We need to re-define the pro-choice debate

[cally]

We are losing too many voters on the abortion debate. Their rhetoric is winning IMHO. I think we need to change the argument into a debate about men's ability to have sex without making babies. It has to not be a women't issue, but a debate about whether you can have sex when you want. This is not about women's reproductive choice, but about men's reproductive choice.

[Jade Fox]

1. We need to ask the anti-choice people....

why they insist on advocating what will not end abortions: making them
illegal.

We need to ask them why they are not pressuring drug companies to come
up with better, safer, and easier forms of birth control.

We need to ask them why the don't support sex education for all young
people (include abstinance advocacy if you want).

We need to confront them on their true agenda: Trying to control people's
sex lives, particularly women's sex lives because who, after all, gets
pregnant?

[cally]

3. Oh, I agree

but as long as it's a women's issue then we will lose. We need to make it a men's issue as well.

[Blayde Starrfyre]

5. Good points

I think the pro-choice stance has got to change the perception that pro-choice = pro-abortion. Point out how the anti-sex education policies of the pro-lifers and the stigmatism they give to out of wedlock births, coupled with the refusal of the right wing to offer any kind of social programs, is causing more abortions. We want to decrease the need for abortions, but if it comes down to it, we do not support the un-American idea of laws restricting rights being solely grounded in religious principles.

In other words, it's not about supporting abortions, it's about not supporting failed social policies and Taliban-like religious control of the government.

[jean]

2. my catholic relatives say it is simple for them (and yes they are simple)

voting for a pro choice candidate means the voter participates in murder. Not kidding - this is their stance. And it's the only thing they base their vote on. This is what they think the church tells them.

[cally]

4. I'm going to ask what I asked my close male friends long ago

Do they have sex? Have they ever had sex before marriage? Were they willing to have a child every time they had sex? Do they want a worn out, tired wife who has a child every year? These are legitimate questions because birth control fails. So, every heterosexual encounter may create a fetus. What do they say then?

[K-W]

22. And the war in Iraq isnt murder? And poverty isnt murder?

Nothing is stranger than christians who know nothing about the teachings of christ. Christ didnt walk around preaching against abortion and birth control. He walked around preaching against hate, violence, revenge, alienation, poverty.

[jean]

35. what these three women do is saturate themselves in Fox news

and leave it at that. Plus, go to church very frequently - sometimes more than once per day.

They are willfully ignorant.

The other day I showed my mother in law how to get c-span. She sat there mesmerized for about two hours. (it was a panel of anti-Kerry people talking about whether Kerry should receive communion - I couldn't have gotten luckier)

We're hoping they'll expand their viewing universe at least to PBS Newshour and c-span.

I will expose them to pix of Iraq atrocities including children dead and maimed if it comes to that. Their fixation on abortion and stem cell research is a way of keeping their heads in the sand.

[K-W]

39. Get people outraged enough and they will stop thinking.

That might as well be the republican motto.

[cally]

6. kick

:kick:

[Malva Zebrina]

7. Religious beliefs hurt women and keep them second class

and historically, always have.

That women eagarly embrace the deterioration of the health of their sisters, is telling.

Women used to be expected, it is true, to have a child every year. Women were exhausted from ten or more pregnancies and no doubt died , statistically, at an early age.

These same women, who think they are voting against someone who kills a live, sometimes talking fetus,(according to some tracts I have seen) are the same ones who would prevent them from using birth control pills or other methods if they could. It is a self serving and selfish stance to take--for they are, according to their religious beliefs, out for their own salvation and good marks in the book of life and so won't go to hell if they condemn another woman to death.

Another thing they are doing is forcing the other children in the family , perhaps, three, four, five or maybe even six of them, to suffer want and deprivation because the arrival of a new mouth to feed must take something from the rest of them when the family is poor and the mother must work, as well as the father just to buy food and clothes and pay the rent.

This stance is not admirable;this is cruel.

