French need to understand exactly what side the croissant is buttered on

[Obamarama]

here in Bush's Amerika. So that's why I just bought a sweatshirt with the following statement on it to wear during my upcoming 20-day trip to France:

(EDIT: Hmmmmm...image isn't showing up. DAMNIT!...here's a link anyway : http://www.cafepress.com/americanapology.8891145?zoom=yes#zoom )

It's a sweatshirt that says (in all six UN major languages): I'm sorry my president is an idiot. I didn't vote for him."

[EstimatedProphet]

1. I'm sure that'll make you a lot of French friends n/t

[Seabiscuit]

102. The French will love you for it.

BTW, Estimated Prophet - love that pic!

[wurzel]

2. If you have never been there before you are in for a real treat!

It is a very beautiful country. And the people actually run it. You can feel their freedom as you walk around the streets. Makes you realize there is something very wrong over here. Paris is everything it is cracked up to be. The French are not "gladhanders". But they are very polite and have no animosity toward Americans.

[Name removed]

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[Cheswick2.0]

4. When you go into a restaurant do you order Freedom Fries?

Just wondering...........

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[JPJones]

7. I've been to America

The Americans tend to be bucktoothed and enjoy sex with farm animals. They also tend to be stupid and vote for people who are dumber than they are.

[Selwynn]

36. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!

[teamster633]

50. Many of them are dirty and smelly, too. Don't they bathe?

[Yupster]

117. My experience

from the 80's was that the family I lived with in Austria limited me to two showers a week. They said it was because too many showers were unhealthy, but mainly that hot water was much more expensive there than here.

There was no doubt at all that the people in Europe as a whole did not bathe as much as Americans. The evidence of that was everywhere in the air. That's a memory that's still strong over 20 years later.

[chromotone]

85. I RESENT that comment!!!

I for one am NOT bucktoothed!!!

on edit: nyuck, nyuck, nyuck!

[mike_c]

125. LOL

Best reply of the night!

[name not needed]

8. Sounds like someone's impression of the French

is based on Monty Python movies and what Bill O'Relly says...

[buycitgo]

9. your mother was a hamster!

and you father smelled of elderberries!

[Name removed]

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[Kathy in Cambridge]

14. BWAHAHAHAHA!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

15. I lived there and have been there a bunch of times

when were you there?

[Name removed]

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[HEyHEY]

21. They aren't being rude - it's a different culture

Their culture is just very straight forward unlike our lying-used car salesman one.

[leesa]

40. Well, that's a pretty bigoted statement

"very dirty people"??

"a few nice people"??

You must be one of them there Ugly Merikkkans we always hear about.

[Name removed]

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[smirkymonkey]

97. Want Freedom Fries with that?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

122. On your way out, don't forget to take your white sheet with you.

[Rabrrrrrr]

53. Makes me wonder what kind of attitude you came in with

perhaps in your mind you wanted them to be dirty and rude and that negative energy came out.

Or else, since you wanted to dislike them, no matter what they did you would resent.

How do find the natives in other countries you travel to?

[gollygee]

61. I'm of French descent

Does that make me dirty, rude, resentful and hateful, or is that only true of French people still living in France?

Just wondering . . .

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[GoneOffShore]

86. Where in France?

In Paris the trash is collected DAILY and all the streets of the capital are cleaned EVERY week. Yes, there is dog shit, but then so is there in NYC.
The Metro is cleaner, and you can actually travel around the city on public transport at any time of the day.

[Name removed]

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[GoneOffShore]

92. We're planning on

retiring there. Got an American friend who has lived in Paris since 78. He never wants to come back here.
Despite the 'oppurtunites' France is a better place to live.
Food, wine, bread, air quality, public transport.

[Name removed]

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[GoneOffShore]

128. No ties

Just love the country and the food.
Never did encounter wild monkeys. Where was that?
We've been to France probably 20 times in the past 15 years. Yes, there is the occasional dog crap on the pavement, but, hey, we live in Philadelphia, where the drivers are the worst in the world, we have a criminal mayor, the trash doesn't get picked up and developers knock down architectural treasures every other week.
In addition, there is no sense of history here. History was last week, and it's dead.
At least in Europe, people have some sort of sense of where they came from, who they really are, and how important the past is.

[Yupster]

119. Wild French monkeys?

I missed them I guess. Sounds funny though.

[sffreeways]

114. I guess you didn't notice

the motocrote ?

If you stepped in it with your left foot the French will tell you it's good luck.

[Yupster]

118. It's funny but my main memory of Rome

is of honking car horns. Funny what you remember.

[sffreeways]

113. One thing I know about the French

since I've been married to a most incredible French woman for 11 years is that they don't like loud, pompous, ignorant, uncivilized idiots that come to their country expecting it to be like America.

Dirty ? That's an obnoxious, stupid remark. I don't doubt you didn't enjoy France and I don't doubt the French didn't enjoy you.

I've known some people that have been to France and didn't like it. Generally speaking they are classless, loud, ignorant, dumb asses.

Do the French a favor and stay in America where you feel more comfortable.

It's Americans with the attitude you've just expressed that give the French a reason to be aloof.

[Yupster]

115. I went to college in Austria

That was during the 80's though.

Man those Europeans hated Reagan something fierce. I wonder if the hatred of Bush over there is equal to what I saw.

Anyway, as a student, of course I traveled widely throughout the continent on both sides of the iron curtain.

The place I remember most fondly (besides Austria) was Hungary. My worst memories?

No contest. France. Everytime I went there, I couldn't wait to leave.

