Are anti-choice groups trying to stop "the Pill"?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

I haven't heard anything about this, but I assume I don't live in one of these states. This is such bullshit if it is true. If my doctor won't prescribe me pills, I'll get them from another doctor and quit that doctor all together. Has anyone had an experience with this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3652462.stm

[truthspeaker]

1. It's true. Several links on DU a couple months ago

An Eckard's in Texas is the one I remember. Also a pharmacist in Wisconsin IIRC.

[bloom]

75. I thought the previous cases dealt witih Morning-after pills

Whereas the BBC story was talking about regular birth control pills.


The weirdest thing to me is that apparently some people want more unplanned pregnancies.

I don't see how that is a good thing for anybody. :crazy:

[ElectroPrincess]

80. In one respect, it's a way to control women ...

If you're barefoot and pregnant, you can't finish your college degree (or *very* difficult) nor compete with men for high paying jobs. Many men who get "all weird" about such issues harbor this hidden agenda, i.e., keep those damn feminists in their place. :P

[Dorian Gray]

82. Well,

People who are against abortion are often against the birth control pill. It MAY act as an abortifacent.

Personally, I don't like the idea of using the pill for that reason. Which is why I use condoms when practicing birth control. Though I know that the birth control pill doesn't ALWAYS act as an abortifacent, it is a decision that I thought long and hard about. Due to my religious beliefs (which also don't allow for pre-marital sex... call me a hypocrite), I don't feel right using the birth control pill.

But, that is a decision that I make for myself, not one I expect to impose on others around me. While living in Hong Kong, also, they offered the pills over the counter. Many of my friends took it regularly. In some ways it was good, though due to lack of the need for a prescription, some of my friends weren't going to the OB/GYN as often as they should have.

[Mandate My Ass]

83. How does the pill ever act as an abortifacient

since it is impossible to affect a pregnancy in progress?

[Garbo]

128. This is how....

The pill can act as an abortifaciant by not allowing a fertilized egg to attach to the uteran wall.

[Mandate My Ass]

130. That's still contraception

The medical/legal definition of pregnancy is fertilization and implantation. If the pill interferes with implantation, it's still a contraceptive.

Fortunately for the rest of us, the anti-choicers don't get to rewrite the definition of what constitutes pregnancy to push their pro-pregnancy, pro-birth, anti-child, anti-woman agenda.

[Garbo]

148. Well, as you have probably guessed.....

.....I don't follow that standard medical establishment/legal definition. I simply beleive that life begins at a different point than the average doctor/lawyer, so tome it is an abortifaciant.

One question, what do you mean when you say that the opposing agenda is "anti-child"? Just curious.

[Mandate My Ass]

151. well if you don't follow the medical/legal definition

as is your right and privelege, then don't use medical legal terms, such as "abortifacient" when you are obviously applying an entirely new and non-accepted, inaccurate definition of the word.

BCP is not and never has been an abortifacient. You may believe it is, but you'd be making a very untrue statement by claiming it is without the qualifier that you've subjectively changed the very definition of the word pregnancy.

It may seem simple and perfectly clear to you what you mean when you say "abortifacient," but it is using language incorrectly to promote an agenda.

Anti-child? It is the height of arrogance to suggest you're pro-child when you're forcing a pregnant woman to bring a pregnancy she never wanted to term and then washing your hands of them both once the child is born. Pro-birth-definitely. Pro child? Not even close.

[Garbo]

153. I understand your point, but.....

....I guess I should have said earlier that part of the reason I don't follow the "medical/legal" definition is (in addition to my personal abhorence of abortion) that I beleive that definition to be written by those with their own agenda. Meaning for example, doctors seeing nothing wrong with abortion and lawyers who are involved in defending it or profiting somehow from it.

Anti-child? It seems to me that your anti-child definition is anti-child in itself. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that it is anti-child to force the mother to keep a baby she does not want. So, it is pro-child to abort it, and give the mother what she wants? Am I following you correctly?


Edit: fixed spelling error.

[Mandate My Ass]

154. Doctors have an agenda? Really?

and lawyers too? Who else? I can't imagine a more diverse group in terms of political affiliation, religion, ethnicity etc. etc. Lawyers profit from abortion? Which ones? Got a link? Didn't think so. Doctors and lawyers would profit much more from live births. Ever gotten a bill for one? And then there's adoption, lots of money in that.

If you have a problem with the world-accepted definition of pregnancy, start a movement to change it. The anti-choice movement has already started.

Unlike anti-choicers such as yourself, I don't make a claim to be anything but pro-choice. I don't abhor abortion although I wish they weren't necessary but they most assuredly are. I'm not into acting pious and holier-than-thou by saying one entity is more valuable than any other. Oh, and by the way, no woman has ever aborted a child, she has aborted a zygote, an embryo or a fetus. But I suppose you have your alternative definitions for those terms too.

[Garbo]

155. I agree with you on one point....

...and that is lawyers and doctors are indeed a diverse group. Profiting doctors? All those that perform abortions. You need a link? go to any abortion providers website. Lawyers? All those with the names in the papers gleaning the PR benefits of high profile abortion defense suits.

Correction, I agree with you on more than one thing. There IS lots of money in childbirth and adoption.

When exactly did I make a claim to be anything? I make no secret about the fact that I am anti-abortion, or as you have painted me, "anti-choice." When EXACTLY did I make a claim to be something else?

And as to your last point. when is the last time you saw/heard a pregnant woman talking about the fetus inside her?

[Mandate My Ass]

156. My best friend's sister

always called her fetus, her fetus. She sometimes even called it Cletus the Fetus.

What voluntarily pregnant women call the contents of their uterus is hardly a support for propping up weak, misogynistic, anti-choice positions.

[Garbo]

158. Oh well.....

....I guess you are not going to answer my question, but I will say this. If anyone is being holier-than-thou, it is you. You have called my points, "weak, misogynistic, anti-choice positions." when I have not donw the same. You act as the self-appointed abortion-position police, with no attempt to hide your contempt for me or my positions.

[Mandate My Ass]

159. Boo-hoo. You haven't answered any of mine either

I asked several times and was told to go "google."

And I only have contempt for the attitudes of certain men who believe that they should have veto power in women's reproductive choices.

If that's not you, then we have no problem with each other. I never singled anyone out so you're inferring a lot more from my posts than what's actually contained in them. All bettter now? M'kay?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

86. Exactly,everyone should have the right to control her body as she sees fit

I don't care what anyone else wants to do. I don't want to change other people's opinions about what they want to do or believe in. But I do care when people try to force their beliefs on me. Pharmacists not filling prescriptions is forcing beliefs. Whether they themselves choose to use the pill does not concern me.

