I think Putin did the right thing RE the school hostages.

[UdoKier]

As horrible as the aftermath is, I think it was the right thing to attack given what was going on.

Does anyone else think Kerry should applaud Putin for making such a difficult choice, and state the he too would NEVER give in to terrorists or hostage takers?

[liberalnurse]

1. The terrorist started firing......

The Russian's responded.... poorly I might say....but they did.

Sounds like a rag-time group for a swap team/military but thats what they did.....

[UdoKier]

3. I was surprised they even started negotiating. Remember the theatre?

They went in and attacked, and lost innocents then, too. I thought they did the right thing then, too. Negotiating with people like that only encourages more hostage-taking.

[liberalnurse]

17. I remember well......

I'm speechless at how arrogant and irresponsible the Russian's are in this area. They are too bull headed to ask for help, training etc.....

[UdoKier]

19. Innocent casualties should be prevented as much as possible...

...but any terrorist hostage incident calls for swift ans overwhelming response. Negotiations whould ONLY be used to stall the hostage takers until you are ready to go in.

giving them what they want only gets more people kidnapped in the long run.

[pretzel4gore]

34. they lost 20 million people in

2nd world war....which occurred as direct result of western ruling elite pandering to fascism....
remember the USSR was established to gain a life of dignity for working people (the revolution was hijacked by fascist stalin)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

37. The Russian losses were closer to 30 or 40 million...

...with more than 12 million military deaths along with another 18 to 28 million civilian deaths. The civilian deaths included entire villages wiped off the map in the early stages of the war, those that died of starvation, those killed in large-scale bombing raids, and those who died as slaves working in the German factories.

The old Soviets went to a great deal of trouble to hide the real numbers for fear of showing any degree of weakness to the west. Now it's almost impossible to find the actual totals.

And Stalin was very far from being a "fascist"...he was a totalitarian for sure, but never a fascist.

[stickdog]

45. I'm sorry, but that's not what happened. Russian Special Forces blew up

& stormed the building.

The "terrorists fired first" crap is just an (obvious) cover story.

[liberalnurse]

46. Yea, your probably right......

Thats what they said......but my gut is queezy about the rationale. I have nothing else to go on......

[Yupster]

59. I don't think they planned to go in right then

It certainly didn't go down like a well planned and rehearsed operation.

Instead of special ops and army, there were cops and civilians and border guys running all different ways. My guess is the professionals were rehearsing the attack at a base somewhere when the conflagration started.

[schyzo-nas]

2. So if I remember clearly...

... Russia first lied about the number of hostages, then said that it would not attack, then lied about the number of deaths.
So you want Kerry to applaud a lier that uses barbarian techniques?

[UdoKier]

6. I don't think they knew the correct number of hostages.

I don't think they were lying.

Barbarian? What would you have done?

I don't agree with Russia being in Chechnya, but that doesn't excuse this terrorism. What did those kids in that school ever do to Chechnya?

Would you have given in to their demands? Even if the hostages got out that way (doubtful seeing as how they started KILLING them) it would have been great incentive to do it again and again...

[LisaL]

7. Lie?

Looks like they were not going to attack, they went in to get dead bodies as was agreed too by terrorists. That's when the explosions started and they had to attack then.
As for lying about the number of dead, had it even occurred to you that they didn't know at first how many died before they counted the bodies?

[makhno]

21. Put down Le Temps and read up on the war

It'll help you avoid the embarrassment of jumping to idiotic conclusions in a misguided repeat of a Kosovo-style outrage.

[politicat]

22. 1) they didn't know, 2) they responded, not attacked, 3) numbers change

as new information comes available.

Remember, in Oct. 2001, we thought 9,000 people died in the WTC towers. That number is now about a third. Revisions happen. That's what's going on in both 1 and 3 of your comments.

The second one is different. After talking to a Ukrainian friend in Kiev last night whom I trust to be very, very accurate about what's going on - and skeptical about her country's press as I am about mine - the Gov. forces did not intend to go in as soon as they did. They were planning on waiting this one out and negotiating. As it happens, they HAVE asked for help and have participated in UN sponsored training programs to rescue hostages. They got into those programs in 1994 after the Chechnyan hospital hostage incident when they learned they didn't know how to manage a hostage situation. The fact that they've basically botched every situation they have come up against is secondary.
Additionally, the hostage takers fired first. That changed the rules of engagement entirely. I would also assume that the hostage takers triggered their own bombs and caused a good deal of the human and structural damage. Ekaterina did not have that information yet.

