Our Political leaders aren't planning to leave the U.S. Why should we?

[greblc]

Talk of leaving the country is cowardice. This is isn't the first time our country has been in trouble and will not be the last. Our countrys history is fraught with the very type of internal conflict we are living through right now.

It's tiresome reading the Doomsdaying Poly Anna Posts about leaving the U.S. for a "Better Place".

I think it's cowardice, ridiculous and shamefull.

Do everything with in your power and means to make this a "Better place".

Every effort big or small counts. Everyone has something to contribute.

[bluestateguy]

1. Most of them are just blowing smoke

Permanently leaving the country for another country takes a lot of work. I bet you more than 90% don't do it.

[greblc]

2. True.

[punpirate]

3. One can't discount previous experience....

Many people in Germany stayed put because they thought things had to get better.

The Bushies have managed to put a smiley face on their brand of fascism, and that's convinced some people that the threat they represent isn't real.

Living to fight another day isn't cowardice, nor is it ridiculous or shameful. Those who choose that might well be thinking along those lines.

After all, how much can you do locked up in a relocation camp? We're not there yet, but that has happened in the past in this country--that's a reality. In WWII, the perceived enemy was an ethnic group. What if that perceived enemy today is composed of those with a particular political bent?

It's not crazy, or cowardly, if one considers history, and especially if one has children who might be indirectly harmed by their parents' political activism in an out-of-control national security state.

This is not your parents' America.

Cheers.

[greblc]

4. My point is why hand the country to them?

If we roll over it will most certainly get worse.

Leaving is saying "You win, it's yours". If people are truely affraid they should
leave. The threat isn't going away with a Kerry win. It has taken the GOP 20+ years to get here, the fight will go on.

[punpirate]

5. Okay, point taken....

Now, how do you fight them when they've incarcerated you for charges under obscure sections of the Patriot Act, or follow-on legislation?

If it comes to martial law, are you willing to find and use illegal arms to kill national guard troops who may be your neighbors?

Are you able to keep up financially with bail and legal fees for repeated arrests?

How long can you continue to oppose this administration if you don't have a job?

Those are questions that those on the left have mixed feelings about.

Sometimes, the smarter course is standing aside while the insanity burns itself out. In Germany, that happened quickly because other countries entered it, determined to end that regime and to end the world war caused by that regime. What countries will now invade the US to put an end to the Bushies if they finally go completely out of control in a second term?

Everything I've described is now in place, either by law or executive order, and yet, the country's corporate wealth (which feeds the right in government) runs on people's brains. If the smart people don't continue to feed that particular beast, then the right's attempted subversion of the country fails.

Just grist for the mill. Hopefully, none of this will come to pass.

But, if it does, you may have to define the word "fight" in ways you're chary about doing now.

Cheers.

[greblc]

6. Your senario is a bit extreme.

I can't imagine sitting on my hands in such a situation and would hope others would feel the same.

[punpirate]

7. You don't answer the questions I asked...

... though. You assume that this is simply a political contest.

What if it's not? You are the person who slighted others for saying they might have to leave the country if Bush is installed again. You are the person who said they were cowards.

I simply want to know how far you will go to defend the country and its Constitution by staying.

Cheers.

[greblc]

14. I took an oath when I joined the Marine Corps

to do just that. Defend the Country and Constitution. So you tell me. What price have Marines paid ? There's your answer.

Who HAS to leave if Bush is installed again? Who isn't affraid? To run from ones fear is cowardice. I hardly think it's a slight.

[punpirate]

19. That, unfortunately...

... still does not answer the questions I asked. Are you willing to kill, for example, your fellow citizens if that becomes necessary? Saying "what price have Marines paid?" does not answer that question.

Some people, not acquainted with military tactics and/or believing in non-violence, might feel that protecting their families by moving to safer ground and waiting out the hostilities would be the best course of action for them.

