Deleted message

[Name removed]

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newsguyatl]

1. hey pete

wasn't that YOU earlier today that started a thread on how bad it is for everyone to trash others' candidates...

can you not even take YOUR OWN advice?


on edit: why yes, i'm right, it was you... http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=254766&mesg_id=254766

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newsguyatl]

6. has kerry

apologized for his iraq war vote yet? :shrug:

[GalleryGod]

7. When Kerry & I Were being Shot at You & Deano were WHERE?

:hippie: ???

[newsguyatl]

10. i wasn't

born yet, but HAD i been, and had i NOT been over there fighting alongside you, you better believe i would have been out protesting, supporting you guys...

comparing this to the iraq war vote, though, is like comparing apples and oranges... i'm sorry, in your mind, kerry is excused in his vote for this illegal war just because he is a vet.

[Nicholas_J]

21. What offends people like me and Gallery God

Is that we are OLD enough to know what getting drafted was like, we know that Deans statements about his deferments are bull...

In order to get that medical deferment Dean went to the draft board with medical records stating he was not capable of physical exertion.

In 1972, there were not MRI, and CAT scanners at the draft boards to detect his disk problem, so no Doctor at the board examined him and deferred him. Dean had to apply for the deferment and THEN bring his evdence that he was not capable of physical exertion...

And then he spent months in Colorado skiing.

I got drafted, and finally got out based on medical condition, but they just didnt HAND it to me like Dean is trying to make out.

Another case of Dean spin.

If they guy was just honest about himself and his record as governor I might even consider supporting him if he is the nominee. His record as governor is extrewmely conservative, but even THAT would not be enough for me to not vote for him if he was nominated. It is the failure of Dean and his supporters to answer valid questions about his record and give concise reasons for them that are SO offensive to many who simply will not vote if Dean is the nominee.AND there are tens of thousands, and possibly at least a milliopn who will sit out the election if Dean is nominated.

Given what how that record does not match his campaigning, Dean is simply the one candidate who I will sit out the election over, and I know many more who feel the same way.

Deans ACTUAL record as governor is almost a dead copy of Liebermans current campaign speeches, except that Dean was even more fiscally conservative.

[CMT]

26. if this were the case

the media would be on top of it. You can rest assured. I wonder with your hate of Dean if you will even vote for him if he is nominated? I know most Dean supporters have said they will vote for Kerry.

[Nicholas_J]

28. They will be on top of it

It will be part of the "examining Dean more closely" that the Post and Gwen Ifill have spoken about.

[CMT]

33. Good then

it will be cleared up because I doubt there is any smoking gun there. I accept it for what it is--a medical deferment. I don't begrudge anyone who got that during that war. I also respect what Kerry did during that war. I don't agree with his vote on the Iraqi war but I still respect him as a man. I also have huge respect for Dean.

[newsguyatl]

43. how's

that research coming along for you nicholas? that "fair and balanced" 'research' that you're doing?

last time i checked, kerry's LOSING, BIG time!


you better get to steppin'! i'd HATE to see you fail...

[Cha]

66. Gwen Ifil that right wing suck up.

[Mairead]

93. Jesus, you mean like they're 'on top of' all SmirkCo's screw-ups?

I think I finally discovered what Dean's back problem is: it's called 'spina bifida occulta' which is widely considered a misnomer because real 'spina bifida' is very destructive, but this version is asymptomatic for the vast majority who have it:

Spina bifida occulta is common. A recent study of the available literature suggests that the most accurate estimate is that 17% of people whose spines have been examined have spina bifida occulta. Even though these people have a very slightly increased chance of a slipped disc, very few people with spina bifida occulta will ever have any problems because of it. If a person has no symptoms from spina bifida occulta as a child, then it is unlikely that they will have any as an adult. {emphasis in the original}

Most people will not even be aware that they have spina bifida occulta unless it shows up on an X-ray which they have for some unrelated reason. It is usually just a small part of one vertebra low in the back which is missing.

[veganwitch]

56. was is so dishonorable about CO?

consciencious (oh goddess, spelling!!) objector??

ive never really under stood this at all. i know that apparently the pres has to look "tough" but when everyone knows that deferments were essentially just the fortunate passing the buck onto those that couldnt, at least saying "i cant not in my good conscious agree with this war" takes abit more courage and shows at least some morals.

[Cha]

67. Bullpucky

[Eloriel]

73. "It's not so much what you know, it's what you know that just

ain't so."

That's probably a complete manglement (new word, that) of a fab Will Rogers quote.

we know that Deans statements about his deferments are bull...