Just my own opinion of course from a long time ago.

[yodermon]

116. I *just* came back from Paris,

was there for 2 weeks. No one was rude to me at all, and my French is painfully laughable. I was there on business, and my hosts were gracious, patient and helpful. I was continually in awe at the gross exaggeration and sterotyping of the French that goes on in the US, because I saw nothing of which you speak.

I left with a desire to take some refresher courses in French and then return for a longer visit, and with my family this time.

PS. Everyone was better looking, too. The women were more beautiful, the men were handsomer, and the kids were cuter. Much lower rate of obesity, from what I could see. Very few McDonalds, but a cafe' on every corner!

[Name removed]

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[Arianrhod]

72. France is what Jefferson envisioned for America.

Which is why he spent the year there while the Constitution--which he felt was a poor shadow of what he wanted--was being ratified. That's also why Franklin joined him afterwards. They were great admirers of French culture, politics and philosophy. France had a true revolution after ours, a Revolution in which the people themselves rose up and deposed the tyrants--as opposed to the wealthy aristocrats of America, pissed about paying taxes but essentially bound to their riches and power, who sought to loose themselves from the bonds of authority by rousing the lower classes to their cause through deception and the use of ersatz appeals to loyalty--these downtrodden, oppressed human beings of "old" Europe overthrew the existing order by beheading the heads of state, thus producing a secular, humanist society that persists to this day. Cake, indeed! That's why *'s America hates the French more than Communism itself--a telling retrograde means of thinking, a fear and loathing of freedom and brotherhood, of true individuality and intellectual power. The Pledge of Allegiance originally included the French phrase "Liberty, Equality, Brotherhood"; but it was considered too controversial, too "European", and so was replaced by the phrase "One nation, indivisible". The French are the embodiment of Renaissance, Enlightenment thinking. Whereas Republican America hates the Renaissance, hates intellectualism, hates freedom and individuality. They are a cadre of insularism, of isolationism, of xenophobia and fear and anger and base animal instinct.

BTW, ich mag seinen Name. Woher kommen denn ihren Wurzeln aus? Meinen kommen von unter die Kelten aus, die erste Volk von Europa. Meine Leute waren die erste Heidene von den Westen Welt--den Princip von alle Religion, dass ihn gefolgt haben. Und Sie?

And France is more than just a beautiful country. It is the keeper of secrets that cause Americans to tremble.

[Name removed]

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[Kellanved]

111. FWIW: Chirac came a long way

He started out as a pretty extreme RW and is now one of the most centrist European Presidents. I'd have liked Jospin a lot more in that office, in fact I still do, but I still admire Chirac a lot more than Blair.

[Dzimbowicz]

12. Be prepared...

I have only been to France in passing. This past summer I took a group of students on a tour to Europe. One afternoon we took a side trip to Strasbourg and the French were very, very rude to all of us. In my opinion, it was because we were obviously tourists. There are many nice people in France, but you will have to go out to the smaller towns and cities to meet them.

Be prepared for all sorts of comments concerning your shirt, both positive and negative. And, if the French are rude to you ask them this question: Do you speak German? They will obviously say no. Then tell them that they are welcome!

On a lighter note... My grandfather was a soldier who fought in WW1. After the war he was awaiting his orders to return home to the US. Now, like many people on my mother's side of the family, we have a tendency to dream rather vividly, and even sleepwalk. Well, my grandfather went for a "somnambulent stroll" one night and found himself in the hallway of his hotel. Oh, I forgot to tell you this: my grandfather slept naked. He had only one option to re-enter his room, he had to go to the front desk and obtain a key (somehow he had locked the door during his "stroll"). The desk clerk, without any emotion, simply went with him to his room and unlocked the door. So, as the Frenchies say: c'est la vie. Our family has laughed about this for decades.

[Mikimouse]

13. But, of course we should also make sure to thank..

"Be prepared for all sorts of comments concerning your shirt, both positive and negative. And, if the French are rude to you ask them this question: Do you speak German? They will obviously say no. Then tell them that they are welcome!"

We should be sure to be courteous and mind our Goddamned manners when we are speaking to members of a nation who essentially won the Revolutionary war for the American colonials, or are you unfamiliar with inconvenient facts of history?

[greed]

18. Where is your mind?

The people living in France now are not the same as those living there during the Revolutionary War. It is a very different place. My God you are reaching.

[Mikimouse]

22. My mind is where it has always been, and I think that it is

at best, irresponsible to keep making statements like the one I responded to. It is a matter of history that without the help we got from the French, we would have still been a colonial entity (see Cornwallis defeat at Yorktown and the French Naval involvement, among others). I might also remind you that WWII is historical as well, and that if your argument is to be taken seriously, then the actions of WWII are also just irrlelvant as the actions of the Revolutionary war.
Reaching? Hardly. I am being open minded and hoenst about world events, both contemporary and historical. The US has no claim to a 'high ground' on this issue.
Lastly, many of the French fought tooth and nail against the German occupation during WWII. The French do NOT deserve to be denigrated just because they have dared to speak truth to power.

[Name removed]

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[Mikimouse]

29. Let's get this straight...

First of all, my original response was not to you, it was to another poster, thus your current reply to me makes no sense. I made no comparison between your statement of opinion and the Revolutionary war, go back and read the posts chronologically with an eye toward the posters the responses are directed to. Surprise, surprise, I never responded to any of your posts prior to the current set, and had no desire to do so!
America has helped out the French in times of war, yes, and the French have helped out the Americans in time of war as well. Your point? Go back and read the thread, carefully, this time.