[mmonk]

2. yes

heard it on NPR this morning.

[kayell]

3. Heres one article on it

http://www.prevention.com/cda/feature2002/0,2479,s1-7342,00.html

In April, Julee Lacey, 33, a Fort Worth, TX, mother of two, went to her local CVS drugstore for a last-minute Pill refill. She had been getting her prescription filled there for a year, so she was astonished when the pharmacist told her, "I personally don't believe in birth control and therefore I'm not going to fill your prescription." Lacey, an elementary school teacher, was shocked. "The pharmacist had no idea why I was even taking the Pill. I might have needed it for a medical condition."

Melissa Kelley, 35, was just as stunned when her gynecologist told her she would not renew her prescription for birth control pills last fall.

"She told me she couldn't in good faith prescribe the Pill anymore," says Kelley, who lives with her husband and son in Allentown, PA. Then the gynecologist told Kelley she wouldn't be able to get a new prescription from her family doctor, either. "She said my primary care physician was the one who helped her make the decision."

Lacey's pharmacist and Kelley's doctors are among hundreds, perhaps thousands, of physicians and pharmacists who now adhere to a controversial belief that birth control pills and other forms of hormonal contraception--including the skin patch, the vaginal ring, and progesterone injections--cause tens of thousands of "silent" abortions every year. Consequently, they are refusing to prescribe or dispense them.

MORE

-------------------------------
And more articles

http://www.borderlandnews.com/stories/borderland/20040729-148612.shtml

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040808/news_1n8pill.html

If you google pharmacists refusing birth control you will find more than you want to know.

If you want take a walk on the dark side (camoflaged with cute baby pics), here is the website for Pharmacists For Life International (Don't say I didn't warn you)
http://www.pfli.org/
--------------------------------

Welcome to the new Republic of Gideon

[DemBones DemBones]

14. Everyone knows that "birth control pills" are prescribed

for purposes other than birth control. The pharmacist would have been more accurate to say "I am opposed to any use of this drug since it causes abortions." It isn't about the patient's intent, it's about the drug's effect.

As I say later in this thread, if society allows conscientious objection to war, it should also allow conscientious objection to abortion.

[fudge stripe cookays]

19. Anyone with a "conscientious objection" to abortion

should not hold a position where they are called upon to dispense or prescribe The Pill. Period.

These people are not our keepers.

They're druggists and doctors. If they have a problem with doing something legal and necessary for women's health and psychological well-being they need to find a different career or a different speciality.

FSC

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

39. Isn't it the people trying to impose their brand of morals who are playing

God?

[Mandate My Ass]

44. These pharmacists are playing god

nobody else is.

They are the ones who believe they can force conception on women who have obviously chosen not to get pregnant.

That is playing god, and it's not a very benevolent god either.

[fudge stripe cookays]

48. Oooh! Snappy comeback!

Because I want to make someone in a professional position responsible for their actions? The actions that adversely impact the lives of women everywhere!?

This issue is the one that made me a Democrat. Ever seen photos of women who died during botched abortions? There for the grace of God go I. I never want women going through that again. You obviously do.

I'm not God; I'm a woman who is sick of the bullshit we have to go through to take control of our own lives.

[phylny]

99. I just had a similar conversation

with my 77-year-old father. We were talking about "one-issue" voters who vote ONLY on the abortion issue or ONLY on the gay marriage issue. I said that I was personally against abortion for myself, but that I would NEVER want to see it outlawed. My dad, a devout Catholic, surprisingly agreed.

[flvegan]

52. We have a pharmacy here in town

That has a big sign below the store sign that says, "Pray to end abortion"

No kidding. Of course, we also have a "Choose Life" specialty license plate.

[Iris]

55. It's obvious it's not abortion they object to,

it's the idea of women having control over their own destinies which hinges on when and IF to have children.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

62. Yep! Strong women terrify them.

Look at how they chose to portray the Bush twins, Laura, Barbara, etc. Silent types who when they do speak out have absolutely nothing in their vacuous little heads.

[Iris]

69. Yeah, and they hardly let the elder Mrs. Bush speak at all!

[Mandate My Ass]

22. The birth control pill is *NOT* an abortifacient

THe medical definition of pregnancy is fertilization and implantation. Substituting opinions for facts is not a valid argument or justification for making life-altering decisions for other people.

I don't care what these people erroneously and subjectively want to call an abortion. The pill does not cause one.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mandate My Ass]

49. No, I'm a goddess

Learn about medicine and legal and medical definitions of things and maybe you can aspire to be divine like me. ;)

[ThomCat]

53. Nonsequiter?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemBones DemBones]

98. See my post much later in the thread

for more of my thoughts on these issues, if you're interested.

I am not interested in judging other people but in judging actions. It is possible to discuss whether an action is morally right or wrong in itself. Stealing is wrong, for example. But most people can think of situations where stealing might be justified.
(That doesn't mean I subscribe wholeheartedly to situational ethics, though, since that can degenerate into having no moral absolutes.)

I try to be respectful of others, no matter how much I may disagree, and I tire of people not respecting other views.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pithlet]

112. What is your problem?

Heaven forbid anyone express an opinion regarding such an important issue :eyes:

[Garbo]

129. I consider it one....

....as it inhibits a fertilized egg from attached to the uteran wall, but thats me.

[Mandate My Ass]

131. What you are considering is your

own subjective and erroneous definition of what constitutes a pregnancy. A fertilized egg is only half of the equation.

[Garbo]

133. Simple, really.......

....I consider fertilization the beginning of life. That's all.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

136. How about those freezers full of "life" then from invitro?

[Garbo]

137. Well, for the record....

....I actually think thats wrong as well.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

138. Well, then you've got a bone to pick with most of these "pro-lifers" too

Proving once again that your opinion means nothing but opinion to me and I don't want YOUR views imposed on my body. I would think that lots of those same "pro-lifers" that love babies so much would vehemently fight to keep their invitro rights.

[Garbo]

149. Who said anything about imposing my views on your body?

I never did, and to me the makes no difference, as it is another life's body I am talking about.

Why should my opinion mean anything more to you than opinion, whatever that means? Are you suggesting that your opinion should mean more to me than mine does to you?

[Iris]

146. I'm pro-choice and I think it's wrong.

Pure vanity, if you ask me.

[kayell]

66. Conscientious objection to abortion would involve not having or

performing one, just as concientious objection to war involves not participating in one.