And THAT is bull, as you WELL know. You do your candidate(s) SO MUCH HARM by repeating lies, repeating them again and again and again despite being corrected again and again and again. I didn't even read past that line -- and won't. And in fact, you might be the 2nd person I put on ignore.

For the benefit of those who might be inclined to believe such vicious lies about Dean, here, ONCE AGAIN, is the truth of the matter, and I'm absolutely positive that if the following weren't the truth, Dean wouldn't be saying it, because it would be just stupid to try to lie about something so important and so easily checked.

THE TRUTH:

He showed up for his Army induction physical. The Army doctors gave him a 1Y classification because of a bad back which made him unable to run (march?) long distances. THE ARMY TURNED DOWN DEAN.

Then he went skiing for some months. He went on with his life. People want to shame him for having gone skiing with a war going on. I can tell you as someone who lived through that era, married to an Army guy in Nam myself, it was no shame to "get on with your life." I'd not have had any resentment toward him then, nor do I now, and those who think that somehow he should have gone straight into wearing sack cloth and ashes are -- I don't know what they are, but whatever it is, it ain't logical.

If anyone can find that Dean trumped up either his physical at the time or made up all or parts of his story later, I'm sure they will. I'm equally sure that will NOT happen.

Eloriel

[TLM]

91. More of this Dean dodged the draft crap...

"In 1972, there were not MRI, and CAT scanners at the draft boards to detect his disk problem,"

Wow you are really getting desperate. You do not need an MRI or CAT scan to detect an out of wack disk problem. If it is bad something like that an be seen by the naked eye in a psysical, or with a simple x-ray.


"so no Doctor at the board examined him and deferred him."

And your proof that Dean was not rejected at his induction physical?

[Mairead]

95. It's not a disc problem!

Dean stated that it was an 'unfused vertebra'.

I did a lot of research and the only 'unfused vertebra' condition that's a problem is when some vertebra doesn't completely grow together along the dorsal side, producing the condition called 'spina bifida occulta'. That condition is thought to be present in 1 of every 6 people. Most go through life totally unaware of having it, especially if they're poor. Many go through military service unaware of having it, particularly if they're poor. Poor people can't afford to have a doc chase down minor aches and pains (such as the minor pains Dean reports he experienced while running long distances), so they live with them and never discover their 'disability'.

[Cha]

17. Dean was living his life and didn't get involved in that useless

excuse for a war...and I was at home having Babies so my husband got to stay out of it, too!

Thank you for serving our Country but just because someone didn't sign up or didn't go doesn't make them any less of a thinking, caring, person.

Now another fucked up reason to go to war comes along and kerry votes for it.

[Nicholas_J]

27. Another Dean misrepresentation of the October Resolution

But there is NO legal defense that the president could use to state the act was "Vote for the WAR"

This is one more reason to not support Dean. Whele the Democrats were utilizing the act in federal courts in order to get a federal injunction to prevent Bush from attacking without UN support, which is what all of the Dems who started the legal case stated the October Resolution(and those who used the Resolution as a means to STOP the war DID NOT SIGN IT) indicated, Dean was attacking the resolution, so public opinion was so divided that it could not be brought to bear to get the courts to issue the injunction.

[Cha]

65. Well I am Supporting DEan ...I don't listen to your harping.

[Nicholas_J]

83. In another post to another DU'er

You stated you have me on ignore....

I love to catch Deanies not being quite correct.

[Eloriel]

74. Oh, baloney. No one had even heard of Dean then.

I really hope you gather up LOTS of oppo research on Dean and get it to the Kerry campaign and they use ALL of it, because you are WORTHLESS as a researcher. You'll singlehandedly torpedo Kerry.

Eloriel

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

86. Lol.

All that "manglement" will certainly have unintended consequences.

[TLM]

92. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! Ok so let me get this straight...

Kerry and crew voted for the use of force authorization... so they could sue Bush to stop the war.

Then Dean criticized them for voting for the use of force authorization, so that made the leagal efforts to stop the war fail?


Pa-fucking-thetic.

I'd put you on ignore, but your insane desperate ranting has a very ross perot kind of entertainment value.

[CMT]

24. Deano was given a medical defement

and went thru medical school and as a doctor I'm sure saved many lives.

[Nicholas_J]

84. Then why

Is no one crowing about Dean medical school record.

It must have been fairly average to bad for him not to be selected by one of the best hospitals in the area for his residency.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

88. He opened a private practice with his wife.

That's why.

