Bid to Save Tax Refunds for the Poor Is Blocked -$13B in corp tax instead

[cthrumatrix]

Bid to Save Tax Refunds for the Poor Is Blocked

By Jonathan Weisman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 23, 2004; Page A04

Congressional negotiators beat back efforts yesterday to expand and preserve tax refunds for poor families, even as they added $13 billion in corporate tax breaks to a package of middle-class tax cuts that could come to a vote in the Senate today.

snip

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43278-2004Sep22.html

[ThomCat]

1. This is Evil.

:mad: There is just no justification for this kind of corporate welfare. Our government is supposed to represent and support We The People, not We The Encorporated!

:argh:

[SammyBlue]

11. You expected anything less

This fake populism from the GOP: Compassionate conservativism, crap like that, is all smoke and mirrors.

And the media (lazy, uninterested, unwilling to perform its oversight duties) allows this facade to go unchallenged.

And the public (uneducated, even lazier, easily duped) accepts GOP populism as truth.


If these were the progressives back in the 1890s, women would still be without the right to vote, blacks would still be getting lynched for voting, we'd still be slaughtering native Americans and children would be working in meat-packing plants, falling into the vats and being made in the sausage along with the crap that was on the floor.


Sickening.

[w4rma]

13. Big media isn't lazy/uninterested. Big media is PUSHING for this.

They are very large and they are also supported by advirtisements from other very large corps. They will keep pushing and pushing for laws like this as long as mainstream media is owned by big buisnesses.

[Kanary]

2. And another thread is extolling the virtues of sales tax rather than

income tax, and saying the rebates for poor folk would take care of the inequities.

:nuke:

Geee, like this wasn't predictable, eh?

DAMMIT!!

Is this a done deal yet? (didn't get to the article.) If not, let's make those phone calls, folx!

Kanary

[PeaceForever]

3. A national sales tax can be progressive.

Plus, it would prevent the rich from simply taking lots of deductions and sending their money overseas, as they do now.

The income tax hits the middle class the hardest. A national sales tax would shift the burden upward and give the middle class incentive to save and invest.

[Kanary]

4. You're wrong on two counts.

National Sales Tax is NOT "progressive"....... by it's very definition, it's regressive.

The middleclass is NOT hit the hardest..... poor people are.

But, then, the middleclass no longer cares about anyone besides themselves.

Kanary

[Caution]

5. it cannot be progressive.

arghhh i dont know how many times I have had to explain this since the CHimp suggested it a month or two ago.

Real World Example:
A rich friend makes roughly $7 million a year. He now pays well over $1.75 million in federal taxes after all deductions from massive (and I do mean MASSIVE) charitable donations.

He spends on average about $35,000/month on goods which would be taxable under a national sales tax. Let's go nuts and say the tax rate is 50%

His total tax burden goes from $1.75 million to $210,000

or from 25% of his income to 3% of his income spent on taxes. How do you propose the federal governemt make up that other $1.5 million in tax revenue?

A national sales tax cannot work. There would simply not be enough revenue collected from it.

Just for the hell of it:

2003 service on national debt: 318.1 billions
http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdint.htm

2003 federal deficit (after using 2003 SS surplus as
offset): $ 375.3 billions
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1821&sequence=0#ta...

2003 federal outlays: $2,157.6 billions
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1821&sequence=0#ta...

2003 federal revenue from personal income tax: 793.7
billions
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1821&sequence=0#ta...

2003 federal revenue from corporate income tax: 131.8
billions
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1821&sequence=0#ta...

