Is there any real evidence that Bush actually flew a plane in ANG? I find

[KoKo]

it hard to believe that he completed training as a "fighter pilot" and yet there hasn't been one story of him every wanting to fly a plane again.

Most folks who have flown their own planes, never get it out of their system and will do whatever it takes to keep flying. Surely Chimp with all his money would have bought his own Cessna or something to fly around Texas in those years when he was running Arbusto and then with the Texas Rangers.

I think the Chimp was scared stiff of flying and that had alot to do with his wanting to get away from "those planes." Maybe being drunk and doing coke was his way of escaping from the only service his Poppy could get him into at the time.

Where are his records of actually being seen flying and completing the training necessary. Did he ever fly alone? Or, was it all a report by a pressured ANG Flight Trainer who put his training hours down and allowed him to be certified without ever flying solo? :shrug:

Does Chimp really look like a guy who would enjoy flying his own plane alone, to anyone??

[wuushew]

1. actually the F-102 that he flew was highly automated

basically a computer flew the plane to the best firing position and the pilot would then launch a missile at the target. Absolutely nothing like top gun.

Still if he had the ability to land a delta wing fighter on the long sunny runways of Texas then he must have had at least some basic motor-skills.

[Luis Cyphier]

24. F-102

You are incorrect the f-102 was not highly automated, The pilot would be directed to the optimum intercept position by ground controllers just like they are by now by an AWACS. The pilot would then execute the intercept. All the information is readily available on the web so making statements like that just tends to make people think we are ignorant.

[Luis Cyphier]

27. F-102

POLITICS: The F-102
While we're in the pre-convention lull - and I assure you, faithful readers, that by next week I'll be back on the issues as far as political coverage goes - it's worth remembering what a fraud many of the attacks on President Bush's National Guard service have been. The Donovan pointed recently to an essay on Aerospaceweb.org (with useful, and let's face it, really cool pictures) on the F-102, Bush's aircraft, and on his service record. A few key excerpts (but make sure to go there and read the whole thing) :


Even in peacetime conditions, F-102 pilots risked their lives on every flight. Only highly-qualified pilot candidates were accepted for Delta Dagger training because it was such a challenging aircraft to fly and left little room for mistakes. According to the Air Force Safety Center, the lifetime Class A accident rate for the F-102 was 13.69 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours, much higher than the average for today's combat aircraft. For example, the F-16 has an accident rate of 4.14, the F-15 is at 2.47, the F-117 at 4.07, the S-3 at 2.6, and the F-18 at 4.9. Even the Marine Corps' AV-8B, regarded as the most dangerous aircraft in US service today, has a lifetime accident rate of only 11.44 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours. The F-102 claimed the lives of many pilots, including a number stationed at Ellington during Bush's tenure. Of the 875 F-102A production models that entered service, 259 were lost in accidents that killed 70 Air Force and ANG pilots.

***

ilots from the 147th FIG of the Texas ANG were routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970. Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe or southeast Asia for periods of three to six months for frontline duty. Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time, told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants.

***


After being accepted into the ANG, Airman Basic Bush was selected to attend pilot training. His six weeks of basic training was completed at Lackland AFB in Texas during July and August of 1968. Upon its completion, Bush was promoted to the officer's rank of second lieutenant. He spent the next year in flight school at Moody AFB in Georgia from November 1968 to November 1969. The aircraft Lt. Bush trained aboard were the T-41 Mescelero propeller-driven basic trainer and the T-38 Talon primary jet trainer. He also completed two weeks of survival training during this period.


Bush then returned to Ellington in Texas to complete seven months of combat crew training on the F-102 from December 1969 to June 1970. This period included five weeks of training on the T-33 Shooting Star and 16 weeks aboard the TF-102 Delta Dagger two-seat trainer and finally the single-seat F-102A. Bush graduated from the training program in June 1970.

***


As he was completing training and being certified as a qualified F-102 pilot, Bush's squadron was a likely candidate to be rotated to Vietnam. However, the F-102 was built for a type of air combat that wasn't seen during that conflict, and the plane was withdrawn from southeast Asia in December 1969. The F-102 was instead returned to its primary role of providing air defense for the United States. In addition, the mission of Ellington AFB, where Bush was stationed, was also changing from air defense alert to training all F-102 pilots in the US for Air National Guard duty. Lt. Bush remained in the ANG as a certified F-102 pilot who participated in frequent drills and alerts through April of 1972.

