Bin Ladin: "If Bush says we hate freedom...why we didn't attack Sweden?"

[truthpusher]

Tell me how this can hurt Kerry?

The most interesting part of the Bin Ladin transcript:

"If Bush says we hate freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example. It is known that those who hate freedom do not have dignified souls, like those of the 19 blessed ones," he said, referring to the 19 hijackers.

other interesting comments:

"We decided to destroy towers in America," bin Laden said, referring to the World Trade Center.

"God knows that it had not occurred to our mind to attack the towers, but after our patience ran out and we saw the injustice and inflexibility of the American-Israeli alliance toward our people in Palestine and Lebanon, this came to my mind," he said.

"Your security is not in the hands of (Democratic candidate John) Kerry or Bush or al-Qaida. Your security is in your own hands," bin Laden said.

"To the U.S. people, my talk is to you about the best way to avoid another disaster," he said. "I tell you: security is an important element of human life and free people do not give up their security."

"If Bush says we hate freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example. It is known that those who hate freedom do not have dignified souls, like those of the 19 blessed ones," he said, referring to the 19 hijackers.

"We fought you because we are free .. and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security we undermine yours."

[Pig_Latin_Lover]

1. Definitely Bin Laden

"We fought you because we are free .. and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security we undermine yours."

Spoken like a true madman. This quote really sticks out.

I don't think that even the best fabricator could come up with a line like that.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

2. Meaning probably lost in translation n/t

[fob]

8. I was thinking it sounds...bushian*!! But maybe UBL's been speaking

into bush*s ears all these years afterall!!

[Pig_Latin_Lover]

12. Makes sense

Both are crazy on the same level of crazy, that being batshit crazy.

[K-W]

15. We need to stop dismissing him as a madman.

He has made it exactly clear why he is attacking the US, because the US has had its hands all over the middle east. The freedom of the people he believes he represents are indeed threatened by the US in the middle east. Saudi Arabia's regime is backed heavily by the US. Isreal is backed heavily by the US. Iraq was once backed heavily by the US.

The US in the process of attempting to protect it's percieved interests has never been a consistant good influence on the middle east. Osama's gripes are valid even if his response is not.

He believes the US is directly responsible for the death of people he believes he represents. He thinks this gives him every right in the world to cause the deaths of Americans.

This isn't a madman. How many americans wanted arab blood after 9/11 and werent particularly concerned with how it was gotten? There is nothing mad about terrorism. Unethical CERTAINLY, but not mad. The attack was a calculated maneuvre meant to scare the living shit out of America to give Al-Queda leverage to negotiate and influence the american willingness to continue our mideast policies.

[nodehopper]

17. well-said.

People who dismiss OBL as "crazy" are operating within US propaganda discourse that would like to gloss over the fact that the poverty and horror US empire creates abroad are plenty reasonable grounds for terrorism to sprout up. While killing civilians is unethical and evil unequivocally, it´s not like he is Son of Sam, and the dog told him to do it.

[K-W]

22. Yep, because calling them crazy means people never ask questions

about why they did what they did. This phenomena is a major part of Crime propaganda as well. People committ crimes because they are criminals, and if you try to find the reasons why people committ crimes you are just making excuses. It's a good way to get elected, but a horrible way to solve the problem of crime.

As long as Saddam is crazy, we never ask the question of why would he want to attack us. A question that is extremely difficult to answer and absolutely destroys the rationale for war. Saddam has never done anything that would suggest he had any interest in attacking the United States.

And as long as the Islamic militants are crazy nuts driven mad by thier satanic religion, we hate america if we dare ask the question of why exactly so many people in the Islamic world hate our guts that Osama was able to build up a non governmental organization with the capability of launching terror attacks anywhere on the globe.

[nodehopper]

24. exactly

"about why they did what they did. This phenomena is a major part of Crime propaganda as well. People committ crimes because they are criminals, and if you try to find the reasons why people committ crimes you are just making excuses. It's a good way to get elected, but a horrible way to solve the problem of crime."

That tautology characterizes the American public that is trained by the media to focus on the symptoms which always become false synecdoches for the larger picture.

And good point about Saddam, "crazy" prevents questions. Questions like "what is the connection between Saddam and OBL" and "why DO they hate us"?

Anyway, I am glad you wrote what you did. While I enjoy this board too often people here are well-meaning, and even progressive to a certain point, but are not deconstructing the narrative of the American Empire or owning up to the fact that there wasn't this huge rupture between the Clinton Regime and the Bush Regime (at least not abroad, domestically there was). Clinton was a Saint, Bush is the Devil, Osama is Crazy...everything is a little more complicated than that.

anyway, if you ever wanna come visit my "blog" it's at www.livejournal.com/users/anthrochica
there are some fun political discussions there sometimes.

[Zhade]

20. "Osama's gripes are valid even if his response is not." Oh, wow.

The Likudnik apologists here are propably weighing if they should rip you a new one (even though you are exactly right on this).

[truthpusher]

27. not a whole lotta people got the balls to say Osama is not a madman!

I think it helps Americans to deal with a threat by thinking of our enemies as babbling madmen getting their instructions from aliens.
I would say Osama is more of a mastermind of fear. Americans are more responsive to fear than anything else. Coincidently there is another mastermind of fear active on the world stage today.

[amerintel]

28. K-W

"He has made it exactly clear why he is attacking the US, because the US has had its hands all over the middle east. The freedom of the people he believes he represents are indeed threatened by the US in the middle east. Saudi Arabia's regime is backed heavily by the US."

Sounds like he made a believer out of you! That's exactly what he was hoping to do.

[K-W]

32. Stop the spin for goodness sake.

I agree with Osama Bin Laden that the United States has been a party to human rights abuses in the middle east. It is a matter of fact. that is just about the extent of any agreement I may have with him. It doesnt mean I think anything else he believes has any merit at all.

But the fact of the matter is that he uses the facts about the US involvement in the M.E. to recruit people thus giving him far more power to harm us. Everytime we try to harm him by striking at the Middle East it just feuls him.

I didnt come here to play rhetorical games with you where you try and twist and generalize my words.

[truthpusher]

35. I can see now how the Bushies can use this Osama thing against us...

...You know how Guiliani just accused the troops of loosing the explosives (very bad, very bad for Bush). This topic can very easily get some of Kerry's people to say that they agree with Osama. We all need to be careful on this one.

I like how Kerry came out immediately and said (paraphrased):'Whatever Man, all I want to do is kill the Mother-Fucker' very good John, very good.

[K-W]

37. Kerry's people would never slip up that big.

But that wont stop Bush from pretending they did.

[JohnLocke]

42. Un-fucking-believable.

:eyes:

[Proud liberal Kat]

43. I disagree

I think Bush is a madman and I definitely think that Osama is!

When I dismiss him as a madman I do not dismiss everyone with the same beef as him as madmen. I do think we need to look more seriously at our policies in the Middle East and have thought so for a long time.

I don't think Bin Laden is stupid and I can see the reasoning of his madness. I can understand the reasons that reasonable people oppressed in the Middle East are turning more radical and I believe our own madman in the oval office has pushed them closer to the radical philosophy.

But I will not give credence to Bin Laden, he is not only unethical he is a madman.
Kathy

[SeveneightyWhoa]

3. Because Sweden is socialist, duh!!!

Sweden = Socialist.
Terrorists = Socialist.
America = Freedom!

That's all there is to it!

:)

[Zen Democrat]

5. Oh? Who is the dictator of Sweden????

[SeveneightyWhoa]

6. I don't know.

But I'm guessing that he's blonde and blue-eyed.

[Zhade]

21. I'm pretty sure this was sarcasm. Emulating b*sh-thinking, ya know?

NT!

[mike_c]

13. clue-o-gram...

Sweden's long-successful economic formula of a capitalist system interlarded with substantial welfare elements...

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sw.html

...or did I miss the intended sarcasm in your post?

on edit: only a CIA document would use the word "interlarded" with a straight face....

[SeveneightyWhoa]

16. How could you "miss the intended sarcasm"?

Did the smiley-face STILL not make it obvious enough that I was joking? Sorry, next time I'll be sure to write "I AM BEING SARCASTIC" after any such post.

(not: this post is SERIOUS, not sarcastic)

[mike_c]

19. my penance will be to use the word "interlarded..."

...in casual conversation with the kid at the convenience store counter on the way home. Mea culpa. There have been a LOT of trolls around lately.

[truthpusher]

30. don't be mean - sarcasm kills

[One_Life_To_Give]

4. It looks close to an endorsement of

a Kerry foreign policy (as opposed to a * unilateral war).
Which makes me very uncomfortable as to what is their "intended effect" of this tape and my natural inclination to do the opposite.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

7. How the fuck so?

An endorsement of Kerry's foreign policy?

I'd love you to show me just WHERE Osama endorses Kerry's policy of "killing terrorists".

[One_Life_To_Give]

11. Undermining security

He is talking about their security. And our undermining their security. Along with support of Isreal, our troops in Islamic states etc. * ain't talking about pulling our troops out and heading home.

And also what is not said. If Osama wanted shrub elected, why doesn't he say "We are going to kill all of you evil americans. No one can protect you from our ..."

I hope I am wrong. And that Osama really wants to see * in office. So please show me. It's clear he intends to influence the election. The question is in which way?

[Zhade]

23. Wow, you sure missed the point.

It's pretty clear ObL does not think EITHER candidate will change America's foreign policy in the Middle East.

And that's mostly true, as much as I hate to say it. ObL, for all his evil actions and intents, DOES have a valid point about America's foreign policy.

Do you know how much it angers me to AGREE with someone like ObL about anything? More than I can say!

[K-W]

26. Except that you didnt read it right.

He was referring to the past, not the present. That the US's actions in undermining the security of the Muslim world in the past are the motivation for his undermining our security now.

Osama's propaganda is NOT designed to influence our election. He doesnt really care who is president of the US. He doesnt live here, he doesnt watch our TV. His message is that the US can elect a reincarnated FDR president for all he cares, he can still get to us. His message is VERY VERY clear if you get the spin out of your head long enough to listen to him.

Until the US changes how it involves itslef in arab affairs, it is constantly at risk of being attacked by Bin Laden, his propaganda is designed to spread that message and that message alone. He wants the american people to be convinced that the only possible way they can avoid terrorist attacks is to force our government to change its mid east policy drastically.

Stop reading OBL's words like he is a pundit on CNN.

[truthpusher]

31. from what I understand Crossfire had him pictured as though he was part

of the round table - another thread

[One_Life_To_Give]

39. Read him like a terrorist

Osama's propaganda is NOT designed to influence our election. He doesnt really care who is president of the US. <snip> He wants the american people to be convinced that the only possible way they can avoid terrorist attacks is to force our government to change its mid east policy drastically.

But our policies toward the middle east are up in this election. I don't think either Kerry of * will abandon Iraq. But * would likely maintain a more agressive military posture in the Mid East.

The other question is why did OBL take the risk to send out a tape at this time. What does he hope to accomplish?

Change US foreign policy? Yes
Change the election? maybe, probably
Signal an attack? it's possible

He leads a organization that plans it's actions very carefully. They pay attention to details and are very patient. I suspect that the message has been put together to give a very precise effect.

[K-W]

40. Osama is not a supervillian from a comic book

Our policies in the middle east are not up to this election. Both presidents plan to stay in Iraq until it can be handed over to an Iraqi security forces. The US would more than likely retain some prescence after that with either president, less so with Kerry and Kerry would probably get it done faster, but Osama Bin Laden is not in business to get things a bit sped up. Bin Laden wants the US to pull its troops out right now.

Yes he timed this with the election (this is all presupposing it is actually him by the way), but not to try and influence the election, I am certain that from where OBL is sitting they dont look like terribly different people. He just knows this is a good time to get that message out and to screw with the US.

He wants an immediate total withdrawl from the middle east, neither Kerry nor Bush will EVER do that. OBL doesnt care who is president, his goal is to get so much leverage with terror over the American people that our fear forces the president, whoever he is, to pull out or face revolt.

[nonconformist]

10. oh give me a fucking break

what you should be UNCOMFORTABLE about is that that sorry bastard is even alive and well enough to make tapes and threaten us.

[d_b]

9. Bin Laden has been consistently

saying these things (declassified CIA documents) for years now. Yes, he IS a religious nutcase but the crux of his message(s) has always been consistent: "fuck with us, we'll come for you". And of course that's completely unacceptable so it has to be spinned that it's "the freedom stupid!", or other falsifications.

I don't think this can hurt either candidate by what the tape states. And because of what was stated...I feel that neither campaign will use it to attack the other.

[htuttle]

14. He says he decided to attack us in 1982

From the bbc website translation:

Bin Laden added that the idea of striking the towers in New York occurred to him when "we saw the injustice of the US-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon", when, in 1982 "the United States gave permission to the Israelis to invade Lebanon" with, he alleged, the help of the US Sixth Fleet.

He said that these events had generated a "strong determination to punish the unjust ones".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3966817.stm

Do you realize he was on our payroll at the time? We were sending him money to distribute to the mujahideen in Afghanistan in 1982.

It's all Reagan's fault!

[K-W]

18. Good catch.

I can't believe people dont understand what is going on here.

We created this mess. Bin Laden took advantage of the corruption of every single major player in the Middle East and especially the United States to build his power both by taking part in the corruption and pointing it out throughout the Islamic world to drum up hate for us.

[cheezus]

25. sweden aids the enemy

from now on, they're the FREEDOM bikini team!

[amerintel]

29. TruthPusher

Your post - without comment - seems to be a major statement in that you SUPPORT those words of Osama bin Laden.

Yes? or No?

[truthpusher]

33. You tell me how somebody can hate freedom...

...this absolutely hearkens back to the 'Communists hate the American Way' notion from the McCarthy era.

By making an uneducated statement like 'they hate us because we are free' is a way for the people who hate the American way of free thinking, to stop a progressive conversation. Statements like this degrade a conversation down to a volley of retarded rhetoric.

By saying I agree that Osama attacked the US for reasons other than hating freedom, would cause most Bushies to go ape-shit. I hate watching stupid people go ape-shit. So, to answer your question: my answer is: Yes, No.

[K-W]

34. If Osama stayed on a bridge, would you jump off it?

Yes or No

[wordout]

36. amerintel

why didn't you find wmd's in iraq?

[amerintel]

38. I don't know - why didn't you?

[wordout]

41. that's not my job

and you're a miserable failure. :)