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So, what do you think should be done about Palestine?

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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 10:07 PM
Original message
So, what do you think should be done about Palestine?
My instinct is that they should have the two state solution, but getting Gaza back ain't gonna cut it.
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feistydem Donating Member (994 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. As soon as Arafat kicks it, go back to the negotiation table with Israel
and start over. Of course, Kerry will have to be in office to have any success.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I really hope something can be done for them.
Yes OBL is their champion, and that's a PROBLEM.

But, there MUST be a solution!
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feistydem Donating Member (994 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yeah, but the world thinks Bush is our champion. What's that say about us?
Edited on Fri Oct-29-04 10:29 PM by feistydem
The world community doesn't distinguish between left and rightwing Americans. Dems or Repubs. As far as most are concerned, he represents us all. Our very own war criminal at the helm.

On edit... let me also add that Ariel Sharon's policies are not embraced by all Israelis either. Many would just like to live in peace with the Palestinians and vice versa.

It's always the extremists who fight to the last man standing over something they think is infinitely more important than it really is.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Sharon is going to have to go before
anything is going to happen. Palestine was granted a state in 1958 by the U.N. They should have their state and the Israelies should get the hell out of Gaza. Mind you this is coming from a Jew so it's not a matter of semitics but a matter of fairness. I lost the link but there is a group of Israeli soldiers nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize for refusing to go back into Palestine to kill "insurgents". They are in the same boat we are, they realized what they are doing there has nothing to do with the "safeguarding" of their country.
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feistydem Donating Member (994 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. I agree with you, from one Jew to another.
Sharon is a lightening rod and cannot achieve peace through his strongarm methods. However, Arafat has failed long before Sharon took power --which is why I think he has to be out of the picture if there is to be any hope.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Sharon isn't the disease, merely one of the carriers.
Israel has held on to the West Bank since 1967; in that time they've had something like 10 different Prime Minnisters, and not one of them has given any serious indication that they will let it go.

People who think Arafat dying will change anything there are kidding themselves. As long as Israel has absolute power in the region, this conflict is going to go on and on, because they aren't going to let go of the West Bank in any way the Palestinians could or would accept.
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tnliberaldemocrat Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. This won't be a popular opinion...
but I don't think the Palestinians deserve their own state.

One, they continue to condone suicide bomings and other terrorist attacks on innocent civilians. Until it stops permanently, a separate state shouldn't even be an option.

Two, Arafat is a terrorist. Pure and simple. I'm no fan of Sharon by any means but I'll rejoice when Arafat finally croaks. The man has been directly responsible for terrorism going back decades. And when he had the chance for a state (meeting with Barak) he turned it down. That clinched it in my mind, at least.

Three, the Palestinians could just as easily move to Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc. There are loads of Arab countries that can take them in. Why do they need their own state? Wouldn;t that just be rewarding them for terrorist acts?
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President Kerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. It's actually a bit more complicated than that--on the Arafat-Barak
negotiations. Clinton describes it wonderfully in his autobiography--which is a must-read for any Dem btw. As for the solution, I think Sharon is well to the right of general population. Palestinians should have their land and Israelis theirs--but unfortunately it'll take at least a generation to undo the hatred (i know that 'cause i have distant family in Israel, and sadly the divide is enormous). I hope i'm wrong.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Palestinians are victims of bad leadership and so are we, and
we have our own homeland, so I don't accept that they shouldn't.
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tnliberaldemocrat Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yeah, but we...
didn't leave en masse and then decide years later that we wanted to come back.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. There Should Be A Two State Solution For Prudential Reasons...
nt
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whirlygigspin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Disney-fy it
One huge theme park, call it, bibleland or wack-berry farms,
or Bo & Peep meadows. Each area could be dedicated to various cults and traditions with shopping centers, water parks, concessions and of course, animal sacrifices, chicken swinging and snake handling and maybe a UFO ride or two for the Raelians.


stranger things have happened,

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feistydem Donating Member (994 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. stranger than that? wow, where do you live?
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feistydem Donating Member (994 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. They haven't been invited
which is one reason why the neighboring Arab nations want there to be a sovereign Palestine --because they don't want all of those poor people in their countries.
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tnliberaldemocrat Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. As opposed to...
all the poor people already in those countries?

Let the Saudis and other oil states fund their resettlement. They give enough money to the PLO anyway, they could do that instead and not fork out so much money in the long run.
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-04 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'm very active in the Palestine solidarity movement. Here's my take.
Edited on Sat Oct-30-04 12:09 AM by durutti
I feel that the ideal, just and moral solution is one secular, democratic state where Jews, Arabs and others can live in peace and security, with equal rights, and granting the right of return and compensation to Palestinian refugees.

However, in the real world we often have to settle for solutions that are somewhat less than ideal. So I would settle for a demilitarized state in all of the Gaza Strip and West Bank, with Jerusalem internationalized, and granting only a limited right of return, along with a formal apology and compensation for all refugees. These are pretty much the views of the Israeli peace camp: Gush Shalom, the Meretz party, and so on.

The latter, however, is becoming increasingly unfeasible. Israel has never offered the Palestinians a viable, sovereign state. It has refused to even entertain the Right of Return in any way, shape or form. It is making a two-state solution impossible. (And for those inclined to bring up Barak's ultimatum at Camp David: http://fair.org/extra/0207/generous.html).

Americans must necessarily play a role in bringing about a just peace. Our dollars are used to oppress the Palestinians. Unlike pro-occupation forces in this country, we will never be able to buy elected officials. Instead, we need to build a grassroots movement and utilize educational outreach and nonviolent direct action. We need to build links with the Israeli peace movement and Palestinian civil society. We also need to reach out to our churches, mosques, synagogues, unions, and schools.

In building such an alliance, we must necessarily emphasize pluralism. The spectrum of views encompasses both positions outlined above. We must provide a big tent. Though some of us (including myself) oppose Zionism, we must not be "anti-Zionist". If we are right and Zionism is intrinsically racist and imperialistic, then this will become apparent to others in the course of the struggle. Dialogue and debate and disagreement are good, but we must not allow it to divide us.

Instead, we should all join forces and focus on the immediate goal: ending the occupation and dismantling the settlements in the Occuped Territories. No one benefits from the occupation except the American establishment, sections of the Israeli business class and some fanatical, fascist colonists. It is bad for Israelis, Palestinians and Americans.

Ending the occupation must also necessarily include destroying the apartheid wall. No one objects to Israel taking necessary measures to protect its citizens, but there's no legitimate reason for this so-called "security barrier" to stretch well beyond the Green Line.

As far as Arafat goes: yes, he's a corrupt almost-dictator. But there are few national liberation movements in history that haven't been run by corrupt almost-dictators, and in many cases -- including the Palestinians' case -- it's almost impossible to run them in any other way. Furthermore, Israel was more than willing to look the other way when Arafat was stealing from the public treasury and torturing, imprisoning, and killing his opponents throughout the 1990s.

When people are oppressed by another nation, they're willing to throw support behind authoritarian figures. I support democracy in Palestine, but democracy simply can't develop under occupation. End the occupation and Arafat will have no justification for his practices. The Palestinian people will seize democracy themselves. For now, though, Arafat and the PLO deserve (very) critical support.
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