Should Osama bin Laden be brought to trial, or just killed outright?

[Zhade]

Personally, I believe in the rule of law, even for those enemies who don't. I believe ObL should be brought to trial, not summarily executed, regardless of which president has the chance to capture him. It would help get to the bottom of 9/11, and would answer any nagging questions many of us have. And it'd be the just thing to do.

But that's me. What does DU think? Fair trial, or just whack the guy?

[WI_DEM]

1. Whatever is necessary at the time

If we can take him alive great, if he puts up a fight--kill the bastard.

[parkening]

12. I agree

if he dies in a firefight -- oh well. But if we capture him, we can't just plug him. Same as we did with Saddam, I guess.

[genius]

36. I want him to testify at Bush's trial. Definitely keep him alive

[laruemtt]

2. on trial so all the dirt

about bushco's connections to the saud's can come out.

[JSJ]

3. he must be tortured and debased first!

[Davion]

Although I voted for killing the bastard

It sure would be fun watching him shuffle around in shackles and an orange jumpsuit with USA in giant letters on his back.

[burythehatchet]

4. It doesn't matter to me

but before we do either one of those things we should make BushCo fire him.

[Zhade]

5. HAHA! Nice answer. :-)

NT!

[Quetzal]

6. Whatever is necessary at the time

But I prefer to put him on trial.

[One_Life_To_Give]

7. Use Dr. Dirts suggestion

Give him a healthy dose of Rectal Anthrax

[amazona]

8. a trial is the way to go if it can be done

If "he" or someone who just looks like him is killed, I don't think it will answer the questions that family members and the public in general have about the planning of 9-11 and other attacks. We deserve a full account that allows investigations to follow the links and round up everyone involved.

Including Mullah Omar who harbored him for several years.

A prolonged trial would make it much harder to fob a ringer off on the public, this is for certain.

[m berst]

9. Should Osama bin Laden be brought to trial, or just killed outright?

No, we should try to fill the entire first two pages of GD with OBL threads. That will push all of the Eminem threads into the archives.

[Zhade]

10. I'm not sure I understand your post.

I'm asking about a basic question of justice, and I think this can co-exist alongside threads on Eminem.

[m berst]

18. sorry

Hi Zhade sorry for the obscure post. There are dozens of OBL threads suddenly, most of them pretty useless, and I was commenting on that. Similarly Eminem threads took over recently, so that is the connection between the two subjects.

Didn't mean to criticize your thread. Since yours was the more worthwhile ones I kicked yours rather than one of the inane OBL threads.

[Zhade]

21. Ahhhh. Gotcha. No worries!

Thanks for the kick! :)

[wordout]

11. osama is a virtual creation

you cant kill something thats undead. and some reaction here is another example why i oppose the death penalty: too many executioners and not enough jurors.

[EV1Ltimm]

13. It's horribly un-liberal of me to say so, but killed on site.

I feel that as long as he's held in some cell somewhere in an undisclosed location, there's going to be fundamentalists trying to barter his release with a bus full of people.

Just my 2 cents.

[KoKo]

55. Did you forget that America was built on a system of laws...based on

the British system And that millions have died through centuries fighting for the right to a "fair" trial. Only the Bushes and their type of Imperial Rulers, felt that kill first and ask questions later was the way humans should act towards their fellow man.

And, as a Christian it's against my beliefs. But, just because the Bushes ignore laws and never seem to be brought to justice, doesn't mean we should abandon the judicial principles our nation was founded on, imho.

[realFedUp]

14. Since bin Laden would call this administration to the stand....

I'm sure the Bushies would rather he
be buried under a rock pile somewhere.

bin Laden may be evil, but he was our
evil in CIA support of the muhajadeen
against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

[ulysses]

15. trial.

No death penalty, either.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

16. I realize that this may be a novelty in Post-911 America...

...but let's find out if he actually did it before we convict him.

[amerintel]

17. He admitted he did it.

Did you not just watch the tape?

[Zhade]

19. Ah, but who did the translation? That's the question.

If anyone in the Traitor-in-Chief's administration did it, sorry, not falling for it. They've lied about too many things (WMD, Iraq's ties to al Qaeda, the list goes on and on).