By this time, the 147th Fighter Wing was also beginning to transition from the F-102 to the F-101F, an updated version of the F-101B used primarily for air defense patrols. Furthermore, the war in Vietnam was nearing its end and the US was withdrawing its forces from the theater. Air Force personnel returning to the US created a glut of active-duty pilots, and there were not enough aircraft available to accommodate all of the qualified USAF and ANG pilots. Since USAF personnel had priority for the billets available, many of the Air National Guard pilots whose enlistments were nearly complete requested early release. The ANG was eager to fulfill these requests because there was not enough time to retrain F-102 pilots to operate new aircraft before their enlistments were up anyway. Bush was one of those forced out by the transition, and he was honorably discharged as a first lieutenant in October 1973, eight months before his six-year enlistment was complete. Bush had approximately 600 flight hours by the time he completed his military service. In the fall of 1973, Bush began coursework at the Harvard Business School where he received an MBA in 1975

[Spazito]

30. Here is another link you might find interesting and contains...

a GREAT deal of documentation that negates the polished up version that you have provided:

http://www.glcq.com/bush_at_arpc1.htm#_THE_RECORDS_OF

[Luis Cyphier]

35. Pilot

How this relevant to his abilities while flying the F-102 somehow escapes me. Perhaps you could find something on point? Please see original post. I will review your link and comment as soon as I have time if you wish to change the subject.

[Luis Cyphier]

36. Just a quick review

I was in the US navy for six years and during that time I was TDY (Temporary Duty) to Mare Island Naval Shipyard as a Petty officer in charge if barge preparation for our upcoming overhaul. During that time I received an evaluation from the Executive Officer that I was not observed for that period due to my being TDY and he received much the same response from BUSHIPS (Bureau of Ships), (we referred to them as paperwork weenie's). It was promptly ignored and a note was inserted in my record by the XO saying since that I was in charge of the small independently assigned unit no specific observations were made. This is not unusual in the US armed forces where personal responsibility is expected and one is given the responsibility that one earns. I guess it's not the same in Canada huh.

[Luis Cyphier]

37. Invalid assumption

ARPC told TXANG that an “AF Fm 77a should be requested from the training unit so that this officer can be rated”. TXANG did not do so. Instead, it told ARPC that Bush could not be rated for an entire year, and that the required training report for an entire year would not be forthcoming “for administrative reasons.”



In essence, TXANG told ARPC that Bush had been AWOL for an entire year.

One cannot infer the second statement from the first. Inaction by one person group IE.(the required training report for an entire year would not be forthcoming “for administrative reasons.”) can hardly be held against the individual. How can you assume that because they didn't want to go to the trouble of requesting an "AF Fm 77a" that they said Bush was AWOL is quite the logic jump. I guess if the clerk at the IRS or Inland Revenue decides not to process your tax return your a Tax dodger huh. The logic is the same. If the rest of this is as solid may I suggest a new source?

[Luis Cyphier]

38. More stuff

That Bush was considered AWOL is confirmed by the fact that under Federal law, as a commissioned officer Bush could not be “dismissed” from the Armed Forces unless he was either court-martialed, or had been determined to be AWOL for at least three months. Because Bush could only be placed on inactive status if he was being “completely severed from military status”, it would have been impossible under US Statutory Law for ARPC to change Bush’s status to “Inactive” if Bush had not considered AWOL.

Bush was TDY to another unit. His commanding officer new where he was an where he was supposed to report for duty. If he was AWOL trust someone who has seen what happens when people go AWOL, his commanding officer would have set the dogs and the local police on him. He would have had to go to Canada. Besides if Bush really didn't want to play anymore he could just resign his commission. He was an officer you know. By November of 73 what would he have to lose if he was considering going AWOL. I personally saw a couple of ROTC officers resign their commissions prior to their obligation being completed. It wasn't pretty but it can be done. It's not like being enlisted you know or maybe you don't. Shall I go on dissecting this thing or do you want find a better source.

[Luis Cyphier]

39. Flying Status

All members of the Air Force whose jobs required “flight status” were required to get a physical examination each year within three months prior to their birthday.

The key words here are “flight status”. A pilot is not on flight status if he has nothing to fly. His commanding officer determines who is on flight status. They had no planes for him to fly in Alabama so he was not on “flight status”. This happens to Navy pilots all the time. They will be assigned to a non "flight status” billet like to the Pentagon in DC. They are required to get a physical prior to returning to flight status and if to much time has gone by they will be required to do a check ride (this is now usually done in a simulator but back then if an F-102a wasn't available then you at least get a walk/talkthrough with a qualified and "CURRENT" pilot. I have a private pilot liscense but I am not current. This means I have to get an FAA physical and a check ride proir to my being back to “flight status”. Need I go on and on.

[Julien Sorel]

41. I'm sure you'll be pushing daisies by the time (if) you read this, but...

Even in peacetime conditions, F-102 pilots risked their lives on every flight. Only highly-qualified pilot candidates were accepted for Delta Dagger training because it was such a challenging aircraft to fly and left little room for mistakes. According to the Air Force Safety Center, the lifetime Class A accident rate for the F-102 was 13.69 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours, much higher than the average for today's combat aircraft. For example, the F-16 has an accident rate of 4.14, the F-15 is at 2.47, the F-117 at 4.07, the S-3 at 2.6, and the F-18 at 4.9. Even the Marine Corps' AV-8B, regarded as the most dangerous aircraft in US service today, has a lifetime accident rate of only 11.44 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours. The F-102 claimed the lives of many pilots, including a number stationed at Ellington during Bush's tenure. Of the 875 F-102A production models that entered service, 259 were lost in accidents that killed 70 Air Force and ANG pilots.

