Help...... i need some response

[RareLubbockDem]

Let me set the scene........ I'm living in a semi-wealthy Lubbock Tx neighborhood, so my wife and I and are the rare liberals. It's like they think we're crazy........

so, I went to a neighborhood party tonight and talked with two women there who are great friends, and they were offended, but couldn't really tell me why, about an article I sent them on how the working poor suffer under *.

One kept saying "it's like you don't think WE do anything for the poor or the sick. you don't know, etc." And honestly, I think they probably DO a lot for them. How can I help them to see that their political ideas don't mesh with that?

Please help..........

[NMDemDist2]

1. what do they do? and what about poor folks who don't live by

nice rich white ladies who practice charity? are those children supposed to starve?

[vetwife]

2. Ask them

Are they only helping organizations that sometime don't distribute the money as should be, or are they up close and personally helping strangers or just people they know. My husband and I gave food and shelter to people we have never met before. Ask them, there is a difference in how one helps. Unless you know for a fact and see expressions or hear a Thank you, you don't really know if you have helped the right people or if it even got to them. By the way we have done this as recently as yesterday. We are broke people too but these folks were worse off. Test the waters and see if it is tepid, lukewarm or just barely off freezing to ease an obligation to do something. Also ask them if they do it for a tax write off ! Or from the heart with nothing expected in return. There is your political difference.

[mourningdove92]

3. Man, I was raised in Lubbock Texas. Graduated from

Coronado High, and spent a year at Texas Tech.

What can you do? Try to get them back on subject. The facts of how the
"working poor" need health insurance, other benefits, decent wages."

Then offer to pray for them. To help "open their eyes".

[RareLubbockDem]

5. i know......

Believe me, I know this..... maybe i'm just not good at arguing my points, especially with people I care about.

[RareLubbockDem]

4. very interesting responses

but I honestly felt like I was under attack from them, like I had insulted them by sending information on what the last few years have done for this country.

Is there any way to get through to them?

[Eloriel]

17. Apparently they personalized the information

And of course, the "Oh, I feel so attacked" gambit is a great way to avoid facing the subject, acknowleding its importance, acknowledging their part in it. Nice way to shrug things off, put YOU off balance, and make YOU feel bad instead of them.

The other thing that occurred to me is: ahh, the Plantation Owners' syndrome. "But our slaves are HAPPY slaves. We do so much for them and all."

Finally, I met a young woman once (very liberal) whose parents were wealthy Texans, friends of James Baker. "Jimmy" they call him. It was a conversation with her about her upbringing, her parents, etc., that made me realize why there IS an "on the wrong side of the tracks" in so many cities and towns in America. The rich are desperate to protect themselves from having to SEE the effects of their lifestyles, policies, selfishness and greed. Of course your "friends" are going to attack back.

If you're expecting them to have any compassion (which is a requisite for the kind of material you tried to share with them to hit home in ANY way), you're probably barking up the wrong tree. That's why they're Republicans to start with, IMO. Further, especially if they're fundamentalists or have that in their background, as Howard Dean once said about Bush, they may harbor the belief that "if you're poor, you deserve it, and if you're rich, you deserve it."

You might be able to talk to them about other things -- endless debt for their children and grandchildren, increased INsecurity at home due to the Iraq war, etc., but unless you have some reason to think these women have a heart of some kind, some depth of compassion, you might as well save your breath.

[RareLubbockDem]

20. makes me sad to think that,

but maybe you're right about that. Wasted breath.

But I just can't think that way.

[Mandate My Ass]

6. Just tell them you'll be nicer if they'll be smarter

that should take the wind right outta their sails. :-)

[RareLubbockDem]

7. hahaha

ya know, that may be my problem--that they see me that way.

but fer crying out loud,,,, i really do, i just think that's funny.

[Child_Of_Isis]

8. Let them stay stupid,

and when a personal, or financial, or natural disaster knocks them down a few pegs, and they go all Dem-ish on you, you can smile at them condescending like. :-)

Like my dear old mother says...what goes up, must come down.

[RareLubbockDem]

10. i know, i know......but

that's just it. I'm not trying to be condescending or brutal or forceful with my thoughts. I just want them to think about it. I love these people. They really are good people. I don't want to alienate or offend, but i DO want them to think.

[Kanary]

11. If they're Christian, you have a fertile field to till.

Otherwise, as my European friend has commented many times, USians don't have any other means of socializing people to care for each other. We aren't brought up that way...... it's ME, MY, MINE. We don't think in terms of the greater good, or in terms of the tribe and larger community.