[JohnKleeb]

3. Not a Dean support and not to my knowledge

Dennis K did in New York in Feburary though.
From http://www.kucinich.us/speeches/speech10.htm
and the speech it self and go Dennis


Columbia astronaut Kalpana Chawla is said to have looked upon the earth from the silence of outer space and said to her fellow voyagers: "Look! The whole world is reflected in the iris of my eye." As she watched the whole world, the whole world is watching us to see what is reflected in our eyes, the light of peace or the fires of war. We who gather carry a vision of peace. We see the world as one. We carry a vision of human unity. We see the world undivided. Today and tomorrow we act on that vision.
To those leaders in our country struggling in inner space, those who have war in their eyes and in their hearts and would project it upon the world: The whole world is watching. "Look, the whole world is reflected in the iris of my eye." America is reflected in the irises of a billions of eyes. The whole world is watching to see if the power of our morality is greater than the power which would unleash our weapons. Peaceful coexistence or war. The whole world is watching. A fist or an open hand. The whole world is watching. First use of nuclear weapons or leadership in global disarmament. The whole world is watching. Bombs or bread to the Iraqi people, to the Iranian people, to the North Korean people. The whole world is watching.

Some in the name of peace, prepare us for war, in the name of liberty, prepare us for submission, in the name courage, prepare us to be fearful. Let all Americans challenge war, submission and fear! Some power has ruled there is no permit to march today. Yet we are on the march. The direction of peace is forward! We are on the march. The direction of human unity is forward! We are on the march. The direction of political change is forward. We are on the march. We will either bring an end to war or we will bring an end to a war-like administration. We are on the march!

Two hundred and fourteen years ago the First Congress standing upon the holy ground of a new Constitution met in this city. Their permit came from the Declaration of Independence. The same High Power which entrusted them entrusts us with the Declaration, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. We call upon the Spirit of the Founders to guide us as we create a new world where all may live in peace.

The United States, brought forth by the power of human unity, seeks to be reborn. We invoke the Spirit of Freedom. We hear the cadence of courage echo across the ages: "Life, Liberty, pursuit of Happiness". Once again, the hour has come for us to stand for unity, even as our government tells us we must follow it into war. Once again the hour has come for us to be strong of heart. The direction of human unity is forward. We are on the march. It is our government which must follow, or be swept aside. Thank you.

That said I still respect Kerry and will support Kerry if hes the nominee, my grandmother anti war as me supports him, shes a moderate I thought but I think shes more liberal than I believed her to be, she thinks Dennis would be a great cabinet member, likes Bernie Sanders, and hates Joe Lieberman like a DUer would. She would be forced to vote for him she says though but still. Also Pete I just had to this so non Kucinich supporters can see where we are coming from but Kerry is a good guy, and he didnt get on Tricky Dick's enemy list for no reason. :) good luck

[prolesunited]

8. I like your new pic of Kucinich

That is a MUCH better haircut -- more statesmanlike and less little boyish. Perhaps you can pass it on to the others who are using the older photo? Just a thought.

[JohnKleeb]

12. they changed the picture at the main site

Me and Elsewheres daughter had the same picture and her's has changed as well. Thanks though proles I agree, seems like everyone is talking about my DK pic now, but he was great on the daily show too, "Yes I think Rumsfeld is a robot", my grandmother a moderate but I believe her more liberal than she believes dem said she would support him if he got some popularity, shes for Kerry now, but said she would love DK as Labor secretary or Education secretary. Thats good enough for me. I think her and my grandfather are more liberal than they think; like for instance she likes Bernie Sanders a lot too.

[pnorman]

37. "Not a Dean support(er) and not to my knowledge"

Likewise with myself here in Seattle. I saw Dennis at an anti-war rally; also in February. Later on he was to appear on the speakers stand (along with Jim McDermott), but when I met him, he was still in the audience. I was wearing a button ("Forget The Flag, Burn A Politician!"), which brought a smile to his lips. I saw him again last month at a picket line at SeaTac, in support of hotel workers.

My initial impression then was that of an unimposing person ... almost a shy, nerdy type. It hasn't changed much, and that'll certainly work against him. But slowly his knowledge, determination, and CHARACTER becomes apparent. Let's not get too Menckenian "hip" by sneering at the intelligence of the American voter. At this point, that may be the ONLY thing that will save this Nation. (cf: "Nobody Ever Went Bankrupt by Underestimating the Taste of the American People" -- H. L. Mencken).