Why are you comparing the safety record of a plane using 20 year old technology, to that of state-of-the-art aircraft? It seems to be a little, well, dishonest. A more honest (get used to seeing that word, maybe even learn what it means) comparison would be to other aircraft of about the same age as the F 102. Since you doubtless lack the intellect to do that, I'll do it for you:


F-4: 4.64
F-5: 8.82
F-106: 9.47
F-102: 13.69
F-101: 14.65
F-105: 17.83
F-100: 21.22
F-89: 24.54
F-104: 30.63
F-86: 44.18
F-84: 52.86

Notice where the F-102 ends up among its more realistic cohort: near the top in safety performance. Granted, some of these are actually older technologies than the F-102, but the F-100 Super Sabre, which first flew in 1953, is obviously a much more apt comparison to the F-102 (first flight in 1954), than the ludicrous comparison to, say the safety record of the F-15 Eagle (first flight in 1972) that you had the smug gall to cut and paste here.

Flying any kind of jet certainly entails risk, but nowhere near the kind of risk people who actually went to Vietnam undertook. Kerry got shot at, and saved the lives of people being shot at. Bush sat at home in Texas fighting a losing battle against drunkenness. You'll just have to accept my apologies for not being impressed with the "dangers" of Bush's flight duties, especially considering that he ended up shirking them and going AWOL.


Bye now

[SoCalDem]

2. He flew a small private plane after he "got out" of the ANG

and barely got it off the ground, flew it poorly, and almost crashed it. The guy who was with him, said he thought they would all die that day..and never flew with him again.. Someone must have the link.. I had it saved in DU 1 and am too lazy to look.. (search does not work there any more)

[Lisa]

4. see www.dubyaspeak.com

In the "incidents" section -- they have excerpts plus the whole article on Dubya's near-accident with the Cessna.

[KoKo]

10. Thanks for the link....makes me believe even more he never flew the ANG

plane...and that it was lied about, even though the first poster said it was all "automatic controls." How did he ever land it if he couldn't do it in the Cessna...must have needed alot of booze to give him the courage.

[KoKo]

9. Thanks, SoCal.....I must have missed that one. I guess he learned enough

to "show off" but not enough to be capable...so that folks ran away from him when he wanted to show off his "flying skills." ROFL...

[grasswire]

3. USA Today...

...says that sometime in April of 71 he started flying the two-seated training planes because he was having trouble landing the one-seated F102. It would require several passes before he could put it on the ground.

Ask your flying friends why that would be. Would it be fear that would cause someone to be unable to land all of a sudden? What would cause it?

[Lisa]

7. well, one friend of mine gave up flying after a near-accident ...

She said that the trauma was affecting her ability to make quick decisions in the cockpit.

Significantly, the only other people I know who've stopped flying planes have done so because their doctors grounded them (heart problems, losing an eye, etc.). Even the ones who can't afford to keep a private plane at present are hoping to get back to it in the future. Maybe Dubya got bored with the whole thing? He does have a very short attention span. But if so, he'd be the first who just quit like that.

I heard a rumor that Bush crashed a Guard plane -- could it be based on him just damaging it with a bad landing or something?

[dogtag]

5. Conversely, John Kerry enjoys being a pilot,

and has a commercial license. In addition to kite surfing, motorcycling, powerboating, long distance cycling, skiing and snowboarding, he also plays league ice hockey. But he's a girlie man and the shrub is described as athletic. Go figure. http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/062103b.shtml

I don't have the link, but Poppy described Junior's TANG plane as 'frightening' and those were most likely Junior's words. It's in Poppy's book of lies.

Personally, I think shrubby is scared shitless of most 'manly' pursuits, including an irrational fear of horses. I've noticed that with each campaign stop he tries harder and harder to be butchy. Any day now he can join the Village People.

[Lisa]

8. I wouldn't go up in a plane if Bush were flying it ...

The man's got a poor track record with vehicles. Even without that Cessna incident, he's slammed into stuff with his car (garage wall, garbage cans, etc.) that could easily have been avoided -- and his own sister says that he can't sail the family boat very well (Neil is reportedly better at it). Plus, he's played tricks like shutting off the plane's engine -- when his little brother and some of those Houston kids were on board.

[crickets]

23. The contrast is stark

- and telling. Thanks for the link!

