white collar fools: you want fries with that ???

[welshTerrier2]

it seems to me there's always been something of a libertarian leaning among many tech workers ... times were good and they could command almost any salary they wanted ... employers knew that if they lost a tech worker, they might not be able to find a replacement ... what a great world it was to be calling the shots ... and there was no end in sight to these glorious times ...

and then, poof ... it was gone ... i know many highly skilled tech workers who either are or have recently been out of work ... salaries are being driven down ... layoffs are commonplace ... clearly, times have changed ... and it's not clear the good times will be returning anytime soon ... India and China are turning out millions of software engineers who work for far less money than their American counterparts ... and it's bye-bye job and maybe even bye-bye company ...

the point of all this is that it's time for white collar workers, especially tech workers, to take a fresh look at unionizing ... one worker against a big corporation doesn't stand a chance ... and a whole country of white collar workers, each struggling for his or her own self interest, doesn't stand a chance either ... we are being systematically sold to the lowest bidder ... and the point of unionizing goes beyond just the benefits of collective bargaining; in unionizing a force for political change is brought together to focus on workers' issues ...

if you believe massive job loss could never happen here, just ask all those family farmers in the midwest ... why would any of them have ever believed farming could become "agri-business" run by mega-corporations ??? "farmers will always have work because people have to eat" ... and then, poof ... they're selling shoes at Walmart ...

unions are not the solution to every problem faced by white collar workers ... but workers, standing isolated against a pro-business government and pro-profit corporations will always draw the shortest straw ...it is well past time for white collar workers to pool their resources for whatever strength can be harnessed by standing together ...

the time for ALL workers to start fighting back has arrived ... either we stop the job hemorrhaging now, or we face a very dark future ... those who stand alone in their pursuit of the great American dream are fooling themselves ...

[annabanana]

1. "don't tell me your troubles. I don't have the time to spare.....

But if you want to get together and fight, good buddy, that's what I want to hear!"

There! Song's good and stuck in your head now!

[welshTerrier2]

2. sheesh ...

if i knew i was going to have to learn all those union songs i never would have started this thread ...

[FlemingsGhost]

3. I agree. One problem, though ...

Americans--by and large--are timid, and deathly afraid of empowering themselves. Take a look around. Sticking one's neck out, brings with it the fear of getting your head cut off. It's much easier to go along chasing illusions, embracing myth.

Forming and nurturing a labor union requires risk and personal engagement beyond opting for a mocha instead of the usual latte.

[welshTerrier2]

4. as the darkness gathers around them ...

i think they will come to fear the staying more than the going ... I fully agree with you that there is a great inertia caused by timidity and fear ...

too bad more can't "see a little further down the road" ... starting now can only help ... waiting will be costly ...

interestingly enough, I heard a commercial a few days ago on AAR ... it was paid for by the Communications Workers of America ... they were issuing a call to all tech workers to join their union ...

[FlemingsGhost]

5. When a majority of Americans stop fighting each other ...

the jig is up.

Sooner or later, the change will come.

[welshTerrier2]

7. funny you should bring this up ...

i'm actually working up a thread called "A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand" ...

it is unclear to me whether the U.S. can survive if we really have two distinctly different ideologies living under one roof ... the "House Divided" quote came from Lincoln with respect to the North-South division during Civil War times ... it seems like those wounds may never have really healed and Lincoln's words may be as ominous today as they were then ... perhaps more ominous ...

if one group waves the Constitution and the other group waves the bible, i'm not sure rational discussion and clear communication will ever be possbile ...

i'm afraid you may be a bit more optimistic than i am ...

[Kanary]

14. You got that right. We Merkins *ALLOWED* ourselves to be

divided, and ....

*We* *still* *do*.

Just look here at DU. How much "togetherness" is there, really? How much of a spirit of "we're all in this together"?

Not much, not really.

Until/unless we all get a clue about that, we're up a tree without a paddle.

Kanary

[welshTerrier2]

15. two reactions ...

one, which is really a response to the question you asked ("How much "togetherness" is there, really?"), is that once this election is over, i think the great differences under DU's "big tent" will rapidly become more apparent ... I, for one, am struggling to remain a Democrat ...

but the other reaction is a "glass is half full" argument ... i really must commend DU'ers for coming together in their fight for Kerry and against bush ... there are very, very few who don't plan to support Kerry ...