[President Kerry]

47. nah.. Somebody speaking Arabic probably watched the

damn tape on Al Jazeera---they'd know if the translation is BS

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. The tape with the false Osama...is that the tape you're discussing??....

Give me a break...

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=943511#943823>

[KoKo]

56. Post Bush America.....He's the one who has used 9/11 to get rid of all

laws, but then his "installation" was by those who didn't even uphold the laws they swore to when they were "sworn in" to the Supreme Court.

[Pastiche423]

65. Yeah, I believe that would be the right thing to do

It's un-fucking-believable the number of people on this thread that believe the fucking unbelivable "original story", told to the world by whistle ass et al!

What was become of these people? Their bloodthirst scares the crap out of me and makes my heart physically hurt.

Yeah! To hell w/finding out who actually committed the 9/11 atrocity! We want blood!

And while we're at it, let's wipe every Iraqi off of the face of the earth! After all, we've got an election to win!

Fucking disgusting!

[drdtroit]

20. Trial

I'm sure we'd all be interested in what he had to say.

[Dangerman]

22. Fair trail.

I need to know the unanswered questions on 9/11. We can't just blow his brains out, I want answers!

[Bake]

23. Give him a fair trial and THEN kill him.

That wasn't one of the options.

Bake

[Dangerman]

24. That's not good enough.

Like I said, we need answers.

[Zhade]

25. That's because a fair trial entails the possibility of innocence.

Not that I'm saying he IS innocent, but then none of us have all the facts on 9/11.

[Bake]

66. If you believe that's him on the tape, he claims responsibility

Assuming the translation is correct, of course. So that's it for him. Yeah, I'd like to have some answers -- like who ELSE knew about it and was in on it (a la MIHOP/LIHOP). But as for OBL himself, that's ONE time I'll accept the death penalty. Reasonable people may differ.

Bake

[Darranar]

40. Why?

Once imprisoned, why kill him?

[TaxDayCSC]

49. Duh

because we don't wantr Al-Quaeda to use hostages against us, that would invovle more civilian deaths, and I think that it would be much better for the American people as individuals to see him filled full of lead and/or holes(or have a grenade thrown at him!Yay!) He has always been a militant fundamentalist, he just was on the same side as us and also supported the Mujjaheddin(probably spelled that wrong), but he is still a mass-murdering f@ckhead, and should be shot many many times.

[Dees]

26. Kill the bastard on sight.

Murdering filth.

[K-W]

27. Yah, this whole ordeal will only get better

if the US violates human rights in a response to OBL violating human rights. That will just stop the cycle of violence I am certain.

[Cyrix]

28. Unfortunately

too many americans are willing to kill. And many actually enjoy it and make a game/entertainment about it. That's why the media goes on about death penalty trials for months. Only a truly sick society makes a death penalty trial in to entertainment for the masses. If the Nazis had communications like we do now I'm certain they would have made death penalty trials entertainment as well.

The proposed EU charter that came out today bans the death penalty. (not really needed as it's already done, but anyway) We could learn something from them.

[Dees]

45. What crap.

John Kerry said capture or kill him. OK capture him, then kill him. When bin Laden, the mass murderer, laughs about the tragedy on tape I'm really concerned about his human rights. Let's get a bunch of international attorneys involved and get him behind bars....most certainly an improvement over his current circumstances. Liberal does not mean foolish. I'll speak for the 3,000 innocent who died.
Killing 3,000 innocents has nothing to do with violating human rights.

[Zhade]

54. Maybe the 3,000 who died believed in justice. Ever think of that?

It's repellent that you think you can speak for those dead. You can't. None of us can.

But to honor their memories, justice should be done - and I submit that merely killing ObL without getting the full truth about 9/11 first would be an injustice. Possibly one large enough to defile their memory.

If we are to expect justice for ourselves, we must believe in justice for ALL. Even those enemies who want to kill us. Found guilty, it is right to execute him. Were he to be exonerated, killing him for 9/11 would be wrong.

[Dees]

60. How insulting

"Maybe the 3,000 who died believed in justice" Does that not mean retribution? Given the severity of the fiery death of those that fell it's incredulous you would think Justice for such a heinous crime would exacted by asking a butcher to divulge his secrets. One clear and indisputable fact remains. OBL has never by any means of transmission denied, for whatever reasons, he orchestrated the events of 911. And, I will speak (in memory of) the loss of 3,000 souls and the pain felt by their families regardless of how "repellent" it is to you.

