You think SUVs are a problem now.

[Touchdown]

The other thread is getting a bit long, and I really wanted to get this out.

Statistics shows that 60% of mid and fullsize SUVs (Trailblazer, MallRunners, Navigators, and Delanis) are less than 6 years old. With the quality improvements made over the last 20 years or so, they will have a VERY long life in the used car market.

What happens when Teenagers, young, aggressive drivers, and drunks are able to afford these in the used market? Not only will they be driving deadly monsters, but monsters that are wearing out, and probably not that well taken care of.

SUVs start out with breaks and safety issues that are worse than passenger cars. Most are based on a truck platform with little modification than welding a camper shell on the bed, and adding a rear bench, carpeting, and a CD player. Consequently, most truck based SUVs still have rear drum breaks, not as good as discs. The suspensions also hamper the rear break's effectiveness, since as they're based on truck platforms, they have leaf springs instead of coils. Coil springs, installed on all cars, tend to push the rear wheels to the pavement, and thus providing more impact to the road. Leaf type springs (stacks of bent metal sheets about 2 inches wide you can see under a truck bed) are designed to keep the rear end of a truck's bed up when it's laden with cargo, and smooth out the bumps in the road. So, in hard breaking, and SUV will lurch forward, sometimes lifting the rear of the vehicle off the pavement, and making the front breaks do all the work...translation, in hard breaking, SUVs provide almost, if not half of the breaking effectiveness of cars.

SUVs are no safer for their occupants that cars are. Because of the hard frame construction of them, there are few, if any crumple zones that absorb the impact to protect the passengers, whereas cars (even small ones) have ample crumple zones to soften the blow. The death rate for SUV occupants is 8% higher than the rates for minivan, and midsize cars drivers (Tauruses, Camrys, and Mazda6s), and they are much more likely to die in rollovers, which account for 1000 more deaths than car drivers. Hitting cars accounts for 1000 more deaths to the defense vehicle (the one that was hit) than if they were hit by other cars.

SUVs, by government regulations, are allowed to emit 1.1 grams per mile of smog causing nitrous oxides, which is less than the 3-4 grams of cars in the 60s, but still a lot worse than the 0.2 grams per mile for even today's big luxury cars (Lexus LS400, Lincoln Town Car).

As I was reading this book, I was also reading those two other threads about it, and thought I'd add in some schtuff that I learned.

"High and Mighty:SUVs- the worlds most dangerous vehicles and how they got that way" by Keith Bradsher...Read this book!

[jiacinto]

1. Well I own a Honda Element

and I am happy with it.

[tom_paine]

3. What does that have to do with anything, Carlos?

You also advocate Bushevik Talking Points in attacking the leftists, which of course does their work for them.

Just as my comment is a nonsequitur regarding your comment, so is yours a non sequitur to the intial poster.

What he's asking is, what will become of your beautiful gas guzzler when it wears out and you sell it to by a Hummer? Particularly cosnidering the safety and construction issues brought up quite eloquently above?

And what happens when aggressive youngsters and drunks and Freepers of the trailer park variety star buying these wron-out, ill-maintained, and ultimately badly designed monsters?

But of course, your Fair and Balanced initial reply, I'm sure, is as far as you'll go to address these concerns.

Not that such non sequitur responses, Totalitarian Talking Point responses, and counseling-caution-and-cowardice responses would really raise much of an eyebrow to those who have read your posts all this time...

[jiacinto]

6. I won't buy a Hummer

I like my car. I just hate the snotty attidue that exists to those who own SUVs. Maybe if I didn't have to carry heavy stuff around and drive lots of people I could deal with a compact car. But why on earth do you feel the need to lecture me on what I should drive?

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[jiacinto]

10. Sorry

nt

[m_h_lovecraft]

9. Glad you like it

But the Honda Element is not a "true" SUV in the sense that is being despised. You can call it an SUV, I know the dealership will call it an SUV, but it is not an SUV like the ones Bradsher and some of us who hate SUVs are discussing.

It is not on a light truck frame.
The carriage will not slide off in an accident to decapitate everyone in the car in front.
There is no cow catcher heavy steel killer-grill on the front.
The headlights do not sit so high as to blind anyone else.
It is not a "menacing" vehicle.
It is not a gas guzzler.

So relax and enjoy your vehicle.

[Iris]

11. I hate the snotty attitude of 20something women

driving vehicles they can barely handle while talking on the phone and putting on their lipstick.

I guess when you think the world revolves around you, it's hard to understand that some people might not think everything you do is just dandy.