If you are a concientious objector to war, you don't take a job as a soldier, or work at the Pentagon or in a munitions plant. If you take such a job and then refuse because of your beliefs to fulfill your job, you would rightly be fired. And people might rightly think you were an idiot to take a job so out of line with your personal beliefs. A person who has a change in their beliefs, should logically find something to do more in line with their beliefs.

If you are a concientious objection to abortion (or in this case to birth control) you certainly should not take a job as a pharmacist. If you do, and then don't perform your job, you should be fired if you don't have the common sense to find something more appropriate to do.

[gollygee]

77. There is conscientious objection to abortion

Conscientious objection to war involves leaving the military. If a soldier doesn't want to fight in a war, he/she stops being a soldier.

If phramacists dosn't want to be involved with the distribution of birth control pills, they can stop being pharmacists.

[phylny]

92. I say that

pharmacists who are conscientious objectors and will not fill a prescription for birth control pills are morally obligated to refuse to fill prescriptions for Viagra and other drugs developed to help maintain erections.

I say if God intended for that man to have an erection, he would be able to do it without medical intervention!!!!

:evilgrin:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

95. Excellent post!

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

36. How can you be against

birth control pills and also call yourself a gynecologist? These people are making medical decisions based on their personal/religious beliefs, rather than science. These people need to be forced out of the field. They are going to lose all their business anyhow, because no woman is going to see them if they refuse to prescribe birth control pills.

[havocmom]

4. Wasn't there legislation to protect pharmacists who refuse to fill

prescriptions for the pill? I know many females who take it for certain conditions besides avoiding pregnancy. If the person behind the counter failed to fill a script for me, I think I might look for a lawyer willing to make a point by filing a complaint that the pharmacists was practicing medicine without a license.

What happens if a house is on fire and firemen refuse to put it out because of some ideological premise?

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

59. Most women do use the Pill to avoid getting pregnant

(myself included), and I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. A lot more people would be on welfare if women didn't use the pill to prevent pregnancy.

Has anyone seen Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life"? I think the scene with the large Catholic family singing "Every sperm is sacred" says it all. They also showed an example of a Protestant opinion on the subject too. See the movie if you want to know what I am talking about.

[havocmom]

68. Yes, but point being, if someone has a medical condition which is being

treated by a physician and the pharmacists refuses to fill the script, that patient would not be getting adequate care because a pharmacist decided and MD was wrong and preventing treatment. That person would be practicing medicine without license and I would go after them for such.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

81. The pharmacist should get in trouble

for denying the Pill to any woman, regardless of the reason why the Pill was prescribed. Preventing pregnancy is just as important as regulating menstrual cycles or treating menopause or whatever other reason women use the pill. In all cases, I feel that the pharmacist is overriding the Doctor's authority to prescribe medications based on their own personal beliefs. Pharmacists should not be interfering in this way. That's my point.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. The "pro-lifers" view pregnancy as punishment for sin.

The whole "pro-life" movement is a lie. If they really wanted to minimize abortions, they would be screaming for more access to birth control and more sex-education.

They aren't "pro-life", they're pro-pregnancy.

[JHB]

7. Some actually believe the public line, that life begins at conception...

...and by preventing implantation, the pill is still the deliberate ending of a human life, but it's the people that bandera describes who have the real punitive attitude that are the driving force behind them.

[flvegan]

74. Every sperm is special, every sperm is great

and if a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

6. This is such utter crap!

Fuck them, I'll get my pills from Mexico. Cheaper anyway. I really am so pissed. I want to say I HATE those uber religous types.

[kayell]

79. I expect that if they fundies get their way, one day taking BC at all

will be illegal in this country. Remember that until very recently it was illegal in Ireland.

Honestly, I really think these people want to turn the US into the Republic of Gideon from The Handmaids Tale.

[Nobody]

143. In Gideon, it was also illegal to abstain

especially if you were a fertile young woman. A handmaid was never allowed to say no to sex with the man of the house.

[Iris]

147. Nice. Sounds like Romania in the 80's/90s. n/t

[aeolian]

8. reminds me of a bumper sticker

"Republicans Hate Sex and Love War"


So true, so true.

[ThomCat]

56. And yet they claim to own Christianity.

:wtf:

[DemBones DemBones]

9. Do you believe in conscientious objection to war?

I believe most of us do.

In the same way, those who have a conscientious objection to abortion should not be forced to participate in performing abortions.

Furthermore, physicians and pharmacists who are morally opposed to artificial birth control should not be forced to prescribe or provide it.

Birth control is legal. Abortion is legal. Those who want birth control and/or abortions can patronize doctors and druggists who will provide them. Everybody wins.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

11. Ummm, no, not the same thing

Conscientious objectors can decide not to go to war themselves. Good for them. They cannot stop others from going to war. A person who doesn't believe that the pill is right should not take the pill. But don't they dare try to stop me from taking it. There is one pharmacy in this area. I am not about to be put 30 miles out of my way because someone whose job it is to make sure I get the medication I NEED decides they have some moral objection to it.

[Mandate My Ass]

13. Bingo!!

You beat me to it.

If imposing your personal morality on others is in the way of you doing your job, then get out of that line of work. The arrogance.

[DemBones DemBones]

23. Conscientious objectors to war do "inconvenience" others,

just as a pharmacist refusing to provide certain medications inconveniences those who want the medications. But you're focusing only on what you want and your rights and not the rights of others, which is natural -- we all want what we want. Stop a minute and look at how this fits in with other issues involving individual rights.

If pharmacists are forced to provide drugs they have a conscientious objection to, then nurses could be forced to assist in abortions and physicians could be forced to perform abortions. In such a society, physicians could also be forced to perform executions and euthanasisa, and jurors could be forced to serve on death penalty cases. Do you think that society would be a good one?

[fudge stripe cookays]

31. This argument is so full of ****

I don't even know where to start.

This is why people do not become pharmacists if they have a problem with any part of their agenda to dispense drugs.

No one is forcing anyone to take part in abortions. And no one will. It is a matter of choice, unlike completely taking away womens' pills.

[Mandate My Ass]

34. pointing out the obvious doesn't work here

Although the pharmacist is forcing his pseudo morality (and a life-altering decision) on an unwitting patient obtaining a perfectly legal and safe medication, the poster throws a red herring out there about nurses being forced to assist in abortions.

Clue phone ringing, RRrrrrrrrrrrrrrring. That will never happen.

[fudge stripe cookays]

40. True, Mon.

It's amazing the way DemB shows up on every choice thread ALWAYS playing devil's advocate. Wonder why that is....

Hmmmmm.......

[Mandate My Ass]

47. Oh, I'd welcome a devil's advocate

with something substantial to offer, but not this same happy crappy that gets spewed on every thread.