[Dzimbowicz]

33. OK Mikimouse, I agree...

we should not denigrate the French for their decisions concerning our actions. No hard feelings on my part toward you. Any toward me?

[Mikimouse]

35. None whatsoever... welcome to DU. I look forward to

many good discussions. By the way, my vitriol was not aimed at you, but another poster who jumped into the middle of the exchange. :thumbsup:

[Name removed]

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[Dzimbowicz]

27. Not quite so

Are you aware that most of the German U-Boats were built by French shipyards? Are you aware that the French company Renault built many of the aircraft engines for the Luftwaffe? Are you aware of the SS-Division Charlemagne, which consisted of volunteer Frenchmen and Belgians? Are you aware of the LVF (the Volunteer French Legion) which was also an SS unit supported completely by donations by the French people? My specialty was underground resistance in occupied Europe and in comparison to Poland, Yugoslavia and the USSR, the French were quite timid in their resistance to the German occupation. Not to mention the puppet government of Vichy...

[Mikimouse]

34. I was not around yet, but my family was involved in the resistance

in Eastern Europe, as part of the underground railroad, and some other activities that shall remain undiscussed. I am aware of the things that you mentioned, and have no reason to argue that point. I only suggested, and rightly so, that the jingoism toward the French is irreponsible. Many of the same types of arguments could easily be made regarding the actions of many Americans during the Revolution, and in fact, in later wars, WWII being one of them. Germnay benefitted from financial support from businessmen in the US, up to the time (and some have argued even after the time) that the US entered the war in 1941. PLease also bear in mind that the French population suffered great losses during WWI, and was thus not in a good position to offer stiff resistance to the advancing German military machine.

[Name removed]

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[sangh0]

88. If she is an authority

It's because she's using facts as arguments, and not snide name-calling.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[smirkymonkey]

94. No.

You'd be a BIGOT.

[Dzimbowicz]

62. Yes I am aware of the Bush family's profiteering...

however, MANY of my Polish relatives were victims of that bu$h family steel which was wielded by the SS-Division Charlemagne as well as the LVF (mostly Frenchmen, some Belgians included) in the vicinity of Deblin, Poland; and, yes the Germans were also included. I guess when only three members of a rather large family survive such things hard feelings do arise and are difficult to suppress. Maybe I am a bigot in some respects.

I have two comments for you: You stated: "most of the steel AFTER the war started?" Evidently you know very little of the Krupp and Thyssen steel corporations.

If you had not been so rude, an apology from me would have been offered to you.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

124. Do yourself a favor...do a Google search on the following...

....+"Bush" +"Walker" +"Union Bank" +"Auschwitz".

Also be advised that the Union Bank made loans to Nazi Germany until they were shut down ALMOST A YEAR AFTER THE AMERICAN ENTRY INTO WWII. Those loans were used for a variety of purposes to include helping to finance the German steel industry.

Maybe then you'll understand what you were being told.

By the way, I'm truely sorry for your family's losses during WWII.

[Dzimbowicz]

132. Like mreh stated in another post...

Many different nationalities and corporations were culpable in the profiteering and atrocities during WW2. And, I as I acknowledged, I am aware of this. However, as I have "put out on the table" that I have a doctorate in history (primary field: modern Europe with emphasis on political/economic/society/military). As you probably can understand, all of these fields/topics are interrelated. As of yet, no one else has placed any credentials as such on the table. So, please understand if I have the tendency to wonder about certain statements which have been made to me (am I dealing with genuinely informed people or pundits?). As far as sources are concerned, I must use more than the internet, although it is a good starting point, but it is not the final word.
Verification of my credentials: my dissertation, The Power of the Idea versus the Force of Arms (yes, I know this should be in italics, but such commands on this editor escape me) can be found via Library of Congress call number: LD 5031.82.D59.

I am fully aware that Auschwitz, as well as the other camps, were built by the Nazi government taking contractual bids prior to construction; and yes, the Prescott side of the bu$h family and Ford were indeed involved in war profiteering, as much as RCA was "in bed with" the Mussolini regime in Italy. I do have a good understanding of what I am being told, although my interpretation of it is from a different perspective as those participating in the discussion.

Also, thank you for your feelings about my family's losses during the war.

[mreh]

60. Maybe you want to go check out the BFEE and their

contributions to the Germans and the Nazi efforts before and during WWII. Bank rolling invasions seems to be a family hobby for profit!

Wonder if any of the French contributions to the war efforts could have taken place if Prescott wasn't so generous and greedy.

[Dzimbowicz]

67. No, without the BFEE's activities

the French probably would not have been placed in such a position.

[mreh]

73. So many nationalities share some blame for the atrocities of

the Nazi regime before and during WWII, including Americans. Seems silly to just talk about the few citizens of one nation that were complicit with the war effort and to omit citizens from other nations that bankrolled things.

[Dzimbowicz]

89. Agreed....

No hard feelings. The comment made earlier about me being a bigot lit my fuse. You see my maternal grandparents immigrated to the US in 1910 to escape Tsarist Russia from Deblin, Poland (then a part of Russia) so they could be free in America. In 1917 my grandfather volunteered to fight against the Germans (one of the three occupiers of Poland since 1792). He was highly decorated by the US Army (Silver Star, Purple Heart and a personal citation from General Pershing) as well as the French (Croix de Guerre). Then only twenty-five years later to learn of how the French gave in so easily and then cooperated with the Germans broke my grandparents hearts.

