I love Bill Clinton, but I'm so angry with him and here's why..

[SeekingTruth]

if Bill Clinton had been able to control his urges, we would never be where we are today.

Al Gore would not have had to refuse Clinton's help in his 2000 campaign. Gore would have won, hands down. 9/11 would have still happened, but it has always been my belief that no matter what party was in the Whitehouse, the sitting President would not have fumbled the initial response to 9/11 - no matter who it was.

I also believe that the party in power would have picked up seats in both the House and Senate because of this response to 9/11.

With Bush in the White House, I believe he saw Iraq as a paper tiger that he was told and thought would be easy to defeat and a huge trump card to his re-election. I also believe Bush has/had a pathological obsession with Hussein ("He tried to kill my Dad").

During the same time frame, Bush used the Homeland Security battle in a masterful way to shore up Republican control in the House and Senate in the 2002 elections (recall Max Cleland). The Bushies used 9/11 and fear in a despicable, but political masterful way.

Then we get to the Iraq War vote - Let us be honest - many Dems went along certainly because of what happened to Max Cleland. They saw the writing on the wall.

And, now, we find ourselves in the place that we are. With Gore in the White House, there would not have been a manipulation of data, no march to war with a country not involved in 9/11, better relations with the world and ongoing dialog with Iran and South Korea.

I sincerely believe, if Gore had prevailed, we would have only been in Afghanistan and we would have been much more successful against al Queda, the Taliban and that bin Laden would not be sitting in some cave to this day. Bin Laden would be dead.

[David Dunham]

1. I fully agree. Bill should have kept his zipper shut.

[SammyWinstonJack]

21. And bush* should keep his drunken mouth shut!

Blame Clinton for what exactly? Gore won! And bush* stoled the election! nuff said!

[doc03]

73. It doesn't matter if Gore did win Bush* is the pResident like it

or not. If Clinton could have controlled himself Gore would have easily gotten the electoral votes even without Florida

[jdj]

27. What kind of stupid idiot was Blewinsky?

How stupid can you be?

Was it a set-up?

Didn't she freaking understand how partisan things were?

I don't blame Bill, all these men do this..or a great many of them,

BUT TELLING A REPUBLICAN (Tripp) THAT YOU ARE BLOWING A DEM PRESIDENT? Unless you are plant put there to purposely bring him down, it doesn't make sense at all...

[LisaL]

2. Sad, isn't it?

All this mess, and it's all because of one blue dress?
}(
But there are many other things that could be blaimed:
Such as Nader and butterfly ballot.

[camero]

3. I don't think so

They would have manufactured something else.

[autorank]

4. Watch out!

I made a cryptic reference to his 'zipper thing' in a highly positive message about Clinton helping Kerry and was harassed big time. At least I learned about the 'ignore' function. Love it! You're right but what can we do? My question is how can a populace smart enough to support Clinton at 70% after zipperi-gate fall for the * pitch. It just doesn't compute. Liked the message and I think you are absolutely right!!!!!

[wtmusic]

5. Oh come on

Blaming 2000 on Clinton is seriously deranged. Gore was stiff as a board and had no message. He practically handed the election to W.

[SeekingTruth]

10. Not to dwell on it but....

if Clinton had not made himself radioactive, Gore would not have had to use that "I'm my own man" stuff. Instead of running away from the Clinton-Gore record, he could have embraced it. Clinton would have been down in Florida and Ark and could have at least swung Ark. If Ark had went Gore, THAT would have been enough.

[jdj]

29. I long for the days (before tv and radio) when we valued intellectualism.

Jefferson, Franklin, Washington, Madison, I bet they were stiff as boards and boring too.

Back then, that was what the country wanted/needed, and we knew it. Now, we want Hulk Hogan and the Terminator. What the hell happened?

[Yupster]

38. Yeah that Ben Franklin

what a bore.

[Blue Wally]

45. Ummmmm, Franklin

was more of a philosopher/diplomat. He never held major elective office.

[NYCGirl]

62. And he had a sex life that even Bill Clinton would envy...

:evilgrin:

http://www.time.com/time/2003/franklin/bfwomen.html

[yardwork]

34. I disagree that Gore was stiff and had no message

That's the way the media spun it, just as they do everything they can to make Kerry look bad and make the mutant drug-addled psychopath chimp look good.