2003 retail and food sales: $3,756.7 billions
http://www.census.gov/mrts/www/data/html/nsal03.html

Federal sales tax rate needed to cover 2003 service on
national debt:
318.1/3,756.7 = 8.5%

Federal sales tax rate needed to cover 2003 federal
deficit:
375.3 /3,756.7 = 10.0%

Federal sales tax rate needed to cover 2003 federal
deficit and service on national debt:
(318.1 + 375.3)/3,756.7 = 18.5%

Federal sales tax rate needed to eliminate 2003
personal income tax:
793.7/3,756.7 = 21.1%

Federal sales tax rate needed to eliminate 2003
corporate income tax:
131.8/3,756.7 = 3.5%

Federal sales tax rate that would have been needed to
eliminate the 2003 federal budget deficit, if no
existing sources of revenue were abolished:
536,100/3,756,688 = 14%

Federal sales tax rate that would have been needed to
cover all 2003 federal budget outlays, assuming no
other sources of revenue: 2,157,600/3,756,688 = 57%

Now do you really think a national sales tax of 57% isn't regressive!?!?! Who pays the MASSIVELY higher percentage of their disposable income? The poor.

[PeaceProgProsp]

16. Tax evasion would become incredibly simple.

They would only tax the retail sale of the good, and not business-to-business, or the resale (consumer-to-consumer).

So, avoid taxes on, say, your yacht, by forming a corporation to buy the yacht, and buy all your furniture and art at auction houses. Then you have NO tax burden.

Oh, and when you're done with the stuff, sell it for a profit, and you have tax free gain, since they're getting rid of income tax.

[Kanary]

19. What a devious mind....... ^_^

Thank you so much for pointing out these points! No WONDER the RW wants this form of "tax"!!

I just don't think in these ways, so I wouldn't have thought of this. Thanks for posting! Please, add this to one of those danged sales tax threads!

:toast:

Kanary

[eleny]

20. Sorry, but the tax would be an up front 30% tax on purchases

I can't figure out how that would be progressive. Can you help me out with that? If someone has to pay 30% up front on all purchases, how can it not be absolutely crushing when an individual or family doesn't have that kind of cash? Even if there is some rebate later, how can that help when the cash isn't available at the time of a purchase?

I must be missing something and hope you can illustrate the details behind your position. I see the national sales tax as a horror to low income families, the elderly and the disabled. Can you even begin to imagine what will happen when folks who are just getting by have to pay enormous taxes on their medications? This example was raised by Nancy Pelosi yesterday. It gives me chills.

[Eloriel]

28. And let's not forget

Everything TAKES longer and COSTS more when you're poor.

When you're making a pittance and can barely afford ANYthing other than the barest necessities, who can afford $10 or more a month -- $120 a year! -- just for a bank account? The alternative, of course, is to get yourself to the post office or somewhere else to spend about $1 on a money order to pay your bills. Plus the transportation to get there because you probably have a choice between a place to live and your own transportation -- not both.

So cashing your payroll check (if you've even got a job) goes to those loan shark kinda stores where they charge you a hefty fee for the privilege of cashing your check.

Grocery stores charge more in low-income areas. They know they've got a captive audience.

If you're very lucky, you're working 2 or 3 jobs, and you don't have TIME to give a damn about political news on the teevee, let alone surf the net (as if you even had a computer, let alone an internet connection).

Anything you need to do, from taking care of your kids to getting medical treatment is an enormous burden in time and energy -- and money. It frankly wearies me just thinking about it.

[southlandshari]

37. Then you obviously haven't felt the impact of income OR sales tax

on the lowest income families - not personally, at least. It is worse in my state (Alabama) than just about anywhere else, but it is reprehensible in just about every state in the nation.

Are you proposing a national sales tax on a sliding scale? Because that is the ONLY way it might tip the scales towards a justifiable and sustainable policy for our national tax code.

There is absolutely no way that a flat tax, which sales tax obviously is, can ever be equitable.

[catmandu57]

6. Sales tax is the most regressive tax there is

it's evil, when one has to spend every cent to stay alive every dollar is taxed. Poor people, working people have to spend every dime there isn't any slack.
Rich piggies can choose not to spend.

[Bandit]

7. It makes you wonder why the poor don't vote.

They are the ones getting screwed the most and yet they don't bother to vote. There are one hell of a lot more poor to middle class than there are wealthy in America but the wealthy always get their way. Why is that? The Rich get richer and the Poor remain so.

