Agnostic/Atheist DUers: Is religion a joke?

[NightTrain]

[gmoney]

1. nothing funny about it

"I like your Christ; I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Mohandas Gandhi

[NightTrain]

2. Did I mention Christianity?

I said "religion." Christianity isn't the only religion practriced in this world, you know!

[freetobegay]

3. Only in the lounge.

[Philostopher]

4. Meh.

Whatever gets you through the night, as long as you don't kick down my door, climb in my bed with me, and insist it get me through the night, as well. I'd rather drink my wine, listen to my rock and roll, and think about something other than whether hell is hot, or full of people I can't stand that I'm going to have to stare at for an eternity after I discover my eyelids have been removed.

[MercutioATC]

9. Great way to express it.

I don't believe in a "higher power", but I don't have a problem with people who do. Belief is a personal issue. Just respect my disbelief as much as I respect your belief.

[Philostopher]

15. Amazing how most of us here at DU seem to feel that way.

I know some don't, but I think for the most part, the agnostics and atheists here figure spirituality is a personal thing. At DU, it's seldom a problem -- but in Real Life, people seem shocked to find out that I'm agnostic and I'm not a prostitute or a drug addict. As if the failure of my original belief in a well-defined higher power somehow rendered me not only apostate but also amoral and without a sense of ethics.

But as I say, mostly it's not a problem here on DU. At least, it's not a problem unless I post in a religious thread and talk about why I quit believing -- I catch flak for that, occasionally. My bad for posting as an agnostic in religious threads, I guess -- now, I just hide them when they start.

[MercutioATC]

18. I work with a few evangelical christians...whom I like as people.

We disagree on religious issues, but they've all been shocked to find out that I'm an agnostic with atheistic leanings (depends on your definitions). They respected my values before they knew and I respected their values even though I knew all along. The rest is just pageantry (at least as far as I'm concerned).

[Philostopher]

27. My mother can't stand the fact I no longer believe the stuff.

But she's as much as admitted her primary motivation for attending the (evangelical) church she still attends is the fact that most of her friends attend it.

I know it's difficult to walk away from a religion -- it was a ten-year walk, for me, before I felt fully at ease with calling myself agnostic. I wouldn't take what she believes away from her -- but it isn't really very close to what the church tells her she should, anymore. She's very intelligent, if uneducated, and grew up in a small town in the era when women were subservient and felt compelled to guide their families' spirituality (there's a verse buried somewhere in the bible that says a woman is responsible for the spiritual guidance of her family, and if any stray from 'the path' their fate gets chalked up to her -- I'm guessing it's New Testament, and probably written by Paul).

I don't know if I'm more of a theist agnostic or an atheist agnostic -- frankly, I just burned out on it all and realized I no longer believed in the concept of an eternal punishment for the vast majority of people who were ever born on earth. I guess I sort of realized that worshipping someOne who was as petty and vindictive as the God of the bible sounded wasn't in the cards for me, anymore. I feel less despairing and guilty about my 'immortal' soul now that I no longer believe many of the things I did, and have fewer bouts of anxiety over the way I live my life. There's great comfort, for me, in believing there is no 'great beyond' when I die; that there's just silence. The thought of ending isn't depressing without a promise of some kind of reward. I'm quite comfortable with the thought 'eternal rest' would mean literally that -- lights out, no more.

But I'd never trash what my mother belives, if it makes her happy. Most of my family still attend that church, or others like it, and good for them. For me, it just doesn't wash anymore.

[SidDithers]

54. Very well said...

couldn't agree with you more

:toast:

Sid

[The Straight Story]

5. Is being a democrat a joke?

It is a belief afterall. All philosophies, religions, political affilitations, and such are a 'religion' of sorts.

Might makes right. Bush can determine right in the world because he has the power to - since there is no higher power, who is tell him he is wrong? We can 'believe' he is wrong and evil, but the one who holds the power on this earth is always 'right' as there is no higher authority or power to say otherwise.

religion may be a joke, but then so too it appears no religion can be as well.....

[NightTrain]

23. It was in 2000.

[MattBaggins]

6. I wanted to vote for options 1 and 2

But I can only vote once

[The Doctor.]

7. Religion is the basis for a good psychological stronghold...

Unfortunately it is the truly weak minded who allow others to use religion to bend them to their will.

What religion really is is an iconic abstraction, or way of looking at the vast intricacies of a reality that we haven't the cognitive array to consciously comprehend as a whole.

Simply put - we know that things are REALLY complicated but have no way of grasping those 'things'.

Our day-to day lives are simplified by being handed a moral code to live by and help us avoid complexity.