[K-W]

58. You dont get to pick when human rights get to be applied.

Or are you from the John Ashcroft school of justice?

[Dees]

69. I'm from the President Clinton

school of justice to get you just a little caught up. When Bill Clinton fired missiles at bin Laden do you think he was consumed with guilt about violating human rights? Do you think President Clinton was choosing when human rights should be applied and from the John Ashcroft school of justice?

Michael Moore 10/29 "...bin Laden...the man responsible for 9/11"

[TahitiNut]

29. But where would we find a weaker enemy? Fascism needs an enemy ...

... the smaller and weaker the better. :eyes:

[charlie]

30. Step right up, Venezuela!

Your moment in the sun has arrived!

[Zhade]

33. But don't you know? There are idiots on DU who think Chavez is a "thug".

So you might be surprised to find a lot of support even here for that idea!

[leesa]

32. I despise Americans that advocate "kill first, ask questions later"

I would like to hear his story because I think he could tell us who in our government helped him...if he had anything to do with it at all. There is no way he did it without assistance from Cheney, et al.

[tjwash]

34. A trial, so all the details of the BFEE working with OBL...

...and AL-Queda for all those years will come to light. Of course, you all know that if that happened tomorrow, the freepers would STILL vote for the shrub.

[Zhade]

35. Yes, but Freepers are mentally ill.

NT!

[Zynx]

37. I don't want to listen to him ranting on us in a courtroom - Waste 'em

Piece of shit.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. Kill him!! Torture him!! Murder him!! Burn him alive!! We're civilized

We'll show them durn terrorists what Democracy really means!! Why stop at Osama? Let's kill all or them! We're liberals! We believe in justice!

So now we are to use the same methods as those we claim to abhor?

[Zhade]

41. While your point is right on...

...you might not have noticed you accidentally typed OBAMA instead of OSAMA.

:P

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. Thanks.

I really should learn to reread before I hit the post.

[Darranar]

39. Capturing him and bringing him to trial is far preferable to me. n/t

[Swamp Rat]

42. We need him on the witness stand to testify against GW.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

44. 1. Geneva Conventions 2. US Constitution 3. Death penalty s/b abolished

Murder is illegal and has judicial remedies which don't require the
UN-PATRIOT ACT or a lynch mob.

The due process of law which protects human rights is the most important value for Americans to embrace in the face of violence and terror from states or individuals.

[StupidFOX]

46. Killing him would make him a martyr

There's no centralized terrorist efforts anymore, it's much more dangerous, especially when they're energized by the death of a mascot. Bin Laden needs to be put on trial and humiliated, but not killed. Let him rot, as will the morale of his foolish cohorts.

[TaxDayCSC]

51. Hmm, interesting point

This might sound a little sick, but I say that to do that, I would help the "rot" part of "let 'im rot", I'd give him festers, sores, cuts, and not treat them and feed him only rice and water

[despairing optimist]

63. I had to scroll down this far to find some sense in this thread

Killing Osama would make him a martyr and destroy a valuable source of information. I'd want truly independent, qualified people to interview him and disclose the proceedings to the public without interference from interested parties. We can't rely on government or the corporate media gatekeepers to decide for us what is appropriate for us to hear or read. We need to use what Osama knows to reform our government and change its policies, as well as to bring those among us who collaborated with Osama to justice. Doing all this far outweighs burning his miserable hide. We'd burn our own in the process.

[TaxDayCSC]

48. Bin Laden Should be given a chance to surrender

I think that if Bin Laden surrenders in whatever complex he's in, be it in Iraq(ha!), Afghanistan, Pakistan or France(somehow I doubt this, but needed to work in French-bashing), he should have two choices put his hands in the air and surrenedr peacefully, or be filled full of lead. Personally, if I was the bounty hunter(not US troops, a bounty hunter), I would shoot him, as I wouldn't want to have to deal with his trying to escape and transportation; its much easier to carry a dead man. If US forces find him, then he will be given an ultimatum, if there are shots fired by terrorists after this, then Bin Laden should be shot during the fight/firefight/battle

[politick]

50. He's Already

Dead

[durutti]

52. Trial -- absolutely.

First of all, I oppose the death penalty on principle -- even for those guilty of war crimes, crimes against humanity, or genocide. I think that states should not have the power to kill people, except in direct defense of their citizens. If terrorists can be prevented from killing people without kill them, then they should be.