As I've mentioned, some in Germany in 1936-38 did exactly that. We don't describe those people as cowards, even though they were fleeing a fascist government over which they had no control whatsoever.

You seemingly cannot admit that others fear the situation can deteriorate in ways they cannot change.

I know guns (I fired expert in the Army). I know tactics. Still, I won't kill my fellow citizens because they're stupid enough to follow Bush wherever he might go, or because they have been ordered to suppress dissent by Bush.

If Bush wins, life in this country may change drastically in ways most of us cannot predict.

Unless you're willing to kill your fellow citizens to defend that oath (the same one I took thirty-seven years ago), you don't have the right to excoriate those who will not kill their fellow citizens because of a temporary aberration in the power structure of the country and choose to follow their consciences, or decide to protect their families.

You won't answer that question, and I suspect it's because you can't conceive of having to do so. I've considered it, and choose not to do so. If I stay, I may have to kill my fellow citizens if civil war breaks out because of Bush's policies. I don't want to do that, especially for something temporary.

Call others cowards, if you must, but until you say, definitely, I will kill any and all supporters of Bush if they usurp my rights under the Constitution, you cannot blame others for refusing to do so.

In fact, the Bushies have already usurped some of your rights under the Constitution, and you've not started the revolution. You've done nothing, from what I can see, except complain about those who don't share your views.

[Nordic]

8. something tells me you don't have kids

If you had kids, you might find it to be something other than "cowardice".

I will forgive you your naivete if you don't have kids. It changes everything, and in ways you don't expect.

[greblc]

15. I have two boys.

Why would I choose another word. Please explain.

[Nordic]

16. I want what's best for my kids. If it ain't America, so be it

I wasn't born in this country, although my father was an Army officer in the US Army.

My perspective is different.

There are plenty of dead Jews, gypsies, and queers who thought they should stay and fight in Germany. In hindsight, they should have left.

I'm afraid that in hindsight we'll all wish we'd left.

[Fleshdancer]

9. Is it really up to any of us to judge?

So someone wants to leave the country. Why care? Why name call? That person can still vote in the elections, can still make phone calls and write letters to political leaders, read newspapers, be informed, type on DU, pay taxes, etc.

Leaving the country doesn't automatically take away one's citizenship so what's all the fuss?

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

10. Can you believe all of those cowards that immigrate here daily?

Why do they come here instead of try and change their country to make it a better place? Every single person here (except for the Native Americans) are cowards or descendants of cowards! Shame on US! </sarcasm>

Some people would prefer to live their lives in peace instead of spending it fighting. That's not cowardice and your are exhibiting intolerance.

[UdoKier]

11. Many of us have dual citizenship or bicultural families.

That is the case for me. I can just as easily live in Japan, which has a better standard of living and national health care, and I may do that if this crap continues.

I do my part, and thus far it's gotten me 24 years of this country sliding to the far right.

My wife would be happier there and my kids would get a better education. Your post, while expressing a noble emotion, is just that - based on pure emotion and nationalism.

Our obligation as parents to provide the best possible upbringing and future opportunities to our children is as important as working for our nation's betterment.


Why should I doom my kids to a life of lowered expectations or even poverty if there are greener pastures abroad?

By your logic, our forefathers would be "cowards" and "traitors" for abandoning England, Ireland, France, etc. in their respective times of need...

[DemBones DemBones]

12. Considering that this country has been populated by immigrants -- and,

yes, even the "Native Americans" didn't evolve here but migrated here -- it's silly to criticize people who are talking of moving on to greener pastures. Our ancestors were migratory, why shouldn't we be? It's perfectly natural for some of us to move to other countries and if some of us do it out of an instinct for self-preservation, that's natural, too. Some of us are not young enough or physically strong enough to willingly face adversity. Awareness of one's limitations is hardly the same as cowardice.