Another point you don't get because you're not exposed to Russian cultural behaviors (because I assume you've never been there, lived there nor learned the language, else you'd know this) is that there's a huge difference between Russian theories of negotiation and ours. Russians are willing to negotiate as long as the negotiations are productive, but once they break down, there's no point. We, in contrast, tend to beat dead horses. On average, they're very accurate in their assessments when something will go no further with talking and action is needed.

Finally, if the gov. troops had not gone in yesterday, they would have had to have gone in today or tomorrow, to GREATER death, through heat prostration, dehydration and exhaustion. Children cannot handle the prolonged food and water deprivation and heat as well as an adult can. Had the government continued to wait, the death toll would have been greater.

I don't expect you to understand this; you're reacting with your emotions and not your logic. However, I hope others will understand and that someday, when you can think reasonably, that you will see that this was a lose/lose situation where there were no good outcomes.

Some of the children survived. That's better than losing them all to dehydration and heat prostration.

Pcat

[Media_Lies_Daily]

41. Where to begin...

"Remember, in Oct. 2001, we thought 9,000 people died in the WTC towers. That number is now about a third. Revisions happen. That's what's going on in both 1 and 3 of your comments."

You're going to have to come up with some documentation to support your comment that people still believed by October 2001 that 9000 people died in the WTC. Is your comment an example of revisionism?

"Additionally, the hostage takers fired first."

And you know this how? Who are you trusting to get this knowledge, and where did he or she find this out?

"Another point you don't get because you're not exposed to Russian cultural behaviors (because I assume you've never been there, lived there nor learned the language, else you'd know this) is that there's a huge difference between Russian theories of negotiation and ours. Russians are willing to negotiate as long as the negotiations are productive, but once they break down, there's no point. We, in contrast, tend to beat dead horses. On average, they're very accurate in their assessments when something will go no further with talking and action is needed.

Finally, if the gov. troops had not gone in yesterday, they would have had to have gone in today or tomorrow, to GREATER death, through heat prostration, dehydration and exhaustion. Children cannot handle the prolonged food and water deprivation and heat as well as an adult can. Had the government continued to wait, the death toll would have been greater."

Pure unadulterated speculation on your part. Period. You know nothing of the sort, IMHO.

"I don't expect you to understand this; you're reacting with your emotions and not your logic. However, I hope others will understand and that someday, when you can think reasonably, that you will see that this was a lose/lose situation where there were no good outcomes.

Some of the children survived. That's better than losing them all to dehydration and heat prostration."

Perhaps when you can "think reasonably" you will realize how obnoxious and completely condescending you have been throughout this thread. Amazing.

[Yupster]

61. It;s obvious to me

that the attack was not planned.

If it was, it wouldn't have taken ten hours. It would have been over in minutes.

Ovbviously they went in without a plan, and probably without their best people who were probably rehearsing the plan at the time.

[Yupster]

60. Lied about the number of deaths?

They're still uncovering them.

Every bit of incorrect information is not a lie. Sometimes you just don't know everything yet.

[MissB]

4. I don't think so

Kerry doesn't need to comment on Putin's actions.

[Kagemusha]

5. I heard a bunch of kids made a run for it.

Terrorists shot them in the back and the show was on...

[skippythwndrdog]

8. I think he did the right thing

So long as terrorists see that they are causing fear, they win. I hate it that innocents were killed and injured. In a perfect world we wouldn't have to worry about these things.

I know it's harsh but I feel that all nations need to send a message to all terrorists in whatever way it gets through: Attack us and you will die an repid death.

Because our major threat comes from Islamic extremists, and it appears to be the major terorism threat worldwide, perhaps we could try something novel with them. As I understand it, most of the bombers, shooters, etc. expect to die, even welcome death, when carrying out these actions because they believe that Paradise awaits. Perhaps a public burial of the terrorists killed in these attacks, a very public burial with complete television, radio, print and web coverage broadcast worldwide, showing a pigs head being placed in the coffin might deter some of them. If they're buried with or in contact with pork, they don't get to paradise according to a Muslim friend of mine from college.
O.K., i admit it. I borrowed his idea. He hates terrorism as much as I do.

[UdoKier]

10. Exactly.

And most democrats would agree. It's a great chance for Kerry to clarify that he wouldn't just "hoold hands and sing Kumbayah" as the right likes to say. Just because we opposed the Iraq war does NOT mean we wouldn't respond with strength to this sort of thing.