[jiacinto]

13. I'm not a woman

And I don't do that when I drive.

[greatauntoftriplets]

16. I carry heavy stuff and people around

in a Saturn sedan. And my family is damned tall. LOL.

[Skittles]

24. he's trying to relieve his guilt, Tom

he's just so freakin' happy with his GOP mobile.

[Name removed]

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[hexola]

19. I think SUVs like the Element are...

more of the solution than the problem...They are not anything like the Explorers, Suburbans...etc...They get pretty good mileage...and are relatively lightweight. But still have the SUV allure.

Believe it or not - some people actually need SUVs - A friend just bought a TrailBlazer...He owns a big Dairy Farm - lives down a bumpy stone lane...there were a few times this winter that they had to come pick him up in the tractor...So - I think his SUV-ness is justified. The cows must be milked...and sometimes you have to drive accross corn fields to service equipment...etc.

But I do get bummed when I see the neighbor hop in her Suburban and drive 4 blocks to buy a pack of smokes...or lines of Explorers stuck idling in DC traffic...the folks that get into these things because of fancy commercials showing people doing things THEY WILL NEVER DO...EVER...thats weak...get a car.

I love the Mini...we all should have those...time to scale down.

Course the SUV crowd is paying dearly these days...

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Touchdown]

Can't edit anymore.

Forgot to conclude.

So when the current crop of SUVs gets older and cheaper enough for kids, and drunks to buy, and they won't be taking care of them as well as now, LOOK OUT!

[Jack The Tab]

2. I've never seen an accident involving an SUV that looked..

..like the SUV got off any better than the other vehicle. Any accident I've seen with an SUV, the SUV is usually fugged up. And as expensive as they are to buy, imagine the repairs.

[baldguy]

14. I have seen a few collisions too.

The most recent one, the SUV ended up on its back. The sedan it hit got its passenger compartment crushed.

SUVs are a menace to the road. If we can't totally ban them, they should have a safety tax on them, and the insurence for them should be 10 or twenty time higher than regular autos.

[KG]

15. every SUV accident i have seen has the SUV on its side

they are extemely and inherently dangerous.

which is ironic considering most sellers and buyers claim they get them to 'keep their families safe'

[pippin]

25. suv accidents

the accidents that are really troubling are the ones where suvs back and run over children. there isn't a month that goes by where there isn't a report of an accident in the papers where someone driving an suv runs over a child or a person while backing.

a couple of months ago, my husband on his morning walk witnessed a woman driving a humvee who let her dog out of her vehicle then ran over it accidentally--the dog at ground level was clearly out of her sight range. so there was this creature screaming in pain dragging what was left of itself along the drive way coupled with the woman who was in hysterics when she discovered what she had done.

visibility is a factor. vehicles as large as some of these suvs also
just don't have good turning capabilities and quick turns to avoid running into objects/people are not easy--ever watched someone trying to manouver a hulking suv in a tight zone?

my objection is simply that i hate this trend toward larger and larger everything--gigantic houses (starter palaces) bigger cars, enormous portions of food and ofcourse larger humans. let's be honest, it's wretched excess, a part somehow of this whole greedy culture of consumerism and it's not pretty.

[Gingersnap]

4. interesting point

but don't you think some of the owners of SUVs right now are "kids and drunks"? The way you put this makes it sound like poor people, or people who buy used cars are less responsible drivers. Any proof of that?

What worries me about SUVs as used cars is the environmental pollution. Once they finally go out of style, the uber rich will find some other status symbol and they will become the most common used car--and hence car--on the American (including Mexico) market. Right now there are enough "regular" cars in circulation as used cars that it dilutes some of their environmental impacts (and gas guzzling). But have you ever been in a rich neighborhood where 75% of the cars on the streets are SUVs? That's the future.

[Touchdown]

7. I didn't mean it to come off that way.

However. the Insurance statistics show that young drivers, whether inexperienced or agressive, get into more accidents, by a wide margin than middle aged people with families, who are the current dominant crop of SUV buyers. Drunk drivers, also according to the insurance industry, also are more likely to buy older cars.

I wasn't implying anything more.:-)

[Clete]

5. Well, if gas prices keep climbing, that alone may

start a reverse trend to more fuel efficient vehicles. Yes the rich will always be wasteful but hopefully there will be fewer of them by the time Bush finishes wrecking the economy.