[depakid]

13. You're entitled to your opinion

However, if you do the long term thinking and analysis, you'll see that the US is trending toward a very harsh and unforgiving future- the result of a quarter of a century of ignorance and divestment in education and healthcare as well as deregulation and corporate cronyism. America has serious structural problems as a nation that aren't likely to be solved, and they present a nearly impervious barrier to honest reform and real progress, even if there's massive upheaval in society like we saw in the Great Depression.

I've made my plans to find a way out, by going back to grad school to get a degree that will be in demand abroad.

I don't do this so much for myself- although I've become deeply ashamed to be an American- it's as much that I'd like to have kids one day, and I don't want them growing up in the kind of country America's become and especially the kind of country it will be in 20 years. Personally, I think it would be cowardly and shameful for me to do that to them over some half assed romantic notion that I or we will be able to make America a "better place." The writing has long since been on the wall about that.

I'm just sorry I didn't do it sooner, back in '95, when I had the chance.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

17. Besides, the more Democrats leaving America..

..means less Democratic voters, or protestors, or activists, or pain-in-the-asses. You get the picture.

How is that a victory for democracy in America?

I'm sure Republicans would LOVE to see every last angry Democrat move to Canada. Nothing would perk their pecker more than that.

[m berst]

21. much more serious than that

Perking their pecker is not anything to care about. I think tyrants need victims and want people to stay so they can abuse and exploit them. If everybody left it would strengthen the people and weaken the rulers and their sycophants. We aren't talking about leaving the solar system, after all, and recent history is rife with examples of nations being reclaimed and redeemed by expatriots.

Think DeGaulle. He fled. Think Petain. He stayed. Which man's decision perked the Nazis pecker, and what difference does that make?

[sweetheart]

23. Are you a statist or an individualist?

I am an individualist. The state is an illusion, that has its own
karma, and i don't buy that being born in america is to automatically
accept the original sin of the war crimes as my own.

I disagree, totally, and rather than be sneered at by people who
have sold out their individuality for "we" "us" and the "state",
one can be an individual in canada, and alter the paradigm from
without.

Here is an example. Do you know william gibson? Maybe not, but
he wrote neuromancer, a book that coined the term cyberspace and
created a whole genre of inspiration regarding the internet and what
was possible. He lives in vancouver... he rocked the whole country.

It does not take many individuals to change the world, but statists
have to travel in massive packs to have any impact at all, and some
folks are simply too tiny a minority to every be effective in
such a setting.

It is just as easy to vote from canada, perhaps easier, as one might
even be able to sustain membership in www.democratsabroad.org with
a consistent address, whereas, in the new american poverty state,
working 2 jobs and shifting addresses to be nearest the latest
employer, is a good way to fall out of the voting ranks, as there
simply is not enough time to be aware of what is reallly going on
whilst working closing clean up shift at macdonalds.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

18. Whether people leave or stay, we should all work to keep

the neo-cons in check.

Could you imagine the global threat that a United States comprised solely of freepers would pose? YIKES! That's the main reason I'm staying here no matter what (well, also, I can't afford to leave anyway). But I think people can still work to keep them out of power even outside the country. It's harder, but not impossible.

[m berst]

20. understanding you better

I sincerely thank you for your dedication, honoring your oath to defend the US Constitution, your service to country, and your willingness to fight to protect our country from enemies foreign and domestic.

Right now the fight is with words and ideas, and as you said on another thread with votes and flyers - more words, really.

I am reading Last Train from Berlin by Howard K. Smith right now, and I highly recommened it. He was a journalist of course, assigned to Berlin in the late 30's, as were many writers from the US and Great Britain. Some left sooner, some left later, some never got out. But their pens, whichever side of a border they were on, were a deadly weapon without which we would have had a much more difficult time defeating the enemy. They were constantly thinking through staying or leaving, for the precise reasons that shOrtbus stated on another thread. Some, like Smith, started thinking and talking about this years before it actually came down, and he was met with cries of "coward" and the like. But having seen the dangers way before other people could, taken them seriously, and having thought it through, he was able to stay and observe and report from Nazi Germany until the last possible moment.