Also, ALL the promotional stuff I recently received, buttons, T-shirt, coffee mug, travel mug, was US made and bore Union Labels. That's an expensive gesture, especially from a long shot candidate with little if any Big Buck$ backing. It generally goes un-noticed, which may also be an indication of low-key but steadfast character. But I took immediate notice and am IMPRESSED. I'll be wearing it at the King County Labor Council Labor Day Picnic tomorrow (Woodland Park 11AM~4PM).

[JohnKleeb]

38. Seattle I had no idea he was there too

The only congressperson I saw speak was Cythina McKinney. I am glad you got your stuff Norman, wear it with pride. Well Ive been reading about Dennis's life and hes not that shy and nerdy, and yes they will use it against him but Dennis loves Baseball too, and he was a football quarterback, and hearing him speak hes far from shy. Dennis has protested with unions before as has Gephardt for doing that they earn my respect and their dedication to the unions and remembering their class roots. That also said I think Jim McDermott is a great person, maybe he will endorse Dennis.

[proud patriot]

4. Sharpton is the only one I can think of who did

:shrug:

[JohnKleeb]

5. no DK too :)

http://www.kucinich.us/speeches/speech10.htm

[GalleryGod]

9. I'm So Old I Recall DK as Mayor of Cleveland!

Sporting a White Turtleneck:wow: to City Hall.
Those were the days........

[JohnKleeb]

14. so does my dad and hes a Kucinich supporter now

He was like sure I remember the guy.

[proud patriot]

47. Cool

:-)

[JohnKleeb]

49. very

I think that was great as was his prayer for America speech btw that was so long ago, I dont even think I started my first stint here at DU. Too bad he didnt enter earlier, DK because I really think Will could be right in a way about many of his supporters being attracted to his stance on the way, which is fine because for a brief time before Gore left and Kucinich entered, I considered Dean. That said if you want to rank Kerry, Kucinich, and Dean on what they did on the war, heres my ranking system: Kucinich(1), Dean(2), and Kerry(3), thats no offense to the Dean supporters but I think Kucinich did a lot of good dealing with the war in congress and speaking at rallies.

[G_j]

16. He was awesome in DC n/t

[JohnKleeb]

19. I saw him in October and I would agree

[Cha]

11. I remember that quote from DEan when Will Pitt interviewed him

and so what? That Dean didn't appear at any of the Anti-war Rallies?
What's your point?

And the Iraqi vote was a Big Deal..I thought so at the time and I haven't changed my mind.

The People who voted for it didn't think much of us then why should we think much of them now?

[JNelson6563]

89. you are quite right there dear

I so well remember that vote. It was very, very important. The last time I looked at the TV through my fingers like that was watching the stock markets the first couple days they were open after 9/11.

I will never forget how truly horrified I was when Hillary quit dancing and finally announced her "no" vote. I haven't loved her nearly as much since.

I will never forget the day our Congress passed the buck to Bush. I will never believe they "trusted" Bush, especially not those who have done serious ass investigations (like BCCI).

Those who voted for that resolution that had calls coming in 10-1 against but still voted for.......that was a big fuck you to us and a big wet one on Bush/Rove's ass that translated into "please don't slaughter me in this election"........

Cowards.

Julie

[G_j]

13. IMO neither one is a "peace" candidate

in the tradition of Eugene McCarthy for instance, who by the way did attend peace demos during the Viet Nam war.

For this reason, it seems to me that perhaps supporters of both could take a deep breath and chill a bit over this particular issue.

If anyone is a peace candidate it's DK.

my 2 cents..

[JohnKleeb]

15. McCarthy did thats good did RFK

Even if he didnt he showed his committment to civil rights by speaking to that crowd in Indianapolis about MLK's death. I agree DK is the peace candiate. I never saw him speak at a rally thats because I live near DC but I would had gone to the NYC one had I lived near and hadnt had school.

[Cha]

18. It doesn't matter to me that Dean is not the big Peace candidate

Dean did not think the Iraqi resolution had merit and that's what started me looking at him in the first place... way last year before Dennis even began his campaign! I started with Dean and have seen no reason to jump ship!

[G_j]

25. I'm not trying to make a value judgement

for anyone. Some people really want someone who is staunchly anti-war, others don't. Turning away from dependance on a monsterously huge military as the cornerstone of foriegn policy is a tough sell.


McCarthy like DK was thought of as "too left" by many. Many McCarthy supporters were beaten along with anti-war demonstrators outside of the Dem convention in '68. This is not a new issue for the Dem party.