[the_real_38]

12. A couple of numbers ....

... the amount of oil in the Alaskan Wilderness is between 6 and 16 billion barrels. We could save that much oil (i.e. the effect would be having pulled it out of the ground) by raising fuel mileage standards between 2.7 and 6.7 mpg.

Most experts agree that global oil production will peak between 2010 and 2025. Imagine what people in the future are going to think when they look back and they see American savages from our time who thought oil just lasted forever, and bought hummers and the like getting 6 miles to the gallon. Apes. Something like that.

That pretty much sums up my ideas about SUV owners

[Sterling]

18. I agree

They already look like monkeys to me.

[Touchdown]

23. Did you catch Nighline last Monday night?

...or anybody else?

It was an expose on hydrogen fuel cells, and it looks very promising. Initially it would still be polluting, because the easiest way to get hydrogen is from natural gas, but they interviewed a scientist whose studying how photosynthesis works, in an effort to one day replicate what leaves do in extracting hydrogen from oxygen in water, then it would truly become a limitless energy source.

They even had a Hyundai SUV that ran on just hydrogen fuel cells. I had no idea that this technology was this mature. I was sure this would be at least 10 years away before prototypes started to come out.

All we need is the infrastructure in place (hydrogen plants, hydro pumps at gas stations, etc), which may be a tall orderl, considering the chicken and egg syndrome that's hampering the Hi Def TV market now.

[gristy]

29. Hydrogen is an energy STORAGE material

replicate what leaves do in extracting hydrogen from oxygen in water, then it would truly become a limitless energy source.

Sunlight is an energy SOURCE. The challenge is to convert the energy SOURCE (such as sunlight) into something usable (such as electricity) or usable AND transportable in a vehicle (such as hydrogen).

[NJCher]

22. my new neighbor

has a Hummer. Made me sick that someone like that moved into the neighborhood. Worst part of all is that they got an excellent price on a beautiful old Tudor mansion. Life is grossly unfair.


Cher

[Mel]

26. one thing not everyone

that has to buy the old cars soon to be SUV's is a drunk kid or a freeper some of them are going to be low income workers.
Let's think about it, about the only people not driving those things now are lower income workers seeing as parents can buy or let their kids borrow theirs,
drunks well I'm sure there's drunks that drive them now, freepers I've seen a lot of them with Bush stickers on them, and there are plenty of owners being aggressive in the darn things now!

When they are old and are all over the place guess who will be buying them low wage earners.
Won't that stink only low income earners will be able to afford those gas guzzlers that aren't even safe?
Damn lucky duckies and under *Bush the number of lucky duckies is rising.

That's one thing about being low income if you need a car and there isn't any kind of mass transportation you end up having to buy a cheap car and usually the cheapest ones are big and guzzle gas.

How would I work on fixing that problem? I say we work on getting some serious 'mass transportation' in this country!
Course, if gas keeps on going up like it is who's going to be able to afford to drive the darn things?
We could always buy them up make them into art for 'display' then we could sell them back to rich people. :) and buy ourselves a fuel cell car :evilgrin: stranger things have happened.

[neomonkey]

27. Speaking as a car enthusiast

I don't necessarily agree with this:

With the quality improvements made over the last 20 years or so, they will have a VERY long life in the used car market.

Quality improvements? Ha, I must laugh, especially when you're talking of some of the garbage GM and Ford put out. I've always said that by the time your typical Escalade or Expedition or Yukon is 5 or 7 years old, it will start to creak and disassemble like any other GM or Ford product has done since the 70's. I believe that the SUV craze has made many people buy American who might not have in the past and once they get a good taste of some that great US of A quality control, they will realize they have got tons of worthless steel on their hands.

However...Toyota, Nissan, Honda and their associated upmarket brands have been flooding the market with SUV's also. My wife owns a Lexus SUV and that damn thing seems like it'll just last for-fucking-ever.

[vision]

28. Studies show that the length of time a car is kept

has risen from 3-5 years to 7 years. That is before it becomes a used vehicle. I work in parts and really many of the vehicles of the '70's and '80's are as in good a condition as anything new.

[ProudGerman]

30. I agree

Its a myth that cars produced today are junk compared to older vehicles. The Escalades, and Expeditions of today may creak, and rattle over bumps, but I'm sure they won't "fall apart" anytime soon.

Hell, cars built in the early 90's are still running strong and rock solid.

added on edit:

The Rubbermaid Element is not an SUV. Being a big box on wheels does not an SUV make. We're talking about V8 behemoths that have half the cargo room of minivans.....but are bought for cargo purposes....*scratches head*.