Question / analogy - gays and blacks

[LTRS]

... this is pretty much for a select few DU'ers (and you know who you are). I have a sincere question:

The year is 2004 and blacks are still not allowed to marry whites, legally, so many couples and their children live together without benefit of marriage.

When the white partner dies and the black partner survives, the white partner's family comes and takes all the property and leaves the surviving "spouse" without a home. This is legal.

Or, the black partner cannot pay the taxes on the "inheritance" of their white partners $75K dollars in equity on the house (that would not have to be paid if it was left to a legal spouse). So, the black partner loses the house. Has to be sold to pay the taxes due.

And of course, they have no legal right to plan the funeral, nor will they receive SS survivor benefits to help makes ends meet without the partners salary. Bummer for the kids, but that's the way it goes.

This doesn't get reported in the press much because blacks are "icky" as far as the majority is concerned. But it happens all the same.

So, inter-racial couples get tired of this and they go to court to win their legal rights. This pisses off the majority because, well, blacks, especially married to whites, are icky people.

So, they pass amendments in 11 states to make sure blacks can't marry whites. All of these states already have laws saying they can't marry, but what the hell, let's make sure those damn courts can't give those inter-racial couples any rights AT ALL. Damn, uppity black folks!

Democrats say, hey, that's not fair! We don't support that. And well, that's about it. Dem politicians make no move to actually help these people get rights, but they DO think it's very wrong to discriminate against them.

Republicans say hey, even though they aren't really working for equal rights for these inter-racial couples, it's WRONG for them to say they support those rights. Let's make that a wedge issue in the campaign. Great idea!

The Dems lose! The media says, it was those damn icky black people!

So question: Should the democratic party get smart, and say, "you know, after thinking about it, we think blacks are icky people too! Now will you vote for us?"

I hope that puts things in perspective for a few of you.

[alevensalor]

1. Kick

:yourock: :kick:

[mark414]

2. i don't like the idea of comparing the oppression of blacks and gays

that is, it's not the same thing

i'm completely in favor of gay marriage but i just don't like the comparison

i can look at a black person and see that it is a black person

i can't tell if someone is gay just from looking at them

no one form of oppression and discrimination is worse than another, oppression is oppression is oppression

i just don't like the comparison is all, flame away if you all wish

[LTRS]

3. You don't like it why?

Do I understand you to say it's because you can "look at a black person" and tell they are black and you can't do the same with a gay person?

That doesn't make sense to me. Why is that a factor?

[mark414]

4. well

like i said, both forms of oppression are terrible and horrible things

and i know that many, many, many gay people have been taunted, brutalized, and murdered for being gay, just like many blacks have been taunted, brutalized, and murdered for being black

both are equally terrible

but the comparison, comparing the current gay rights campaign with the civil rights movement of the 60's just doesn't sit right with me

i can't really explain it, i just don't like it

i guess it's just because if you're black, there's no hiding that (not that someone should have to hide being gay)

but being black is right there, in the open, and being gay is something that's not engrained into your skin, that you can't hide

like i said i don't really know how to explain it, and i've done a bad job so far

i just don't like the comparison

flame away

[Duncan Grant]

5. I thought the comparison was to inter-racial marriage.

You could just as easily switch the black/white roles at the end of the original post. I thought the intent was to compare the cultural bias of 40 years ago to the trauma that LGBT people are encountering today.

Same game, different name.

[mark414]

6. i get the comparison

i just don't like it, that's all

i just think there's a fundamental difference in the two

my mind won't be changed or anything, so there's really no need to argue about this

but i just want it to be clear that i support legalizing gay marriage 100%, and i'm not just saying that so i don't look like a bigot or anything, that's what i really believe

but again, the comparison just doesn't sit right with me

[Duncan Grant]

10. No need to be defensive, mark414.

I hope you'll be able to offer us a bit more than "i just don't like it, that's all" in future discussions about cultural bias. This is in no way a thread that compares the civil rights movement to the gay rights movement. Please read it again before you continue with this emotional and ambiguous critique.

Thank you.

[bill grasso]

8. We're just talking about HATE here..

they fear what's different and they hate what they fear.. gays, blacks, l-i-b-e-r-a-l-s and "furiners" are all the same to the right..

[foreigncorrespondent]

9. Why are you...

...bringing up right wing talking points? This is exactly what the repukes say. And that is bullshit!

It isn't about whether or not you can tell someone is gay, black, Asian, Hispanic, etc. What this is about is equality for all!

Do you even realize that this whole debate is about people who have hearts? People who breathe like you do? People who eat like you do? People who have a job just ike you? People who pay taxes just like you? People who vote, just like you? People who fall in love with someone, just like you fall in love with someone?

And yeah, you are right, oppression is oppression, and it doesn't come different forms, it is all the same, so why bring up the repuke talking points?

[Sapphocrat]

11. Gee, mark...

That's like saying you don't support equal rights for Jews. After all, you can't tell someone is Jewish just by looking at them, can you?

I won't even bring up the Nicole Richie issue.

[mark414]

12. i said i couldn't explain it

and i obviously can't

i'd appreciate no one putting words into my mouth

i just don't like the comparison, end of story

[foreigncorrespondent]

13. Sorry, Mark...

...you don't get to cop out of your own words that easily.

You have stated right wing talking points, and now you can't explain why? I'm sorry, but if you believe these right wing talking points then you need to explain to us why you believe them.