[SoCalDem]

6. found it

Bush really flying in a Cessna 172 in 1976:
NOT LONG AFTER Reisner's delicate trip to Midland, Bush banged on the door of Susie and Don Evans on an otherwise placid Sunday afternoon and suggested to Don that they head out to the airport and spend a few bucks for a spin over the desiccated Permian Basin in a single-engine Cessna. Susie Evans, who had gone to elementary school with Bush, was a longtime Midland presence, and when she had been dating her future husband in Houston, she had frequently stayed at the Bush house. She had moved back to Midland, and after she had heard that Bush was back in town, she and her husband had frequently invited him over.

Her husband Don Evans... Willard... was a short, fastidious, narrow-faced oilman in his early thirties who was poised to assume control of the Tom Brown Company, one of the legendary older names in the West Texas patch. Bush had begun spending more time at the Evanses' apartment in the Windsor Courts, drinking cocktails with them and leaving his laundry for Susie to do. Bush liked Evans's politics, he liked that they were about the same age and that both of them had recent MBAs. He liked the fact that Evans's old man had landed on the beach at Normandy during World War II.

Evans said he'd love to go flying. At the airport he watched Bush stare at the controls, at the panel, and he realized that Bush-though not admitting it-had no idea how to fly the thing properly. After finally figuring out how to launch the plane, Bush pushed the Cessna hard down the runway. Evans screamed, "Give it some gas!" The Cessna's warning system was blinking and crackling. Bush tried to lift his craft fast, almost as if he were piloting a jet back in the Texas Air National Guard. The plane wobbled into the air, and the unsubtle maneuvering threatened to shove it into a stall. Now the rented plane was rattling in the sky over Midland

The endless petrochemical complexes, all the aluminum and steel and smoke stacks that pockmark the Permian Basin, were spiking up just below the aircraft. Bush nervously turned to Evans, put his hand on his knee and blurted in his self-mocking West Texas way, "Okay, Evvie, I’ve got it under control."

After more seemingly endless moments, he somehow got control of the plane again. He aimed the aircraft down, and the landing was as shaky and brutal as the takeoff. The plane careened off the runway and onto the desert. Evans sighed in relief. Then an unbelieving Evans braced himself as Bush suddenly and unexpectedly spun the plane and bounced back along the runway. Evans stared at Bush. He could see the fear and panic flooding his face. Bush pressed on. Evans had no idea why Bush wanted to go again. The plane wobbled uncertainly back into the West Texas skies, and Bush turned to Evans. "Hey," said Bush airily, as if he had just had an original, amusing idea, "let's fly around Midland."

The men began cracking up. Bush brought the Cessna back to the airport. It was the last time he flew a plane. Evans would be one of the three people at Bush's side in almost every public venture for the twenty-three years.

Minutaglio pg 175&176

[KoKo]

11. OMG, So Cal... He could see the fear and panic flooding his face....

"He could see the fear and panic flooding his face. Bush pressed on. Evans had no idea why Bush wanted to go again."

Your excerpt shows why Bush runs the country the way he does...From the Booker School where the fear and panic is flooding his face to Afghanistan and onto Iraq and tearing the world apart.

"Let's do it again! the Chimp screams in delight!"

ROFL ...this excerpt is too much! Still, one wonders why Don Evans was
at his side for 23 years after that..I, personally, would have avoided being around someone who put me through that...but I guess that's the old "Texas Wildcatter" mentality... :scared:

[TeeYiYi]

14. OH...MY...GAWD . . .

. . . that story made me physically ill. It gave me a scared stomach ache. I feel like lighting up . . . something . . . I don't care what. And I haven't smoked in years. Aaarghhh.:scared: Unfuckingbelievable.

"The men began cracking up." Yeah, cracking up like they didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Cracking up like people who laugh at funerals. "Any extreme emotion can make people laugh, which is sometimes why we laugh in what are considered socially inappropriate moments (like funerals or car accidents)." http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f02/web2/mscottweathers.html

TYY *YIKES*:eyes:

_{Thanks SoCalDem. I'd never read that before. I don't think I'll ever read it again.}:hi:

[troublemaker]

19. Amazing story. Thank you! Post it as it's own thread some time

[vogonity]

12. Bush flying planes

Bush flying planes was always the thing that bothered me about his obvious stupidity. I always said to myself, "he flew fighters, you gotta have some smarts to fly a military jet." That would just be the icing on the cake if he never was able to actually fly the plane by himself.


GWB-- Worst President in American History. Period.

[Luis Cyphier]

25. Flying Planes

There is no doubt he flew the F-102 successfully. The flight military flight schools are well documented and they don't suffer those who can't cut it. Do a little research before demonstrating you ignorance.

[KoKo]

13. Reading through info from SoCal's post I'm convinced Bush Didn't FlySolo

Bush Service Time Line

May 28, 1968: Bush enlists as an Airman Basic in the 147th Fighter-Interceptor Group, Ellington Air Force Base, Houston, and is selected to attend pilot training.