I was extremely critical of Kerry way back during the primaries ... but those days are far, far away ... i'm on board 110% ... no hesitations ... no regrets ... bush has got to go ... there is no alternative ... and it is that understanding that holds us all together ... at least for now ...

[Kanary]

17. Interesting you chose to see it in terms of *-JK

Especially since I mentioned neither.

That was not at all what I had in mind.

:shrug:

Oh well.......

Kanary

[welshTerrier2]

19. i didn't just see "it" in one dimension ...

as i said "once this election is over, i think the great differences under DU's "big tent" will rapidly become more apparent" ... the focus of this statement encompasses ALL issues ... not just on bush and jk ...

on the other hand, I believe the transitory "togetherness" I currently see is indeed focussed on *-JK ...

[Nay]

6. There were some serious attempts years ago to unionize

programmers, computer engineers, techs, etc., but it never went anywhere for the exact reason you give -- the workers were nearly all young men, very often libertarians who thought they would ALWAYS be able to call the shots and didn't need a 'corrupt,' 'daddy' union, to which they would have to pay a few bucks in dues.

No amount of history would sway them -- they knew better. Sadly, they were in a perfect position to secure a safe and prosperous future for themselves: they weren't scared of anyone, they did have the upper hand with employers for a long time, and they were overwhelmingly white males. They could have formed a union, or joined the communications workers union, with little interference from anybody. They had the skills, the pull, the correct race/gender, and in their selfishness and lack of depth, they blew it for all of us.

Let's hope they feel real "free" now, working at the Auto Zone or at a cheapo mom-and-pop operation somewhere at a quarter of their former salaries.

[welshTerrier2]

8. well said ...

i ascribe at least part of the problem to a successful campaign by the right to spur generational warfare ... many of the gen-x'ers i used to work with were very sold on the idea that the "evil baby boomers" (i'm one) were going to suck the system dry and leave nothing for them but massive debt ...

this skepticism about the federal government and federal "safety net" programs aligned many of them with the "reagan revolution" ... i have to tell you i was stunned to see people younger than myself with such conservative views ... i remember many of them going on for MBA's so they could be little junior managers ... and many of them just loved that buzz phrase "entrepreneurial spirit" ...

i still see a surprising conservatism in many of my younger co-workers ... but i also am very aware of a massive awakening of those in their late teens and the twenty somethings during this election ... perhaps all we're observing is the swinging back to the left of the eternal pendulum ... I wonder if those who believed all that libertarian crap continue to do so today ...

until more people see that we are weak when we're divided and that we must stand together against those with massive power and massive wealth, only small gains are possible ...

[Crachet2004]

9. Think of all the glass towers, full of 'knowledge workers', most of whom..

Can be replaced with an internet connection. To survive in the global economy planned for us, is going to require having skills that require the performer of the work in question to be physically present-but how many barbers, welders, nurses, and so on, do we need?

And the welfare states of Europe, that were supposed to have been doomed decades ago for being uncompetitive, are still plugging along, with better everything than we have, education, healthcare, etc...and in many cases, a higher quality economic output.

Funny that we do not hear that outsourcing is much of a problem in heavily unionized Europe, isn't it?

And really, it is a two-pronged attack on our workforce...because wages are being held down for all kinds of labor by illegals crossing the borders...so even if you do happen to be an ace welder, for example, there is STILL someone as good as you, standing there, waiting to take your job for less money.

Neither Party seems willing to close the borders, nor demand a quid-pro-quo from cheap labor countries.

Neither is there much momentum in the Democratic Party for legislative aid to organized labor...instead, their throats are cut by the likes of Clinton, with NAFTA-but the game is, working people have no one else to vote for, right?

The whole thing is a disgrace, from corrupt corporations and politicians, to bought union leaders.

And the white-collar workers who have voted their entire lives against unions and working people are about to get their come-uppance.

Most of them don't know how to DO anything, really-can't work on cars, build a house, work on a boat, raise their own food, or much of anything else outside their own little over-specialized niche.

Most sadly, they do not know how to fight...never having had to scramble.

I feel sorry for them, but mostly, I feel pity for them because I KNOW they are too brainwashed to join the very union that just might be able to help save them.