Oh the poor pharmacists, they might lose some sleep if every woman who is out there getting laid tonight doesn't get pregnant against her will. :eyes:

[ThomCat]

64. lol. Thats a very good way to framing it.

Those poor pharmacists who have to do a job they may not like.

As if we all don't have jobs that are sometimes morally objectionable. I work as a corporate management consultant. My clients are huge ad agencies here in NYC. I would love to refuse to help perpetuate a lot of the ad campaigns, PR campaigns and marketing plans that I find objectionable. But I can't.

Unfortunately, we are all given only one choice. Do your job or find another one. Pharmacists are no different.

However, if all these people who desperately want to protect poor little pharmacists will frame their protections so that we are all protected from doing morally objectionable work then I'll seriously take a look at what they propose and reconsider my opinions.

Let's see if they still want to protect the poor little pharmacists if it means protecting all of us.

[Mandate My Ass]

73. You're fairly new here. Welcome to the abortion flame wars

They happen all the time here. Glad to have you aboard.

The comment in your profile made me LOL. :toast:

[ThomCat]

78. I've been here under another name for years.

I'm just breaking in a new one. But thank you for the welcome. It's one of the really cool things about people here at DU. :)

I'm glad you like the profile. Do you think I'm a freeper's idea of pure hell?

Nah. I'm not a black lesbian. If I could put that in my profile then I'd really be their idea of pure hell.

Oh well... We are who we are. :)

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

90. Excellent point!

Well said.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

33. I think you've got it backwards

I think it is the people who are refusing to comply with the law that are thinking only about what THEY want. Explain who conscientious objectors do inconvenience to others? If they do, it is a separate issue than their choosing to not go to war. Protesters have the right to protest but not the right to stop someone from going through with their action.

A juror forced to serve on a death penalty case doesn't have to vote for the death penalty. And if you are a nurse or doctor you realize that your job is to do the best for the patient. If the patient wants an abortion, then you better do what the patient wants.

[gollygee]

50. So if a Christian Scientist was a pharmacist, he/she wouldn't have to

dispense any drugs at all?

[noiretextatique]

84. ahem...what about those who use the pill for other conditions

e.g., not birth control related?

[aeolian]

16. by that logic

one of the social darwinists from the early 20th centry could have refused to provide any and all medication: if you're too weak to survive without medicine, then you shouldn't be alive anyway.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

18. Exactly

Aren't there Christians who believe that any sort of effort to extend life is "playing God"? Where does it end?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Conscientious objectors don't join the military.

People who don't want to dispense legal drugs shouldn't become pharmacists.

[DemBones DemBones]

35. Sometimes people join the military for reasons having

nothing to do with war, later become conscientious objectors and seek a discharge or a non-combat assignment. Should they be denied that?

Should a practicing pharmacist who comes to believe that prescribing certain drugs violates his/her conscience be forced to prescribe those drugs? Forced to leave the profession?

Should a person be prevented from becoming a physician or pharmacist because s/he has a moral objection to capital punishment? euthanasia? If not, why can't someone with a moral objection to abortion and/or birth control become a physician or pharmacist?

[Mandate My Ass]

41. Should a person be prevented

from obtaining a legally prescribed, safe, non-abortifacient medication because somebody has invented an alternative definition for pregnancy in his own warped little brain and wants to force an unwitting woman to conceive against her will?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

42. Exactly, a conscientious objector who BECOMES one in military, GETS OUT

Don't become a gynecologist if you disagree with the fundemental right of women to choose what to do with their own bodies.

[fudge stripe cookays]

57. Because it will interfere with their abililty

to perform what is expected of them in their jobs. You don't get to pick and choose your duties.

There are other specialties besides OB/GYN. If you don't like those aspects, become a freaking Ear, Nose and Throat doctor.

FSC

[gollygee]

63. Ok. I have an IUD

let's say I go to the emergency room. Should a doctor be able to refuse to treat me because I have an IUD?

What if I have an ectopic pregnancy? Some people are opposed to abortion even in that case. Should an emergency doctor who is opposed to aborting in the case of an ectopic pregnancy be able to refuse me treatment?

If people are in the position where it is their job to perform a service, then they need to perform that service. IF they aren't willing to perform that service, they need to get a new job.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

85. Anybody who thinks that the military isn't in the killing business

and joins for "reasons having nothing to do with war" is sadly ignorant and in need of remedial thinking. Also, people who join the military and later object to war usually get out of the military.

Your analogies don't hold water. Pharmacists don't prescribe drugs, they provide them for people with prescriptions. Should those with a moral objection to air pollution work for GM and then refuse to work? Should a postal worker who objects to pornography on moral grounds refuse to deliver it?

If a doctor, or pharmacist, wants to make a stand on moral grounds against abortion, fine. If he chooses to deprive citizens of their legal rights on those moral grounds, then he should be willing to suffer the consequences. Just as some people who broke laws during the civil rights movement went willingly to jail, and some people refused to submit to the draft as a protest against the Vietnam war, but not war in general, chose to go to prison.

[Pithlet]

113. Yes

Those who have an objection to war should not join an establishment that is there primarily to defend the country (i.e. war). If they do, they have to understand they put themselves at risk of going to war.

If a person does not want to dispense birth control, that person should not become a pharmacist.

[kayell]

115. A practicing pharmacist who comes to believe that prescribing

certain drugs violates his/her conscience should immediately seek a discharge or non-combant assigment. They should either find another job or perhaps, see if they can work behind the soda fountain. (unless of course, they have a moral objection to sugary treats rotting teeth, in which case they need to move on.)

You pretend to make comparisons to bolster your points, yet they are not at all equivelent.

For instance the comparison to becoming a physician or pharmicist if one objects to capital punishment is completely spurious since only an extremely limited number of physicians or pharmacists participate in such activities.

The reasonable statement would be that one should not become a physician assigned in a prison to perform lethal injections if one objects to capital punishment. Can you see the difference?

Similarly, one should not become an abortion provider if one objects to abortion. One should not become a gynecologist if one objects to birth control, although certain other fields of medicine such as gerontology that are not involved with reproductive health might be appropriate.

One should not attempt to make logical arguements if one is morally opposed to thinking.

[fudge stripe cookays]

21. Not if these women who need these services live

in the boonies somewhere, and the only place to obtain The Pill is the only drug store around for miles.

No, not everybody wins. Certainly not rural women.

[DemBones DemBones]

26. There are mail order pharmacies. nt

[SemiCharmedQuark]

28. And what if the postman decides he has a moral obligation to not deliver

devices he/she considers to be pro-choice?