I blame the media. I have forgiven Clinton, but I was mad at him for a long time. On the other hand, he was an excellent president. He left the country in good shape.

[ComerPerro]

6. You are more generous than I am, but you make an intersting point

I contend, however, that under Gore or even McCain, 9/11 would have not happened. Why? Because it wouldn't have been necessary, and therefore would have been stopped.

But, I will use your argument that 9/11 would have happened anyway.

I honestly don't believe that, had 9/11 happened under Gore's watch, the country would ever forgive him. He would have been blasted by the media on September 12, we would have heard "why wasn't this stopped?" from everyone everywhere, and the FReepers would be going insane in the push for impeachment.

They would have resisted striking back at Afganistan, and probably would have used it to win an overwhleming majority in Conress. Then, President Gore would have been impeached.

Never forget that right wingers are ruthless.

[Syrinx]

7. well said

The Republicans were the true villains in the impeachment fiasco, but Clinton should have known that they would try to bring him down at any cost. It's sad that his personal sex life became a matter of "public concern", but sadder still that he played right into their hands. Gore should have put Clinton on a saltpeter regimen for those eight years.

[p0sitivevibez]

8. ????

Bill Clinton made a mistake, which was EXPLOITED by a vast right wing conspiracy to destroy one of the greatest (and you know its true) presidents of all time. I blame the people who sat on their lazy ass*s during the 2000 election and let Hitler, uh I mean Bush win. Clinton is human, humans make mistakes. Besides, I find it easier just to blame everything on Rush Limbaugh, he is a big fat idiot after all.

[no_hypocrisy]

43. Welcome to DU p0sitivebez. You're right. Several Republicans were

engaging in the same "wholesome family values" at the same time as Clinton and have been conveniently forgotten by the public: Newt Gingrich, Bob Packwood, Mr. "Youthful Indiscretion", etc. Dems never went after them with the passion of the Spanish Inquisition of the pukes.

[kestrel91316]

9. No point in crying over milk that's already been spilt...............

just move on and clean up the mess as best we can. I just sigh over it all, but I cannot find it in my heart to hate the Big Dog. He is only human.

[SeekingTruth]

12. Didn't write "hate", wrote "anger"....

I love to watch Clinton in action - he is in a class all his own...it is just like in the movie "Primary Colors"...he could have been great but pissed so much of it away (but really though, he probably wouldn't have been near as good if he hadn't of been himself....make sense?)....

[The Shadow]

11. Just A Reminder.

Al Gore did win the election in 2000!
Repeat this and repeat this often, because it is in fact the truth.

But yes, giving the repugs any type of opening seems to have a devastating effect on us.
What we need to realize is that you cannot deal in good faith with these SOBs and basically need to be firm and tell them to go "cheney" themselves.

[soothsayer]

13. Be mad at Gore. He sabotaged himself.

Mebbe be sore at Clinton for lying, tho.

But be FURIOUS at the stupid reichwingnuts and their lynch mob tactics who made that molehill into a mountain.

[SammyWinstonJack]

30. OH yeah Gore sabotaged himself

What crap! And as far as Clinton "lying" It was no ones damned business what Clinton did save for himself and his wife! And the repubs had it in for Clinton from day one! But nice try!

[SammyWinstonJack]

14. Ahh yes blame Clinton for the repubs sniffing around in his crotch!

And that works how? What crap! What Clinton *did* had nothing to do with what the repubs had planned for him from before he was elected! But hey! whatever! Don't blame Bill for bush*co stealing the election from Gore! Remember Gore won!

[AndyTiedye]

15. 9/11 = Northwoods = Reichstag Fire

9/11 DIDN'T happen on Clinton's watch.
9/11 would NOT have happened on Gore's watch.
Why did it happen with Boosh in office?
Because Boosh WANTED it to happen.
MIHOP

[politicat]

16. Miss Monica was the only bit of a much bigger witch hunt.

Remember... Gennifer Flowers, Whitewater, Paula Jones, Kathleen Wiley, Travelgate, Lincoln Bedroomgate, AspirinFactoryGate... do I need to go on?