[Surf Cowboy]

10. People may not be poor because of laziness,

but there is no excuse for not voting. None. That's laziness. That's apathy. And this is what you get for not letting your voice be heard. God bless them, but if you're not even willing to cast a vote, what the hell should we care?

[bread_and_roses]

24. Why should we care?

...because we don't want to see people dying in our streets? Or children abandoned because their parents can't feed them? (both common occurrences not long ago in historical terms even in the industrial west, and still happening in the world).
...because children in a civilized society should get to eat regardless of their parents' voting record? What a concept.
...because in a civilized society we make sure that the frail, the elderly, the young have basic necessities?
...because there are simply NOT ENOUGH JOBS for everyone and we have an economic system that relies on disposable labor?
...because people without health care pose a public health risk to everyone?
...because disposable income fuels much of our economy?
I'm sure I could think of more, given time.

Calling people lazy and apathetic because they don't vote in a system that has totally abandoned them is both ignorant and arrogant. Poor does not = stupid and the poor people I know are well aware that they are a sort of ballot fodder - called on every four years and left to die in the interim.

[Sugarbleus]

29. Excellent reply....

I'm a "poor folk". I vote, always have. I figure I can't bitch if I don't vote.

There are many more lower income people waking up and organizing also.

I like your logic laid out in your reply. That is my feeling as well. Sometimes people get so low, they just can't see light anymore. I'm a believer in: WE ARE OUR BROTHER'S KEEPER. What's good for one, is good for the whole... An intact society is a happy society, is a healthy society.

Besides, repressive poverty breeds contempt which leads often to crime.

[Kanary]

35. Remember one thing, Sugarbleus.....

Folks like us are basically middleclass, with middleclass values and aspirations..... we grew up with the expectation that we would do well, and that we could get where we wanted to go.

That's WHOLE lot different than growing up with hopelessness from the time you're old enough to recognize it! A whole different animal.

It's our expectations that lead us to keep hoping. That hope leads us to keep thinking we can effect a change.

IN the past, there were leaders who took the time and energy to care about people in desperate poverty. Remember the Poor People's March? Things like that gave people an immense amount of hope, and the energy to fight for their hope. That has all gone down the toilet, and the contempt that poor people face, EVEN IN THE DEM PARTY!, is guaranteed to shut people out.

We cause the problem, then blame the victims.

:crazy:

:mad:

Kanary

[Sugarbleus]

40. You are right......increasingly, I feel

hopeless too. I'm only voting to oust Bush, not because I think Kerry will meet MY needs. He will only stem the gutting, by the repubs, of any programs left that liberals fought so hard to put into place over the decades. (Hopefully =o|)

You and I have talked about this before. I've seen so many good social programs and intentions fall by the wayside. The world gets harder and meaner and tougher each day. Poor people are getting tromped on royally.

I see and know the homeless, the poor, the imprisoned, the aged poor, and the low income citizens; it's in my heart to work with and for them just as I'd like for myself. I'm not living in abject poverty, but we are not middle class by any stretch...never have been. Started out blue collar, ended up no collar.

My main concern at this point is for my adult children and their children.. I vote and agitate because I worry about their future as well as other poor people and their children's well being. For me, it's a spiritual thing that drives me to think beyond myself.

I can't be still because I know the pain of disenfranchisment. To live in a society/world where people are flying high and living large all around and my/our lives are as if in a bubble looking out, it's painful and disquieting. We see all the pretties but we can't touch them....we can never have any of it. And, we are invisible.

[Kanary]

42. Convening the No-Collar Club of DU ^_^

Love that term, Sugarbleus!

Yes, I'm terribly discouraged, and a big part of it is because of DU.... I was totally unprepared for the lack of compassion here for tose of us who are missing our collars. It has done more to depress me than just about *anything*. It realy is true that its more hurtful when it comes from those you think you can trust. I'm in that group you describe, and it's horrible to be so close to the edge at all times.