My grandparents also left me with one other family story in particular, among others (read the one in my original post):
Their brother and sister (my great aunt and uncle) were executed in Deblin for helping gypsy children evade an ethnic round-up. They were hung from lamp posts and left there for over a week as an example to others. The "soldiers" who carried out this execution were from the LVF (the Legion of French Volunteers). Hopefully, you may understand, but I do not expect agreement, of why I feel the way that I do.

Once again, I apologize for my strong emotions; and, maybe I should not have shared them here with all of you.

dla swietego spokoju
(let it go in peace)

[mreh]

96. I am of Polish descent as well. I have no idea how many of

my relatives were killed in WWII, I am sure there were some. My grandparents on my father's side immigrated here from Poland and as my grandparents died before I was born, I never had the opportunity to ask them any of the particulars of their lives in Poland before they came to the U.S. My father was a AirCorp/Air Force navigator in WWII, but he never spoke of the war before he died. We tried to get him to tell us about his experiences, but he would not, could not.

Your strong emotions are understandable, but try to keep things in perspective. The most evil member of the Nazi regime that exists today is the BFEE. They profitted from and are the power they are today because of their finciancial contributions to the Nazis before and during WWII.

The French were occupied and struggling for their lives. The BFEE was sitting cozy in the states, purporting to be good Americans.

As you admitted in a earlier post, if it were not for the BFEE's financial assistance to the Nazis, the horrors that you attribute to "some" of the French during WWII would probably never have taken place.

Peace to you.

[Dzimbowicz]

99. Thank you for your understanding...

and I agree with you concerning the BFEE. Once again, I apologize for my strong emotions.

[mreh]

109. Never, ever apologize for emotions, strong or otherwise...

You are entitled to your emotions and they are what help you remain human and empathetic to those that struggle similarly.

There is no need to apologize for any of your posts or your emotions.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

112. Are you aware of IBM and Ford's collusion with Nazi Germany?

I advise you not to go there.

[Dzimbowicz]

133. See my post to Media_Lies_Daily

I hope this will answer any questions you have of me.

[Dzimbowicz]

136. One more thought...

While I was a student in the former East Germany (1993-96) I had an interesting discussion, among many, with people who were born, raised and educated in the former GDR; and were still believers in Socialism. One concerned the "cruelty or inhumanity" (we were speaking in German and the word "Grausamkeit" was used) of capitalism. As the former East German said: "Capitalism makes a profit from harvesting raw materials, then profits from construction, then profits by making the implements of war, then profits from the war itself, then once again from reconstruction. It is an evil circle which seems to keep repeating itself."

I then must pose the question: Is this the essence of capitalism? At least it appears that it is the essence of some corporations and politicians in the US, past and present.

Personally, I can agree with his perspective. There is merit to it; and, it seems to fall in line with your statement/question.

[JPJones]

28. When exactly was the ethnic cleansing in France

followed by the resettlement of the country by the current day Frenchmen?

Vous etes tres bete.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

123. And you're fresh out of "reach".

[Dzimbowicz]

19. Valid point...

However, most of their actions in the Revolutionary War were purely stationary. But, with the methods of warfare at that time, they were indeed useful. An example was the positioning of their fleet off of Yorktown.

As someone with a doctorate in history, no I am not unfamiliar with "inconvenient facts" of history. I am not try to fight here, but the Revolutionary War was won much the same way the Vietnamese won the war against the French and later against the US: it became too long and too expensive for the sronger power to carry out their war effort. I can also state that not much French blood was shed in their efforts to help us defeat the British.

[Mikimouse]

25. The methods of warfare during that time were almost exclusively

stationary. One line stands here, the other stands there (usualoy at failry close quarters). They both fire volleys, and for some poor unfortunates, the ball coming out of the smoothbore muskets of the time bounces the wrong way at the end of the barrel and they are killed. European style warfare at its best. The weaponry of the time pretty much dictated the nature of warfare.

[HEyHEY]

80. Don't you mean "But of course! hon hon hon!"

;-)

[Mikimouse]

84. Well, I would, but unfortunately, my ancestral homeland was on

the other side of both World Wars (although, both my mother and father spoke French fluently). :shrug:

[Name removed]

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[HEyHEY]

26. Don't sweat it

You're not going to be kicked off for saying that. We havea few....kneejerkers here.

[Selwynn]

38. What experiences? Name them.

[Name removed]

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[Selwynn]

56. Thanks, all I needed to know.

If you're not willing to give any kind of support to your impressions, then there's no reason for me to care about anything you have to say on the matter.

Have a good day,
Sel

[Name removed]

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[Media_Lies_Daily]

126. Well, we know that you're already back in your own hole...

...because you appear to be sitting upon your own shoulders.

That might also explain the "dirty and smelly" part of your commentary tonight.

[HEyHEY]

70. going against the grain and slandering a nation are two different things

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[GoneOffShore]

82. A couple of questions for you.

Did you or any of your group attempt to speak French?
Did you say "Bonjour" when you went into stores?
Were you typically loud, underdressed, American tourists?
Did you remember that you weren't in Disneyland?
These are all complaints that I have when I observe Americans abroad.
If you expect Europe to be a sanitized, slightly quaint version of home, stay home!

[Dzimbowicz]

95. If you are asking the questions of me (Dzimbowicz)...

No, I specifically told my students to dress as plainly, and as neutrally as possible throughout all of Europe; and to be polite. My group was eclectic and the students who study French even tried to speak French. Yes, we knew for a fact that we were not in Disneyland, my students are rather well educated and polite, and although they are currently residing in the Charlotte area, most are from across the US. We even had several students from Latin America and the UK.
I explained to them before leaving how Europeans view us and told them to try and not to fit into these images. BTW, I have lived in Germany and Poland and I have listened to what people say about us; I feel that I can learn more when listening than when talking.

