that DU will fill several sections of my class. Register early!

[Roxy66]

38. My same feeling!!!

Whats with all the questioning of our beliefs!!!!

[In Truth We Trust]

40. EXACTLY Moonbeam........ My sentiments exactly

we have only begun to fight. any deviation from outing the fraud and restoring democracy is wrong. this phase of our battle is and must be about using the system to our advantage and that means taking on a recount and insisting on an audit.

[Burma Jones]

41. Well, from up here in the Northeast, it does kinda seem like

a lot of us have a certain distaste for the rest of the country. A lot of us have never seen a church that looks like a Wal-Mart, yet they're legion in the rest of the country (we do have them in Maryland though, and it FREAKS my Westchester County NY Sister-in-Law out). There is NO country music radio in New York City. NASCAR?, well maybe in Jersey.

But, I was born in Indiana, half my family is in Texas and the other half is in Tennessee or Oklahoma and I know what you mean. My little branch of the family tree is educated, confident and prosperous, and thus, Democratic Party Members. However, we do not get on well with the rest of the family, primarily because we married Jews and Catholics but also because we have better jobs and better cars and live in better places. The reason is because....My Dad took advantage of the GI Bill - a Democratic Party idea - all the way to a Doctorate. I was given Student Loans, Pell Grants and other Federal student aid at the very last minute before Reagan started dismantling those programs.

It may be as simple a thing as having someone like you as a candidate. It may have just simply been that John Kerry was a very wealthy man married to a stylish woman with a foreign accent that inherited half a billion dollars..........

[July]

53. Problem with that view:

What is "someone like you?" This is a diverse nation. Period. Just because some chunks of it have more homogeneity than others does not mean we are not diverse.

George W. Bush is a multimillionaire. Teresa Heinz Kerry's wealth was considered a positive by Republicans when she belonged to their party. And Kerry is a lot more like the rest of the country than Bush is, despite JK's wealth and foreign-born, stylish wife.

[Burma Jones]

69. I was talking perceptions

and, unfortunately, perception is reality. "Someone like you" meant someone that knows and understands the Right Wingers. I think Kerry knew and understood these folks, but that didn't get across. If there's a problem, it's in perception, and the only way I know how to deal with that is to either really do a good PR job and have another Clintonesque type or to talk to enough people to sway those few we need to swing the balance of power back our way.

Your comment is right for just and thoughtful people. Just and thoughtful people seem to constitute about 49% of the voting populace.

[Robeson]

45. Agree, thats why we are the opposition. If...

...we agreed with Republicans, there would be no need for a Democratic Party.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

47. Again

someone more succinct that myself!

Thank you.

[Skidmore]

49. I agree with opposing bigotry; however, not all conservatives

are bigots or agree with bigots.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

Well if they voted for bush

they voted with and for bigotry.

Period.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

99. We WON the last 4 prez elections. Must...fight...PROPAGANDA.

Look. 75% of Bush supporters believed his Iraq lies and many didn't know where he stood on many other issues. Thanks Fox! (Numbers from the P.I.P.A. report)

Ignorance+Propaganda=Bad Decisions.

SO MANY OF THEM ARE REACHABLE. Hardcore Christian fundies simply need to be reminded of what Jesus preached, namely, the OPPOSITE of Bush policies.

I have a homophobe relative who I keep talking to so that's my template for civic discourse to educate our Fallow Merkins.

As for the Media Propaganda Matrix, that's a hard one.

Our airwaves have been sealed off from us and only celebrities get time at Leno or Letterman's desk. I say we appeal to them to get out The Word of Hijacked Democracy as a way to keep the candle of the Reality-Based Community from being extinguished.

“To do evil a human being must first of all believe that what he's doing is good... Ideology - that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination. That is the social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes, so that he won't hear reproaches and curses but will receive praise and honors.”
-Alexander Solzhenitsyn

[Qanisqineq]

62. exactly

and if we go about calling everyone names all the time, how are we any better?

[City Lights]

54. I'm with you my friend.

:hug:

It is likely that the _pukes stole three elections from us.

I don't understand why so many are reluctant to even look at this more closely. If all these irregularities can be explained, I'll gladly move on. Until then, I'm going to continue to follow the odor.

[LibertyorDeath]

56. Well how long do you think the Republicans would tolerate

The 3 largest Electronic vote counting companies being controlled by
Democrats and offering NO Verification of the Votes cast.

Not for a nanosecond.

Are we insane why is the Democratic leadership allowing this.

I'm with you 110%

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

58. EXACTLY

everything people are suggesting that we do are things repukes would NEVER DO and NEVER STAND FOR in a million years.

Cheers.

[Senior citizen]

59. Kerry won my precinct in a landslide.

Except for Idaho and some Confederate South states, I believe that Kerry won in a landslide everywhere else and the a true recount will show that BBV and other types of election fraud were responsible for any apparent * lead. More votes than registered voters? It didn't just happen in Ohio and Florida. It happened in small precincts in every red state, and Bev's team is going to prove it.