However, what makes it unbearable is the isolation it brings..... the uncomprehending glares of those you have the most in common with, and the the ignorant criticism of those you're working on a campaign with.

Here's a gross example..... one person just told me of volunteering to be a pole watcher, then being assigned to a place unreachable by public transportation. When this person told the Dem group about it, was told to -- GET THIS -- Rent A Friggin' Car!! Then they wonder why poor folk don't get involved?????? Are people at all capable anymore of thinking beyond their wn skins???

Time to wise up, Dems..... you want TONS of votes, then educate yourself about poor folk, listen to them and find out what they need, and dedicate yourself to meeting those needs, and you'll once again enjoy their millions of votes.

Quite simple, really.

Kanary

[Pithlet]

33. Why should we care?

Never mind that voting takes time off and transportation, things that poor people tend to have less of. But, I guess the poor should make do, because no one else is going to care, obviously. When someone on DU says about the poor, "Why should we care?" then you know things are pretty bad.

[southlandshari]

39. Amen!

Democratic Underground's message to the poor - "why should we care?"

This is scary. And painful.

[southlandshari]

38. trying to avoid being banned

which I certainly would be if I actually picked one of the myriad of subject titles I'd like to give my response to your post.

Because that post is about as ignorant and asinine as they come. I honestly don't want to pick a fight with you, but do you realize how offensive your words are here?

"Laziness". "Apathy". Have you EVER in your life spent time with someone living below the poverty line (beyond feeding them in a soup kitchen)?

I really want to give you the benefit of the doubt here, so I am guessing you don't know what it feels like to grow up NEVER having your voice heard, NEVER even being asked what you think.

There are a lot - millions - of "good", "hard-working" Americans that have never seen one positive impact on their lives from the changing of the guard in the White House. But there are plenty who have seen conditions worsen for those already struggling to keep their heads above water. Why in the world do we expect these people to be the ones who change the world for all of us when it hasn't done diddly for them?

So be very, very careful about who you call lazy or apathetic. There but for the grace of God go you and I....

[Kanary]

17. Please, don't judge the poor folk!

There are many complex reasons, and it's time to learn about those, rather than to judge in anger.

That gets no where.

Pleeez?

Kanary

[eleny]

21. Let me weigh in here a little

I worked in social services for about 27 years. Mostly, I visited lower income individuals and families in their homes where conversation can travel to all sorts of topics. Some individuals are very interested in voting. But many younger families are so busy keeping the family's collective nose above the water line that politics isn't always foremost on their minds. And then there's the cruel effort by political parties to keep people from voting or to get people to not bother voting. Look what happened with the felon rolls in Florida and the attempts at intimidation that go on even today in that state. Efforts to disenfranchise huge blocks in our society have been quite effective.

I always walked a tightrope since talking partisan politics could have lost me my job. So all I could do was keep my affiliation to myself if the subject arose and then encourage people to register and vote their heart. Remember this - it's our fight, however so humble, to beat back the efforts of the well organized opposition.

[Bandit]

23. That is exactly why I am a very strong advocate for Vote By Mail

Besides being so convenient, You don't have to worry about voter intimidation or finding a parking spot or standing in line or showing ID and a person can really take the time to actually analyze the ballot and study the issues so they can make an informed decision. Often when a person sees the ballot it has things on it they have not heard about and don't know how to vote. Often there are judgeships up for grabs and most people have never heard of the people since there is very little advertising about judges. If you have a week or so to study the ballot and research the people a bit you can make a much more informed decision when you cast your ballot. Vote By Mail also tends to increase Turn-out drastically if Oregon is any example.