[JohnKleeb]

31. I support DK as the peace candiate because

If more future Iraqs come up I can trust him to do something about it. He not only feels this war was legally wrong but morally wrong and I think thats just as important. DK is like McCarthy and RFK in different ways. That said in '68 I would had been for RFK but would have liked McCarthy. If we can avoid future unjust wars through President Kucinich's department of peace, it will be worth it. DK has said that his mission is to make war not ineviateful, and imho that is great mission. I wish him the best.

[G_j]

35. I was a McCarthy supporter

though I was not old enough to vote yet.
I did get to shake his hand at a DC protest. :-)

Today I'm DK supporter, though I think most of the candidates are quite decent. We really are lucky to have so many good choices. Perhaps we should count our blessings.

[JohnKleeb]

36. I wasnt alive for obvious reasons

Cool thats great for you. Bobby or Gene McCarthy would had been great presidents. I really have a lot admiration for Bobby, I like Gene too, and another I like and he is still fighting today and although he lost big, hes a bigger winner than Nixon ever was, George McGovern was a WWII vet and a good man too. I am a DK supporter too as you can tell but I do defend Kerry when I must.

[G_j]

39. In truth I was not that aware

of RFK's policies except for his strong civil rights stand. I didn't know much about politics and Viet Nam overshadowed everything for me. Eugene was the one who was there with us.

I have since of course, learned a great deal about RFK and truely admire him.

[JohnKleeb]

41. Thats ok both were fine men

[Orangepeel]

20. Doesn't compute

I don't equate voting to authorize the war with not speaking at a rally.

Dean was very vocal in his opposition to the invasion of Iraq. He called it the wrong war at the wrong time and said he didn't believe that Saddam was an imminent threat. Kerry said that he did believe that Saddam was a threat and voted to authorize the use of force.

Maybe you don't think these things are important. Maybe you think Kerry was right and Dean was wrong. If so, that's your prerogative and you should vote accordingly. I think it is important. That's my prerogative and I'll vote accordingly.

[Cha]

22. Exactly, Orangepeel!

:yourock:

[G_j]

32. I'l have to say that is true

There was a distinct difference in their stands on the invasion of Iraq.

I guess they are closer now, though I'm not up on the details of Kerry's current stand.

[CMT]

23. No, but

he spoke out at his own rallies, he spoke out on national television, he spoke out in magazine and newspaper articles. He spoke out plenty without going to a single anti-war rally. I think DK is the only one who attended a anti-war rally.

I don't hold it against Dean. I knew where he stood on the war and he reached many more people speaking out against the war in the media than he did by attending an anti-war rally. I should add he spoke out in support of people who attended anti-war rallies too.

[JohnKleeb]

29. Sharpton attended at least one

How do I know? I was there.

[Kahuna]

30. I hardly equate any of Kerry's actions with bushco's.... I've never seen

anyone else do that either.

After your earlier thread, I noticed that the only two candidates you seem to not want bashed are Dean and Kerry. What about the other candidates, Pete? Don't they matter? This race is still wide open with the majority of the voters still undecided. Why do you advocate for Dean and Kerry but not the others?

Then as someone else pointed out, you advocate not bashing Dean and Kerry and then you post a negative thread about Dean. What's up with this?

Can't you make your case for Kerry without bashing Dean?

[G_j]

34. whatever someone's feeling is about

Kerry's Iraq vote, no way in hell can he be compared to *. His environmental record for instance is outstanding, as is his record on many issues.
But I'm with you in not being aware of people here making that comparison.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cha]

42. Well, since you aren't a Dean Supporter anyway but say you

are genuinely disappointed in him for not attending a Peace Rally..but are a Kerry supporter.


And I am a Dean Supporter and it does not matter one iota that he did not attend a Peace Rally .

I find your statement a bit disingenous!

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cha]

50. No ..I didn't mean that I thought Kerry should have been

at a Peace Rally! Or that you thought so!

Sorry if my post read that way!

All I'm saying is Dean didn't need to go to those Rallies to make his stance known!

And if you were so against this attack on Iraq how can you rationalize supporting Kerry!

[blm]

70. How can YOU support someone who was for it

under the slightest variation of the resolution as posed by the Biden-Lugar bill?

YOU believe it was an illegal war, yet you support the candidate who was not AGAINST the war itself and did not think it was illegal and did not join with other notable antiwar people in submitting legal positions against it.

[Eloriel]

76. Because Biden-Lugar would've stopped Bush in his tracks

That's why. You, fact-challenged like Nicholas_J, keep insisting that there was no substantive difference with that amendment tacked on and you're just plain wrong.