[tedoll78]

87. God, how I am so tired of that talking point!

"And, if the French are rude to you ask them this question: Do you speak German? They will obviously say no. Then tell them that they are welcome!"

FYI: It was because of a French blockade at Yorktown that allowed the Colony's army to corner Cornwallis' forces on a peninsula, preventing an escape. The British saw that the Americans and French had cornered them, and smartly surrendered. Had the French not been there, the war would have continued, and we would have continued losing battles. So you could argue that after the Revolutionary war and WWII, the U.S. and France can call it even.

[Kellanved]

110. You did that in Strasbourg?

Let's just say that it is an interesting place for such a comment.

[Dzimbowicz]

131. If you were addressing that question to me...

I have never been to France, but I have traveled throughout many places in Europe, mainly Eastern Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Switzerland and Spain), I did not exactly know what to expect in Strasbourg. In listening to eastern Germans (I attended the Martin Luther University in Halle on an academic grant from 1993 to 1994 and it was extended to 1996) many stated how they spotted Americans in a crowd: mainly blue jeans, white sneakers, and not to forget the ball caps. BTW (or FYI), my German friends are mainly from Halle, Leipzig, Roßlau bei Dessau, one from Siegen, but she chooses to reside in Leipzig and there is one Austrian (Hal). In Poland they spotted us by "how well fed we are". So, I know that there must be some way the French would be able to spot us, although the manner in which they would do this was (and still is) unbeknownst to me. I do have many students in my school who are from other countries and I asked my students if they could spot who these students were. Most of them said "yes" and then I asked them how. After they explained their answers, I said we are subject to the same type of scrutiny by people from other countries.
I hope this answers your question, if it was directed to me.

Since your profile states that you reside in Berlin,

mit freundlichen Grüßen...

[Kellanved]

141. fair enough

Thanks for your reply. I never had any bad experiences in France, absolutely the contrary to be exact. I've always considered that as being amazing, being Le Boche etc. - it was always far worse in the UK, although I would not claim that I was ever treated badly there either.

Attending University in Halle so shortly after the wall came down must have been interesting.

And welcome to DU :hi: .

MfG
H

[Yupster]

120. In Strassbourg, I suffered from

the famed French splitting train.

I got on the wrong end, when the right end went where I was going.

So, I got stuck in the Strassbourg train station for the night.

I leaned against my sleeping bag, turned on my little radio, and listened to the Miracle on Ice with a couple other college students who also got on the wrong end of the train. Great memory.

[GoneOffShore]

129. Strausbourg, a great place

to get beer, and good choucroute. Plus the Riesling is better than in Germany.
Otherwise you wouldn't see all the Mercedes with German plates lined up outside the French wine shops.

[TahitiNut]

17. Only 20 days? Wow. So much to enjoy and so little time.

Well, here're some suggestions ...
(1) Dinner on the bateau mouche (barge on the Seine) is a must. I prefer an outside table along the rail.
(2) Son et lumiere (sound and light) - evening shows at the various chateaus in the Loire valley. I particularly enjoyed Chenanceau and Azay l'Redeau (I apologize for my spelling)
(3) Dinner at one of the anachronistic restaurants on Isle St. Louis - I enjoyed Nos Ancestieres les Gauloise(sp?) (Our Ancesters the Gauls)
(4) Dinner at Restaurant Nicolas near Gare du Nord. Traditional. Excellent.
(5) The Louvre - give it at least an entire day, better two.
(6) The Musee d'Orsay - impressionists in the former Gare d'Orsay near Place de Concorde. It was in the Jeu d'Palme when I was there - but is awesome. Give it a day
(7) Sacre Cour and Montmarte! Wow! Everything to see is great. Get your pomme frites there.
(8) Afternoon - get a fresh baguette, a bottle of vin d'table, and some chevre and go to the Bois d'Bologne and sit on a blanket and watch folks play boules or petanque.
(9) Champagne district - take a tour through the cellars of one of the wineries. Moet et Chandon is super,
(10) Cathedrals, cathedrals, cathedrals - yes, Notre dame is great but see some of the others, too. Chartres is really impressive and Reims is a must see.
(11) Honfleur - a remarkably picturesque town along the Brittany coast. Wonderful place.
(12) Le Guide Michelin - it's the bible! Ultra-reliable.
(13) Get a Eurrail pass before you go - the trains are great!
(14) Hangover? Two words: Fernet Branca. (You'll join a fraternity of those who understand.)


If you're going to wear that shirt, be prepared to encounter some very well-informed and aggressive "conversationalists."

Learn some French and USE IT.

(My spelling above is TERRIBLE. Sorry.)

[Obamarama]

32. Bonjour, Tahiti Nut

Many thanks for the suggestions.

My partner is going for the whole month of October, and we'll be staying mostly in Paris, where we have rented an apartment literally around the corner from the Luxembourg Gardens in the 6eme.

I'm first generation French-American on my mom's side (she was born in Lille) so I really find the "Be prepared" type of thread quite hunorous. I've lost count of how many times I've actually been to France, but it's LOTS. This will be my partner's 7th visit to France. Between the two of us, I think we know "what to expect."