[fudge stripe cookays]

32. Until the Republicans begin clamping down on

drugs they object to being sold through the mail. Where does this end?

[Iris]

76. That's not a safe alternative.

When I got on the pill, I had my blood pressure screened by my doctor periodically for a few months after they kicked in. I think this is common practice.

Sure, you can still get your blood pressure checked, but are you really going to trust the advice given by the very doctor who refuses to prescribe the pill to you in the first place?

[phylny]

102. I utterly, absolutely disagree.

If you are a "conscientious" objector AND a pharmacist, go work in a Catholic Hospital in the pharmacy department where you won't have to dispense birth control pills. A patient's right to have the *legal* prescription filled supercedes the "rights" of a pharmacist who obviously got into the wrong business if their beliefs override their professional responsibility. Any drug store who employs such a person should be certain to employ ANOTHER pharmacist who will mind their own business.

Pharmacists have no right to be gatekeepers between patients and doctors, and it is NONE OF ANYONE'S BUSINESS why a woman is being prescribed a pill. For all the pharmacist knows, the woman in question may have another medical condition that necessitate the need for a birth control pill.

[timefordrinking.com]

10. Breeders

The irony is, of course, that pro-lifers shouldn't be allowed to breed in the first place.

[aeolian]

20. roflmao! n/t

[Dem Agog]

12. I know a woman who foresaw this...

I know a woman who, I kid you not, scheduled her tubal ligation the week after * was elected. Her reasoning was that she didn't want kids and she figured that things would go just like this... Now she says she's just waiting for Roe v. Wade to be overturned, which she's convinced will happen if * is elected to a 2nd term and is allowed to appoint any justices to the SC.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

24. Bush being pulled between money and "morals"

I think Ellie has a great point, Bush's morals are as fake as his honorable discharge. When put to the test, I doubt it will go through.

[fudge stripe cookays]

25. I'm consdering this myself.

reprehensor and I have chosen not to have children, and been snipped accordingly.

What happens if I'm raped? If Bush gets his way, I would be forced to go through a pregnancy that would most likely turn me into a blithering psychological hunk of Jell-O, and do severe damage to my marriage if I was forced to give birth to a rapist's baby.

You know things are bad if women are even having to think about this type of stuff.
FSC

[Dem Agog]

30. I gotta say...

Part of me thinks her reaction was extreme. Most of me realizes though that it's what she wanted and *'s theft of power was just the catalyst that made her go through with it. I say good for her!

[RebelYell]

27. I had to go to a Planned Parenthood doctor for my tubal

This was in 1981.

My other gyno was Catholic, practicing at a Catholic hospital and refused to do it because I was single, 25, without children and not Catholic. He actually asked my religion. I never went back to him. No offense meant to Catholics here. I respect your right to practice your religion. I just chose the wrong gyno.

[Dem Agog]

29. I had a bad gyno experience 3 or 4 yrs ago

Went to a female gynecologist, a new one. Figured she'd be okay. She spent the entire visit lecturing me that I should stop taking Zyrtec (for allergies) because it is not approved for pregnant women. I kept reminding her I was there to get an Rx for the PILL so I wouldn't GET pregnant!

She wouldn't stop harping about the f'ing Zyrtec but at least she wrote me the Rx. Never went back to her.

[Iris]

46. Do you remember the Supreme Court case where all women of childbearing age

were banned from certain jobs (and, coincidentally, the higher paying jobs) in a battery plant that put a fetus at risk from exposure to lead?

[ThomCat]

103. I used to think that it was far fetched

when people brought up The Handmaid's Tale as an indication of where we are heading. I don't anymore. There really is a possibility of us heading towards some of that kind of extremism.

The people who have always mentioned The Handmaid's Tale simple saw it before I did. Now I see it too.

[kayell]

117. I thought you were going to say her name was Margeret Atwood.

[Scout]

124. sounds like me!

mine wasn't that soon after the election, but I am certainly glad I had it done.

[ellie]

15. People should forget about

suing. They should write the drug companies and demand that they have access to BC pills. I have a hard time believing the pharmaceutical companies will allow repukes to cut off a very lucrative moneymaker for them. Capitalism trumps Christianity every time.

[JitterbugPerfume]

60. and if this becomes wide spread

women will revolt WE will not stand for this tryanny against our bodies


no way

[Iris]

43. Intersting that you'd never heard anything about this. I'll bet

you are not alone and that many unmarried, 20-something women who happen to be on the Pill and ALSO happen to be one of the, if not THE, largest nonvoting groups in our country.

Half of me is disgusted, dismayed, and feeling completely hopeless. The other half is glad this is finally coming home to roost because people's complacency just makes me sick.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

45. Yeah, I didn't believe it at first.

I bet a lot of women, even anti-choice as far as abortion would be really interested to know that their right to avoid becoming pregnant and having those abortions they hate so much is on the line.

[Iris]

51. This information has been published over and over by

Planned Parenthood and NARAL for years now.

I wonder why they don't buy prime time advertising and list the actual names of the prescriptions during realty tv shows to get this info out?

This article made it sound like most pills prevent ovulation, but the lower dose pills introduced a decade or so ago probably do not prevent ovulation and function as a pharmaceutical IUD.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

58. I live in a pretty conservative area

They publish only conservative stuff. They successfully closed down the Planned Parenthood here (I was surprised it existed at all).

[Iris]

71. I'm on mailing lists from the hq for PP and NARAL

That's how I get the information, but, still, there must be some way they can get this info. out.

I can't believe they closed the Planned Parenthood down in your area. Things are just getting scarier and scarier.


edit - NMAC? When bill-paying and political curiousity collide!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

109. They even infiltrate the planned parenthood.

First time I called for BCP info, I got told "Well you should know that any method is not 100% effective except abstinence and that the pill is significantly overrated" I hung up and called back later. I guess they fired that person.

[Iris]

111. worked for my mom for 10 years running

And when she wanted to get pregnant, she got off and conceived the very next month.

[Iris]

114. actually, to be fair,

I do know at least one person who got pregnant while on the pill. I think it is the responsible thing to do to make sure people understand risks, but the alternative - if you don't take the pill, you have an 80% (or more!) chance of becoming pregnanct with in a year would far outweight the 1-10% failure rates of other bc methods!

(It's sort of like the "if you have a baby when you are over 35 - there is a less than 1% chance the child will have a genetic abnormality - BUT no one says you have a 99+% chance of delivering a perfectly health child!)

It's what is left out that makes the difference.