These women do not realize it but they are under the repressive thumb of male heirophants, lots of them fat, supercilious bloviators, who actually fear women, their blood and their sexuality--They may express that it is their "place" according to the religion, being under that repressive thumb out of fear of not going to heaven or something like that.

They have willingly given up the rights to their own body and that says it all about their feelings of self esteem.

That is their choice, for themselves--forcing other women to adhere to their religious beliefs is beyond the pale.

[cally]

8. We have to figure out how to tone that message down to hit the

mainstream. I agree with you, but most women don't. That's my point. We have to figure out a way to persuade most men and women. I think it's hitting the men.

[Malva Zebrina]

11. It is , imo, up to the religion

as long as they keep women believing they are second class without a right to their own bodies, these women, who basically lack self esteem, will go on trying to force other women to comply with their religious beliefs because of their own paternalistic religious beliefs.

It has been that way for thousands of years in the traditions of religion.

I don't have an answer and I do not know if it needs to be toned down. I am not good at toning down stuff so that is not my area of expertise. :-) There are some who are better at it than myself.

The best way is the way of a secular law that must stand to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. We are supposedly assured of the right in this democracy.

We have that in RvW--and it still stands but being chipped away by religion and religious beliefs under the tutelage of men, both in the pulpit and in the congress.

If women insist upon following men who dictate to them about their own bodies, and if there is reward promised to them in the hereafter, they will follow that without ever thinking or attempting to think about what it is they really are doing to other women, in order to be assured of a good life after death.

Women have fallen back into the subservient mode it seems.The reward? I don't know except to connect it to religous beliefs and guilt laden dogma that puts them in a second class catagory.

Obviously the majority of them rely on birth control pills or we would still see women having ten or more children.

Many have also been led to believe that motherhood is a sort of sainthood. To me, it is a biological function that a woman's body is built for and has nothing about it that needs to be adored and praised simply becaue a woman becomes a mother and has birthed a child.

[cally]

12. I don't think it's religion but

religion used more as a way to gain power. It's hard to separate religion from government power and male power.

I think women who accept the male power and right to dictate their lives are just trying to get men interested in them. They are not OK being alone or just with female friends because they believe being attractive to men means they are powerful. Too many women accept the myth that they have to accept male domination to be attractive to both males and females. It's hard to go against societal norms.

[wickywom]

9. I think the anti- abortion concept should challenged

by forcing them to acknowledge that any Law made that infringes upon the health of any woman by setting limitations on any medical procedure damages all women and their right as an American to protect their own life.
And that we live in a free country and as long as they follow our laws they can attempt to persuade women from abortion to their hearts content..
they should be forced to answer their support of war profiteers ...
they should be forced to answer for their support of an administration willing to endanger the unborn of women who choose to carry full term by allowing mercury and arsenic levels to climb a the attrocities.
and on and on and on....

[cally]

10. YES

but we need to refine this position to soundbytes. I don't see it happening yet.

[Veggie Meathead]

13. As a man who has been happily married for over 30 years and the

father of seven children, I come to this debate with a unique personal experience.After we had our seventh child, my wife got pregnant again, and for some reason, we decided to terminate the pregnancy.This happened more than fifteen years ago and to this day my wife and I have regretted this decisionbecause of the way all our children have turned out. Some nights I can hear my wife cry under the sheets and we spend time talking about what our "missing" child would be like if we had had her.

I am relating this only to show that just like us there may be many who reach their own individual decisions and we should respect everybody's right to make that decision. It would be very hard for me to not sympathize with a young girl who decides to terminate her pregnancy when she herself is no more than a child.

I would say one thing though.The spiritual and emotional scars linger on.

[LisaLynne]

14. My take

First of all, I would like to say that this is a really intelligent and heartening thread. I am so impressed with all of you and would love to see this discussion continue. I think it's absolutely neccessary.

Now, to Veggie, I am not at all questioning your wife's experience, but as you said, everyone must reach their own decisions. I have often heard these stories, but the fact is, not all women do experience "spiritual and emotional scars" as you indicate with your last line.