We've already done several of the big-ticket tourist things multiple times, so this is our chance to go to Paris, sans-itinerary, and do the off-the-beaten track sort of things we've always wanted to do on previous visits:

- Musee Marmottan
- Edith Piaf museum
- Cruise down the Canal St. Martin
- Bicycling through the Bois du Boulonge
- Taking a book and sitting in the Place des Voges
- Buying a Le Creuset French oven to use back in the apartment to cook up French delicacies from ingredients purchased from the markets along rue Mouffetard and rue Dauguerre; then bringing the Le Creuset back home as a souvenir.
- Going literally outside the door of our apartment to the boulangerie next door to buy fresh pain au chocolat every morning.

Will check out the Nicolas...have seen some reviews that have been favourable.

As for the sweatshirt, I don't plan on wearing it MOST of the time. I'm wearing it on the flight over and back, since I will be coming into contact with many travellers from around the world in the airports who will be able to read the message. We'll also be taking the TGV south for a few days and may wear it on the train trip down and back.

[TahitiNut]

57. Kewl!

I lived and worked there (Aulnay sous Bois, actually) for about four months quite a while ago. Every time I go back I feel like I'm returning to a place of the birth of some part of me. Restaurant Nicolas was a particular favorite of mine - no American tourists and, on balance, as good as the very best. (Tour d'Argent was nice but I liked Nicolas better.)

I envy your stay in St Germain/Luxembourg ... the strolling around there is terrific. Heck, you'll be in walking distance from the Seine and Isle de Cite and Isle St. Louis -- pretty affluent digs these days.

[JPJones]

23. Let's be clear - stereotyping the French is as difficult

as sterotyping Americans. Would you like to be lumped into the same category as the freepers?

Those who are blindly trashing the French, do you know any French people? Do you have any French friends?

From my observations, if you are look like a hick, dress like a hick, and act like a hick, the French will treat you like a hick. If you don't treat France like a giant EPCOT, you'll have a more pleasant experience.

[greed]

41. Right you are.

I was mistaken and over weight when I was there. Plus I did in fact dress like a hick. My apologies to the good people of France.

[Flagg]

138. Dude, you're not fooling anyone

I'll be reading your future contributions on DU with interest.
Should be interesting.

A little pointer: next time stick witht the rudeness thing.
Some French definetely can be rude. But we're not dirty. That gave you away.

[Tracer]

30. Rude and dirty?!

I've lived in France and not only are the French NOT dirty, but they are universally well-dressed. You won't see a Frenchman or woman wandering around Paris in ripped cutoffs and a wife-beater Ñ but you WILL see that on the overweight and loud tourists.

Furthermore, if you treat others politely and with courtesy, you will be treated the same in return.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HEyHEY]

44. well, she did have a point about wife beaters and cutoffs

I doubt you'd see anyone in Europe as dirty as some of the redneck slobs around this continent

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HEyHEY]

52. Calling them dirty is a bit broad too

But I guess only you are allowed to make sweeping generalizations

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HEyHEY]

59. Hey, you started it

[Laughing Mirror]

63. What do cutoffs have to do with Eurotrash?

You're funny.

[Obamarama]

64. Uh, greed....Eurotrash is not the same as "white trash"...

Hence the "cutoffs" comment makes no sense whatsoever. Methinks you are out of your league.

EUROTRASH: (oxymoron) One whose effortlessly impeccable style, tasteful understated elegance, and continent-hopping savoire vivre, is manifested in one's daily presentation---including, but not limited to:

1) choice of words (few and articulate; loudness only permitted for Italians...from Italy, not Jersey);

2)multilingual accent (reflecting upbringing by French nanny, German-Swiss headmaster at boarding school in St. Moritz, and a touch of "ivy-league American" from countless summers at parent's Easthampton residence and study period at Brown);

3)choice of clothing (at least 3 pieces orchestrated in natural fabrics of varying textures and varying coordinated colours--but not varying quality--only the finest, bien sur);

4)places frequented (ultra-modern Ian Schrager hang-outs, gourmet shops, 'historical districts', museum cafes, etc.; not Starbucks; never shopping malls);

5)lack of familiarity with cheap,disposable pop-culture ('Britney who?');

6)and of course, a command of the "I-don't-know-what": loafers without socks; cigarette smoked like '40's film star; collars on polo shirts turned upwards; selects unadvertised fragrances; almost entirely void of visible logos (exceptions:family crest or personal monogram; crocodile, polo player, and "G")employs the 'kiss on either cheek' greeting.

The word Eurotrash should only be used on the west side of 'the pond' and in relation to the bland, Puritan, mass-marketed,shrink-wrapped, petit-bourgeois style rampant in America.

[HEyHEY]

68. I THOUGHT SO

I didn't want to say anything because I wasn't sure if Eurotrash was the same as white trash, but I didn't think they were. BUt unlike our friend there, when unsure, I kept my mouth shut

[Laughing Mirror]

69. Quite accurate description of Eurotrash

Describes them to a tee.

[bvar22]

31. Whatever.

Whatever prejudices you hold against the French, you must admit that they were intelligent and sophisticated enough to oppose an unprovoked invasion of Iraq UNTIL the Weapons Inspectors had completed their job. Had bush* and America listened to the French:

1,000 young Americans would still be alive,
7,000 young Americans would still possess whole bodies,
16,000 innocent Iraqi civilians would still be alive,
the USA would still have some credibility in the World,
AND Saddam would STILL BE NO THREAT to the USA or the World!


How long before bush* and the republicans kill more Americans than Osama?