[left is right]

152. Me. I got pregnant on the pill

Had my first baby, went on the pill took it faithfully for 5 months and discovered I was three months pregnant. This now adult child is bi-polar and has other mental illnesses that keep her from functioning adequately in the real-world. Related to being pregnant on the pill? Who knows!

[fudge stripe cookays]

61. This is why I've been doing so much

voter regsitration among young, apathetic women.

Do us all a favor-- buy a couple extra copies of "The War on Choice" by Gloria Feldt and pass them out to young women that you know.

It concentrates MUCH on this very issue.

FSC

[SemiCharmedQuark]

65. Thanks for the suggestion, I intend to bring this up with some non-voters

I think I keep fairly descent tabs of what goes on in the news, and I know I keep much much MUCH better track of what goes on than most people my age. I didn't know about this! If not for this article, probably wouldn't have heard about it until I went to the pharmacy.

[fudge stripe cookays]

67. You're welcome!

It's such a great book. a HUGE wellspring of information for women needing the straight facts about what's on the agenda now.

I wouldn't be without a copy. I quote parts of it often. You can get cheap copies on Amazon for like $6.
FSC

[SiouxJ]

54. Send these articles to your apathetic friends

who are on BC. I just did. You might want to highlight some of the key paragraphs. Point out that with the Republicans in charge of all branches of government, these things are going to continue to come up and our right to BC is at stake. This hits close to home so it might wake up some people who haven't registered to vote or who think both parties are the same. Point out how Republicans are continuing to chip away at our freedoms.

[flvegan]

72. The future lawsuit?

Primary care physician doesn't believe in the pill. Patient can't get another PCP for whatever reason. No OB/GYN she calls (while footing the bill as her HMO won't cover outside the network) will touch her without insurance. Meantime, she gets pregnant. She and hubby hire lawyer. Sues insurance company, PCP and OB/GYN for fees and costs pertaining to child rearing, including big house, bigger SUV, plastic surgery. Gets on Dateline, cries. Drags whole anti-abortion issue into court. Pro-life and Pro-choice protesters clash on the streets in front of the courthouse. Tempers flare...total anarchy!

I know, I know. They could abstain, use a condom, etc, but that's not as much tv-movie of the week material.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

88. Lots of guys out there hate condoms,

my husband included. Not too many men are interested in abstaining from sex either, especially if they are married. I actually think it is reasonable to expect this situation to arise if in the future even more doctors and pharmacists prevent women from getting the Pill.

[flvegan]

96. Understood, myself included...

I was simply pointing out the defenses to this lawsuit, alternatives, etc to this scenario.

[Iris]

134. Pro-choice forces ought to create a commercial

to be aired during football games and realty tv shows that lists the actual pill prescriptions that are considered "abortificants".

[noiretextatique]

87. idiot america has way too much power in this country

damn moralists need to mind their own damn business!!!! speaking of which, women should reward these doctors and pharmacists by taking their business elsewhere.

[DemBones DemBones]

89. It's amazing how many DUers want to force

people to do something against their conscience, and sad that they see nothing wrong with doing so.

You are complaining about "them" and saying they are forcing their beliefs on you but you want to do the same to them and can't even see it.

:shrug:

I came to my belief that abortion is killing, and therefore should be done very rarely, after long years of trying to reconcile support for killing unborn humans with opposition to killing in war and opposition to killing by capital punishment. If you remember the sixties and seventies, we on the left became very concerned with the rights of others and very opposed to the war then going on in Southeast Asia and to capital punishment. Suddenly, around 1970, we were all being exhorted to believe that legalized abortion would solve all the world's problems and anyone voicing qualms about killing babies was told they're not really babies, not alive, not human, not worth thinking about, and if you cared about women, you had to support abortion. Everyone has rights, except the unborn was the rhetoric. I think we were wrong to go along with that rhetoric and that we literally threw the babies out with the bathwater.

What I think we, as a society, should be doing now is thinking about how we can prevent unwanted pregnancies in order to minimize the use of abortion. Not to punish women. Not to discourage sexual activity. Only to minimize the deaths. Liberals and progressives should be concerned with preserving life at all levels and in all circumstances, which necessarily includes the lives of unborn babies. Of course we don't favor compulsory pregnancy so we should work for better education and better availability of contraceptives.

Here's one of the problems: any pill or device that allows conception but prevents implantation is, by definition, not a contraceptive. A contraceptive is something that prevents conception. "Birth control" is any means of preventing births, so it obviously can include anything that prevents a newly conceived life from developing and being born, though it can also include contraceptives. Some people are opposed to all of it, including the simple barrier methods (condoms, diaphragms, etc.) But a major concern for many is the pills and devices that end embryonic lives. It's important to understand the distinction.

We are at a point now where everyone (I hope) believes it is wrong to kill a child of any age. Infanticide is not considered an option. Some believe abortion is acceptable up until a certain stage of pregnancy, and the stage accepted varies with individuals. Some believe abortion is never morally right but may be required in some rare cases, such as a pregnancy resulting from rape or a pregnancy threatening the life of the mother. Some oppose abortion in any circumstance. Some people within the last two groups also oppose birth control methods that can cause abortions. What all have in common is concern with killing of children, where we disagree is about the killing of unborn children. I think that right and left tend to act as checks upon each other in this and other issues.

And now I'm going to lunch, wishing for an end to all killing, an end to the great cultural divide, and an end to the Bush* regime.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

91. Nobody is saying everyone HAS to believe the use of the pill is right!

We are saying that if THEY are against it then THEY shouldn't use BCP. However, I am not against it, so what THEY believe doesn't really mean a damn thing to me except when they try to impose their beliefs on me.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

94. And you saying that the pill is infanticide doesn't make it so.

Even the anti-choice anti-pill people arne't in agreement on how often it happens or if it does happen.

[noiretextatique]

100. unfuckingbelivable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

how in the HELL can you find "middle ground" with people who believe contraception = infanticide? as i mentioned, what's next: murder charges for women who have spontaneous abortions? :eyes:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

101. Are these people against invitro as well?

Since all of those sperm-egg combos are prevented from implantation?

[Iris]

106. A good point that the Bush Admin. and other "pro-life" people

like to ignore.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

108. I guess it's fine because frozen isn't really "destroying" them

If THAT makes sense. :eyes:

[Iris]

110. what? You didn't realize they were God?

}(

[Pathwalker]

104. I was given the pill to TRY and regulate my periods!

I had enormous fibroids and several large cysts; I was given the pill in an effort to stop the CONSTANT bleeding that was endangering MY LIFE.
Worked for about three wonderful months. Then, I began hemmoraging and had to have an emergency hysterectomy - to save my life.