It wasn't about a blowjob. It was about sore losers, bad politics and an agenda of personal destruction possibly based on pressure politics in 1992 (there are rumors that the Rs offered to assist Clinton into the office in 1996 if he'd lay off in 1992 and run as a sacrificial lamb and let Bush pere have four more wars.... uh, years. Don't know how true they are, but I've heard them from multiple sources within state and national level politics.) It was based on a personal hatred from Lush Rimjob to Bill Clinton (there's a story there...) Newtie had a similar problem. (I think I'm remembering this from Reich's book, Reason: Why Liberals will win the Battle for America, but don't quote me.)

If not Monica, then something. Bill Clinton's fault? When something like 2 in five marriages have incidents of infidelity, and 1 in 8 are tacitly open marriages, the whole thing was more based on the wild fantasies of the loudmouths on the neo-con side than on anything out of the ordinary.

The only thing Bill Clinton did wrong was refuse to spit in their eye on the matter. They asked snoopy questions they had no right to ask.

Pcat

[Blue Wally]

47. You summed it up.........

Gennifer Flowers, Paula Jones, Kathleen Willey, Monica Lewinsky........

All were connected with him in the chain of command........

Bill was one of those CEO tyupes that likes to go skinny-dipping in the secretarial pool.

He wasn't bopping Hollywood stars or his equals like Sen Mikulski, he was using/abusing the underlings.

If we had let him go at impeachment time (or made him walk the plank with a resignation), incumbent President Gore could have won handily in 2000.

[politicat]

60. using/abusing....

Have you ever considered that there's such a thing as consensuality?

Some women are attracted to the men they work with. (I'm not one of them, but I'm not blind to seeing it.)

And to take a cue from Moveon....

Move on! Get over it! We can't change the past so we have to live in the present and work on the now.

Pcat

[progressivebydesign]

17. I think Poppy Bush, Newt Gingrich, Rudy Giuliani, etc.. should zip it up!

Please!! What kind of fresh tripe is this??? All of those people I just named did much more extra-maritally, and their political lives are still untouched. IT'S NOT THAT CLINTON DID ANYTHING.. do you get it? He could have fucking JAYWALKED and they would have destroyed his character.. what did you think Kenneth Starr was doing with all that money? Auditioning people in Arkansas for American Idol?

Please SEE the Hunting of the President. What Clinton did was minimal, compared to what other politicians (REPUBLICANS) have done, and get away with... It's ubelievable to hear someone actually blame Clinton for everything. Just unbelievable.

Oh yeah.. and Clinton's approval rating went UP after the impeachment.. but he was dragged through hell by the hypocritical Republicans who have more scandals than a Jackie Collin's paperback!

[AndyTiedye]

18. How Can You Say That After Seeing What the Media is Doing to Kerry??

The Swift Boat liars and their accomplices in the media, built
a very effective attack on Kerry, who is a genuine war hero,
out of NOTHING BUT A BUNCH OF BALD-FACED LIES!
Meanwhile, they have derailed any discussion of the deserter's
service record.

If it hadn't been Monica, they would have invented something else.

When you own the news, you can manufacture it out of whole cloth.

[Elwood P Dowd]

19. He did other destructive acts that will

make the blue dress pale in comparison. I'm talking about the millions of jobs lost because he jumped in bed with Newt and the repukes on NAFTA, GATT, and WTO. I'm talking about the Telecommunications Bill. I'm talking about the lost power and influence of our unions.

It took a few years for the ramifications to show their ugly face, but they're showing 'em now. Clinton was a willing participant.

And tell me this; Clinton knew all about the right wing conspiracy. He knew all about the plans for a one-party repuke takeover. Why didn't he do anything about it? He knew the Florida election was a fraud, and he knew the Bush crime family was a fraud, yet he did nothing. It's almost like he was in on the damn thing.

[ParanoidPat]

20. This thread = flaim bait = waste of time

Lots to do, five weeks to do it, why would anyone waste time ARGUING this BS? :evilgrin:

Keep your eyes on the prize. :)

[SeekingTruth]

23. No, it's not "flaim bait"....it's how I feel...

but if one really wants to think of something even scarier - what if Bush is finally elected? That means he might get the chance to name three to four US Supreme Ct Justices.......