[mreh]

66. I still believe part of the reason that the French did want to

join us in the invasion of Iraq was because of their distrust of Cheney*. They have wanted to indict him for years now as he was head of Halliburton when the alleged bribery in Nigeria occurred. Isn't it so neat to have a 2nd in command that is a suspect in an international crime? We Americans should be so proud and so angry at the French. Folks seem to buy into the spin of the admin to hate France, they just cannot see the truth behind the spin. If we see the French as evil and if we suspect the French government, we cannot believe the "lies" about our "criminal" veep.

===================================
(snip)

At the heart of the matter is a $6 billion gas liquification factory built in Nigeria on behalf of oil mammoth Shell by Halliburton--the company Cheney headed before becoming Vice President--in partnership with a large French petroengineering company, Technip. Nigeria has been rated by the anticorruption watchdog Transparency International as the second-most corrupt country in the world, surpassed only by Bangladesh.

(snip)

According to accounts in the French press, Judge van Ruymbeke believes that some or all of $180 million in so-called secret "retrocommissions" paid by Halliburton and Technip were, in fact, bribes given to Nigerian officials and others to grease the wheels for the refinery's construction. These reports say van Ruymbeke has fingered as the bagman in the operation a 55-year-old London lawyer, Jeffrey Tesler, who has worked for Halliburton for some thirty years. It was Tesler who was paid the $180 million as a "commercial consultant" through a Gibraltar-based front company he set up called TriStar. TriStar, in turn, got the money from a consortium set up for the Nigeria deal by Halliburton and Technip and registered in Madeira, the Portuguese offshore island where taxes don't apply. According to Agence France-Presse, a former top Technip official, Georges Krammer, has testified that the Madeira-based consortium was a "slush fund" controlled by Halliburton--through its subsidiary Kellogg Brown & Root--and Technip. Krammer, who is cooperating with the investigation, also swore that Tesler was imposed as the intermediary by Halliburton over the objections of Technip.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1231-14.htm

[kerry-is-my-prez]

46. You can't blame the French for "sneering" at the uncultured 'Merikans

I sneer at the "typical" 'Merikans who are stupid enough to vote for Bush and actually believe the b.s. that comes out of his mouth. We ARE much less educated, less cultured and less sophisticated than Western Europeans.

Many Europeans think most of us are like "Texans" and I'm afraid that this is only going to get worse - thanks to our glorious leader.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

58. I'm an Amercian but not a "Merikan"

All I'm saying is that many Europeans spend a lot of time learning about art, music, history, world events etc. and most Americans do NOT. There are many 'Merikans who couldn't tell you who the current Vice President is.

[Cat Atomic]

78. lmao- I think someone watches too much Bill O'Reilly.

Or maybe your daddy doesn't like the French, and it's rubbed off on you.

You haven't backed up any of your bullshit with actual examples of their French filthiness or bad manners. It's like you've got a head full of comic TV stereotypes.

[Obamarama]

71. So true....here's a quip from David Sedaris....about Texans in Paris...

He and his partner encountered a group of young Texans on the metro in Paris and they were debating what city was better: Houston or Paris?

"It was a hot afternoon and the subject of air-conditioning came into play. Houston had it, Paris did not. Houston had ice cubes, tacos, plenty of free parking, and something called a Sonic Burger. Things were not looking good for Paris.

The crowds packed in, surrounding the seated Texans and reducing them to four disembodied voices. From the far corner of the car, one of them shouted they were tired and dirty and ready to catch the next plane home. The voice was weary and hopeless, and I identified completely. It was the same way I'd felt on my last visit to Houston."

From the essay "Picka Pocketoni," in the anthology Me Talk Pretty One Day by David Sedaris.

[Laughing Mirror]

75. Does it mention the president by name anywhere on the sweatshirt?

If they don't know you're American, the French who see this might confuse the message and think you are referring to Chirac. But don't worry, the majority of the French would probably agree with that sentiment as well.

[Obamarama]

74. Another observation on Americans visiting Europe...

Once again from one of my favorite authors, David Sedaris. What he describes here is absolutely true. I have seen it time and time again on multiple visits to Europe.

"...the pleated denim shorts, the baseball cap, the T-shirt advertising a San Diego pizza restaurant. Sunglasses hung from his neck on a flourescent cable, and the couple's bright new his-and-her sneakers suggested they might be headed somewhere dressy for dinner.

Comfort has its place, but it seems rude to visit another country dressed as if you've come to mow its lawns."

From Me Talk Pretty One Day, by David Sedaris.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

49. whoo-hoo! Lets us know how it goes...

Thanks for doing the good P.R. for us and letting them know we're not ALL knuckleheads....

[CroixRoussienne]

77. French Culture

I really get a kick out of people who denigrate the French for being rude, or dirty, or ungrateful for their liberation by Allied troops. It's like tattooing a big L on one's forehead (because they can't fit the phrase "Too effing ignorant for words" on it).

Spend more than a week in France, and have the initiative to get off the tourist track for a day, and you will find them, as a rule, to be polite to a fault, patient, garrulous, and generally better educated than their Yankee counterparts. Indeed, one of the most endearing customs of this country is the standard greeting between friends, "Ca va?" (how's it going?), or "Bonjour!, in that singsong cadence that gives the language such a musical flavor. Stand in a neighborhood bar some morning, and watch the clientele - each person to walk through the door will search the place for familiar faces, and then greet each friend with the above phrase or some-such, shake their hand or give them a buss on each cheek, and exchange pleasantries while awaiting a café or verre de rouge.