I, for one love the complexities of Human Superconscious Mechanics.

Religion is a way of simplifying that superconscious dynamic.

[madmom]

8. there's nothing funny about it...

more lives have been lost in the name of religion than for any other reason.Some people are so insecure they need their crutch to me religion is merely that, no better than any other cult.

[The Doctor.]

12. It is the weak minded...

who allow others to use religion to bend them to their will.

I'm for making people less weak minded, not getting rid of religion.

Religion will fade as we evolve into our own divinity.

[kaitykaity]

10. I only have a problem when other people start preaching

at me and saying things like "If yew don't buhleev in
Jeezus, ur goin' tuh Heall."

I moved out of Oklahoma so I don't have to deal with
that anymore.

:eyes:

[timtom]

64. Well, that's mighty progessive of you.

But what about someone using abusive and mocking language to denote us christians? I mean, I'm okay with your beliefs. And at no time would I ever preach to you about anything (except intolerance or thinking Bush is more than a subhuman -- and I'm not doing that, by the way). However some are not okay with my beliefs.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2503085#2503131

I think this was an insensitive post and hit me quite emotionally. Does it seem sorta like the opposite side of the coin to you?

(BTW I don't have an issue with you. I just used your post as a springboard to bring up a recurring problem I've seen here at DU, and would ask that ALL would be respectful of others' feelings. We're united, of course, in the very grim fight against fascism and a truly dark evil that has surfaced in America in 2000.)

[stepnw1f]

11. Yeah... A Bad One

I made a funny though...

[ghostsofgiants]

13. People can believe what they want, i'm not going to judge the person

But fuck yes, religion itself, in my opinion, is a joke.

[IronLionZion]

14. isn't atheism/agnosticism a religion?

because belief in anything at all would be religion. including the belief that there may not be a higher power.

[NightTrain]

19. Uhh... No.

[IronLionZion]

21. wow, you sure told me!

[NightTrain]

22. I'm into minimalism.

:evilgrin:

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. Longer answer: no

here's a dictionary definition of religion:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=religion&x=12&y=15

Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

and 'religious':

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=religious

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French religieus, from Latin religiosus, from religio
1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <a religious person> <religious attitudes>
2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances
3 a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful b : FERVENT, ZEALOUS

So there is much more to it than just 'belief'.

[asthmaticeog]

34. That's incorrect

And it's also a rhetorical trick that theocrats have used to redefine "Secular Humanism" as a religion in order to keep evolution out of schools.

Break down the word "atheism." "A" is a suffix meaning "without" or "lacking." "Theism" means a belief in a supernatural god or gods. Lack of belief needn't be a positive assertion that there is no god. Every infant is an atheist - they haven't heard of god, no there's been no chance to internalize the concept, therefore, lack of belief.

As for myself, I'm wary of saying there is no god. My atheism is based on the lack of good evidence supporting supernatural divinity. That doesn't mean I'm asserting definitively that there's no such thing, I just don't see any reason to believe in it. That's not a belief that there is no god. It's the absence of a belief. I also lack a belief in the existence of elves. Is that a religion?

[immoderate]

42. Atheism is not a religion. (again)

Analogies:

Bald is not a hair color. Health is not a disease.

I heard a great take on this reasoning recently. Be aware of the difference between a mirror image and an opposite.

--IMM

[asthmaticeog]

50. "Bald is not a hair color"

That's EXCELLENT. I'll have to add that to my repertoire.

[DuaneBidoux]

63. I believe Atheism is a religion, agnosticism is not

Atheism says you know something about the universe for which (as far as I can gather) even scientists say there is no evidence either way. This means you are believing, on faith, that there is no God. Agnostics say "I don't know...I don't have a way to determine." No faith involved there, just a decision not to decide.

[immoderate]

66. Ah those words...

A person can be agnostic and atheist.

Agnostic means without knowledge, and atheist means without god.

You are talking about gnostic atheists which claim sure knowledge that there is no god. I know a lot of atheists, but none of the gnostic type you cite.

My take: I see no evidence for any supreme being that has so far been described to me, so I choose not to believe in one. It goes a bit farther: To accept the belief of any of these deities, I would have to abandon current beliefs that make sense to me.

--IMM

[Cobalt Violet]

16. Other

No,
It's too dangerous a mind set to be a joke,although it is laughable.

[Arkana]

17. No, people can believe what they want

However, I do believe that some branches of Christianity (like the Pentecostals) prey on the uninformed.