If someone sneaks into your house and kills a member of your family, then sneaks away, do you then have a right to invade his house and kill him? Of course not. You go to the police and they arrest him. Then he's put on trial, and receives a punishment.

Bin Laden obviously is a criminal and should be brought to justice. If he's found, he should be taken into custody. If he resists violently, then potentially lethal violence -- as almost certainly he would -- can ethically and legally be used against him.

To declare arbitrarily that the law shouldn't apply is an emotional response -- an understandable one, but that doesn't make it right. And I'd venture to guess that there's a degree of racism involved. How many of you suggested that Timothy McVeigh be killed on sight?

More to the point, how many of you think that every President still living should be killed on sight? I certainly don't, nor can I imagine any sane person who does. But they are all war criminals, as are many current and former government officials. The unfortunate fact is that the U.S. has been responsible for many more deaths than has al Qaeda. And we'll never be truly safe -- we'll never defeat terror -- until that fact is more widely recognized.

[Zhade]

53. Excellent post.

NT!

[canuckforpeace]

59. I agree with everything you've said

but somehow I don't think OBL would ever surrender, even if he were given the chance (hard to prove, I admit). Also, I am "conflicted" about the prospect that terrorist acts, and hostage takings would be undertaken to secure his release. More innocent people killed.

edited for typo

[durutti]

62. Response to your concerns

1. If he doesn't surrender, then he should be taken by force. And if he fights back, then he should be killed.

2. There's certainly a prospect of terrorist attacks or hostage taking if he's allowed to languish in prison. However, the same applies to killing him -- we'd potentially see all kinds of retaliatory acts, just like Israel does.

[canuckforpeace]

64. Great. So we're fucked either way

Innocents killed/taken hostage whether he's taken dead or alive.

[durutti]

61. Mistake

In my original post, I wrote:

If he resists violently, then potentially lethal violence -- as almost certainly he would -- can ethically and legally be used against him.

It should read:

If he resists violently -- as almost certainly he would -- then potentially lethal violence can ethically and legally be used against him.

[Zero Gravitas]

57. Other

Capture if possible (a pitiful Osama in prison is less inspriational to potential terrorists than a dead one) but if the only way to get him is to kill, then we should kill him, preferably in a confirmable way.

[jdonaldball]

67. Kill him but make it look like suicide.

[Jack_DeLeon]

68. As long as the death penalty would be the punishment...

for a guilty verdict then a trial would be fine.

If on the other hand OBL's trial were to be in the Hague like Milosevich where the death penalty is not even going to be an option then I would prefer that whoever found him would kill him on sight.

[Q]

70. Interesting question....

...given that the US under Bush* has forsaken any pretense of due process or fairness. We have more citizens in prison/jail than any other country. The government can now detain anyone they wish without charges or access to a lawyer. They can search your home or bug your telephone/internet without your knowledge.

- If the US was really interested in stopping terrorism...they would strive to understand why it exists and how we could help to end it. But it seems the Bushies have too much to hide to allow bin Laden due process and a trial.

- Americans are encouraged to forget that the Bush Family has close ties to the Saudis and the bin Laden families...and that bin Laden himself used to be an American asset. No matter what WE believe...bin Laden (and Saddam) will never be allowed anywhere near a fair trial. The 'kill em all and let God sort em out' attitude prevails.

[Bridget Burke]

71. Put him on trial, of course.

After WWII, we put all the big-time Nazis who didn't escape (or suicide) on trial. We need to find out just what Osama knows.

For all the super-macho, bloodthirsty folks on this thread--please, join up. Help your president's search for Osama. What? You might be sent on some other errand? Don't worry. You'll probably get to kill somebody else with brown skin. Unless they kill you first.

[robbedvoter]

72. Justice process is absolutely necessary - for all the world

Romanians killing ceausescu wasted a great opportunity to provide a lesson/closure for a horrible period in history. Chaos ensued.
These matters are bigger than the moment. One needs to think at the repercussions for the future: make him a martir to his followers and deprive his many victims of a proper closure would be wrong on so many levels!