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wildeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:39 PM
Original message
Some people can't be helped.
I employ a lovely woman part-time who babysits my children while I work two days a week. She is middle-aged mother of four grown children and recently divorced, without a penny, I might add. She has a warm heart and decent intelligence. But she she is a Bush supporter.

Today she was lamenting that one of her daughter's sons broke his arm and, of course, her daughter had no health insurance. After paying part of the medical expenses, her daughter now has $4 in her checking account and no way to make it to the end of the month. So I ask, now you understand what Bush's health policy is versus Kerry's? And she does. So ignorance is not the problem. And she is liberal on most issues, except abortion. Although she has some odd ideas about the UN and how they relate to Iraq, too.

So she is talking about how hard her children are trying to get ahead, but every time they start to, something like this happens, yadda yadda yadda. And I am thinking, it is a system rigged against you and if you refuse to vote your own self-interest, I CANNOT HELP YOU!

I am willing to pay higher taxes to enable our country to provide health care to all its citizens, but the bozo you voted for won't let that happen. And I HAVE health insurance, already, so I really want to do it for people like your daughter, so she can raise her kids in good health and security. But I CANNOT HELP YOU if you won't help yourself.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's abortion.
Some people are truly single issue voters. They won't vote for anyone who supports abortion rights. No other argument even enters into the picture.

It's sad, really.
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Zing Zing Zingbah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. These people don't realize that the republicans just use
the abortion issue to get their votes. I think most of the republican politicians don't really care about abortion one way or the other, but they realize many people have strong opinions on it. They say they are pro-life to get pro-lifer votes, and then they just go ahead and do whatever they want once they get elected (taxes cuts for the rich and such). They could care less about most of the people that vote for them.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. It's an easy ace-in-the-hole for Repugs.
Just like union membership USED to be for Dems. A few appearances at some fundie church gathering and BAM, you've got your votes.
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TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yes, I know several like her (well, not as broker as her, but sort of like
her). They're generally not well informed on issues, don't watch the national news on a regular basis, and live in a fairly narrow world. They are impossible to reach, since what WE know (and we're right, right?) is knowledge gained over a period of time by watching and reading national news, watching political talk programs, watching C-Span, becoming aware of issues and how the candidates stand on the various issues.

The people I know that are like your friend would rather have bamboo shoots under their nails than watch C-Span or a political program.
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wildeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. That is true.
She was reading a 'news' magazine the other day. It was put out by some religious organization. It was the most biased piece of doo-doo I have ever read. But when I point out the bias she seemed kind of dumbfounded. If that is what makes up her perception of current events, no wonder she is making bad decisions.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. Tell her this
Edited on Thu Oct-21-04 05:46 PM by camero
Repugs have had the presidency for 20 out of the last 28 years and have had both Houses of Congress for the last 9 years. They haven't done anything about abortion, nor will they, since they have no interest in seeing more babies born to low income mothers.
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. hilarious
sig line. I love it!! :thumbsup:
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. This will sound terrible. GOP appeals to the rich and the stupid
I am a PHD reduced (hopefully temporally) to throwing vegetables onto a grocery disyplay. The people I work with are uneducated, and unsophisticated. And they support Bush.

I could wax long on this, but the short version is that my co-workers just don't have the capacity to understand how Bush has made their lives much much more difficult than they need to be.

I will not say these folks are dumb... but they really have no ability to assess factors imposing on their reality.


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wildeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Brainwashed is more like it.
She is not unintelligent, just unable to think for herself. It is so sad for me to watch her family struggle the way they do, and they are good, hard working people, but then vote for the party that put them there in the first place.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Nope, that sounds about right...
Anyone who isn't rich and selfish that supports bush is intentionally ignorant, stupid or self-destructive.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. "And she is liberal on most issues, except abortion"
Hmm, that's a tough one. If you believe that "life" begins at the moment of conception, you're sort of logically compelled to lean against abortion.