What would you think of sharing a video with them that pretty clearly delineates what happens to poor folk because of political policy?

I thank you for trying....... that means very much to me!!

:pals:

Kanary

[RareLubbockDem]

12. thanks

i'd never really thought of it that way, that I have such a fertile field. That's very true, even in west Texas, but maybe not AS true.

What kind of video?

[Kanary]

28. videos, etc.

It makes me sad to hear.... "I'd never really thought of it that way.....", as that is *precisely* what the church should be teaching. If there is 8any* central message of the New Testament, that would certainly be it. sigh...... (BTW... that isn't a comment directed at *you* -- it's a sign of how the church and their pastors have fallen down on their jobs.........)

I have a video that shows what happened to a group of people in NYC when they got caught in Clinton's welfare deform. There are at least 2 deaths that are mentioned, so any one with any heart at all would respond to that.

I have another video that is more global, but does show the systems at work that create poverty.

What just occurred to me, though, is that many, many years ago I wrote a book of stories of homeless people. It was jointly published by the Lutheran and Episcopalian dioceses (diocesies? diocesees? aw, heck........) So, there are some religious quotes in there, if that would be of any help. The artwork was done by a friend of mine who is a Sister of Loretto (see how ecumenical I am? hehehe) The book was written with the express purpose of educating people who just don't know and don't understand. It was used in many churches, and seemed to be successful in removing the scales from most eyes. Of course, that was mostly in a group context, and that may make some sort of difference.

There really aren't any copies left anymore, but if you would like, and think it might help, I could scan some pages of a copy I have left, and send them to you to print.

Think about it, and let me know.

And, again, thanks for your concern. It's a spirit-lifter for me!

Kanary

[Child_Of_Isis]

15. Sounds like they don't want to think about it.

I understand them being nice people and you loving them and all, but is it really your job to enlighten them? You cannot make a blind person see. Why even put yourself through the misery?

[RareLubbockDem]

18. It's not really misery.

It's just that I feel that way I do, and I won't hide it. I don't like the idea that feeling that way is so threatening to them. I'm not saying they're hostile towards me or anything. I mean, these are some of our best friends. I just wish they could see things outside of their own little world, and I'm obviously not doing a real good job at it.

[Child_Of_Isis]

23. Don't blame yourself because they refuse to face reality. n/t

[WLKjr]

9. Tell them there is NEVER enough done

It's never enough and one can always do more.

Tell them "Who is we? you two ladies or 'the group' of rich people?"

[The Straight Story]

13. Don't the poor suffer under most presidents :)

Hence the term poor... ;)

Trying tell a poor person that being poor is good under x versus y.

But really, I get what you're saying, it just seems an odd thing to say sometimes. The question needs to focus around why there are poor people and homeless folks.

Some studies I have read on homelessness from varied sources show that it has increased yearly from 1987-1997 - so who is to blame and what are the causes? Was it clinton, bush 1, congress, companies, etc?

5 people I know personally are poor - and all of them are that way by choice (ie, they honestly do not want to work, they work a few weeks, buy drugs, then quit - my niece being one of them). Now obviously not all want to be that way :) My niece wants to own her own business and won't keep a job more than two weeks on average (and she has had more than I can count).

Now we cannot treat or believe that all who are poor are so because they wish to be (as noted on another thread my bro-in-law's brother is homeless, and he wishes to be - but that is a long story).

Perhaps we should say that poor people have more oppurtunities under kerry than bush to not be poor, but I guess that is just semantical nit-picking...

Perhaps too we should stress less the president's role in these matters and try to look at the broader causes and address though. I doubt kerry will end homelessness, clinton didn't (sorry I got off the poor track and went to the really poor track of the homeless).

People are poor for many reasons, some of which I doubt we can fix - but I think they have a better chance of surviving under a democratic president and congress as we see the issues involved in why people are that way as bigger than a few items (like, people choose to be).

My niece would like to have money, but she will not do anything to get it. She lives with my parents (not hers), complains all the time, quits or gets fired every single job, and then whines about the economy (as it relates to her) and says it is bush's fault (which is good because she is voting kerry) - what I wonder is how will kerry being in office change anything for her when she is the one that needs to change (of course, she told me today that she does not like kerry but likes bush less, so I am not sure there is much hope for her).

I guess my problems with the discussion about the poor boils down to the fact that there is no single group of poor - there are many subsets to the whole group and I hope we look more in depth over the years to help those who need it and want it.