July 12, 1968: A three-member board of officers decides that Bush should get a direct commission as a second lieutenant after competing airman's basic training.

July 14 to Aug. 25, 1968: Bush attends six weeks of basic training at Lackland Air Force Base, Texas.

Sept. 4, 1968: Bush is commissioned a second lieutenant and takes an 8-week leave to work on a Senate campaign in Florida.

Nov. 25, 1968 to Nov. 28, 1969: Bush attends and graduates from flight school at Moody Air Force Base, Georgia. (UTP Course #P-V4A-A Moody AFB, Ga. 53 weeks November 1969)

January 1,1970 147th changes from doing Alerts to training F-102 pilots.

December 1969 to June 27, 1970: Bush trains full-time to be an F-102 pilot at Ellington Air Force Base.

Febuary 1970 Bush attends Preint Pilot Training (T-33 ANG112501 5 weeks )

June 1970 his records are not clear his computer records show RGRAD NAV TNG but his Discharge shows F102 Intcp Pilot Training (F102 ANG1125D 16 weeks). His Military Biography shows: Professional Military Education: Basic Military Training, Undergraduate Pilot Training and nothing else.

Here is his total Service

July 1970 to April 16, 1972: Bush, as a certified fighter pilot, attends frequent drills and alerts at Ellington.

Computer records show last Physical as May 1971. Which also shows him as CR MEM ON FS (crew member on flight service) not PILOT.

During his fifth year as a guardsman, Bush's records show no sign he appeared for duty.

May 24, 1972: Bush, who has moved to Alabama to work on a US Senate race, gets permission to serve with a reserve unit in Alabama. But headquarters decided Bush must serve with a more active unit.

Sept. 5, 1972: Bush is granted permission to do his Guard duty at the 187th Tactical Recon Group in Montgomery. But Bush's record shows no evidence he did the duty, and the unit commander says he never showed up.

November 1972 to April 30, 1973: Bush returns to Houston, but apparently not to his Air Force unit.

May 2, 1973: The two lieutenant colonels in charge of Bush's unit in Houston cannot rate him for the prior 12 months, saying he has not been at the unit in that period.

May to July 1973: Bush, after special orders are issued for him to report for duty, logs 36 days of duty.

July 30, 1973: His last day in uniform, according to his records.

Oct. 1, 1973: A month after Bush starts at Harvard Business School, he is formally discharged from the Texas Air National Guard -- eight months before his six-year term expires.
Data drop from White House: pdfs from USAToday site

4-Performance Grades are missing

There is much in Bush's records to think about.

The main thing that gets me is; as a pilot he could have been anywhere in the US and been able to get a ride back to Houston for his weekend duty. Even non- pilots could do it by flying standby on MATS. But W didn't do it. He had to get a transfer to a unit in Alabama. Missing his physical took him to a non-flying status, but even that wouldn't have stopped him from riding a back seat in a T-33 going home for duty.

He missed all his physicals after May 1971, so he couldn't have kept his "pilot" rating, but that is the MOS on his discharge. What did he do as a non-pilot in the Guard? If he didn't miss the physicals, then they should be in his record. They aren't.

That is the crux of his duty in the Air Guard.

The link to this info from "SoCalDem" 's post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2348219#2348766

[Luis Cyphier]

26. Solo

The F-102 was a single seat fighter only about 63 of the approximately 1000 built were TF-102A dual seat trainer. In order to be qualified to pilot a plane one MUST solo successfully.

[SoCalDem]

15. googled "Lt George W. Bush" and found this...odd to say the least

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:RUlC44M65hUJ:discuss.agonist.org/yabbse/index.php%3Fboard%3D3%3Baction%3Ddisplay%3Bthreadid%3D17106+%22Lt+George+W+Bush%22+%2B+crash+&hl=en
about 1/4 of the way down...

snip

Putting other rumors to rest was easier for the former airmen, though all confess to being staunch Republican friends and supporters of Bush.


Did Bush duck his duty in Texas?

"I don't know about Alabama, because I wasn't there," said former Staff Sgt. Dan Liles, who was in Bush's Texas unit. "But I know he was at every meeting at Ellington, because I used to strap him in his F-102 and send him off."

Both men were assigned to the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group at Ellington Air Force Base (now Ellington Field) in Houston.

"I was the guy who did the safety walk around, put him up the ladder, made sure he was strapped in," Liles said in an exclusive WorldNetDaily interview. "And I'd always make sure he'd pull his ejection pin, because he'd forget that sometimes. You have to pull the pin out so you can eject. I'd say, 'Lieutenant, show me your pin.' I remember it very clearly."

Liles, who served from 1968 to 1974, says his recollection of Bush is less clear from the point the young officer transferred to Alabama in 1972. Bush, who also started his service in 1968, cleared out of Ellington Field on May 15, 1972. Bush's commanders at Ellington have said they couldn't recall him coming back from Alabama at all. (In fact, an evaluation report says Bush wasn't observed there from May 1, 1972, to April 30, 1973.)