There is nothing new under the sun...I advise everyone who has made it to the end of this rather long post to read two books by Jack London: "Burning Daylight", and "The Iron Heel". Especially those of you still in college...while you are getting that Master's in Marketing, or Phd in History, you might just want to drop by the associate college for HVAC or welding!

[Jackpine Radical]

10. Thanks for the post.

I read Burning Daylight many years ago, as well as most of the rest of London. A good socialist, he. So sad that he burned himself out so early.

[welshTerrier2]

13. knowledge workers

i'm not as clear as you are about the impact of immigration on job loss ... it's not that i disagree ... i just really lack information on the subject ...

but a significant cause of job loss that i've seen up close and personal, in addition to outsourcing, is the endless stream of corporate mergers ... bank one merges with bank two and they have tons of layoffs ... then, bank onetwo merges with bank three, and they have tons of layoffs ...

our pro-business government has been sold to the highest bidder ... trust me, that's not big labor ...

it's time to start blocking and rolling back the tyranny of endless corporate consolidation ...

[CoffeeAnnan]

20. Mergers and consolidations in industries like banking,accounting

and other paperwork heavy businesses is a direct outgrowth of the efficiencies that are now possible with computers.This may be inevitable regardless of outsourcing or immigration.

[welshTerrier2]

24. inevitable ??

well, perhaps we could consolidate the entire country into one, superefficient, computer-enhanced business ... imagine the economies of scale ... those not employed by "THE company" could just, i don't know, die or just fade away or move to South America ... who needs them anyway ...

i see nothing "inevitable" about allowing businesses and the rules we set for them to hurt our workers, our citizens and our families ... and we do have the power to prevent these mergers ... we once used to care about the Sherman Act and the Clayton Act and other legislation that understood that centralized corporate control of an industry was not desirable ... they didn't just pass these laws because they didn't have efficient software and efficient computer networks ...

there's nothing inevitable about it ... the only thing that might be inevitable is that nothing will ever change as long as people believe that business must be free to be as efficient as they desire ... in welshTerrier2Land, people would come first ... corporations would have as their first mission to serve the best interests of the American people ... if you want the benefits of incorporation under our laws, you must first act in the public interest ... there is nothing wrong with seeking profits, but to "buy" politicians, to pay lobbyists to help you evade environmental regulations, product safety regulations, worker safety regulations etc., and to reward your shareholders more than your workers will get you a one way ticket to Palookaville ... put more succinctly, i would not allow you to continue doing business ...

so, if you don't believe citizens have a right to restrict business as i would do, than perhaps mergers and the subsequent loss of jobs are inevitable ... but i think it's well past the time that we should "take our country back" from those without a conscience ... what the corporate overlords are doing is just plain un-American and I suggest we try to awaken people and put a stop to it ...

[CoffeeAnnan]

11. My wife and I were talking to friends of ours who are partners in a highly

regarded accounting firm.My friend's wife said something that is truly frightening.She said that out of nearly 100 small companies that are her clients, almost 90% have plans to move their manufacturing operations to either India or China within the next five years.Together, this would represent a loss of about 10,000 jobs.
All sorts of middle level professionals would be affected and even some senior management people will be out of work.She was even afraid that her accounting firm may have to move to India because big firms are already finding that there are very competent accountants in India who can perform her type of work for a fraction of her earnings.
She said,"the ground is shifting under our feet.We live in very expensive homes and our lifestyle very soon is going to be built on sand.".

After that outing with my friends, I am even more scared than before.
I have several children that are either finishing college or beginning their careers.The future for them has never been more uncertain than it is now.

[welshTerrier2]

12. the answer to outsourcing

welcome to DU, CoffeeAnnan ...

i've started working on another thread (that's currently incoherent) to explain what we need to do to deal with outsourcing ...

the gist of the thread will be that we cannot continue to allow "American companies" to export our jobs ... yes, it's true there is a massive wage differential and our higher cost of living makes us not just less competitive but just plain not competitive ...

Kerry has talked about relatively small penalties for companies that export jobs ... for example, he might block them from receiving federal contracts ... he also talks about providing tax incentives for companies to keep jobs here ... but it's highly questionable whether these measures will alter the unpatriotic, exploitive conduct of "American" corporations ...

the bottom line, without going into great detail here, is that we need to put the screws to these companies ... if they want to do business in this country, they will not act like traitors ... there may be some cases where companies couldn't compete without exporting at least a part of their workforce ... but for many companies, this is just not the case ... i would impose severe tax penalties on companies that export more than 10% of their workforce ... and stockholders in these companies would not receive lower capital gains rates on the sale of the company's stock ...

we, the people, should not allow our corporate overlords to screw the American people and then hand them favorable tax treatment ... it's our damned country not theirs ... this free market, free trade shit is destroying the economy and will soon threaten our way of life ...

[CoffeeAnnan]

16. I agree with every single word you have said, WT2.But, I am not

sure how we are going to bring any kind of pressure on the corporate overlords whose single minded pursuit of profits to the exclusion of everything else is killing off whole communities.My question to you would also be this: Assuming we are able to impose tax penalties on corporations that export our jobs, what is to prevent them from bringing in whole loads of people from India or China over here on temporary visas and get the work done and rotate with a new crew when their visas expire?This is exactly the solution that was proposed to me some years ago when I was visiting China on behalf of my employer.

The point is there are too many loopholes for us to fight.It seems like we need to develop solutions that take advantage of our creativity and battle the cheap labor countries with increased productivity.

[welshTerrier2]

21. creativity and productivity

man, i would love to agree with your "we can do better" optimism ...

but i don't ... productivity rates have been increasing in the U.S. at a rapid rate for years ... but nothing is going to justify paying an American tech worker, say $300/day, when you could hire 20 Indian tech workers for a day for the same price ... i'm good but i'm not that good ...

believing more creativity and more productivity invests in the capitalist myth ... work hard (or harder) and you can get ahead ... but, sadly, this can never be ... no matter how well a worker does, they will always be sold down the river when it serves the stockholders ... period ... if American engineers invent a better car, or a better way to build cars, the technology will still be exported ... and for so called "knowledge workers", what are you going to do, design a better "do loop" ?? design a faster way for accountants to make closing journal entries ??

corporations and their hired government guns want to have it both ways ... they want access to American markets but want to export American jobs ... we should not allow this to occur ... and how do we stop this evil, unpatriotic process ...

we need to educate our fellow citizens ... and trust me, we've done a miserable job so far ... it's time to dethrone the myth of the free market ... free market capitalism really is nothing more than the wealthy seeking more freedom from government regulations ... and most of those regulations are designed to protect both workers and consumers from corporate abuses ...

finally, to directly respond to the question you raised (what is to prevent them from bringing in whole loads of people from India or China over here on temporary visas), we just need power to block these visas ... there are not "too many loopholes" if we control the government ... without going into too many details, i would favor 1. barring all companies that move their HQ's overseas from receiving federal or state contracts and 2. allowing capital gains treatment (for stockholders) only in company's whose workforce is 90% American citizens (or maybe American residents) and whose HQ's are located in the U.S. ...

if we have no power and an uneducated, uninvolved electorate, none of this can be achieved ... but we have to start somewhere ... and we have to start now ...

[Skittles]

18. the salary greediness of the IT workers in the 90's

provided great incentive for offshoring

[welshTerrier2]

23. perhaps so but ...

it's tough to get too focussed on this when we've seen CEO pay explode to more than 400 times the average workers pay ...

I suppose there's always plenty of greediness to go around but i, for one, prefer to keep my focus on the big boys ... i'm not quite sure how i would go about dealing with "greedy workers" but i know exactly what i would do when the interests of shareholders take precedence over the interests of workers ...

[JCMach1]

22. Great bumper sticker: "Would you like fries with that Bush vote?"

:)

[welshTerrier2]

25. kick for the daytime crowd

n/t

[ReverendDeuce]

26. Well said! nt

[welshTerrier2]

27. thanks, Reverend ...

and welcome to DU !!

you're apparently a man of very few words but i like the two you chose ...

[ReverendDeuce]

28. Thanks...

Thanks for the welcome! I just registered yesterday after lurking since right before Debate #1. I saw a bumper sticker for this place cruising around Omaha so I thought I'd check it out. I figured now it's time to start participating in the big discussion. :)

I've been blogging and such for a little over three years and I have no idea how I never came across the site before...