Anywhere the vote was close, I believe the problem was that there was no viable anti-war candidate. The Green Party lost ballot access in 6 states due to people like me who voted for Kerry, and I feel guilty and ashamed and am going to work as hard as I can to strengthen the Green Party so that in future elections I can have an anti-war candidate, viable or not, to vote for. The hell with politics--I'll have to answer to my maker on this one.

[aprillcm]

64. Right there with you!!

Look we do not know what happened yet the election has not been certified. I am not going to wring my hands and worry about making peace. Would the Bush Republicans have done this would they be saying oh my oh my what do we do now or would they be pissed...

If Kerry has won they would be making plans to launch investigation ella Clinton into his life.

We may not have control but most of are far from stupid and the Internet has its own kind of power as my 17 yr. old daughter is always reminding me.

The Fat Lady has Not SANG yet people.

[surfermaw]

66. I'm with you

We didn't do any thing, the uneducated , uninformed welfare state voted for religion instead of their economic needs, and the only thing that will change the south's minds is a depression... I have lived in North Carolina since 48 and the only one that I have been able to change is my husband or should I say George 1, changed him when he refused to allow people a few more weeks of unemployment, he rose from the couch and said I am in the wrong party..and supported Clinton.

[seraph]

67. We dont need to do anything different

To quote The Clash : "Give 'em enough rope"

[Hubert Flottz]

68. I with you!

They started all this shit let them deal with it! I do think I might start preaching though! Look at all the good shit them preachers get and hell, they only work one or two days a week! And when they do work they don't really do nothing! I think that's the life for me! GloWry!

[Carni]

70. I am with you 100%

The only thing I will concede is that bush DOES have control of the media and they are his "filter" (to quote the asshole himself)

Just because 50% of the people who DID vote...voted for HIM
(if indeed they did)that doesn't mean the Democrats should re-tool themselves to be like the Republicans IMO.

IF the elction wasn't rigged (BIG IF IMO)Basically all the results proved to me is that 30% of the country backs bush and that is about it...

We need to concentrate on fair elections and fair media as far as I am concerned, because the rest is all hand wringing and posturing in an appeal to try to please that 30% that backs bush -- and those people would not budge no matter what we did so what's the damned point?!

[areschild]

71. I agree with you!

I'm also sick of hearing how we have to be "nice", while the Repukes lie and steal and slander good people. There's more I could say on this, but I just start getting upset again.

[Laelth]

72. Hear, hear.

We could have run Thomas Jefferson this time and still lost. R's control the media and probably rigged the vote too. Nothing wrong with Kerry or the Democratic party. Something's deeply wrong with American democracy.

-Laelth

[Greylyn58]

73. Agreed!!

:kick:

[truebrit71]

74. I agree 100%....

Fuck the thievin' bastards that stole the election.
They have the nerve to subvert the people's intentions and then tell US how to behave, and what we need to change?

I don't fucking think so.


How about we change nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada.

Well, maybe ONE thing. No more e-voting.

Paper ballots all the way....then we'll see who has to "change" their message...


Screw the right.

Twice.


Sideways.... :mad:

[The Minus World]

76. I'm with you on this one.

All of this talk about Democrats "finding their values" is hilarious. Our values have always been static and readily identifiable - yet, they are distorted in the right-wing wind-tunnel, and hardly ever represented in the mainstream.

Modern Democratic values include the dispensation of the truth, and acceptance and understanding over xenophobia and bigotry. The pursuit of raw information, rather than spin; the love of learning and analysis; the little tolerance for the bombast and self-inflation of the GOP - that's what attracted me to this party in the first place.

If our move is to scrap those concepts and move towards an exclusionary party, dropping our variegated constituents like weighted sandbags as we attempt to ascend to the heights attained by GOP hypocrisy, we will become as unappetizing as the party we aim to defeat.

Not to mention the fact that we won.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

79. Great post

I totally agree. The we need to find our values crap is just that--CRAP.

[WLKjr]

78. Rock On!

You can't out bigot a bigot.


Maybe change the way we dems go about trying to get people to vote for us, and start hammering the right wing really hard. I posted about this a while ago, maybe you can take a look?

Here are some of MY Talking points that cannot be argued further by Republicans, it burns them and burns them good.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2606994

[rockymountaindem]

80. I agree, however...

making our message more visible couldn't hurt. I don't think finding ways to condense and communicate our message is a waste of time. I agree with you though that this is no time to reevaluate our beliefs. They are fine and I do think most people can identify with them. However, I think that being more hard-hitting when communicating our message would really help us.

[GingerSnaps]

81. Hallelujah Sister

It's all part of their plan. We didn't do anything wrong and we need to stand our ground on this issue.

:hug:

[MissB]

82. It is not a matter of "finding our values"

It is a matter of *knowing* our values. It is a matter of making clear, through the use of the English language, that *our* *Progressive* *values* are good.