[NightTrain]

20. Perhaps I worded my question incorrectly.

Maybe I should have asked, "Do all religions suck?" :shrug:

[Bluebear]

24. Whatever gets you through the night.

[Raiden]

25. This sums it up nicely...

"Where knowledge ends, religion begins." - Benjamin Disraeli


IMHO, religion is just a tool to explain the unexplainable. I mean, c'mon, I was not made out of the fuckin' dirt, Noah didn't put two of every animal on earth on the ark, and virgin births are impossible. I hate the notion that faith in a higher power makes it real. All the children in the world can believe in Santa Claus, but that won't bring a jolly old man in a red suit down your chimney. Faith to me is nothing but a naive false hope. Any four year-old can have faith, but I prefer to think things out for myself and have things proven through science than to just assume that God causes all things good and Satan causes all things bad. The Bible is totally metaphorical, and yet all these fundie freeper dumbasses assume that its literal. I can't wait for the day when all religions are dead and Christianity is remembered as nothing more than a mythology. I feel as though religion only holds us back. It's a sad state of affairs when science is halted because Bible-thumpers don't want us "playing God."

[SammyWinstonJack]

52. What Raiden said!

[Cat Atomic]

26. The problem I have with religion is this:

It teaches people that believing a thing in the face of evidence to the contrary is virtuous. Faith, in other words.

I think our greatest gift is the capacity for critical thought, and too often, religion works to suppress that gift.

Still, I happen to really like Jesus' overall message.

[starroute]

28. If people would just accept that religion is a theory not a fact . . .

. . . we would get along a whole lot better.

I'm inclined to hold that making up stories is a good thing. It's when people start to believe in their own stories that we have problems.

There is a fundamental truth in all stories: The world is bigger than you are. If you can identify with the demands of that larger world, you will succeed. If you resist those demands in the name of pursuing your narrow self-interests, you will fail or even find yourself the villain of the piece.

If people could just accept that simple truth and not get hung up on the particular details that are used to concretize it in one story or another, we could make up all the religions we want and they wouldn't be any trouble to anybody.

[cmd]

41. I believe very much the same way

I treasure the stories of the Bible and the hymns of the church I attended as a child. I learned important values in Sunday School. However, I can't buy into the idea that I have to believe exactly what a church says I must believe. I'm not a God-fearing person, because my God is one of love and patience, one that will always be there for me no matter what I do like every loving parent should stand by his/her child.

[Shadowen]

29. Fuck yes.

Religion, dogma, and the like are all colossoal jokes on humanity by whatever deity/ies may or may not exist.

Spirituality, faith, and philosophy, however, are not.

[leftofthedial]

30. a very unfunny and sad one

and just when it's time for the punch line . . .

BAM! you're dead and you miss it!

[muriel_volestrangler]

32. It's three things

1): An attempt to explain phenomena that we don't understand. As science has advanced, our need for this has decreased.

2): A justification for sets of rules on how to be civilized. As human society grew, people said "why should I be fair to this person I've never met before ,and won't meet again? Why can't I just kill him, or steal all his goods?" And people decided the best way to persuade them to treat them like a friend (or at least an acquaintance whom the should try to get along with) was to say "we're all children in one big family anyway, and the parents in charge are going to be really pissed off at you if you start disobeying these rules".

Our need for this is decreasing too, thanks to things like democracy, and, to a lesser extent, the United Nations and such like. But religion has done a lot of good, historically, in helping the creation of civilizations. It can be abused too; but there's a general trend in religion away from violence.

3): Wishful thinking that we will go on existing forever. I think it will take many humans a long time to get over this.

[mmonk]

33. The view from this somewhat agnostic

but raised Catholic person, its not a joke but it is something if not measured, threatens development in science and mankind and endangers the world at times with war.

[toddaa]

35. Religion != Judaism/Christianity/Islam

Hard for some people to believe, but there are many religious traditions that have nothing to do with the people of Abraham. Doubt and belief are the two most powerful tools we have to find meaning in life. Calling someone's belief a "joke" is just as rude as ridiculing someone's doubt. You want to know why wars get started? It's not because of religion. It's because you don't like the OTHER GUY'S RELIGION.

[mmonk]

37. very true but

they don't have power.

[immoderate]

43. It's because you don't like the OTHER GUY'S RELIGION.

Tautology alert! That's a built in feature of religion.

--IMM

[Skittles]

36. yes, and a bad one

nt

[ulysses]

38. no. n/t

[kaishaku]

39. I'm inventing a new belief

it will be called "Apatheist."

[asthmaticeog]

40. NightTrain,

Could you clarify what you mean by "a joke?"