But that's a quite parochial definition of when "life" begins. And, of course, Mother Nature in her wisdom causes more than 50% of all conceptions to spontaneously abort\mis-carry (or so I've read somewhere).
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wildeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Plus abortion rates actually went down during Clinton's presidency.
I have talked with her about the necessity of providing social programs for poor mothers, how that in and of itself will decrease the abortion rate. Making the act of abortion illegal won't actually stop the procedure from happening, just push it underground. You really have to give women some hope if you want them to have these babies. And she got pregnant when she was 16 and unmarried, so she understands the temptations involved.
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Zing Zing Zingbah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. That's a very good argument.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. You remind me of a neonatologist I worked with
He was also the trauma/ICU chief. One afternoon, a three-year-old near-drowning came in. Grandparents were supposed to be watching the child while the child's parents took a belated honeymoon. During a big family gathering at Granny and Grandpa's, no one thought to keep an eye on the child. He stumbled into a neighbor's pool and was essentially "dead" when we got him.

Before the family would agree to let the Chief treat the boy, they took him aside and asked him about his religious beliefs. (He was Jewish).

The Grandmother said, "We can't let you work on him if you believe in abortion."

"Lady," he replied, "I SAVE abortions."

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billybob537 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. Ask her this
Why is George Bush for abortion when it's his girlfriend, and against it when it's a campaign issue? If he wanted to outlaw abortion he could do it now. The supreme court is stacked with conservatives, the house and senate are in Republican control. What is he waiting for? He knows outlawing abortion would put him out of this election.Neither he nor anyone else can outlaw abortion, it wont happen. So there is no need to vote for Bush* because of this issue.
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Uber Llama Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
11. There is no "I CANNOT HELP YOU" only "I WILL NOT HELP YOU"
I don't mean to criticize you, but these are the same kind of people in 1984, the Proles, who are hurting them selves but due to the Rovesque dirty tricks cannot see it. They desperately want to help themselves, but are being stopped. I don't know, maybe it is "I CANNOT HELP MYSELF" It's weird....
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wildeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. I don't understand your point.
I am trying to help her, I want her to succeed, I am willing to make sacrifices to see that happen. I feel frustrated because I am not succeeding in convincing her to vote in her own self interest. I don't understand how I 'will not help her'. I am just frustrated, I am not actually going to stop trying.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
12. Tell her ...
Any government that has the power to tell a woman when she CAN'T have an abortion is a government with the power to tell a woman when she MUST have an abortion!

Tell her that radical right-wing ideologies have subscribed to eugenics and limited reproductive rights for over a century ... and the Bush Regime is no different.
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jhain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
13. show her this
if you want to spend more energy on her- print this out:

Voting Our Conscience, Not Our Religion

October 11, 2004
By MARK W. ROCHE
New York Times
South Bend, Ind. - For more than a century, from the wave of immigrants in the 19th century to the election of the first Catholic president in 1960, American Catholics overwhelmingly identified with the Democratic Party. In the past few decades, however, that allegiance has largely faded. Now Catholics are prototypical "swing voters": in 2000, they split almost evenly between Al Gore and George W. Bush, and recent polls show Mr. Bush ahead of Senator John Kerry, himself a Catholic, among white Catholics.

There are compelling reasons - cultural, socioeconomic and political - for this shift. But if Catholic voters honestly examine the issues of consequence in this election, they may find themselves returning to their Democratic roots in 2004.

The parties appeal to Catholics in different ways. The Republican Party opposes abortion and the destruction of embryos for stem-cell research, both positions in accord with Catholic doctrine. Also, Republican support of various faith-based initiatives, including school vouchers, tends to resonate with Catholic voters.

Members of the Democratic Party, meanwhile, are more likely to criticize the handling of the war in Iraq, to oppose capital punishment and to support universal heath care, environmental stewardship, a just welfare state and more equitable taxes. These stances are also in harmony with Catholic teachings, even if they may be less popular among individual Catholics.

When values come into conflict, it is useful to develop principles that help place those values in a hierarchy. One reasonable principle is that issues of life and death are more important than other issues. This seems to be the strategy of some Catholic and church leaders, who directly or indirectly support the Republican Party because of its unambiguous critique of abortion. Indeed, many Catholics seem to think that if they are truly religious, they must cast their ballots for Republicans.