But I really think Kerry is going to be fine...there are wonderful things breaking our way.....

When people see that Kerry stands beyond the same stage as Bush, it will take way off....

[SammyWinstonJack]

28. LOL "our way?"

:eyes:

[SammyWinstonJack]

24. I agree flame bait!

what a waste of bandwith!

[jonnyblitz]

32. oh like the campaign is gonna suffer because somebody

posted this as a topic on a political discussion board on the internet. HOW SILLY. PLEASE.

[SammyWinstonJack]

33. Yes indeed

Please! And what again was the point?

[Mandate My Ass]

42. LOL This thread = mastur bate = should be done quietly alone

rather than spew it all over DU. }(

[sangh0]

64. At least s/he's not trying to call it "constructive"

like s/he tried to do the last time with it's THK "issues"

[TexasBushwhacker]

22. You're assuming that Bushco wouldn't have stolen

the election some other way. I heard that they had plans on how to deal with the election results if the tables were turned, with Bush winning the popular vote and Gore winning the electoral vote. They weren't going to stop AT ANYTHING. Gore would have had to win by a landslide for Bush to not be able to pull something.

On the bright side, all presidents whose names started with B have been one termers - Buchanan and Bush, now we'll be able to add Son of a Bush.

[Julien Sorel]

25. I agree with you to a certain extent.

But with the bad comes the good, and at his best Clinton was very, very good. We had 8 great years in this country under Clinton, for which I personally will be forever grateful. The next 8 years, and beyond, are up to us. There's nothing to be gained looking back at what might have been except fruitless anger.

[Hamlette]

26. Clinton was destroyed by the attack dogs long before Monica

if anything, Monica helped him. His favorable ratings went through the roof when they tried to impeach him they were at 70%.

It had NOTHING to do with Clinton. It is the right wing loonies who have taken over the GOP.

The parties are not the same. Remember that when you are trashing Kerry. he's not perfect but he is NOT one of them.

[donheld]

36. HEAR HEAR

The right wing set out from day one of Bill's presidency to do him in one way or another. Maybe he should have kept his zipper up, but he was in affect knackered the whole time. Especially after Newt's contract ON America:evilfrown:Please save your strengh for the current fight

[VOX]

41. Well said.

:kick:

[RummyTheDummy]

31. Yawn

You have a wonderful grasp of the obvious.

[oasis]

35. I blame Bob Dole for 9/11. He lost to Clinton in '96 thus enabling the

lust filled adulterer to miss capturing Osama. I'm sorry but I just had to nail a Republican for 9/11.

BTW, Gore won in case you missed it.

[NWHarkness]

37. Let's Attack Democrats!!

Because, hey, it's not like there's an election that we could be focusing on winning or anything.

[sr_pacifica]

39. Misplaced blame

Put it on Kenneth Starr, the sell-out, buck-chasing news media, the Republican Party, and everybody who couldn't see through the dirty tricks.

[VOX]

40. Don't blame Clinton! Lay blame where it belongs: At the feet of the RW...

and at the feet of the corporate lapdog media. The right wing was hounding Clinton the moment he took the oath of office in Jan. 1993.
It is a pity that, years later, he gave them a gift of sorts. But tell me -- was what he did really an impeachable offense? All that mock outrage, and $70 million in taxpayer dollars spent, and what did they finally nail him on? Lying about a blow job. The corporate media had a field-day with that one.

Gore **did** win, but the right wing put a stop to that.

As for 9/11 and Iraq, the PNAC signatories put ink to their "Statement of Principals" on June 3, 1997 -- so that die was cast, too.

So be angry at those deserving of it -- the right wing, and their enabling media.

[rman]

44. you are ill informed

see www.thehuntingofthepresident.com
and www.mediamatters.org

[BAPhill]

46. Clinton was still hugely popular....

Gore should have let him help...so I disagree.

[mandyky]

48. The DLC wing of our party is also partially responsible -

One of the many things I loved about Howard Dean was when he said we Dems need to stand for something and stop being GOP lite. Plus our party sat by for the past 20 years and let Rush Limpbutt and his ilk take over our airways, without even trying to come up like Air America. Reagan would never have gotten in a second term if we had started fighting back sooner.

While I blamed Clinton partially for election 2000, Gore ran a shitty campaign.

I think organization like DFA and Wellstone action will help us come up with issues for a movement and reform. Unfortunately, if Kerry can't pull this out this will be a mess by 2008.

[kayell]

49. He should have used better sense, but if it wasn't that, they would have

manufactured something else. They tried a whole series of other scandals that didn't stick, no reason to think they wouldn't have kept it up. Look what the Swift Boat Liars have done to Kerry.

[in_cog_ni_to]

50. Gore's a big boy.

Clinton was STILL high in the polls when Gore ran. He could have separated his candidacy from the vast RW conspiracy against Clinton and have him campaign for him. Gore cut off his nose to spite his face. Had he USED Clinton....we wouldn't be here. It's as simple as that. Clinton is STILL loved! Gore avoided him...he owns that mistake. IMCPO

[Bridget Burke]

51. And why do you choose to share this with us at this particular moment?

Isn't there an election coming up? Aren't you concerned with getting out the vote? With pointing out Bush's deficiencies? With telling people about Kerry & Edwards? With hoping your vote gets counted?

Clinton is no plaster saint, but there really is a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy. Gore won but would have won bigger (perhaps with a non-stealable margin) if he'd ignored his advisers. He was my first choice for 2004, but I'll gladly vote for Kerry. If Gore had been allowed to become President, 9/11 would just be another day. And the Republicans would have been working for his downfall.

[SeekingTruth]

59. My point in all this.....

one, is to get some debate going, two, to work off some frustration, and three, if Clinton had ignored his self-ish horn dog behavior, we would not be in the spot we are now....

Bush would never have been in office, we never would be in Iraq, the country would not be in the financial mess it is in, Congress would not be rightwing, but more importantly and something that continues to stay below the radar - Bush would not be stacking the courts against us....(I am amazed at how little coverage this aspect of Bush's presidency gets reported - this is major).

Yes, Gore ran a poor campaign in certain areas, but I don't think that it's fair to criticize him for running away from Clinton to avoid his scandals into comparison to how the country now treats or feels about Clinton. The American people are two things - very forgivable and very forgetful.

The point about the Repugs going after Clinton for anything - yes, that is true, if it had not been one thing, it would have been another, but if a person knows this, like Clinton did, then why the hell GIVE them the ammunition?!?!

One last thing - I have always told people that legal scholars have said Paula Jones didn't have legal action against Clinton - her action should have been against David Brock and the American Spectator - but people don't care and it's too complex for them to understand. Eventually Clinton could have beat the case after appeal after appeal.

He should have come clean from the start - I think deep down he knew he was a had lad when he made those "sleep with" comments, but thought he was good enough to beat them.

And yes, the Repugs will do anything to win - and that is one of our biggest faults - we have let them do it for years and years - they have played us like children, but finally we are learning the game (but we still have not learned to love the taste of red meat like them yet......)...

[Bridget Burke]

61. Yes, we really need "debate" (divisiveness/disruption) right now.

Thanks so much.

If you're "frustrated"--there are ways to deal with that. I really do not wish to sensibilities. Here's a hint: If you took your own problem in hand you might stop obsessing about what a grown man & woman did.

This is a very old story. Direct your anger toward Bush, his administration, and the lying media.

[sangh0]

65. One frustrated man "needs" a debate

and another runs away from them

[SeekingTruth]

69. All our unstudied miscues as dems have got us what...

a 50/50 nation...

what is amazing here is how many people are so afraid to study the weaknesses of the Dem party so we can defeat them...

It baffles me to no end how we keep getting our asses kicked in the same way because people simply do not want to admit our weaknesses.

All day and all night here people preach to the choir, they bitch and moan and insult fellow DU'ers instead of looking inward.

And to prove a point - what block of voters do we habitually do the worst with? White males. And what do white males have in common?
We are visual animals. And who controls most of the purse strings in this country? White males. So what do we Dems do? We ignore visuals. We ignore psychology and keep getting stuck in explanation, reason and complexity. And to prove this, what symbol turns on Dems? The US Constitution. What symbol turns on Repugs? The Flag.

As Dems we are so arrogant that we feel it is beneath us to really understand how to win politics. And I'm getting sick and goddamned tired of being sick that the goddamned Repugs control the House, Senate, White House and courts, because we are too thin skinned to study our faults and learn how to kick ass.

But what I'm really getting of is other DU'ers insulting other DU'ers with insulting replies.

I don't give one goddamned piece of shit if some poster has posted something for the goddamned thousandth time. If a DU'er doesnt' have a respectful answer or debate to add, then ignore the goddamned post!

[Killarney]

52. I think "what if" a lot, too.

What if Bill hadn't done it. What if Monica hadn't kept the dress. What if it hadn't gotten out. What if only a thousand of the 97,000 Nader voters in Florida had voted for Gore instead.

The "what if's" can make you crazy, but I admit that I do it, too. ;)

[johnnie]

53. Not as many people hated Clinton as the media let on

Today Bill Clinton is a well respected man around the world. The small-minded Americans let the Republican party and the right-winged media control what they thought of the blow job.
The Republican party were still so pissed off over Watergate that they went after Clinton with everything they had. That guy had no time to run the Country and do his job. He spent half of his 8 years in office defending every allegation that was thrown at him.
If you want to throw blame, throw it at the Democrats for not banding together and trying to win the 2000 election without the chad recounts. Half the friggin' party turned their backs and we ended up in this mess. Bush was going to win either way, but it would have been nice if we would have been a party instead of everyone running from the repugs. Face it, they won and they let the American people believe that a blowjob in office was the most horrific action that a President has ever done to the American people.
I truly believe that either jeb or george were put in the position to enter the White House in the election of 2000, and I don't think Gore had a chance. The problem was, they didn't cover all their bases and the Florida fiasco became an issue.

[LastDemStanding]

54. Yes but Clinton passed Welfare reform

How can one argue against such a successful action?

[onecent]

55. Republicans would have found another reason to do the same

thing to Clinton. If one way doesn't work...they figure another will.

[Bridget Burke]

56. If we had that many millions to investigate Bush....

His name would now make vultures gag.

[indepat]

57. While we are all exasperated with Clinton's foibles, a vast right-wing

conspiracy would have stopped at nothing until he was destroyed: They would have just focused more on other supposed "crimes."

[elehhhhna]

58. if...if...if.. If we don't focus now, we'll be crying "if if if" again.

Sorry if it sounds harsh, but the house is burning.

[Sparkle]

63. No comment on this asinine post.

[SeekingTruth]

70. you know, what a fine reply...

I get sick of you people who add smart ass replies to things...

[TrustingDog]

66. would Ken Starr pay so much attention to anyone's zipper....

puhleeeeeeze, lay the blame where it belongs.

[kaitykaity]

67. Oh, god, not another one of these.

Oh, gee, you'd think this was the first time anyone had
ever had these thoughts here at DU.

One of these days, I'm going to remember not to click.
I always think I'm going to find something original here,
but it's always the same old warmed over gruelly sticky
CRAP that passes for thinly veiled right-wing talking points.

GAAK.
(cat spitting up hair ball.)

[troubleinwinter]

68. I kick myself

for even acknowledging such crap.

Nonetheless, you can look at it this way, if you want: We wouldn't have butter if it weren't for the Big Bang.

[SeekingTruth]

71. I knew this kid once.....

he was walking to the school bus stop and this other kid was hiding behind a tree some distance and shooting him with an old Daisy bb gun...do you know what the one kid did? He kept walking in the same direction - he didn't run away, zig or zag or just get the hell out of there. He just kept walking and getting plugged with the the hiding kid with the bb gun.

The moral to the story - this kid knew he was being targeted, just like Clinton was, and he kept on sticking his dumb ass body out there in the open giving that guy an easy shot.

This is what Clinton did - he knew he was being hunted and what did he do? He gave them what they needed - and now, over the past several years we are paying for it....

So he better heal real fast and get out there and do what needs to be done and set aside Hillary's own ambitions...

[doc03]

72. I totally agree, Bill Clinton gave all the wing-nuts the right

to say "I told you so". Bill Clinton was the best and worst thing to ever happen to the Democratic party.