I was too sick to even NEED birth control, so the idea that a pharmasict could have denied me this script, which could have resulted in my death, makes me angry as hell. I would have just stood there bleeding all over the damn floor - loudly publicly stating WHY I was there, and WHY I remained there, until they changed their tiny, pathetic little minds. I'd have given their customers a show they wouldn't soon forget.

[kayell]

119. We're headed that way fast

There have been prosecutions and at least here in SC a conviction of women who harmed there "unborn child" through drug use. There is case in the last week of a woman who I believe is being charged for murdering her "unborn child" through drug use. It is not a far step to prosecuting someone who has had a miscarraige due to drug or alcohol use, or lack of proper nutrition, or too much sports, or....... I for one am completely convinced that these people seek the Republic of Gideon.

[Iris]

126. or works in an occupation that is too hazardous. see post #46

[noiretextatique]

97. forcing them?!?! isn't it the other way around?

for god's sake, even the most "pro-life" person should be able to grasp that a microscopic collection of cells is NOT A PERSON. abortions occur naturally all the time...what's next: jail for women who miscarry?
and as MonicaL mentioned several times, contraception is not ABORTION.

[Iris]

105. There will never be an end to the cultural divide.

Your post just proved it.

[kayell]

120. You're right. So long as people try to force their moral judgements on

others, while at the same time claiming that people who do not want to have moral judgements forced on them are oppressing the oppresors, the situation is hopeless.

[Mandate My Ass]

107. Quelle ironique!!!

Pharmacists forcing women to become pregnant against their will is good, but asking pharmacists not to do their stated job without interference in women's childbearing and contraceptive choice is bad?

So you're saying enforced conception is acceptable and preferable to having someone perform the job they contracted to do which entails they dispense legally and medically prescribed medication. The doctor and patient should just deal with this level of interference in their health care?

Oh but this is far and away my favorite part: We need to discourage unintended pregnancies by banning -- or at the very least denying access to -- the most effective form of birth control ever invented to date. How very delightfully convoluted.

Oh, and as I suggested above, DBDB, learn your definitions. Pregnancy occurs when two conditions have been met:

1) The sperm fertilizes the egg

AND

2) The egg implants itself on the uterine wall.

Anything that interferes with either of these processes is contraception. The pill and EC are -- repeat after me -- contraception. RU486, on the other hand is an abortifacient.

If you believe pregnancy occurs when the sperm meets the egg, that is an opinion without any legal or medical substantiation to back it up. Don't come here expecting others to buy into it because it is a subjective opinion with no basis in fact.

Oh, and enjoy your lunch.

[Pithlet]

116. I know.

I would think that someone who was so adamantly against abortion would support something that prevents that. Frankly, the logic escapes me. Abortion is wrong, so lets restrict something that prevents the unwanted pregnancy that leads to abortion.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

123. But but but but...

that's not what they say!

http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html

If you have used these products, this is very sobering news. Pharmaceutical companies and medical providers have made many parents unwitting accomplices to their own children's death by birth control abortion. The Pill and its "cousins" kill children earlier in their life than surgical abortion. In America, chemical abortions are estimated to kill more than 7 million babies each year -- while surgical abortions kill about 1.5 million babies each year.

...3) One way the Pill causes early abortions is that it interfers with the flexing motions and the cilia movement of the fallopian tubes. These changes slow the transportation of newly conceived child from the fallopian tubes to the womb. Unfortunately, many small babies starve to death in the fallopian tubes because chemicals caused changes that prevented them from reaching the womb in time to be nourished.

4) Another way the Pill causes early abortions: If your tiny baby survives the ride down the fallopian tube to your womb, the Pill will almost always cause the endometrium (the lining of your uterus) to reject your child. Chemical reactions often cause the lining of your womb to become thin, shriveled and unable to support implantation of your newly conceived child.This means that in almost every case, your new child will not be able to attach to the wall of your womb where he or she would normally live, grow and receive nourishment for 9 months. This means your tiny baby will starve to death and his or her remains will be passed along in your next bleeding cycle. (The "Study of Abortion Deaths Commission" estimates that this happens in women in America who use the Pill approximately 1 to 4 million times each year.)The chemicals that cause these early abortions are called abortifacients which is the medical term for any chemical agent that causes an abortion.


http://www.christiananswers.net/q-sum/q-life030.html

Wouldn't your position mean that some forms of artificial birth control result in homicide?

Yes. For example, forms of birth control that result in the death of the conceptus, such as the IUD and the "morning-after" pill (RU-486), would logically entail homicide if the pro-life position is correct. However, not every form of birth control results in the death of the conceptus. For example, the condom and sterilization would not logically entail homicide if the pro-life position is correct, for they merely prevent conception.


http://www.gentlecreations.net/hastings/

While it is true that the large part of fighting and winning the battle over abortion rights has to do with fighting the most heinous and recently-granted abortion rights and working our way down to birth control, there are many ways in which the abortion battle needs to be fought at the birth control level. As can be seen in the medical effects of both birth control and abortion as well as in the chain of legal events which led to the legalization of abortion, there is an inextricable connection between abortion and birth control.

Christians have the God-given responsibility to be “salt and light." If we desire to see the end of the evil atrocity of abortion, we are going to have to reject the anti-child mindset of our lost and dying culture and pave the way by demonstrating that we love, value and want children.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Christ on a cracker, until those "babies" floating down the tubes actually latch onto something (say, the uterus) they will never be anything but a clump of cells that have the potential to turn into something more. Heck, they could "float" around for an eternity and never turn into a "baby".

Yes, younger ladies, there are folks out there who want to take away your legal right to reproductive options, including access to the Pill and other forms of birth control.

Us geezers won this access for you -- it's YOURS to lose.

I pray you wake up before it's too late.

[gollygee]

121. I don't want to force anyone to do diddly against their conscience (m)

If you don't believe in guns, don't work in a gun shop.

If you don't believe in the consumption of meat, don't work at a butcher's shop.

If you don't believe in the use of any particular kind of legal medication, don't be a pharmacist.

Maybe PETA folks should start getting jobs at butcher's shops and refusing to sell meat because it's against their conscience to do so. That would be a great challenge to this stupid thing.

[Ladyhawk]

118. Oh, this make sense...get rid of the pill so more abortions take place.

Sigh.

[Christof]

122. Birth Control DOES NOT equal abortion!

When are these right-wing religious fundies gonna learn?????

God damn it! They piss me off! :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[SSFFMMM]

125. Great. We need more people to control ourselves!

[yellowcanine]

127. Actually many are trying to get rid of all contraception except for

"Vatican Roulette". Sex is for procreation, dontcha know - and if your going to use it just for pleasure you should be punished by having a baby or getting AIDS (no condoms).