[Swamp Rat]

14. Not this Democrat

I hope Kerry does NOT congratulate Putin for this huge blunder. This reminds me of the Waco incident, where the federal authorities did not understand nor even bothered to try to understand the motives or background of the Branch Dividians.

Putin's actions resulted in the deaths of a lot of people. Remember the recent theater incident in Moscow? You might also be right. I was not there so I cannot say, but I assume the worst of Putin.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

16. Do you understand that the Chechen Rebels are terrorists.

They are linked to Al-Quada. :eyes:

Putin handled this situation the best way he could. These Terrorists had NO right to take children and use them as hostages. One should hope that Putin hits back hard at these SOBS!!!

[Swamp Rat]

23. Propaganda

Got any evidence that they were Chechens or Al-Queda? Links please.

Before you blame Chechens, why don't you read what they have to say.

http://www.chechentimes.org/en/news/?id=21098

By the minute reporting by a Russian News source:
http://www.gazeta.ru/intnews.shtml?346298#346298

*****

Here's some more links for you (thanks to HuckleB):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,1294685...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1213034,...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1296220,...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,859806,0...
http://www.mosnews.com/feature/2004/09/01/terror.shtml
http://www.hrvc.net/articles/kuhner.htm
http://www.hrvc.net/articles/zbrzezinski.html
http://www.hrvc.net/west/12-10-03.htm
http://www.hrvc.net/articles/koshmel.html
http://www.hrvc.net/articles/osgood.html
http://www.hrvc.net/articles/putley.html
http://www.hrvc.net/articles/boston.html
http://www.theoathbook.com/op-ed.php

*****

Here's links from Aidoneus:Aidoneus

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/FI03Ag01.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chechnya-sl/message/39855
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chechnya-sl/message/39854
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chechnya-sl/message/39851
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chechnya-sl/message/39841
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chechnya-sl/message/39821

[politicat]

27. From Gazeta: if these are humanitarians, I'm a blue footed booby.

9:50 The attackers have rejected all offers to deliver food and water for hostages.

<--snip-->

and there's the problem that this WAS an attack on Russians - the region (as I suspected) is not Muslim, but Russian Orthodox.

The attack has rattled this sleepy corner of Russian Orthodox North Ossetia, ethnically and religiously distinct from the nearby mainly Muslim regions of Chechnya and Ingushetia in the complex ethnic patchwork of the Caucasus mountain range.

<--snip-->

9:54 With the clock ticking for President Vladimir Putin to solve the crisis, few security experts forecast a bloodless end to the siege, the latest violent attack in a fortnight following the bombing of two airliners and a Moscow metro station. "The situation is serious. We have come up against very cruel people," Leonid Roshal, a paediatrician who has been mediating with the hostage-takers, told relatives, Interfax news agency said. At least 350 people are held hostage in the school.

<--snip-->

11:01 report states that hostage survivors said the people inside were Chechan by their own claims. That jibes with what Ekaterina said last night. Interviews on television in Kiev with survivors had them talking about the fact that the hostage takers were claiming to be Chechan (or Chechnyan as is spelled in Ukrainian....)

And I'm sorry, I just can't take any faith in press releases from the Chechen Times. If you knew them, you'd realize they're somewhere in the objectivity continuum between the Washington times and Faux. They're apologists for the Separatist movement (which claim is not up for dispute.) They're like Sein Fein in Ireland; they will not allow blame to fall upon their movement for the actions of a "few extremists" while being closely associated with those extremists. While I happen to agree with the idea of a Chechan state (it will fail; they don't have the metals, oil or industry to support themselves, but it will get them off Russia's back....) I don't trust their house organ.

Politicat

[Swamp Rat]

33. Either they are apologists for the Chechen terrorists or they are

truth tellers for Chechen freedom fighters. It depends on who will write the history.

I agree with you though, I don't trust them nor do I entirely trust the Gazeta. I wonder if we'll ever know who they really were, or how correct Putin was in this particular situation? If I was there, I'm sure I would have been furious with the hostage-takers too and would have wanted to act against them.

No matter what their cause is/was, they are killers of children. There's no justification for this under any circumstances. :cry:

[goddess40]

40. Putin not trustworthy

I don't believe Chechnians are linked to Al Queda. The Russians have been suppressing Chechnia for many years and will not give them their freedom. Kerry should stay out of it. This thing will have many twists and turns before the truth is known. Putin is a snake in the grass and may have precipitated some action to discredit the Chechnians. Putin would like nothing more than to crush Chechnia.