Walt Starr and others aren't talking about changing the values of the Democratic Party. They are talking about *us* knowing - as in being able to *articulate* - our values. And using language, much like the frickin' far right wing has done, to get our messages out to the American people.

Keep your anger. Keep your fire. Don't change your values. Express them better.

I know in a previous thread, weeks ago, I suggested to you to check out George Lakoff's book. The title is : Don't Think of An Elephant! Know Your Values and Frame the Debate: The Essential Guide for Progressives

Damned good book, and a whole lot of people around here are trying to get others fired up about it. It has NOTHING to do with CHANGING a single VALUE. Please. Check out the book.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. I do!

I think there are ways we could have made the election tamper-proof, but I'm quietly spreading information about fraud.

[Straight Shooter]

84. I will show Repubs the same mercy they show the environment

Which is to say, less than none.

These people's brains simply do not function with any appreciable degree of cognitive resonance. Whether television taps a part of their brain that succumbs more easily to propaganda, whether they are genetically inferior and prone to idol worship, whatever the problem is, logic does not work. Facts do not work. Evidence does not work.

All they understand is the whip. That whip must be in the form of nonappeasement, noncompromise, and economic punishment.

Show no mercy to the merciless. God shall approve. This Earth, not mankind, was His favorite creation and the bush supporters are destroying it.

[patdem]

86. Ya know...normally knowing I will be the last poster I don't post to a

very long post...but I think this is a very IMPORTAMT post...I agree too much about what you say..and I have seen people here..I think they are freepers who were sent in here to set us up?? maybe SOME?

Anyway...you are correct on every point..and the reason Democrats are Democrats.

[annabanana]

88. yer on the money, honey!!.............n/t

[wellstone_democrat]

89. You are my favorite human being right now

And, if I recall correctly, we live in the same red, red state. I know what you are talking about and have been disgusted by the "throw them overboard" talk about other human beings and their struggles.

We are not wrong. I will not stop struggling for what is right.
I'm with ya.

[Imalittleteapot]

90. "the death of the Democratic party"

Just more right wing spin that some of us (NOT ME) are buying. They want us to give up. Well, it's not happening and it will never be possible as long as we don't let it.

I'm with you. It's not our job to appeal to them. We offer an alternative. If they don't want it that's their friggin problem. Hell, they are not trying to reach out to us. Look at what has been happening in Congress for four years. Look at what Bush has done. I can't name one thing he's done to reach out to the Dems.

For those that want to go to Canada to escape what's going on here, I beg that you rethink. We need you here to fight the fight.
Now all we have to do is to figure out how to battle without resorting to the oppositions slimy personal attack tactics.

Through the information I have gotten at DU, I was able to reeducate my Repuke husband into voting for Kerry. Anything is possible!!!!!!!!

Thanks Moonbeam.

[twenty2strings]

93. Build from the inside out...don't give an inch!

As Woody Guthrie once said, "Take it easy, but take it.":kick:

[Butterflies]

94. I think some posters are echoing the TV pundits

[Selwynn]

95. If we won I would be making the same criticisms I make now, and..

..advocating the same party change I advocate now. We need reform in the Democratic party. We needed it whether or not we won the White House this year.

[Arianrhod]

96. John Kerry walked away before all the counts were in.

Other than that, I'd say we did pretty well.

[chefgirl]

97. I totally agree, Moonbeam

I have NO doubt that the pukes stole this election, AGAIN.
I want nothing more than to get to the truth of this fraud, and make all of America aware of it.

However, the odds of having this election overturned are so small as to be nonexistent, and rather than drive ourselves crazy over it, we need to take these next four years, beginning NOW, to fight voter fraud and enact iron clad FEDERAL election standards. My suggestion would be a return to ALL paper ballots. How long could it possibly take to count them?? We have till December 12th right? This is what I think Democrats should spend the next four years fighting for.

We are NOT going to be able to block any of the fucking draconian laws they intend to pass, so we shouldn't even bother trying to. There will be every chance to change all of that once we return to a true Democracy.
Democratic congress people and Senators should expend every ounce of energy they have, for the next four years, in the fight for clean, open elections. Let the Republicans corner themselves by fighting against it.

And on the larger issue of re-examining our values....HA HA HA!
I say Fuck the Right Wing. I do not wish to become what I hate.

WE have truth on our side.
WE are the party with moral values on our side.
WE are the party that values families, ALL families, including those families with two mommys or two daddys.
WE are the party of REAL Christians who recognize that the man, whose name they wear, was all about feeding the poor, housing the homeless and treating all people equally, regardless of their social standing.

In fact, if I were to change anything about the Democratic party, it would be to tell our leadership to start acting like Democrats again, and quit kissing Republican ass!

-chef-

[DireStrike]

98. Agree 100%.

[kayell]

100. I'm with you. There are people here trying to bury a corpse, while

democracy still breathes.