[Iris]

132. They'd ban Natural Family Planning if they could figure out a way to do it

The Catholic Church only endorses it as a compromise.

[kayell]

161. Sad Catholic BC story

My mothers best friend in the '60s was a devout Catholic. She and her husband at 10 living children during the time we knew them. Plus several miscarriages and a still born. She even popped out a child once a year during the time her husband returned from Nam drinking like a fish. And of course they were pretty darn poor too, with 10 kids crammed in a small 3 bedroom house.

With each pregnancy her health declined, eventually to the point where her doctor was warning her in urgent terms, but her priest would not hear of them using birth control. Each birth she was dosed again with a lecture on the sin of using birth control and advised of her only recourse - in those days abstention.

I don't know all the details because I was a child and only found out as much as I did by typical kid like eavesdropping. But it was obvious that abstention was not an option due to the husbands objections. There was some sad muttering about wifely duties etc. And a year later - another baby, and another decline in health.

The good news is she didn't die.

After the last miscarriage, her doctor laid down the law, and apparently hauled in hubbie for a long lecture. No more kids, but hubbie started frequenting some of the questionable areas of our small town. (Apparently this wasn't a mortal sin.) Far too small a town to keep any secret like that.

Wife wouldn't go on the pill or use any other BC though. Her priest kept telling her about mortal sin. She knew what was going on. I heard her tell my mom once with a shrug that men have needs. She did a good job at being the pious suffering spouse. The kids including my best friend knew. Their classmates were glad to tell them.

I learned a lot from watching that about the costs of moral absolutes.

[Nobody]

166. Actually NFP is intended to try to get pregnant

I went to a Catholic HS. In class I learned that the purpose behind Natural Family Planning was to attemtp to become pregnant. The Catholic Church believes that any sexual activity requires two thing: 1) you must be married. and 2) you must be open to pregnancy. So Natural Family Planning is not supposed to be used to prevent pregnancies, you're supposed to have sex when you're most likely to get pregnant.

This was told our class as the Obligatory Party Line just before all the details on to how to know when you're LEAST fertile. You know and I know that people use NFP to avoid pregnancy.

[Silverhair]

135. No. No pro-life group that I know of is trying to stop BC pills.

I live in a strongly pro-life area, and know a lot of pro-life people. And a lot of them are on the pill. I am a born-again Christian and have been for well over 40 years, and I have NEVER heard a preacher preach against "the pill", although I have heard many condemn abortion.

They believe that life begins at conception, and that life should be protected once it exists. However they don't care about potential life as that is merely hypothetical.

However, as I am a Protestant, I can not speak for the Catholics. I do know that Catholic theology holds that all sex must be open for life to begin or else that it becomes sinful. Protestants don't agree with that.

[Iris]

139. If life begins at conception,

then any pill or device that doesn't allow the "conceived life" to implant itself into the uterus' lining would be an abortion. Where do you think people who are withholding these contraceptives are getting this information? How do you think they are reaching this conclusion? There was just a story on NPR a few weeks ago about an emergency room nurse who absolutely REFUSED to give the morning after pill to rape vicitms.

There are a lot of pro-life zealots who would like to see the pill outlawed and your Christian friends being on the pill doesn't change that.

[Iris]

140. And just in case you still don't believe it, here's a Pro-life America

link you might be interested in

http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html

[SemiCharmedQuark]

141. Do you have any links to what Bush has done to support these nuts?

I know a few women on the fence. White, wealthy women who aren't too concerned with many issues, but try and take their birth control away and I know they'll get on Kerry's side.

[Iris]

142. I don't and

I'm not sure they're out there. Many small churches in the South hand out voting cards over this issue and the religious right are a major part of his base.

But I don't know if the Republicans will ever really do anything to flat out ban abortion or the pill because another big part of their base is a bunch of self-centered, suburban scum who would much rather have an SUV than more kids.

But it's worth doing a search if you have time.

[Iris]

144. You could just send them the links to Pro-life america

and try to drive home the point that by voting for Bush, they are aligning themselves with people who would like to see their rights severely restricted.

I know a lot of people are not that good at synthesizing information and/or drawing conclusions, but this seems fairly obvious to me.

Not only that, but Bush & Co. were trying to place restrictions on the Family & Medical Leave Act when they first got into office. I'm not sure if they were successful, but when your friends decide they DO want children, they could find themselves in the position of not having the time they need after birth or during an illness. Not hard to see that by supporting business's in this, the admin. is basically saying if a woman gets pregnant or needs to care for her aging parents, it is her responsibility and hers alone.

[Iris]

145. Frontline on PBS

is doing a special called "The Choice." The premise is we are a country divided and that's what this election is all about.

You could suggest they watch it. They may not draw the conclusions we'd like them to draw from it, but it will put the candidates side-by-side and show how different their philosophies regarding government are. If your friends go right, well, at least you know they did it after being exposed to what it's all about!

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/choice2004/

[kayell]

162. Then you aren't paying attention

http://www.pfli.org/
http://www.pfli.org/main.php?pfli=kemikalkill

http://www.aaplog.org/collition.htm

I think these first links are the scariest since they involve alleged health care providers.
---------------------------------
http://www.epm.org/

http://www.prolife.com/
http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html


Google birth control pill pro-life

If you are a woman or a thinking, caring male it will make your blood run cold. This little collection above is from the 1st 10 hits on that search.

[annabanana]

150. Old R Catholic arguement.....sex for procreation ONLY

If you aren't doing to have a kid...you're not allowed to do it at all.

[LibertyLover]

157. Birth Control and control

Several years ago I read an article (I can't remember where now, sorry) that some of the very strict fundamentalist Christian groups do want to eventually outlaw all types of birth control. They are working on outlawing abortion first because it is an issue that even many pro-choice people have some reservations about. But the ultimate goal for some of these wackos is the total outlawing of all birth control. Sad really.

[Iris]

160. And all it would take is making a law that says life begins at conception

and that that life has the rights of any other citizen.

[noiretextatique]

163. pro-life?

hardly. that's why i've started calling it the pro-control movement.

[Iris]

164. or anti-quality-of life movement! nt

[Nikia]

165. Most fertilized eggs don't implant, naturually

I have seen varying figures given for the rate of fertilized egg implantion, but most of the figures are over half. Everytime there is an egg fertilized, over half the time it doesn't implant. Women who do not use birth control or only naturual family planning are losing more fertilized eggs than women on the pill because the pill usuaully prevents there from becoming a fertilized egg.
These people need to face that fact.