Biden-Lugar required UN involvement. That's not anything Bush was willing to do, so it would have stopped him (if anything could have).

But in any case, even if Biden-Luger were as you keep misrepresenting it, it STILL wouldn't absolve Kerry of HIS vote.

Eloriel

[Nicholas_J]

82. Biden Lugar had NO power to stop Bush at all

No one does...Sorry Congress cnnot hjalt Bush at all and if LUGAR was a sponsor of the bill, it was something BUSH wanted, not Dems...

All Bush needed to to was to name ANOTHER reason for going to war with Iraq OTHER than WMD's and Biden-Lugar would have had NO authority whatsoever. When Bush started giving other reasons to attack Iraq, congressional demcrats responsded appropriately by ADDING all possible reasons Bush could cite for going to war with Iraq, so that Bush could not attacks suddenly and then cite his reasons after the fact, as the War Powers resolution allows (He can attack anywhere without telling anyone, and has to tell them why he did so 48 hours after the fact under the War Powers Resolution. He has to provide no proofs for his actions, just state his beliefs in a danger to the U.S. and reasoning, as Clinton did when he attacked a "supposed chemical plant" in the Sudan that ended up killing hundreds of innocent civilian workers).

All Biden Lugar did was restrict Bush regarding WMD's, and all other reasoins then became free for Bush to choose, attack, and then present his reasons later.

All Biden -Lugar stated was that gongress would support Bush if He proved the existance of WMD's and Went to the U.N. to make his case.

Under Bush's constitutional powers to protect the U.S. from external threat, as commander in cheif all he had to do was change his reasons for going to war.





Which was why Dean changes his stance to this one:

I have been concerned about his foreign policy stance. He's distinguished himself as the most anti-war candidate extant. But let's see how he says he would do it:

"As I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

Easy to say at this late date, but imagine if we'd gone to the UN in September with a timetable, backed with a clear threat of unilateral action. I think things would have gone rather differently.

Posted by howard at February 20, 2003 11:45 PM

http://www.howardsmusings.com/2003/02/20/salon_on_the_campaign_trail_with_the_unbush.html

So in this case, Dean is admitting that he already beleives Saddam is ARMED,(You cannot disarm if you are not armed) and agrees that HE would attack Saddam unilaterally if Saddam If the U.N. will not do so...

Obviously Dean stance is now FAR more agressive than th October Resolution which does not set a date for the U.N. to exhaust its diplmatic measures an which all of the democrats insited on.

So Dean's position on the war most closely supported Bush's actions.

Bush went to the U.N. and got Resolution 1441 on Novenber 12th 2002. Which means Dean would have attacked in January or February at the earliest.

Dean is again ascribing in his firm as Jello Politics, saying whatever is necessary at the time, in order to get whatever idiot he can to support him.

This is what is so wonderful about the tables being turned on Dean in the media. Dean is soon going to be know as the "Do you want Vemront Maple Syrup with My WAffles" candidate.

THis section of the WAr POwers resolution indicates that the President can and does act WITHOUT CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY:

SEC. 4. (a) In the absence of a declaration of war, in any case in which United States Armed Forces are introduced--

(1) into hostilities or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances;

(2) into the territory, airspace or waters of a foreign nation, while equipped for combat, except for deployments which relate solely to supply, replacement, repair, or training of such forces; or

(3) in numbers which substantially enlarge United States Armed Forces equipped for combat already located in a foreign nation; the president shall submit within 48 hours to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and to the President pro tempore of the Senate a report, in writing, setting forth--

(A) the circumstances necessitating the introduction of United States Armed Forces;

(B) the constitutional and legislative authority under which such introduction took place; and

(C) the estimated scope and duration of the hostilities or involvement.

(b) The President shall provide such other information as the Congress may request in the fulfillment of its constitutional responsibilities with respect to committing the Nation to war and to the use of United States Armed Forces abroad

(c) Whenever United States Armed Forces are introduced into hostilities or into any situation described in subsection (a) of this section, the President shall, so long as such armed forces continue to be engaged in such hostilities or situation, report to the Congress periodically on the status of such hostilities or situation as well as on the scope and duration of such hostilities or situation, but in no event shall he report to the Congress less often than once


http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/warpower.htm

[Kahuna]

48. You got me on this one... I now do recall

the statements you mentioned.