This position has two problems. First, abortion is not the only life-and-death issue in this election. While the Republicans line up with the Catholic stance on abortion and stem-cell research, the Democrats are closer to the Catholic position on the death penalty, universal health care and environmental protection.

More important, given the most distinctive issue of the current election, Catholics who support President Bush must reckon with the Catholic doctrine of "just war." This doctrine stipulates that a war is just only if all possible alternative strategies have been pursued to their ultimate conclusion; the war is conducted in accordance with moral principles (for example, the avoidance of unnecessary civilian casualties and the treatment of prisoners with dignity); and the war leads to a more moral state of affairs than existed before it began. While Mr. Kerry, like many other Democrats, voted for the war, he has since objected to the way it was planned and waged.

Second, politics is the art of the possible. During the eight years of the Reagan presidency, the number of legal abortions increased by more than 5 percent; during the eight years of the Clinton presidency, the number dropped by 36 percent. The overall abortion rate (calculated as the number of abortions per 1,000 women between the ages of 15 and 44) was more or less stable during the Reagan years, but during the Clinton presidency it dropped by 11 percent.

There are many reasons for this shift. Yet surely the traditional Democratic concern with the social safety net makes it easier for pregnant women to make responsible decisions and for young life to flourish; among the most economically disadvantaged, abortion rates have always been and remain the highest. The world's lowest abortion rates are in Belgium and the Netherlands, where abortion is legal but where the welfare state is strong. Latin America, where almost all abortions are illegal, has one of the highest rates in the world.

None of this is to argue that abortion should be acceptable. History will judge our society's support of abortion in much the same way we view earlier generations' support of torture and slavery - it will be universally condemned. The moral condemnation of abortion, however, need not lead to the conclusion that criminal prosecution is the best way to limit the number of abortions. Those who view abortion as the most significant issue in this campaign may well want to supplement their abstract desire for moral rectitude with a more realistic focus on how best to ensure that fewer abortions take place.

In many ways, Catholic voters' growing political independence has led to a profusion of moral dilemmas: they often feel they must abandon one good for the sake of another. But while they may be dismayed at John Kerry's position on abortion and stem-cell research, they should be no less troubled by George W. Bush's stance on the death penalty, health care, the environment and just war. Given the recent history of higher rates of abortion with Republicans in the White House, along with the tradition of Democratic support of equitable taxes and greater integration into the world community, more Catholics may want to reaffirm their tradition of allegiance to the Democratic Party in 2004.

Mark W. Roche is dean of the College of Arts and Letters at the University of Notre Dame.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/11/opinion/11roche.html?ex=1098486602&ei=1&en=ee82ecb14c656457
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wildeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. That is a great article.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. No politician is going to change her situation. What Bush offers is a more

universally accessible and apparent sense of "anti-otherness" that provides a psychological benefit.

A shoddy and ineffectual benefit, but a popular one, time-tested and true.

Less than a century and a half ago, it sent poor white men off to fight for the rights of rich white men to own black men.
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necso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. Some of these people,
Edited on Thu Oct-21-04 06:03 PM by necso
would have us all living in holes in the ground in the hope of making abortion illegal -- as though making abortion illegal would actually end abortions.

Idiocy.
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Fear Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
19. one word MEDIA
I know, it's impossible. One thing I found along the road though is that those that are so stuck with Bush have a few things in commom.

a) they do not have access to the internet or other media sources and are thus relying mainly on tv feeds.

b) they mostly have been voting republicans all their lives and why would it be any different this election then other elections?

c) they think Bush is more appealing to them, it's more of their guy?!?!?!?! (whatever that means)

d) thinking about all of these political issues that effects them is something they don't want, it just needs to go along fine again....so they tend to *vote* for the person they find most appealing to them from the feeds they receive.

Probably more....but oh well
--------------

- those that DO know what's happening and going on, well......I really don't know.
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-04 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
21. THIS is who WE are:
"I am willing to pay higher taxes to enable our country to provide health care to all its citizens,"
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