So, I'm going to share my own experiences. I have several very good friends who, for their own, unique reasons, terminated pregnancies years ago. Some have children now, some don't. None have regrets. They made their decision and are at peace with it. The thing I feel makes them so comfortable with their choices is that they had options, information, and support available and it was a very considered, reasoned choice that ended up being right for each of them.

[wickywom]

18. I know three women who

all would still have terminated ,but two still cry about it and one can't even talk about it . They would defiantly have opted for the morning after pill if it had been available to them at the time.
The religious fantics want to take away ALL of our choices not just abortion.
They don't even want to educate young people about birthcontrol.. if we don't claim abortion issue as our moral issue as well and push harder for logical answers to free women from having to make that choice unless of course it's medically neccesary but not because a law was changed to demand it. Their enemies- science and education we could lose out on all of it.

[LisaLynne]

21. Right!

And I agree that there is some pressure to never admit that some women continue to have some doubts about their decision or, if not doubt, at least heavy emotions about the decision. It's a big decision, no matter what you finally decide. I do get nervous around people who suggest that ALL women feel one way or the other. It's different for everyone.

And that's why it needs to be discussed! And honestly, you guys have so many interesting insights! Again, it just makes me feel good to think that people can actually have CONVERSATIONS about this without just screaming their positions and walking away.

[wickywom]

15. thanks for sharing.

i tried to point to possible negative affects of abortion here before and it was not well received--
Some people remain wholly convinced most women have no long lasting regrets or depression and if they do it's because of social pressures placed on them...I think some women are just as pressured to not express pain over an abortion for fear it will be misunderstood as support for anti-abortionists to try and change the law...
either way the discussion becomes stymied -- that helps no one.

[Hello_Kitty]

17. You know what?

What's great about this is that we DISCUSS the issue, albeit sometimes heatedly. There's no diversity of opinion allowed on this and many other areas in Freeperland. Some liberals have ambivalence about abortion, some don't. We don't have to subscribe to some monolithic social ideology to belong here. And that's great.

[lostnfound]

20. I agree, but I wonder if our politicians aren't allowed such diversity.

And I wonder whether a candidate with a position that was more anti-abortion than the typical Democratic candidate would pick up much of the vote from the many single-issue voters. The Catholic vote used to be mainly Democratic, now it is split.

[cally]

23. DEMOCRATS ARE ANTI_ABORTION

This issue is so mis-understood. Dems are anti-abortion but pro-choice. These issues are worlds apart. It's a difference between letting women decide vs. state control. It's all about control of the government/religiously powerful.

[Cheswick2.0]

25. some democrats are anti-abortion

I am not anti-abortion. It is the best choice for many women.

[cally]

27. Sorry, I know better

I was just infuriated about how so many frame the debate. I'm for abortion in many circumstances because it's the right decision. I promote better pre-natal care, better birth control ed, better information. I never meant to imply that I'm against abortion..I'm not.

[Cheswick2.0]

32. I know Cally

I just thought it was a slip of the tongue (keyboard) on your part.

[lostnfound]

28. I thought about saying 'pro-life'..instead of 'anti-abortion'..

because I think that generally speaking a movement ought to be allowed to name itself, within reason. But sometimes when you say 'pro-life' here, people complain that you really should call them 'anti-choice', and I don't think the 'anti-choice' label is really fair, either. I thought 'anti-abortion' was fairly neutral!

Uggh. I give up.

[cally]

30. Why is anti-choice an unfair label?

If you and I sat down and designed a public policy to reduce abortions, we would not design the current Republican platform. I don't think, rather I know, none of us will eliminate abortion so the question is how do we reduce it. Forget that, how to bring children into this world with loving homes where we can bring them to grace ( yeah, I used that word purposefully). Better yet, how do we accept sex and reproduction into Christian values. We've failed completely. The debate about abortion is also the debate about female sexuality and control over their reproduction.