[Eloriel]

75. Sorry, Pete

I think that's just silly. It may be a big deal to you, but it's certainly no deal-breaker for me. It's enough for me that he was always against THIS war for the right reasons, and always spoke up against it even when it was considered by nearly EVERYONE to be the kiss of death politically.

I even read here that before his untimely death, Wellstone was at a fundraiser and someone brought up the war, and he immediately went into defensive mode, starting to say, "I had to vote my conscience," fully expecting people to be angry with him for his vote. And of course, they were not.

You're entitled to your opinion that somehow Dean should be criticized because he didn't attend any anti-war rallies, but the rest of us aren't particularly persuaded.

Eloriel

[UnapologeticLiberal]

44. How is Kerry the same as Bush, Cheney and Rummy?

That is ridiculous! I am a Dean supporter but some of the charges against Kerry are just ridiculous...he "looks French," he hired a photographer to follow him around Vietnam, he is Bush-lite, he lied about being Irish, etc...this is one of the major problems with Kerry, is that the press does not like him, and I can see already that should he get the nomination, they will pick him apart the same way they did to Gore.

[mandyky]

45. Dean is not anti-war, so I wouldn't expect him to

attend anti-war rallies. Post 9-11 I doubt an across the board anti-war candidate could get elected as Commander in Chief.

Dean spoke his mind on the Iraq thing and visited Camp LeJune, just like one would expect from a hopeful commander in chief. Dean ain't running as a "peace candidate" he is running to be president and commander in chief.

[Cha]

51. Yeah, too bad bush doesn't get the 3rd degree about

what he does from the media.

Or the grillin'

Oh, but then he throws BBQs for reporters, too, while the Soldiers are over there being grilled under the Freakin' Iraqi Sun!

[veganwitch]

53. thats funny because

i just heard him say he was "against" the iraq war.

interesting.

[mandyky]

54. Big difference between ANTI-WAR & ANTI-IRAQ-WAR

One word makes a big difference sometimes ;)

[veganwitch]

55. but..

if hes against the iraq war. and all these rallies were against the iraq war.... he could have gone simply as "one of the people" not necessarily as a presidential candidate

[Cha]

58. And what's your point?

[veganwitch]

60. my point

is that he is paying lip-service to his anti-war supporters. my point is that he is playing both sides. my point is that his reply seemed to say that he is not going to go to any event unless he gets to be in the spotlight. if it was really important to him, he could have simply marched amoung the folk and hand out literature, shaken hands etc. instead he didnt go because he couldnt shake his fist from a podium.

need i go on?

[veganwitch]

61. kick

[Cha]

64. Too bad ...we don't care that he didn't go!

All those points you made are useless because nobody really cares ..we know where he stands!

[veganwitch]

71. so you are saying you admit and support...

him being a hawk in dove's clothing.

ok. good to know.

[Eloriel]

81. That's it

You've just earned your rightful place on my list.

You do both veganism and wicca very poorly. I have no more respect for you left.

Eloriel

[veganwitch]

52. talk about passing the buck!!!

i wasnt invite to an open event so i didnt go.

sweet jebus!!!

[Cha]

57. Dean is talking about speaking at one!

I don't care if Dean went to a Peace Rally or not ..he spoke out against the attack on Iraq and you're just nitpicking!

[veganwitch]

59. not nit-picking

just calling it how i see it

[Cha]

68. so do I

[blm]

62. BINGO!

He is never responsible for his real actions or inactions.

He sat it out and collected the antiwar dollars letting the media call him a liberal antiwar candidate for months, while KUCINICH was out BEING the real antiwar candidate, and the media paid no attention to his speeches in front of millions.

[Cha]

63. And kerry voted to send us into the attack on Iraq

[blm]

69. Just like the Dean supported Biden-Lugar bill.

Either bill put us in Iraq.

Hypocrites must be deliriously happy that Biden-Lugar and Dean's support of it rarely gets brought up in the press.

[JohnKleeb]

72. blm defends Kerry against some unjust attacks

That said Kucinich was against the war for many reasons, it was just wrong in the guy's eyes and heart same for me, it was illegal, and the ties to Al Queda nonsense is just that. blm isnt defending Kerry right now. BTW I think what Kucinich did was very admirable, and it was one of his finest hours. Thats why I love the guy, hes willing to stand up.

[Nicholas_J]

90. NO ACT

Was ever signed that Authorized Bush going to war with Iraq unless he went with the United Nations:

SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--

(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and

(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

(c) War Powers Resolution Requirements-

(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.