But his old roommate and fellow pilot – ret. Maj. Dean A. Roome – does recall Bush returning to the base, though he can't narrow down the month. "I do remember him coming back and being out there awhile and pulling some duty," he told WorldNetDaily. "I can't remember talking to him about Alabama. He did his annual training to get in his points for the year, but as a non-flier."

Pressed for details, Roome was less certain.

"I kind of think he worked around the ops counter to help the supervisor of flying out," he said. "He definitely would have worked in operations, because he was assigned to operations."

snip

[KoKo]

20. This guy says he strapped him in and made him pull his ejection pin...

which sounds like he was still in training, but then at the end of the article Roome says he did his annual training for the year,"but as a non-flier." what kind of training would he do as a "non-flyer" to make his points? :shrug:

[crickets]

22. Unreal

"And I'd always make sure he'd pull his ejection pin, because he'd forget that sometimes. You have to pull the pin out so you can eject."

If W couldn't remember the ejection pin, could he be trusted to remember all of the other complex tasks involved in flying an airplane, any airplane, much less a military jet?

"I used to strap him in his F-102 and send him off."

Does anyone else think Liles sounds like yet another Bush babysitter? :eyes:

[TahitiNut]

31. "Bush babysitter?" Yup ...

,,, and although I'm no pilot, I don't know of any decent ones that wouldn't do their own walk-around inspection of the plane. Even for every commercial flight I've ever taken first thing in the morning, I'd see the pilot do a walk-around. Hell, I do it habitually for my car. I remember when I was a young man first living "on my own" and I got groggily (my normal morning condition in those days) into my car to take off in the morning. I put it in reverse and it didn't move. As I was just about to press harder on the accelerator, I stopped and though I'd better get out and look. Lo' and behold, someone had stolen the front wheels and the front end was up on cinder blocks. If I'd pressed on the accelerator, I'd have far greater damage than just two wheels stolen.

I'm pretty sure DimSon just gets in and hits the accelerator. No sense; no brains.

He sure has run the "ship of state" aground.

[crickets]

34. uh-huh

"I don't know of any decent ones that wouldn't do their own walk-around inspection of the plane. Even for every commercial flight I've ever taken first thing in the morning, I'd see the pilot do a walk-around."

Commercial pilots are required to do this AFAIK. It seems logical that military pilots would be. Are there any military pilots out there who could kindly clarify?

The car walk-around is a good idea. I used to do this almost by default when I lived in LA and tended to park in lots which gave me a good view before I got in the car. Since I moved to a rural area, I haven't bothered, though I think I ought to get back in the habit. Ouch, sorry about your front wheels.

"He sure has run the 'ship of state' aground."

No kidding.

[SoCalDem]

16. more

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:YVy92xT1BJsJ:www.blogd.com/archives/cat_bush_and_character.html+ellington+afb+incidents+1972&hl=en


scroll to Feb 25, 04

[SoCalDem]

17. more

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:YVy92xT1BJsJ:www.blogd.com/archives/cat_bush_and_character.html+ellington+afb+incidents+1972&hl=en


scroll to Feb 05, 04

[SoCalDem]

18. From the San Angelo Times

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:i9XnHux7DUUJ:www.sanangelostandardtimes.com/sast/home/article/0,1897,SAST_4943_3172667,00.html+air+force+incidents+1972&hl=en
snip
The first four months of 1972 are at the beginning of a controversial period in Bush's Guard service. After taking his last flight in April 1972, Bush went for six months without showing up for any training drills. In September 1972 he received permission to transfer to an Alabama Guard unit so he could work on a political campaign there.

That May, Bush also skipped a required yearly medical examination. In response, his commanders grounded Bush on Aug. 1, 1972.

Bush's pilot logs showed regular training in the F-102A until Feb. 9, 1972, when he flew 1.4 hours as the pilot of a T-33. After seven more flights in the F-102A, Bush made eight more T-33 flights between March 9 and March 15, including the four as co-pilot.

He flew an F-102A on March 12 and eight more times in April 1972.

[KoKo]

21. So they ga ve him a plane to train on and fly that they knew would be

obsolete and never used in Vietnam. Was that because they could afford to lose it, (in case he crashed it) or because they didn't take him seriously enough as potential pilot material to bother with training him on the newest model.

And, the reports seem to have some big gaps in time when he was available to train at all...with the clincher being this article which says he barely flew enough to qualify for anything.

It seems possible that he never flew alone because they didn't trust him and they covered it up, since so much else was covered up according to these articles. :shrug: If he didn't fly, then what the heck was he doing when he was there? Sitting in a training chair in front of a flight simulator? :eyes:

A snip of the timeline which the site you linked says can be copied in full without permission:

# Texas Speaker of the House Ben Barnes admitted to receiving a request from a Bush family friend to get Bush into the Guard, and contacted Brig. Gen. James Rose, head of the Texas Air National Guard, to accomplish this.