[Cheswick2.0]

33. anti choice is the correct lable

you either agree with people making their own choice or you don't.

[cally]

16. I completely agree

I thank God I never made this decision. I would have many times in my life but I was lucky. Birth control worked or just dumb luck a few times. As someone who had difficult pregnancies and deliveries, I don't believe anyone should be forced to carry a child. More important, raising a child is just plain hard. I want a society that focuses on raising children well. Part of that is making birth control available, informing all of us, and yes, allowing abortion even if I might not choose it for myself.

[Cheswick2.0]

24. If you had her?

Did they tell you the sex of the fetus? Or did you just decide it was a girl for the sake of conversing about it?

I am sorry you are still mourning that decision. Maybe for your wifes sake you should both remember the reasons you made the decision and why it was the right thing to do at the time.
Then tell youselves that little soul was born to another family, one who had the time, energy and resources to care for it and needed it way more than you did.

[Djinn]

31. For you and your wife

"he spiritual and emotional scars linger on."

plenty of women have abortions and do not come away with any emotional scars.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. agreed

Let's start talking involuntary sterilization. If men save their sperm and freeze it, women will no longer get pregnant except on purpose.

[Bozvotros]

26. Repugs seem to be having the best of this debate but...

there are angles we need to work in more often. I posted the following in an earlier thread today.

"What the Dems need to do is to ask every anti-abortion repug how they plan to pay for the medical and social costs of all these sacred unwanted fetuses they plan to drag into their world of unfunded social programs and bankrupted state medicaid programs. Many aborted fetuses have medical problems that could cost millions to treat.

Pointing out just how completely hypocritical it is to be "prolife while simultaneously gutting social safety nets for children and families, might shut their yammering sanctimonious pie holes. Someone needs to do a social and financial cost analysis of ending abortion and send it to the RNC for their comments and plans.

Repugs don't want and will never allow abortion to be illegal for just this reason but they can pretend to be for it and that seems to be enough for the faithful sheep.

I think the republican advantage in this issue could be minimized if we made a bit more room for pro-life candidates who tied their position to firm positions on contraceptive education and choice (including the "day after pill") exceptions for rape, incest and catastrophic health issues of the mother and fetus, and most importantly universal health care. JMHO...

[ChipperbackDemocrat]

29. To Hell With The Pro-Strife Movement

I find these Pro-Strife people laughable, especially when you call them on the clinic bombings, killing people, those thugs like Randall Terry, and those Christian Jihadist like Jerry Falwell (supporter of Apartheid), and Pat Robertson (started a defense fund for two convicted clinic bombers).

The Pro-Life movement to me is hypocritical to the core. These people are so darn concerned about a child in the womb...BUT

These folks support cuts in education. Cuts in public health and neonatal care to low-income and rural communities. They support cuts to afterschool and recreational programs, etc.

These folks opposed family leave. They opposed tax credits for day care.


The Pro-Strife Movement: We'll fight for them to be born, then abort them after they are born.

[curse10]

34. That's an interesting idea

Since it's pretty obvious that most of the American public doesn't give a rat's ass about women's issues. If we change the tone of the debate it might make a dent. :shrug:

[Yupster]

36. Are you proposing that a man

should have reproductive choice whether a fetus he's the sperm contributor to is aborted or not?

[Eloriel]

37. Bullshit

And that's as much of a response as I think this OP deserves. Sorry, but just, plain BULLSHIT.

[grace0418]

38. Yeah, how about

it's nobody's fucking business. I guess that wouldn't go over too well, huh?

[T Town Jake]

40. Oh hell no...and no, and no, and no...

...the kind of approach you're advocating comes off like some kind of Victorian Era Freeper-talk about "morality," "abstinence," and "sexual restraint."
The bottom line on this issue should be: Leave it up to the women facing that choice. Period, end of sentence.

[REP]

41. This Is Satire, Right?

Because no sane person would ever frame the reproductive rights argument as a man's right to choose whether a woman gives birth or not. That position is already taken by the Republicans and pro-liars.