I was there myself once. On welfare, injured at work, utilities being shut off - it was terrible. All I needed was help to get through it all. The government screwed me (but I won in court finally) but in the end my marriage suffered, my kids suffered, and the only help I got was from salvation army and churches. I tried hard, worked well at the jobs I later got, then got screwed at a few of them - like one company that hired people in as temps for 90 days, then hired you in for 90 days, and as soon as insurance was to kick in they fired people, especially those with families. I broke two production records, never missed work, and a week before my family insurance was to start I was canned (as were others over time I knew). It sucked.

This was all during the clinton years - so my hope now is that kerry will lead, that he will truly help the many who are screwed over in this country, and that he will help the many who need him. I didn't blame clinton for my problems (if I had, would not have voted for him again or gore). We cannot let this end with him getting elected, we need a change in congress, and we need to keep on the ball. Nov 2 will be but one small victory for us, but we have many more fights to engage in. I hope we all at DU can keep working together for the betterment of the people!

Again, sorry for the rant :)

[RareLubbockDem]

16. best point

I read that and what stuck out:

"I guess my problems with the discussion about the poor boils down to the fact that there is no single group of poor - there are many subsets to the whole group and I hope we look more in depth over the years to help those who need it and want it."

That's an awesome point.... but what bothers me is the blinders-on mindset that only sees one side, and assumes that I, on the other hand, only see the other side.

[The Straight Story]

24. I used to

Because all the poor people I knew were that way because they just never cared.

My other niece - she has a dick for a husband who beats her, he makes money selling drugs and working once in a great while, and they just had their third kid (I think she is 22). Tomorrow they leave for WV to live in a trailer doing god knows what. They were living with my brother but he is selling the house and they have no where to return to (well, she was, he would not let that loser stay there, and he has cried and cried about the grandkids leaving).

When I was poor it was mostly because I had no skills, married young, had kids, and could not earn hardly any money. I blamed myself mostly (except when I was off work for an injury and the workers comp people screwed things up, but I won that later and settled out of court with just enough to get things back to normal).

When I was 30 my wife and I split up. I made a new life, studied hard, worked all the time, and now I make 65k+ and have climbed up the food chain. But damn - there were times I just needed some help and someone to care and it seemed so few did care and those that did could not help much. I needed the aid of others, things were so bad I OD'd on prescription drugs.

I think now I would help those who don't want to work if it meant helping those who were in dire straits could be a reality. I think most want to, and if some take advantage of the system such is life. If my nieces leech off the system I am ok with that as long as people who really need it can make a better life for them and their kids. I still shudder when I think of the water dept coming to turn off my water the day I got out of the hospital after I od'd and my kids sitting there wondering what was going on....

[Child_Of_Isis]

22. Poor people are lazy...

just ask shrub. BTW, addictions are not a choice, and those who buy drugs with every bit of money they get, and lose jobs due to drugs, are usually addicts. My background is in social services, and contrary to popular belief, the poor work. And they work very hard.

[Kanary]

25. Thank you, Child_Of_Isis! I was trying very hard not to boil over at

that post. Even "Dems" are so used to thinking in terms of "us" and "them" that they don't seem to realize that those generalizations about any group can be hurtful to those right in front of you.

The policies of the Dems in recent years have made it acceptable to voice the most discriminatory and dismissing opinions.

Sometimes it's just overwhelming and just plain depressing.

Your words are more support than you know. :thumbsup:

Kanary

[RareLubbockDem]

26. yep, you hit it on the head.

It's a shame that the wealthy who say "i work for mine and I should be able to keep it, etc......" don't realize that they don't work NEAR as hard as most people.

Thanks for your insight.

[The Straight Story]

29. Indeed

Many poor do work hard, my hardest work was when I was poor.

But some poor are lazy sadly. My wife worked in social services in CA and was astounded at how many people just wanted to work the system and avoid actually getting jobs. She left there to work in an aids clinic where she felt she could be more help. That was a hard job - she got to know so many people well, and then they died, just wasted away.

How can one differentiate from the lazy and those who work their butts off? I don't think a large system can, so I would rather give aid to all. So many people have so many stories, all which seem different. As a wealthy society we should insure the basic needs are met for all people, those that want more will be able to attain it and those that don't won't.

Compassion on a broad scale means some that don't need or deserve the help will get it, but that is the cost sometimes of caring. I don't care if people had too many kids when they weren't financially able to feed them - that is not the fault of the kids. Rush and others seem to think helping people broadly will 'enable' those who wish to leech off the system and will encourage more not to work - I think it will help them myself. Those that don't make enough can look to the government to assist them and use that to supplement their income, they will work hard because they know that it will benefit them, like having two jobs basically.