# Col. Walter Staudt was so eager to take Bush in that he held a special ceremony in which he was photographed swearing Bush in, even though Bush had been sworn in earlier by a captain.

# Bush was accepted for Air Force officer and pilot training despite (a) having no flying experience whatsoever, and (b) scoring an abysmal 25% (the lowest possible passing score) on the pilot aptitude test.

# Bush specifically checked "do not volunteer" for overseas assignment.

# Bush was commissioned as a second lieutenant by "special appointment" by the unit's C.O., despite having no ROTC in college nor having taken the 18 months' of military service or training school--required for any commission except for surgeons.

# Was elevated into the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron over a waiting list of far more highly qualified and deserving pilots.

# Bush "volunteered" for action in Vietnam flying the F-102, but was unsurprisingly turned down because he had only 300 hours of flying time, whereas only volunteers with 1,000 hours flying time or more were accepted.

# The plane Bush was trained in, the F-102, was soon thereafter excluded from any active service, something that had been decided before Bush started training in them.

[Luis Cyphier]

28. F-102

POLITICS: The F-102
While we're in the pre-convention lull - and I assure you, faithful readers, that by next week I'll be back on the issues as far as political coverage goes - it's worth remembering what a fraud many of the attacks on President Bush's National Guard service have been. The Donovan pointed recently to an essay on Aerospaceweb.org (with useful, and let's face it, really cool pictures) on the F-102, Bush's aircraft, and on his service record. A few key excerpts (but make sure to go there and read the whole thing) :


Even in peacetime conditions, F-102 pilots risked their lives on every flight. Only highly-qualified pilot candidates were accepted for Delta Dagger training because it was such a challenging aircraft to fly and left little room for mistakes. According to the Air Force Safety Center, the lifetime Class A accident rate for the F-102 was 13.69 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours, much higher than the average for today's combat aircraft. For example, the F-16 has an accident rate of 4.14, the F-15 is at 2.47, the F-117 at 4.07, the S-3 at 2.6, and the F-18 at 4.9. Even the Marine Corps' AV-8B, regarded as the most dangerous aircraft in US service today, has a lifetime accident rate of only 11.44 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours. The F-102 claimed the lives of many pilots, including a number stationed at Ellington during Bush's tenure. Of the 875 F-102A production models that entered service, 259 were lost in accidents that killed 70 Air Force and ANG pilots.

***

ilots from the 147th FIG of the Texas ANG were routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970. Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe or southeast Asia for periods of three to six months for frontline duty. Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time, told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants.

***


After being accepted into the ANG, Airman Basic Bush was selected to attend pilot training. His six weeks of basic training was completed at Lackland AFB in Texas during July and August of 1968. Upon its completion, Bush was promoted to the officer's rank of second lieutenant. He spent the next year in flight school at Moody AFB in Georgia from November 1968 to November 1969. The aircraft Lt. Bush trained aboard were the T-41 Mescelero propeller-driven basic trainer and the T-38 Talon primary jet trainer. He also completed two weeks of survival training during this period.


Bush then returned to Ellington in Texas to complete seven months of combat crew training on the F-102 from December 1969 to June 1970. This period included five weeks of training on the T-33 Shooting Star and 16 weeks aboard the TF-102 Delta Dagger two-seat trainer and finally the single-seat F-102A. Bush graduated from the training program in June 1970.

***


As he was completing training and being certified as a qualified F-102 pilot, Bush's squadron was a likely candidate to be rotated to Vietnam. However, the F-102 was built for a type of air combat that wasn't seen during that conflict, and the plane was withdrawn from southeast Asia in December 1969. The F-102 was instead returned to its primary role of providing air defense for the United States. In addition, the mission of Ellington AFB, where Bush was stationed, was also changing from air defense alert to training all F-102 pilots in the US for Air National Guard duty. Lt. Bush remained in the ANG as a certified F-102 pilot who participated in frequent drills and alerts through April of 1972.

By this time, the 147th Fighter Wing was also beginning to transition from the F-102 to the F-101F, an updated version of the F-101B used primarily for air defense patrols. Furthermore, the war in Vietnam was nearing its end and the US was withdrawing its forces from the theater. Air Force personnel returning to the US created a glut of active-duty pilots, and there were not enough aircraft available to accommodate all of the qualified USAF and ANG pilots. Since USAF personnel had priority for the billets available, many of the Air National Guard pilots whose enlistments were nearly complete requested early release. The ANG was eager to fulfill these requests because there was not enough time to retrain F-102 pilots to operate new aircraft before their enlistments were up anyway. Bush was one of those forced out by the transition, and he was honorably discharged as a first lieutenant in October 1973, eight months before his six-year enlistment was complete. Bush had approximately 600 flight hours by the time he completed his military service. In the fall of 1973, Bush began coursework at the Harvard Business School where he received an MBA in 1975

[DemBones DemBones]

33. Luis, where's the link for this info you posted twice

in this thread? Also, be sure to read the rules about not posting more than 3-4 paragraphs from an article. At DU we obey copyright law. :-)

Welcome to DU!