Historically and now, it's not even close to a joke. It's one of the most powerful social motivators of all time. Often, religions have held dictatorial power over the lives of a great many people. Hardly a joke.

If you mean to ask whether theistic belief itself is so irrational as to be laughable, that depends on the theist. Some of the messianic Black Israelite movements of the 20th century (e.g. Rastafrianism) and things like Christian Science, Latter Day Saints and Snake Handling are pretty loony-seeming (to varying degrees) when a rational filter is applied to the specific tenets of those faiths. OTOH, Deism, which holds to the belief in a supernatural creation, but a non-personal creator who doesn't interfere with or even care about Earthy events, is more defensible (on strictly rational grounds - I understand that faith, defined as using revealed rather than empirically-gathered information to gain knowledge, exists outside the sphere of reason qua reason) since it doesn't posit much of anything.

So anyway, I'd love to give an answer, but I need to understand the content of your question.

[immoderate]

44. It depends on what the meaning of joke is. Heh heh

--IMM

[NightTrain]

60. See post #20 for clarification.

[robbedvoter]

45. I will respect any faith - as long as you keep it personal

The moment you want to regulate MY life, you're a joke.

[Elginoid]

46. no...there's nothing funny about theist religions-

or the way that they've done so much to fuck up so many people, and the world in the process.

[DaveSZ]

47. People should be able to believe what they want in a free country

Bush's approach to religion and public life is little different from the Taliban's approach or the Iranian Mullah's approach.

[Elginoid]

51. did i say otherwise?

people can believe whatever fucked-up shit they want, and they get the world they deserve.

"I like your Christ; I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Mohandas Gandhi

[Robbie67]

48. Religion is not a joke

It is a tragedy

"...it's the biggest scam that was ever pulled on mankind, with this whole religion idea. It's superstition. It's responsible for more guilt and fear and shame and murder and divorce and alcoholism and war and death than any other institution." -- George Carlin 10/1/04

[devinsgram]

49. Personally,

I see it as mythology and that is after careful critical thinking, I was raised by a baptist grandmother and I saw what it had done to her. She lived in poverty so she could send money to the bastard, lying evangelists on TV.

[WMliberal]

53. the only issue I agree with Jesse Ventura on

"christianity is for the weak-minded."
To me, I think religion is closer to a mindfuck than a joke.

[Selwynn]

55. Straight DUers -- is homosexuality a joke?

I see zero difference between the subject of this thread and my post.

My faith is part who I am. A gay persons sexual orientation is part of who they are. It is not ok to bash gay people for being gay, and it would not be tolerated to post "Straight DUers - is homosexuality a joke?" But of course, its perfectly tolerated and perfectly acceptable to bash people of faith and posts things like this.

[NightTrain]

59. So religious faith, like homosexuality, is NOT a personal choice?

From which I infer that a person can't change their religious faith even if they want to? That's what you've implied.

Well, guess what? I currently know seven people who all began life as Christians, but are now either Atheists, Pagans, or, in one case, a Buddhist. They all eventually came to realize that they were NOT Christians and decided to "come out." As such, I stand by my assertaion that religion--and a lack of religion, for that matter--is a personal choice.

If Atheism is a part of who I am, it's not because I was born that way; it's because I decided to be an Atheist. OTOH, nobody chooses their sexual orientation, no matter what those hatemongers on the so-called "Religious Right" like to claim.

[Selwynn]

61. My faith is an inseperable part of who I am.

[immoderate]

68. My jokes are an inseperable part of who I am

Let's not malign jokes here.

--IMM

[Tom_Foolery]

56. I have no problem with the basics of religion...

i.e., treat people like you want to be treated. I'm an atheist who is a big Golden Ruler! I wanted to be a preacher when I was a teenager; but like everybody, I had some confusing stuff happen to me that made me doubt that there was a God. I did a lot of studying. In my early 20s, I was a very angry person because I was moving toward atheism and away from what I grew up with. It took me a few more years before I was comfortable with my non-belief. I am now quite happy with the whole thing, and I no longer feel the need to justify it to anyone.

[StupidFOX]

57. Can't answer

I'm deist (sort of stuck between Christianity and agnostic, sorry!)

[hiphopnation]

58. silly

[Zhade]

62. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm starting to wish I'd never posted that fucking poll.

[porphyrian]

65. Religion is like any group of rules...

...it's there for those who need it. The problems I have with religion are the same as those I have with other peoples' rules, and my reaction is proportional to the amount of effort used to enforce that crap on me.

[HeldsBelds]

67. there is nothing

that has caused more wars and death and destruction in this world than organized religion.

[Moderator]

69. I'm locking this thread

Reason :

Flamebait