[bread_and_roses]

25. Kanary has addressed some of the reasons

Another is that there is nothing in it for them. I don't even hear anyone TALKING to them. Both parties talk to the "middle class." I don't hear any talk of the third world conditions in our inner cities, or the abject rural poverty that be seen in Upstate NY and I am sure elsewhere in job-dead communities. It was after all a Democrat who gave us the welfare "reform" that has resulted in added hardship to so many poor (particularly mothers) and has solidified and validated poor bashing in our social services system. The poor are called on to vote every four years then left to rot and blamed for a systemic problem till the next election.

[Skinner]

8. I have to kick this

This is just a disgrace. It's a character issue.

[Kanary]

18. Thanks for the kick, Skinner! Poverty issues rarely get a fair hearing

at DU, or anywhere else in the Dem realm.

:toast: for the kind kick.....(is there such a thing as a kind kick?) :)

Is it too late to nominate this thread???

Kanary

[Kanary]

26. Thanks for putting this on the front page!

:toast:

[southlandshari]

41. Kick for Skinner

A) because he/she knows a thread of substance when he/she sees one!

AND

B) because I am so, so thankful for the venue DU provides for exchanging ideas, inspiration, et al...


Thank you, Skinner!

[Egalitariat]

9. Do you mean to tell me that if a poor taxpayer....

pays in more than he or she owes, they can't get a refund of the balance?

That's just incredible.

[bigpathpaul]

12. Rapid Resonse: New Ad Highlighting This Topic. Please Distribute.

I logged on saw this on the home page. Here's a new ad that addresses this issue, as well as two previous ones. If you think this gets the message across, please forward it. It you see any fuzzy math, please let me know.



The ad(s) above, as well as others, is/are available as free, full-size, high-resolution JPEG or PDF downloads at http://www.bigpath.net. Please forward, print, post, handout or carrier-pigeon them to as many people as you can. If you'd like to be on my email list (alerts when there's new content or changes to the site): email to [e-mail].

[Sugarbleus]

30. Great stuff!! n/t

[JDPriestly]

14. Conservative Compassion equals

being compassionate for yourself only.

[eleny]

22. Isn't that the truth and the bottom line!

There's a bumper sticker in that thought.

[jwirr]

34. Conservative Compassion

is very well defined in the book "War Against the Weak" by Edwin Black. They do not care about individuals, they are concerned about racial superiority. Thus to cut the "unfit" out of government help is to further the wellbeing of society. PURE Nazism.

[hatrack]

15. Wow, there's a switch!!

NOT.

[Disturbed]

27. Ignorant does not = stupid.

Let us not join the Right Wing in saying that people deserve what they get if they don't vote. The poor and working poor have been getting the crumbs off of the table for so long they may feel that it is hopeless. Most poiticians do not get contributions from them but from the wealthy and the Corps.

J. Edwards did talk about the poor and the working poor quite a lot in his campaign. Most Americans could wind up being poor and for sure part of the working poor if the Neo Fascist stay in power. In my view the Neo Fascists want to destroy the Middle Class and turn as many Americans into serfs as they can.

[Sugarbleus]

31. Yep...........

the Neo Fascists want to destroy the Middle Class and turn as many Americans into serfs as they can.....that's what I'm afraid of.


Let's stop them before our ruination is complete!

[southlandshari]

43. kick

for truth

[Deja Q]

32. The congresscretins also voted to give themselves raises recently too

Career politicians are self-serving scum. (the bennies they get after they leave office are ridiculous enough, but this is beyond insane.)

Replace those fucking crooks with REAL people. Like Patty Wetterling.

[Kanary]

36. I forgot about that! Good catch, HypnoToad!

Aren't you thrilled to absolute death that we have such unhypocritical representation??

:puke:

Kanary

[Cats Against Frist]

44. Regressive, Government-Engineered GOP tax policy, at its best

Shift the tax burden to the middle class. Get rid of the tax credit for the poor. Give bajillionaires tons of tax cuts.

This, my friends, is NOT the "free market." Make no mistake -- the GOP is not working toward a "free market," they are corporatists -- something altogether different. Too bad their IDIOT FUCKPOOL OF A CONSTITUENCY doesn't realize this.