[Luis Cyphier]

40. Incorrect assumptions

It is not a double post I was just elaborating.

http://www.perrinairforcebase.net/p-f102.htm

http://www.seanet.com/~johnco/bush102.htm

http://baseballcrank.com/archives/003492.php

The last one is the link to where I got it from although the original was on aerospace.web but was up for only little while so I had to google the reference.

[DemBones DemBones]

45. Really? So why were you tombstoned?

It's correct, BTW, that DU rules prohibit extensive copying from articles and 3-4 paragraphs is the limit.

[bvar22]

29. Hell, this man crashed a Segway & 2 bicycles solo,

god help us if he ever gets behind the controls of a AIRPLANE!

[JohnyCanuck]

32. One thing that raises suspicions in my mind

We are never told how many hours the Shrub accumulated in his career as a pilot. The usual standard for judging competency/experience of a pilot is to verify how many flight hours he has logged in his log book, (especially "Pilot in Command" time). Another important factor when assessing experience is to look at the type of aircraft in which the pilot accumulated his flight hours. Obviously flying time logged in a multi-engine, jet powered commercial aircraft such as a Boeing or Airbus or time logged in a supersonic Air Force fighter aircraft counts for way more than time accumulated flying single engine puddle jumpers like Cessna or Pipers.

I would find it just a bit strange that if Dubya had a decent amount of hours under his belt that the Rovian mind bending machine would not make mention of the hours accumulated flying F102s (or any other aircraft). If he had any respectable flight time at all, it would be quite natural for PR material/repug propaganda to say something like, "....And during his period of service Mr. Bush accumulated over x hundred hours flying the F 102 interceptor for the Texas Air National Guard."

Lurking media whores. Next time you are at a WH press conference you might want to ask the following question, "In order to help put to bed this disgraceful and unseemly questioning of the President's military career, could the WH inform the public as to how many total flight hours the President accumulated as a pilot in the TANG and how many of those hours were solo hours logged in the F-102."


On Edit: Found through googling that Dubya's NG flying hours have been released. They show what I would expect to be an average amount of time for the period he spent as a pilot. So I'll have to eat crow and admit my suspicions based on an apparent reticence to release the accumulated flight hours were unfounded.

From USA Today story 9/8/04

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Bush ranked in the middle of his Air National Guard flight class and flew 336 hours in a fighter jet before letting his pilot status lapse and missing a key readiness drill in 1972, according to his flight records belatedly uncovered Tuesday under the Freedom of Information Act.

<snip>

The newly released records show Bush, a lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, ranked No. 22 in a class of 53 pilots when he finished his flight training at Moody Air Force Base in Georgia in 1969.

Over the next three years, he logged 326.4 hours as a pilot and an additional 9.9 hours as a co-pilot, mostly in his the F-102A jet used to intercept enemy aircraft. Of the 278 hours he flew in the interceptor, about 77 hours were in the TF-102A, the two-seat trainer version of the one-seat fighter jet.

The records show his last flight was in April 1972, which is consistent with pay records indicating Bush had a large lapse of duty between April and October of that year. Bush has said he went to Alabama in 1972 to work on an unsuccessful Republican Senate campaign. Bush skipped a required medical exam that cost him his pilot's status in August of that year.

Lawsuit uncovers new Bush guard records

[KoKo]

43. Canuck , that's the key. I can't find mention of "Flight Hours" in what's

been posted here. In fact one article makes it sound as though he might not have flown solo...it just keeps talking about "training" and flying in a "two seater."

Where are the flight hours? My theory is that he only did "simulated training" and flew in a two seater. He was two drunk or incompetent to be allowed to take a plane up alone. :shrug:

[KoKo]

42. Kick....

:kick:

[KoKo]

44. Here's a snip that says he still flies. But does he have a license?

Does George "W" use Zero-Eight-Foxtrot? According to Jerry Daniels, Executive Director of the Texas State Aircraft Pooling Board, "He used to fly on that airplane all the time. He stopped when he became a Presidential candidate because the State won't let you fly its aircraft for political purposes." But FTW learned that if and when Dubyah is back in the state and on state business, he probably will because Dubyah is a licensed pilot and Zero-Eight-Foxtrot is one of his favorites though he doesn't get to pilot much any more.
http://www.seanet.com/%7Ejohnco/bush102.htm

[DemBones DemBones]

46. If he's a licensed pilot why has he said he "used to be a pilot"?

:shrug: