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I heard a sickening Statistic today . can we confirm?

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No Mandate Here. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:56 PM
Original message
I heard a sickening Statistic today . can we confirm?
Every day, the US government and its people go $2,000,000,000 further in debt. A good percentage of the government debt is going overseas, and the value of the dollar is tied to this.

What happens if this debt is rapidly called in?
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yard sale time. n/t
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PatriotGames Donating Member (896 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. Time put some stuff on ebay!
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Used aircraft carrier. NO RESERVE!! n/t
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah. $2 Bil/day from China.
China is servicing a lot of our debt.

Interestingly, a little birdie just told me that they are starting to call the debt. Who knows, in truth.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Saudi Arabia too
They own a huge chunk of this country.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Not any more
The last time the debt ceiling was raised, there were no takers. Neither China nor Russia were interested. Wall Street ended up eating those bonds.

It's anybody's guess what will happen with the next attempted sale of those bonds. Wall Street can eat only so much. If the rest of the world votes "no confidence," the US will be bankrupt.

Goodbye Social Security, NIH, CDC, EPA, and everything else that benefits the human beings who live in this country.
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TexasBushwhacker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yes, China is loaning us money so we can buy their goods n/t
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. sounds pretty close to being accurate
and in debt to countries like China .

We the American people have been put in a vunerable
position by the weakening dollar .
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. These grifters are robbing us blind.
If you have any money you can invest in other countries like Canada, do it now. I mean put your savings and stock investments elsewhere. The money drain will stop them in their tracks. It won't be good for jobs in the short term, but it does give us the opportunity to get into a barter economy that they can't touch.

We are also going to have to look after our fellow people, who might be harmed by this.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. It's OK. When the dollar becomes worthless, we will owe nothing. nt
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Aw, we don't want to go there, do we?
:cry:
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Hey, it's a clean slate, a fresh start.
Getting rid of these parasites might be worth it.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. The Dollar Crashes, Sir
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 09:03 PM by The Magistrate
Interest rates rise through the roof in an efort to restore its desireability to foreign lenders.

This cripples economic activity, and puts under entail to pay these rates a greatly increased rpoportion of government revenues.

This makes it impossible for the government either to stimulate economic activity or relieve the distress caused by widespread collapse of business ventures.

"Revolution is caused by, and succeeds in accordance with, three factors: complete military defeat; complete economic collapse; complete imbecility among the ruling class."
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. What do you think will happen??? I personally think it will be a
disaster..and I am afraid it will happen...This will be Europe's revenge..how else can they keep control on this regime..a great deal of dept is owned by Asia and probably Saudi has their fingers in it.
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demgrrrll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I just read that Greenspan is going to raise rates at least one half point
some are speculating as much as 2 points. If he does go to 2 doesn't that mean we are in real trouble or is that a normal move?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. His hand is being forced.
There is a treasury auction coming up, a big one.
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missouri dem Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Interesting. Link please.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
15. War
In fact, in an obtuse way desperate "war" has already been the answer.

Recall that Treasury Secretary O'Neil was fired after letting it slip that the current value of future U.S. obligations totals $44 trillion. That's 4.4 times one year's GDP (it would be like owing $440,000 in credit card debit and mortgages on an income of $100,000 -- definately a high risk of default).

At no other time on earth has a nation met an obligation of this size. In all other instances of ballooning debt-to-income ratios (never before near our current ratio) the debt was either repudiated outright (resulting in wheelbarrow inflation), destroyed by wars, or resulted in such economic hardship that the hegemon collapsed into inconsequentiality (actually all three unfold in progression). Expect the worst.

The only thing that has kept the dollar afloat is the fact that most of the world's oil is traded in dollars. Demand for oil is relatively inelastic and rising, meaning the rest of the world has to buy dollars before they can buy oil, buoying our currency against deflationary forces. However, things have been growing dicey: The dollar sank to the tune of 30% during Bush's first four years.

Note these words from George Kennan, the father of our post-WWII foriegn policy (this from PPS 23, 1948), which is still very much in effect:

    The US has about 50% of the world’s wealth but only 6.3% of its population. In this situation we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming, and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives.

    We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford the luxury of altruism and world benefaction. We should cease talks about such vague and unreal objectives as human rights and raising of living standards and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better.

If other nations were to call in our debt (or cease to support the dollar either directly or indirectly), then just observe our history these last fifty years. We have not amassed the most deadly force the world has ever seen for nothing.

USG foriegn policy is in major part about punishing those that show signs of opting out of neo-liberal arrangements that benefit the owning class (this the legacy of Nitze, Kennan, et alia). We don't invade Panama, escort a leader out of Haiti at gunpoint, or mine the harbors of Nicaragua because anyone perceives them, in themselves, to be a geniune threat. It's all about crushing the example of alternate models. The capitalist says Greed is Good in one breath and whispers apathy is better in the next -- all the more easy to exploit those who have no hope for a better future!

(One shivers at the symbolism of re-appointing Elliot Abrams, Otto Reich, John Negroponte, and John Poindextor to positions of power, these shatterers of dreams. Recall the sight of storm-troopers at the FTAA meetings in Miami last year. Jack London's The Iron Heel made real. "Alternate" will be brutally repressed wherever it is seen, including here at home.)

I say "War" above, in answer to "what happens if this debt is rapidly called in?". I add that war has already been the answer. Observe Iraq. In November 2000 Saddam decided to switch selling oil for USD and instead priced oil in Euros. In 2001 we had (perhaps LIHOPed) 9-11. In 2002 we had the Orwellian march to war. In 2003 we invaded another country on the pretext "everyone could agree on" (Wolfowitz) that Iraqi possessed some of the most lethal weapons known to mankind. This was a desperate act by the oligarchs that rule us to squash the alternate example that could have led to a rapid unravelling of U.S. dominance if it was left unpunished.

Now the guantlet is down, the line has been drawn. Trust me, the rest of the world wonders in fear what their next steps should be. But it is unlikely that the whole world will roll over with just a wimper.

Given 12 December 2000; Carnahan; the "carpets of gold or carpet bombing" threat to Afghanistan; 9-11; the Patriot Act; Georgia in 2002; Wellstone; Iraq in 2003; Florida and Ohio in 2004 -- it will only get more interesting from here on out. Unfortunately!
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missouri dem Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Great analysis. Care to speculate?
Looks like the attack on the dollar started in earnest this week.
Has Soros weighed in?
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I haven't been paying attention this week
(Post 11-2 blues, ya' know...) Where is the dollar vis-a-vis the Euro and Yen?
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
18. Maybe we become part of China then...
I've noticed our Secretary of State suddenly backing away from Taiwan and saying oh no we don't recognize Taiwan as sovereign and seperate from China...so please don't make us pay!!!

I hope Bush gets an Eviction Notice attatched to the Whitehouse written in Chinese, it would serve him right!
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
20. Check the Debt Clock here
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harpo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
22. we're going to run out of cash in the next 2 years...watch!
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
24. You really think the US would honor its debts?
With this administration in place, the neocons would just say to the rest of the world, "screw you." That's what a bunch of slackers we've become.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
25. "Dollar expected to fall amid China's rumoured selling "-- Fin'l Times

Dollar expected to fall amid China's rumoured selling
By Steve Johnson in London and Andrew Balls in Washington
Published: November 7 2004 19:43 | Last updated: November 7 2004 19:43

The dollar could slide still further, in spite of hitting an all-time low against the euro last week in the wake of George W. Bush's re-election, currency traders have said.


The dollar sell-off has resumed amid fears among traders that Mr Bush's victory will bring four more years of widening US budget and current account deficits, heightened geopolitical risks and a policy of "benign neglect" of the dollar.

Many currency traders were taken aback on Friday when the greenback fell in spite of bullish data showing the US economy created 337,000 jobs in October.

"If this can't cause the dollar to strengthen you have to tell me what will. This is a big green light to sell the dollar," said David Bloom, currency analyst at HSBC, as the greenback fell to a nine-year low in trade-weighted terms.

The dollar's fall comes as the Federal Reserve is widely expected to raise US interest rates by a quarter point to 2 per cent when it meets on Wednesday and to signal that it will continue with a measured pace of rate increases.

Speculative traders in Chicago last week racked up the highest number of long-euro, short-dollar contracts on record. Options traders have reported brisk business in euro calls - contracts to buy the euro at a pre-determined rate

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/257979a6-30f4-11d9-a595-00000e2511c8.html

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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
26. "Dollar expected to fall amid China's rumoured selling "-- Fin'l Times

Dollar expected to fall amid China's rumoured selling
By Steve Johnson in London and Andrew Balls in Washington
Published: November 7 2004 19:43 | Last updated: November 7 2004 19:43

The dollar could slide still further, in spite of hitting an all-time low against the euro last week in the wake of George W. Bush's re-election, currency traders have said.


The dollar sell-off has resumed amid fears among traders that Mr Bush's victory will bring four more years of widening US budget and current account deficits, heightened geopolitical risks and a policy of "benign neglect" of the dollar.

Many currency traders were taken aback on Friday when the greenback fell in spite of bullish data showing the US economy created 337,000 jobs in October.

"If this can't cause the dollar to strengthen you have to tell me what will. This is a big green light to sell the dollar," said David Bloom, currency analyst at HSBC, as the greenback fell to a nine-year low in trade-weighted terms.

The dollar's fall comes as the Federal Reserve is widely expected to raise US interest rates by a quarter point to 2 per cent when it meets on Wednesday and to signal that it will continue with a measured pace of rate increases.

Speculative traders in Chicago last week racked up the highest number of long-euro, short-dollar contracts on record. Options traders have reported brisk business in euro calls - contracts to buy the euro at a pre-determined rate

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/257979a6-30f4-11d9-a595-00000e2511c8.html

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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
27. "Dollar expected to fall amid China's rumoured selling "-- Fin'l Times

Dollar expected to fall amid China's rumoured selling
By Steve Johnson in London and Andrew Balls in Washington
Published: November 7 2004 19:43 | Last updated: November 7 2004 19:43

The dollar could slide still further, in spite of hitting an all-time low against the euro last week in the wake of George W. Bush's re-election, currency traders have said.


The dollar sell-off has resumed amid fears among traders that Mr Bush's victory will bring four more years of widening US budget and current account deficits, heightened geopolitical risks and a policy of "benign neglect" of the dollar.

Many currency traders were taken aback on Friday when the greenback fell in spite of bullish data showing the US economy created 337,000 jobs in October.

"If this can't cause the dollar to strengthen you have to tell me what will. This is a big green light to sell the dollar," said David Bloom, currency analyst at HSBC, as the greenback fell to a nine-year low in trade-weighted terms.

The dollar's fall comes as the Federal Reserve is widely expected to raise US interest rates by a quarter point to 2 per cent when it meets on Wednesday and to signal that it will continue with a measured pace of rate increases.

Speculative traders in Chicago last week racked up the highest number of long-euro, short-dollar contracts on record. Options traders have reported brisk business in euro calls - contracts to buy the euro at a pre-determined rate

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/257979a6-30f4-11d9-a595-00000e2511c8.html

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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
28. No, you liberal fool! Two billion is a total exaggeration
It is a paltry $1.6bil per day. 1.6 billion, why that's chump change compared to how much, um, Halliburton is overcharging the government
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
29. Japan has had it's eyes on Hawaii for a long time...
Wonder how much it's worth in dollars?

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