Hold on to your hats. One thing we know for sure

[Solomon]

about this administration -- before one load of shit they start is finished, they start something else. They stay ahead of scutiny by doing one outrageous thing after another.

Now that Iraq is becoming the nightmare that we predicted it would be, look for the regime to cause something outrageous to happen to distract people.

[kentuck]

1. That has been their pattern...

Keep 'em confused. Baffle them with bullshit.

[radfringe]

2. it's also the kick-off for re-Selection

whistleass's numbers are dropping too and we haven't had a good-old-fashion terra-lert to scare the shit out of us in months...

now they are talking about sanctions against syria... (last story on page.. Dubya-Dubya-3 )

meanwhile North Korea has called off the talks

[Deja Q]

18. Good for N. Korea!

I can't believe I'm cheering them, but Bushbastard* has been a real ass toward them. Hell, we've seen it all - Bushbastard* has been an ass toward EVERYBODY which isn't a white heterosexual male CEO.

Bush* deserves every bad thing that happens under his watch. He's responsible for it all, directly or indirectly. And if that wakes the American sheeple up, so much the better. Especially if they vote Kucinich for REAL REFORMS!!!!!!!

[WilliamPitt]

3. Korea

[DoYouEverWonder]

5. All NK has to do

is launch a missle aimed at a US target, such as a ship in the area or AK or CA, to give W is excuse to launch his next massive attack. Heck, they don't even have to hit the target. They don't even have to really launch anything. We could probably fake something and who would know the difference, before it was too late to stop W's response?

Maybe, I just have an overactive imagination and too much tinfoil blocking my brainwaves, but I do believe a faked nuke attack against the US by NK, would sure be the distraction W needs right now.

[DerekG]

28. I smell a Gulf of Tonkin incident, coming...

If LBJ could bullshit the Congress and the American people, than don't believe for a second that Bush wouldn't do the same in a heartbeat.

[Solomon]

6. The crazy thing about North Korea is that

I don't see how the Bush administration can do anything about North Korea - we don't attack countries with nukes. But - I guess they can use North Korea to scare the shit out of Americans before the next election. Make things a National Security issue even though its not a damn thing they can do to put the genie back in the bottle in Korea. Fear, fear, fear is the name of the game. The truth is, Bush expects fear to jump start the economy.

[Pepperbelly]

4. Korea presents them with two challenges and two possible windfalls.

Problems: 1) it was fine until they fucked it up with their disengagement from the area for 2+ years; 2) they have our armed forces stretched so thin that there is no way we can do everything these assholes want us to do.

Possible windfall: maybe they can blame it on Clinton.

[DoYouEverWonder]

8. But we're not dealing with sane people here

A rational person would say war with any country, no less NK, should be avoided at all costs.

Unfortunately, this misadministration hasn't seen a war they didn't want to miss. They've had such big successes with the two we are in already.

[bpilgrim]

12. WINDFALL = ABM Shield - n/t

peace

[G_j]

7. yes, I think it may be wise

to prepare ourselves for 'something'.
Just how to do that I don't know.

This may perhaps be a good topic for discussion: What will we do if.....

[Mel]

9. I call it their MO

and they are going to roll it out after the holiday, I tend to agree with Pitt, Korea.

Something in the back of my mind says it's something else, I can't put my finger on it right now though. It might be a tilt on NK/terrorism?? something else though?

I don't like how Asscrap was going around yapping up the 'patriot act' I think part two is going to be put on us after they roll out their 'new product'

[bigtree]

10. can't go it alone

I don't know if Bush can start a new conflict without ending this one and the one in Afghanistan. He cannot maintain two major conflicts and begin another without some major international assistance. And, you know what? No one wants to bail this admin. out . Bush was too cocky about going it alone. Now its clear that alone is where we are in our military ambition. That may prove to be instructive to Bush as he contemplates any more expansionist military nonsense.

Then again, he's an idiot. So...

[Ivory_Tower]

11. But what's in it for them?

How would this administration profit from a North Korean conflict? What resources does NK have that Cheney et al would covet?

Someone must be doing a cost-benefit analysis on this -- in Iraq, the "costs" of soldiers lives and American credibility was probably considered to be less than the "benefits" of the oil gained, the military contracts to cronies gained, and the geopolitical instability "gained" in the Middle East (a goal mentioned in of one of those position papers -- they felt an unstable ME allows the US more opportunity to influence events there or something).

So, in NK, the costs of a conflict would be: Additional loss of American credibility; loss of soldiers' lives (this administration has already stretched the military thin); possible loss of civilian lives of allies (South Korea, Japan -- which I think would be unacceptable to them); possible loss of American civilian lives.

There would have to be a HUGE benefit to offset those costs.

Could it be that there will just be a manufactured crisis to raise the fear level again, but with no actual conflict? If they can set it up so that there is a crisis that is ultimately resolved diplomatically, then Shrub can portrayed this season as the "Diplomatic Genius" and "Man of Peace", to go along with last season's "Warrior King" and "Conquering Hero". (Of course, a Diplomat action figure probably won't sell very well.)

That's a small benefit in that there isn't a short-term dollar gain (although it helps his chances in next year's election), but the cost is not too high, either.

But this assumes that they're powerful enough to control events once they've set said events into motion. That's a big assumption. Manufacturing a crisis that can be kept under control is a huge undertaking.

What about Iran? We're already at their doorstep (on two sides), plus they have oil.

(/speculation)

[Gin]

13. This morning on CSPAN a man w/the American Enterprise Institute said...

he sees a war with Iran. So...maybe that will be the next distraction.

[Ivory_Tower]

16. Hmmm, as long as I'm speculating...

An attack on an American installation in Iraq, that the administration can claim was sponsored by the Iranian government, might be enough for a "response". We've already seen from our experience leading up to the Iraq invasion that the evidence doesn't have to be very strong.

But I haven't seen much of anything talked up recently, like they were doing with Iraq.

Maybe it will be another horror on American soil, but that seems unlikely (also from a cost/benefit standpoint).

Or, maybe I'm completely wrong. When Bush I was president, I was convinced that he was going to invade Cuba, since he was on a "war-a-year" roll (Panama, then Iraq). But he backed off, tried to pretend he was a domestic president, and blew the election. Maybe Shrub will follow Daddy's footsteps and try to be a domestic president after two wars.

[bigtree]

14. this administration has already stretched the military thin

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030901-477891,00.html?cnn=yes

[Dogmeat]

25. Right 14, and a draft will be the political earthquake we need

The military is spread way to thin. I know that the services met their enlistment quota for this year, but don't you agree that it's inevitable that they'll be WAY under-quota in just a few years. Can you imagine the reaction of voters when these dip-shit, draft-dodging panty-waistes try to call draft? Country Joe and Fish are tuning up as we write.

[bigtree]

29. meeting the quota

For the first time since the all-volunteer Army began in 1973, significant numbers of U.S. combat soldiers may have to start serving back-to-back overseas tours of up to a year each in places such as Iraq, Afghanistan and South Korea.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-08-24-army-tours_x.htm

Many soldiers are not going to reenlist when their time is up after this mess.

But here's their own assessment of their recruitment prospects through their scope on our children: (This Pentagon study goes back to 1977)

Defense Dept. Youth Attitude Tracking Survey finds that:
http://www.dmdc.osd.mil/yats/files2003/99Propensity.pdf

Gradual changes are occurring in the racial/ethnic composition of the population and the educational and career aspirations of youth.

Most youth indicate they hope to achieve at least a Bachelor’s degree.

The number of high school graduates and the number of youth completing some college is increasing steadily while the
number of college graduates is hardly increasing at all.

Employment trends for youth who have completed high school, but not completed college, have improved.

Propensity is related to several demographic characteristics:
· Is higher for men than women;
· Declines with age;
· Declines with educational attainment;
· Is higher for unemployed than employed youth;
· Is highest for Hispanic youth, followed by
Black youth, and lowest for White youth;
· Is higher for youth who are not married;
· Varies by region: higher in the South and
West and lowest in the North Central region.

The report concludes that: Services will have difficulty meeting recruiting goals. In particular, it will be increasingly difficult to meet enlistment goals without drawing either from the pool of non-high school graduates or the pool of those who have
completed some college.

The more we educate the kids the more they reject militarism as a career choice. They will have to re-evaluate their priorities because the country would not support a draft for this kind of mis-adventure.

[DoYouEverWonder]

15. Because it gives them an excuse

to go nuclear.


Globe and Mail - Aug. 7, 2003

Beijing — A senior Pentagon adviser has given details of a war strategy for invading North Korea and toppling its regime within 30 to 60 days, adding muscle to a lobbying campaign by U.S. hawks urging a pre-emptive military strike against Pyongyang's nuclear facilities.

more...


Besides I'm sure W and Rummie have been itching to use some of their nukes just to see how well they perform. And we know that a lot of W's born again fundie supporters want Armagedon to happen and are waiting for the rapture. Plus what is the only thing that could destract the public from all of W's wrongdoing that is coming to light? These are people who were willing to allow over 3000 American civilians to die for their cause on 9-11. Don't underestimate what lengths they are willing to go to stay in power and to implement their goals.

[Ivory_Tower]

19. The "religious" factor is a wildcard, indeed

Then it becomes a matter of whether these guys are more dedicated to the Rapture or to their bank accounts. I don't think Cheney and his cronies are part of the religious fanatic crowd, so there might be some tension between his crew and Ashcroft's crew. Shrub has a foot in each camp, of course, so there's no telling which way he'd go (although I'd put odds on the Almighty Dollar).

Never thought I'd find myself rooting for Cheney...

[DoYouEverWonder]

23. But the Cheney crowd

wants to control the world's resources and get rid of the rest of us useless eaters. That's why the neocons and the fundies get along so well. They both want the end of civilized society.

[Solomon]

17. I agree that it would be a crisis not involving soldiers, we are clearly

spread too thin. I don't see us taking on Korea militarily at all.
If Korea indeed has a nuclear weapon, then they are a part of the club. I tried to tell people that the reason NK's leader was barking like a dog so loudly, was that he was looking for the goodies that comes with obtaining nukes. These goodies include trade agreements, substantial loans (NK is broke is it not?), etc., not to mention the enormous issue of self-defense. All the so-called Bush doctrine has done, is make it CRYSTAL CLEAR, that weapons of mass destruction are necessary for self defense for every other nation on this planet. To avoid an american "boot up yer ass", you better have a nuke! Obtaining a weapon of mass destruction, has the be the number one priority for any nation that doesn't have one. No self-respecting leader of a nation with resources conveted by others is worth anything if he does not seek to protect his nation from rape and pillage.


But look at the gross hypocrisy of it all. The people who are waging this war on terrorism are the very same people who argue that its the right of people to bear arms in this country, is a deterent to crime.
Why don't they use that philosophy internationally? If everybody had nukes, there wouldn't be too much fightin over somebody else's shit.

[bigtree]

22. I'm not sold on a bush NK invasion

There are signs that the Bush administration is looking to use Japan as a military buffer against North Korea. We sold them a couple of large missles this year and, despite our former enemy's oil alliance with Iran, we are quietly encouraging them to re-militarize.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4421.htm

Spooky. Nuclear Japan.

Japan is reviewing it's pacifist constitution
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3181083.stm

Japan Defense Agency asks for budget for Ballistic Missile Defense
http://www.spacewar.com/2003/030829100718.14282yx9.html

Japanese is in China negotiating (on our behalf?) North Korea's nukes.
http://www.spacewar.com/2003/030825130403.xb820757.html

[Mel]

20. Iran

ding ding ding! good speculation there.
What about Israel if Iran starts up that Nuke plant are they going to bomb it like AS said he would?

NK conflict I tend to agree with the manufactured part would it bring Japan more into
their/US's corner is that their twisted thinking? I don't know.
I do know that these Neo Cons are whacked and I wouldn't put anything past them.
Rummy was on the ABB board that sold the nuclear plant to NK that's an angle to not forget about same as his dealing in Iraq. What we got to remember is that these people are not patriots they are I believe traitors. Yes, that's a strong charge but I believe their past actions prove the point. In a sane world they would be brought up on charges. With Dick and Bush* more bombs built is more money in their pockets.
When we stop looking at them as being Americans/patriots it really comes down to the point of them being fascists that are looking out for thierselves they have no loyalty to us/America. I think they've made that rather clear with their present and past dealings.

Election, I think they believed they had that wrapped up BBV. Course, I see some monkey wrenches thrown into their plans.
!! I think they are starting to sweat on that one and we need to keep the pressure on them at that point!!
I think this is the key right now for us to take back our country.

California also comes to mind would they fake terrorism there for the fear factor?
I'm thinking the ports of course that could back fire on them too.

I think AS is a angle they had in the works for a while but I think that plan is falling apart on them. They are still trying though.
Jeez, Senator Hatch is willing to change an amendment to the constitution of who can legally be president that was back in July he was yapping that up on the Senate floor.

A lot of speculation on my part I just know I don't trust this lot of 'International Gangsters' at this point nothing they do surprises me I managed to get over that part.
I just haven't gotten over the outrage and I don't know if I ever will.

[teryang]

27. They are trying to starve out N.Korea

It is the "noose" policy. Supposedly this will expedite regime change. Like our Iraq policy it has the capacity to destabilize the entirety of Asia. One could envision new developments driving the Americans out of the Korean peninsula permanently. In fact this is the current risk that the neocons can't deal with. Without the constantly provoked issue of N.Korea, peaceful unification of the peninsula was inevitable with Sunshine policies. In that event, the whole system of US alliances in Northeast Asia become defunct. In fact, the cozy little colony in S.Korea might be lost. This is why they are in such a hurry to build 7 billion in new military infrastructure in S. Korea. It will become an additional political obstacle to removal of US forces. This is also why the American junta has been so active in insinuating itself militarily into the Philippines again. The older honest broker policy of the nineteenth century really isn't possible in Korea anymore given the increasing power of the Chinese government.

A unified Korea presents a large economic threat to Japan and American corporations. They are an economic and marketing force to be reckoned with. Korean manufacturers expand market share at the expense of Japanese and American manufacturers. Once they obtain access to N. Korean resources they will ultimately further encroach on American and Japanese markets. The US policy against N.Korea is not based on non proliferation, it is based on precluding economic development and maintaining its manipulative "strategic toehold" in Northeast Asia.

By stalling and then renegging on N.Korean nuclear power and fuel oil commitments the junta put N.Korea back 20 years in economic development, it also hardened differences and distrust, causing a reversion to cold war rhetoric. The "I heard the N.Korean delegate say in the hallway routine" is really wearing thin. It is total misrepresentation of the reality behind the conflict. The Chinese are likely to benefit from peaceful unification due to strong S.Korean Chinese trade ties. This would be a significant prize. While the N.Korean side is desparately struggling to survive, the neocons jump about from one scheme to another to preserve a deteriorating position in East Asia which simply reflects a change in the balance of power against us. Which would be worse for the US, a complete collapse of N.Korean government or the continued stalemate in which huge S.Korean resources are wasted trying to offset the effects of vindicative American policies carried out in violation of the agreement it made with N. Korea in 1994?

[Solomon]

21. I don't like the Asscraft tour either.

What the hell does he think he's doing, running around talking about "more tools in our toolkit".!? Are we in a science fiction movie? Before they REALLY want to start some shit in some other nation, they have to make sure they can control the population at home. That means me and you, folks. Not "terra-ists". The fact that they are laying the ground work for expanding the "tools in their tool kit" is ominous for americans. They've already taken our right to counsel from us and even the right to be CHARGED! They want more than THAT!!!!? :wtf:

Come on, wake up. They already tried to fool the populace with bullshit, now that that isn't working anymore, they have to lock down our civil rights so that they can do want they want in the raw if they need to. This is what fear can do to a people.

[G_j]

24. I've had similar thoughts

about what is behind this tour.
Fortunately, I've been hearing the reception has been pretty cold.

[RainDog]

26. patriot act 2

The Center For Public Integrity, and an honestly patriotic person in the justice dept. who leaked the planned rollout seem to have kept BushCo from rolling out patriot act 2 at the time of the invasion of Iraq.

(check out Bill Moyers' NOW for a transcript of a MUST KNOW show from that guy, or google Center for Public Integrity.)

I think Ann Coulter's book, which attempted to redeem McCarthy (and which failed, according to what I can see) was a counterpart to that effort to further enslave the American people by the neo-con pigs. I say this because it is public knowledge that she was one of the "elves" who worked with Starr's law associates to push Paula Jones on the American public. In other words, she's not an independent voice...she's merely, like Bush, a front for the face of evil.

Ashcroft is trying to put lipstick on the pig, but it seems to me Americans are not buying their baby.

They were thwarted once. I believe they can be stopped again, but it takes an active an informed citizenry who will let their representatives know what they think and how much they oppose this act and these assholes.

Make sure you go to the public meetings for your reps while they are at home. This is important!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

30. BINGO!!!