We know not all jobs will pay enough - ok, we can make up the difference because we know that some jobs are worth less money wise in the scheme of things than others. Just because some jobs are not worth as much does not mean the people working them are. They are humans - men, women, children - and true compassion would dictate that we make sure they can eat and have a roof over their head.

The whole thing does not have to be fair to all, some will get more than others and will use the system. It does need to be there though for all because all people are worth something. We all use the resources of the planet and the labor, we should all have our basic needs met. Some will have more than others, which is ok - but we should all have the basics imho.

[camero]

30. So, what jobs are worth poverty level wages?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

[The Straight Story]

35. This depends on the person

Example: When my niece was 16-21 she lived with my parents (well, she is 25 and still does). Had she worked poverty level jobs she could have saved, educated herself, moved up in her jobs, etc as her outflow of income was very small.

Poverty level jobs are mainly geared towards teens and the like who don't have the large overhead like housing and utilities.

When I was 16 I earned 3.35 and hour, which was a lot to me. I could have saved that for when I was older and planning on moving out, but I did not (my fault).

This is not to say that we don't have a plethora of underpaying jobs. But the way to handle it is not always more taxes - example, raise property taxes and rents go up. Set a minimum wage of $40/hr and outsourcing will go through the roof.

There is no one answer. There are many. Like educating people young about saving their money, not buying things they don't need (like those $50 sneakers), how to start their own businesses, and so on. Then there is better social services, making sure we can help those who find themselves in need of it both financially and through education. There are many ways to attack the problem, and there are many causes of it.

When I was in my 20's, married with three kids, I could have done things better. Lived in a cheaper place, worked two jobs, not have had three kids, and so on. I made my own mistakes mostly, but some were caused my forces outside my control (like my work injury - unpaid for a year, fired unjustly which I proved in court, and welfare not wanting to help me because I was on workers comp even though I was not being paid due to someone there losing my paper work, which I also proved later on in court).

There is plenty of blame to go around in these things. We should look at ourselves first and our situation, examine how we could/can do things better. Then go to the next level and examine it, and so forth. Companies, local government, state, federal, and so on. There are many problems and not one simple solution.

[camero]

36. Oh jeesh

Look at ourselves first is right. The very fact that we elect right wing scumbags who think the poor are lazy and worth paying poverty wages.

So many talking points, so little time eh?

[The Straight Story]

38. Who are the poor?

I did not say all are lazy, I said some are. I was poor and not lazy, though I did make some poor choices.

To say that some are not lazy is not accurate, some are. I can give you the names of five I know - but I am not so blind as to think ALL are.

My basic point is that there is a problem and one band aid will not fix it. Focus on one solution and we miss the others and people slip through the cracks.

People are poor for many reasons, lets understand them all and see what we can do to help. I had three kids before I was 24 and there was not way I could support them and the wife on the income I had. Had it just been me and the wife both working we would have been ok. That was my fault. But that does not mean I think people who get themselves in bad situations should not be helped (hell, we bail out big companies with billions, why not help the avg joe when he needs it?).

Help is more than money and raising taxes. It means looking into all the reasons and finding a mix of solutions. Some people can be helped. The homeless guy I know does not want help (though imho he needs mental help), my niece just wants to hit the lottery as she hates to work, as do her friends. Not sure sending them a monthly check is the answer (well, both my nieces really).

Heck, my nephew is same way. Lost his job at burger king (he is 18) for not showing up. Went back a few months later and begged to get his job back. Manager gave it to him and first day back he was almost two hours late because he over slept and did not want to go in. How do you help people who don't help themselves??

[camero]

40. You can't have poor people without rich people

Or didn't you know that? Or where all wealth comes from? The earth.

God, there are so many memes in that post I don't know where to begin.

You keep them alive no matter whether they work or not (right to life you know?). A proper education and health care means less of those who supposedly don't want to help themselves and more seeking a better life. Yes, people who are addicted are sick, which means they need health care, not a shrug-off saying they "don't want to help themselves".

[The Straight Story]

41. well

A proper education and health care means less of those who supposedly don't want to help themselves and more seeking a better life

This is all assuming they all want the same things you do in the same way.

What is a better life? Is it based on consumerism and having things or simply being able to have food and someplace to cook it? Some folks don't want the things we do, they would rather be homeless than work to get the basics.

What I am discussing here is not the percieved 'laziness' of some people, but more a thomas szasz view perhaps. We define standards and then those who do not have those same standards we label (as lazy, or mentally ill, or addicted and unable to make 'rational' decisions, etc) and then we try to 'help' them by showing them that what they are doing is 'wrong' (if you will). People like my nieces and crew may not have the same value structure we do, so how can you help someone like that?

There are many who are poor we need to help, who want our help. But some folks just don't fit into our equations, they don't see the world like we see it. Not much we can do for those folks, and not sure we should try to convert them to our values and try to make them want what we want.

For those that do want and need help, I don't care how they got into that situation, let's do all we can to assist. People make mistakes and we should help them out - after all, as I noted earlier, we help out big companies when they fall on hard times through mis-management.

[camero]

42. One thing I was taught

Never give up on ANYONE. Everyone deserves to live and deserves help. Not some. We have more than enough money to make sure everyone has food in their belly and a roof over their heads. The only thing stopping that is pure greed and those who set the "standards" we use to judge others.

Something you seem all too willing to do.

[Child_Of_Isis]

31. okay....

"My wife worked in social services in CA and was astounded at how many people just wanted to work the system and avoid actually getting jobs".

This is why I am a firm believer in good public schools for our poor children, so they can be prepared for college. So they can actually eek out a living instead of working for pennies. Never in my career have I seen an educated person who was capable of making good money, prefer to milk the system for a couple of hundred dollars.

[RareLubbockDem]

33. and from what i've learned

(my wife is a social worker who has greatly informed me) there is truly a cycle of poverty and though we hate to say it, of laziness. Punishing them, instead of helping them, will only lead to more of the same.

[The Straight Story]

37. I would agree

Punishing people only leads to more poverty imho - which is why i think we need more help on a broader base. Corporations and the wealthy have financial planners and tax consultants, lets give the same to those who need such to survive.

The cycle can end, but people have to want it to end. Now, one might say 'of course they want it to end' but does that mean they are willing to do what it takes to end it? The people I know aren't, but many are. We can't end poverty totally because some people don't want to put forth the effort to end it. One of my niece's friends wanted to move to seattle and be homeless because he hates to work, he thinks we should just give him what he needs so he can play games. Now, a few years later he has changed his tune and is working some, but he still hates the responsibility of working. He has no skills, has not sought to develop any with all the free time he has, and has no direction. What can we do for such people?

I offered to teach my niece computers and work to get her in good job making 50k to start, she does not want to. She works at udf 17 hours a week now and hates it but does not think she would like working at a desk job, she likes gas station jobs - but last one she worked at she turned down manager for more money because it would mean less time hanging out with friends. She quit it and was out of work 8 months and never went out and looked for one (when she finally had to found the udf job).

We can help some people, but they need to want to help themselves as well. Why some don't I doubt I will ever understand. Those who make mistakes while trying I want to help all I can, those who don't want to try I am not sure what help I can give them.

[nankerphelge]

14. Take examples of what they're doing...

and find examples of what Bush is doing to undercut they're efforts. I can guarantee that it won't be hard to find examples.

[Eloriel]

19. Now that's a good idea

Don't know if it will be powerful enough because, after all, "it's not the government's job to take care of people" anyway. But it is an otherwise really good idea. It's what I was trying to get at in my post: find what issues they CAN identify with.

[RareLubbockDem]

21. that IS a good idea

Any ideas? I know, it's general since you don't know them, but just generally.

[camero]

27. Dems don't devalue labor, whereas Pubs do

End of discussion. If they are anti-labor they don't help the poor, they only exploit them. Being republican does the same.

[Liberal Gramma]

32. Buy them a copy of "Nickle and Dimed"

written by a woman who took entry-level jobs at a half-dozen places and actually tried to live on her income. She concluded that it couldn't be done without either sacrificing your dignity or pooling resources with other low-level wage earners. Contrary to Republican Gospel, the poor are NOT lazy welfare queens who deserve to suffer. They are people who weren't born with the advantages your two friends take for granted.

[RareLubbockDem]

34. WOW

that's one of the books that I truly think everyone should read. But, GET THIS.. the two women I talked to this evening HAD read it. So can you understand my frustrations??

[Liberal Gramma]

39. Yes

They must be suffering from a compassion deficiency, a common ailment among Republicans, even nice ones. As long as they see the function of government as protecting us from terrorists and keeping their taxes low, they will never get that the true function of government is to create the conditions under which society can improve itself.