[mark414]

14. so now i'm throwing out right wing talking points?

yes, i made a mistake in the way i tried to explain myself. fuck if i ever believe right wing talking points. i don't appreciate people trying to paint me as being a bigot. i have already showed my support for gay marriage and full gay rights. i have many gay friends and some of them, but not all, share my views on this. i just don't think the two movements should be compared.

[foreigncorrespondent]

18. Mark...

...no where in any of posts in this thread did I say you were a bigot, did I?

I am not trying to paint you as a bigot. And I resent your implying that I am doing that.

Saying that you can tell a black person just by looking at them, but you can't tell a gay person just by looking at them, happens to be a very long used repuke thing. Now go on tell me I am calling you a repuke as well, and take yet another cop out from answering a question that has been put to you.

[Sapphocrat]

20. Who put words in your mouth?

You said you didn't like the comparison of gay civil rights to black civil rights, because you could tell a person was black just by looking at him/her, and you couldn't tell someone was gay.

Did I get that wrong?

I made the point that -- unless you have some special radar I've never heard of -- you can't tell a person is Jewish by looking at him/her either.

And then I brought up Nicole Richie -- meaning, not every African-American "looks black" -- whatever "looking black" is supposed to mean. (What does black "look" like, anyway? I guess it's whatever a white person thinks it means. Which troubles me.)

Let's try one more example: People with disabled-parking placards on their cars. If the disabled person isn't practically a paraplegic in a wheelchair, s/he gets sneered at by able-bodied people who think s/he's cheating just to get a convenient parking space. Well, my mom has a disabled-parking placard for her car, and guess what? You can't tell just by looking at her that she's got a circulatory condition that is debilitating if she's forced to walk long distances. Are you going to take her placard away because she "doesn't look disabled"?

What bothers me is that you're forming an opinion based on skin color. What bothers me more is that you won't do a little introspection to figure out why you feel the way you do.

It's a discussion board, man. You throw out an opinion, and people are going to ask you why you think the way you do. If you don't have anything to support your opinion -- even if it's just personal experience -- well, saying "just because" doesn't work for most of us.

[justjones]

15. I hear ya, but don't entirely agree.....

You must admit that there ARE similarities between the oppression of blacks and gays.

The whole "Bible" argument was once used to deny blacks humanity just as it is currently with the gay population.

As for not being able to hide you are black opposed to being gay, what about those who were deemed black because of the one drop rule? You couldn't necessarily tell the person was black by sight, hence the whole notion of passing, but once you were identified as being black it was a whole different story. Same goes for being gay.

Although I understand what you are trying to say, the truth is that oppression of any group is all comparable and related as you no doubt acknowledge. However, perhaps you need to look deep inside of yourself and ask whether not wanting the black community's struggle for equality to be compared and/or associated to the LGBT community's struggle has more to do with homophobia that runs rampant in this society, especially in the black community....I know, because although I consider myself progressive, I would be lying if I said I didn't find myself periodically struggling with some underlying homophobic beliefs ingrained in me by that same community at an early age. Mind you, it's not that big of a struggle and it's not that often, but they are there.

Forgive me if I am being presumptuous because that isn't my intention. I'm just keeping it real.

[mark414]

19. i know i know

and my feelings don't have anything to do with homophobia

yes, i still struggle with some underlying homophobic beliefs, as you said you were

and thanks for being diplomatic about this

but cop out or not i just don't like the comparison. it doesn't seem to fit

and if that makes people think i'm throwing out some right wing talking points, and BELIEVING in them, well go fuck yourself because that is not the case at all.

[justjones]

23. No, I don't think you are throwing out right wing talking points....

so I guess there's no need for me to fuck myself, although that's the only way I'm getting any these days, but I digress....:D

I'd just be curious to hear from you a more compelling reason why you don't believe the comparison fits, but on second thought, perhaps you don't need one or maybe because race and sexuality are fundamentally different characteristics, that's the reason in and of itself.

Issues around race, sexuality, class, religion, etc, are so intertwined and complicated. Why we can't just live and let live, I don't know.

[Bluebear]

16. No offense intended.....but

"i can look at a black person and see that it is a black person
i can't tell if someone is gay just from looking at them"

is a famous Right Wing talking point. Parrot it if you wish but I don't see why that makes it different. By the way, many people have been murdered precisely because they "looked gay".

on edit: I didn't see that someone else said you were talking RW talking points. I did it all myself :)

Thank you for supporting gay marriage, not incidentally!

[Sapphocrat]

21. Ironic little anecdote...

Guess who once got attacked becasue he "looked gay"?

Saturday Night Live's Norm Macdonald -- one of the biggest homophobes this side of Laura Schlessinger.

(Wish I could say he learned something from the experience, but he didn't.)

[Ms. Toad]

17. And how many times

have you sat through hateful bigoted diatribes directed at you merely because the person being so hateful can't imagine that the person sitting next to him/her is "that kind of person."

Sometimes it's not such a blessing to be invisible. At least most racists aren't directly vicious, because they have enough sense not to be hateful to your face.

In this instance, the struggle is exactly the same. Interracial and even Black marriages in some instances were not initially recognized at law. Folks got tired of not having their marriages recognized, took it to court, and won.

[LTRS]

22. Oh no doubt

I travel a lot, quite a bit in the South, and have seen folks time and time again launch into gay diatribes not realizing I am gay. I never know what to say except, "I don't think it's right to say things like that."

[noiretextatique]

24. mark, as a black lesbian, i sincerely mean this

i could care less about what you don't like. the comparison is an apt and accurate one.

[queerart]

7. Truley A Great Post! n/t