Many writers in Germany got their families out, based themselves out of country, and were then able to go into and out of Germany without as many distractions. Their observations and reports were invaluable intelligence for the British and US military, and they took great personal risk to get their reports out.

Keep in mind, too, that in times of true crisis and peril, many of us pointy headed soft-hearted slacker liberals will - and have - put on the uniform and defended freedom. I would argue that the "slacker" army of grousers and liberals in the 40's proved to be more than a match for Germany and Japan - entire nations of gung-ho disciplined types dedicated to militarism - when the true test came.

So we all serve in our own ways, and we all await the call.

Patience friend, and cut the slackers some slack. They will be there with you should the time come - trust me.

[sweetheart]

22. They took the cannabis smokers, and i said nothing....

Then they took the immigrants who overstayed their visas, and i said nothing.
Then they took muslim people from countries disliked, and i said nothing.
Then they took the gays who wanted equal rights, and i said nothing..
... sound familiar?

You forget that the war on dissent has already been waging, called
"the war on drugs" and seeks to imprison people who use cannabis
or people who grow it for MS sufferers, (medical marijuana), and
has imposed political sentences on them to prevent them from voting.

Some people think its honourable to rot in a prison for 10
years getting raped for being the first rank. Are you demonstrating
and standing up for up for medical marijuana smokers? Jose Padilla?
or immigrants who overstayed... probably not.

My immeditate reaction, is best related to the swift boat ads against
John Kerry. You saw the groundswell of support that these lies
brought up to defend our champion, yes? Sinclair is under a lotta
heat.

When NBC/CBS and others "swiftboated" my buddhist teacher from 86
to 96, nobody said nothing... we got fucked, economically, black
list wise, and whatnot. It was just as slanderous as the swiftboat
ads, but because we were a non-christian religious group, we did
not have the public support to not be persecuted that politicians
have. So whilst John kerry is rich and is not affected by such
slander, it devastated my religous group. It was fucking criminal,
and yet were we to wage a long war in the courtroom, there was a
strong case, just like the swiftboaters, that they would be able
to get away with it. American liabel law is crap. Unless you're
famous, they fuck you and all the people who talk like you don't
raise a finger, while millions of prime time sheeple are moved
to destroy by the legion media machine.

My teacher, who had spent a lifetime teaching meditation all over
the country, gave up teaching. I remember, on the phone with him,
round this time, he was deeply upset that his life's work, teaching
samadhi and enlightenment to women, was being systematically
undermined by a concerted evil "conspiracy" as the clintons were to
call it. He took his own life in 1998, in protest to the treatment
of buddhist enlightenment in america. The media slandered him,
even in death. And like once a disciple of christ, the question
for his devotees, is whether to deny him, or whether to hold him
sacred and all that he stood for. In that sense, in my own case,
it was best to leave so that i could speak freely AND be treated
as an equal by my religion.

So, rather than whine and bitch, i'm a writer, and i do my part,
while you do yours. You should realize that some people need to
get out in order to survive, and yes indeed, the prison is that bad,
for minorities, alternate religions, and people who include in the
word "liberty" the right to take what drugs they see fit.

The war on drugs has hundreds of thousands of nonviolent drugs
offenders in prison today, due to a similar "swiftboating" of what
those people are about, and a legislating of that. What do you
do for them? Nothing, so like i said in the beginning, when you
don't stand up, and the sheeple don't think their next, don't blame
the ones to seek to escape.

I think you are shameful to blame those persecuted, just because you
have not been. Gosh, keep up that karmic profile, and you'll be next,
as you're obviously asking for the experience. Your post could make
me really angry, and i'm not gonna rip you a new asshole here, but
i ask you to be a little wiser, more circumspect and humble in your
sweeping presumptions.