Another French custom Americans could take a lesson from is the way they honor their dead soldiers. Take a break from the Louvre and the McDonalds on the Champs Elysée and walk in a Paris neighborhod - ANY neighborhood. If you are at all observant, you will find, as you walk, small plaques on buildings or walls, monuments of every size and description, about every 50 meters or so, each describing the death, with honor, of two thousand years worth of brave French soldiers:

"Mort du Honeur", or the moving inscription on the magnificent memorial "Le Valleur de Philippe" at Place Bellecour in Lyon: "Passant va Dire au Monde Qu'ils sont Mort Pour La Liberté" (Passers-by Go Tell the World They Died for Freedom).

Stick around long enough and there is a good chance you will eventually have a sixty-eight year old woman, in tears, give you a big hug and thank you profusely because your daddy fought in the USARMY.

People who think the French forget need to get out more. Kzoo, wear that shirt until it falls off - you'll get a great response.

[Obamarama]

79. Merci d'un message éloquent et précis !

Everything you say is absolutely true.

[BonjourUSA]

108. Thank you. But that's true, I REALLY HATE...

to be called upon by an American (or any else) with a loud "hey !!".

BUT "Bonjour, I'd like to go....".... And I'm ready to do the all-out efforts for trying to speak in English. And everybody knows here I am not fluent in this language

[GoneOffShore]

83. A couple of suggestions

Check out the Place des Vosges, near the Bastille. There's a great little bar near there called Bar de Jarente on the Place St. Catherine off of rue de Turenne. Excellent old style place.
Also there is a wonderful boulangerie called Levain du Marais on rue de Turenne. Best pain au chocolat I've ever had.
Avoid Ma Bourgogne on Place des Vosges, but do try Bofinger on rue de Bastille, (really rude maitre d', but obviously rude to everyone, even Parisians) and on your side of the river Rotisserie de Beaujolais on Quai de Tournelle, right near La Tour d'Argent. (run by the same company) Excellent food and great view of the Seine.
Near the Mouffetard there are two great shops - Tuile de Loup - sells pottery from all over France and Delices de Daubenton - kind of a deli. There's also a branch of Hediard very close to Daubenton.
We're going the day after the election - either as a celebration or commiseration. We're still going to be looking for an apartment there. That's where we're planning on retiring.

[EricL]

91. Hopefully most of my compatiots

don't confuse the american people with the current administration.

Michael Moore has been a great ambassador of the "buttered side of the croissant", your sweatshirt will be another.

As for the dirt, rudeness etc, my guess is that the percentage of stupid people in France is near the percentage in any other part of the world.

Enjoy your stay :hi:

[GoneOffShore]

93. Welcome to DU

:toast:

[BonjourUSA]

107. And the French dogs are learning the street gutters

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

100. Screw all the idiotic France bashers, subtle and otherwise, on this thread

I was in Paris this spring for a scientific conference. No one was rude, and I didn't see any dog poop, and the hygiene of the French people was fine.

Differences I did note:

1. Smoking is unfortunately much more prevalent than in the U.S.
2. Hugely obese people are hard to find, unlike in the U.S.
3. Food in general is much better and the restaurant experience is completely different (and better) than in the U.S. Eating a good meal in a restaurant is understood to be a significant social and sensual experience, not to be rushed. You can linger as long as you like over each course and are expected to savor and enjoy, drink wine, smoke (not me), chat with your friends, and get the next course when you are damn well ready. Of course the waiters don't get tipped either so they don't have THAT financial incentive.

[Cha]

101. Tres Magnifique!

I wore my Kerry/Edwards pin when I went to Canada over Labor Day weekend and got so many favorable comments And some had seen F9/11, too!

Have the Best Time!!

[Tracer]

103. KzooDem ... I enjoy Sedaris too. Here's another quote:

"My understanding was that, no matter how hard we tried, the French would never like us, and that's confusing to an American riased to believe that the citizens of Europe should be grateful for all the wonderful things we've done. Things like movies that stereotype the people of France as boors and petty snobs, and little remarks such as "We saved your ass in World War II".

"Every day we're told that we live in the greatest country on earth. And it's always stated as an undeniable fact ... Having grown up with this in our ears, it's startling to realize that other countries have nationalistic slogans of their own, none of which are 'We're number two!' "

[allalone]

105. hey not fair!

how come so many rude arrogant types get to go to Europe and I can't afford to. I'm nice and fit in everywhere. In fact, when I am traveling, people tend to ask me directions. So far I've been Canadian, Dutch and Irish along with midwestern. I must have universal looks. Hey I want to go!

[redpepper]

106. Thats a great idea,

probably be good for some interesting conversations.

[Neecy]

127. Laissez les bonnes temps roulez!

Isn't it a hoot how every thread here that mentions France brings an onslaught of low-number posters?

It's like they lay in wait, just ITCHING to act like asses and prove their ugly American hillbilly street creds to us with their erudite commentary, eg 'smelly', 'dirty', 'rude', etc.

We should post the date of our next France thread for them, to save DU the server hits as they scroll around in search of la patrie.

[Flagg]

140. Good call Neecy

I noticed that too.

[jdonaldball]

130. That's wrong! Al Gore is NOT an idiot!

My President, Al Gore, is not an idiot. :-)

[BonjourUSA]

134. More than 85% of the French population would agree to wear your sweatshirt

without the last part of it, because more less than 5% of them would have voted for your idiot president if they could have done it.

But in 2004 the real question is : How many American want definitively change of society by a Bush reelection ?

[Cha]

135. Okay! The French are smarter than the

Americans! But, you get the Real News and we are stuck with a treasonist, Greedy, propoganda, machine that is going to Spew themselves right into the abyss(I hope)!