(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this joint resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.

http://www.kpid.dk/Iraq%20Resolution%20of%202002.htm

Section of War powers Resolution regarding Presidential Use of Military force WITHOUT Delaration of War:


CONSULTATION
SEC. 3. The President in every possible instance shall consult with Congress before introducing United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into situation where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, and after every such introduction shall consult regularly with the Congress until United States Armed Forces are no longer engaged in hostilities or have been removed from such situations.

REPORTING
SEC. 4. (a) In the absence of a declaration of war, in any case in which United States Armed Forces are introduced--

(1) into hostilities or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances;

(2) into the territory, airspace or waters of a foreign nation, while equipped for combat, except for deployments which relate solely to supply, replacement, repair, or training of such forces; or

(3) in numbers which substantially enlarge United States Armed Forces equipped for combat already located in a foreign nation; the president shall submit within 48 hours to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and to the President pro tempore of the Senate a report, in writing, setting forth--

(A) the circumstances necessitating the introduction of United States Armed Forces;

(B) the constitutional and legislative authority under which such introduction took place; and

(C) the estimated scope and duration of the hostilities or involvement.

(b) The President shall provide such other information as the Congress may request in the fulfillment of its constitutional responsibilities with respect to committing the Nation to war and to the use of United States Armed Forces abroad

(c) Whenever United States Armed Forces are introduced into hostilities or into any situation described in subsection (a) of this section, the President shall, so long as such armed forces continue to be engaged in such hostilities or situation, report to the Congress periodically on the status of such hostilities or situation as well as on the scope and duration of such hostilities or situation, but in no event shall he report to the Congress less often than once every six months.


http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/warpower.htm

Sorry, in order for the October Resolution to be consideres a VOTE for War. Bush would have had to have met the requirements of exhausing ALL diplomatic efforts through the United Nations.

OR proove that it was apparant that going to the U.N. would result in creating a situation that was that would place the U.S. in a sitation that would result in threatening its national security.

You must therefore state that you beleive that BUSH MADE HIS CASE in order for the act to have been considered the agent of his going to war.

The October Resolution states that nothing in it abridges the War Powers Resolution which means the reolution itself takes precedence over the October Resolution.

Sorry, it is the misguided and INEPT, and POLITICALLY CRAVEN nature of Howard Dean which has left him into misleading millions as to the nature of the Resolution.


"The bigger the lie, the more they'll believe it"

Adolph Hitler

http://quote.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

[stickdog]

78. Perhaps he wasn't the first person the communists who organized many

of the anti-war events thought of?

[stickdog]

77. No.

Thank God. I like my anti-war demonstrations free of political co-opters.

Dean wasn't trying to piggy back on anti-war fervor.

He was simply expressing his personal belief about how Bush forced us into a war for no good reason.

He was speaking his mind on this when almost everybody else was hiding.

[Starpass]

79. A Virgin Untested Is No Virgin At ALL

It's nice to say "I was a zillion percent against the war and proud of it" when you weren't an elected official sitting in the US Congress and didn't have to vote. But Dean could have put his virtue to the test by not only speaking at, but rallying people in protest. I see he prefers to remain a virgin. Yawn........just another "what's that word"...oh, politician...yep, that's the word.

[welshTerrier2]

80. Pitt's question for Dean came directly from me.

Putting this as succinctly as possible, and please understand I was planning to support Dean at the time, Dean's answer was totally evasive. I also did not like Dean's "60 day" statement regarding the invasion of Iraq ... he knew Saddam posed no imminent threat but was still willing to invade "with or without" support from the U.N. IF bush showed evidence of WMD ... we had no right to invade without an "imminent threat" ... i have since withdrawn my support for Dean ...

but that doesn't make Kerry any better ... Kerry has been pushing this Iraq folly since 1998 ... he also knew there was no imminent threat in Iraq ... and, after listening to Powell's U.N. dog and pony show, he said Powell presented "strong evidence" ... I think Powell presented bush's sack of lies and propaganda ... should this call into question Kerry's judgment ?? you better believe it should ...

i'm looking at Kucinich right now but i really have to say i don't feel very energized by our candidates right now ... and i hate that ...

[CWebster]

85. Did anti-war protestors

camp outside of Dean's offices like they did Kerry's?

[Khephra]

87. After going to the Oct DC ANSWER Protest I'm glad no candidate

spoke at the major protests. I loved them as a protestor, but they were organized by too many controversial groups that might have caused trouble for ANY candidate down the road.

[killbotfactory]

94. I didn't go to any war protests...

I guess my opinion isn't worth shit, then, right?