[Swamp Rat]

49. Not only is he not trustworthy, he's a danger to the region.

He's the Russian counterpart to George HW Bush. I find it distressing that folks here find him sagacious in any way.

[makhno]

52. Fair enough

But the unquestioning support for religious fundamentalism and terrorism is equally disheartening.

[Yupster]

62. Regardless, they had to act within hours

ayway.

Kids just can't go that long without water. They couldn't stretch it out over more days.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

25. Hmmm. How do you justify what Putin has ordered to be done to the...

...Chechen civilians, including FAR MORE women and children than the Russians have lost, during most of the last decade that the Chechens have been fighting for their independence?

Why did the Russians allow all of the other former southern republics to break away when the USSR broke up, and yet still insist on hanging on to Chechnya?

Try reading some history before blurting out such blatant nonsense.

[politicat]

30. Because Chechnya is a province that is attempting to forment Civil War.

What would we do, do you think, if South Carolina attempted, though bombs and hostage takings, to separate themselves from the rest of the US?

This is a civil war in the making, Media... or should I call you Medea?

If Civil war breaks out in Russia, Georgia will come in on Chechnya's side. Georgia is already about || far from declaring war on Russia. (Not a bright move, but...) So will other "Muslim" states in the region that can assist in some way or other.

This, on top of the existent instability of the region WILL touch off a world war, and you can bet it's going to escalate.

Keeping peace in the region by preventing the civil war is the only way out. While I wish Russia would just cede Chechnya, they're too dangerous a loose cannon to be on their own. And then they'd be an extremist state who got their way by bad behavior AND had nukes.... (moving that part of the arsenal is NOT easy.)

What do you want? Russia to hand a few dozen warheads to a government that's not clear on how to pay for their electricity bills??

Politicat

[Media_Lies_Daily]

35. You seem to have forgotten that Russia ALLOWED the rest of the...

...former USSR southern republics to secede without a shot being fired. Why is Chechnya somehow different from the rest of the independent republics in the southern portion of the old USSR?

By the way, did you know that we (yes, that's right, American Special Forces) currently have bases in most, if not all, of those old republics? If a Russian Civil War were to take place, it should have happened when the old USSR broke up, not now...unless our meddling in that part of the world has encouraged anti-Russian activities.

And please document your assertions about Chechnya having nukes. Is that the Russian equivalent to the NeoCons claiming that Iraq had WMDs? Laughable.

As to your comment about "Medea", what is that all about? Was that a rather lame attempt to be insulting in some unique manner known only to you?

[makhno]

38. You seem not to know ...

... that Chechnya was not a republic of the former USSR, but an autonomous region of the RSFSR. The country had de-facto independence from Moscow between 1990 and 1994 but was, predictably, unable to turn nationalist fervor into a working state.

American meddling has indeed encouraged anti-Russian activities, as evidenced by Georgia's increasingly bellicose stand. Having prostituted his country to American imperialism, Saakashvili now expects - perhaps erroneously - US backing in a confrontation with Russia.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. Most posters on this or any other board simply don't understand...

...what an autonomous region was in the old USSR...that's why I used the term "republic".

You also stated that Chechnya "was, predictably, unable to turn nationalist fervor into a working state". That sounds like an analysis by the Russian government, not the Chechnyans. I bet if you asked the Chechnyans, you would get a much different point of view.

[makhno]

43. Please...

...don't engage in deception by backtracking over your assertion that most other southern republics of the FSU gained independence from Russia, while poor Chechnya did not. The difference between Soviet republic and Russian autonomous region is crucial, since separatism at the region level threatens the integrity of the new Russian state and has nothing to do with the creation of new states after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

In the heady days of its independence from Moscow, the Chechen state was little more than a safe haven for criminal activities, primarily related to the drug, weapon and - yes - oil trade. There was no state as is commonly understood - no funtional legal system, no regulated above-ground economy, no protection for the large Russian minority in Grozny and other urban centers. The situation was similar to what now exists in Afghanistan. Moscow was cognizant of these facts and accepted the situation as long as high-ranking officials benefited from it - Grachev, Yeltsin's family, others I don't have time to look up now.

To reduce the Chechnya question to a simple struggle for national liberation is to ignore the complexities of almost fifteen years of late-Soviet and Russian politics.

[politicat]

24. Not like Waco. Waco was religious and legal in nature. This was war crime.

The better analogy is the Stockholm hostages, though they weren't children. Inaction would have resulted in as many deaths. You're not there, I assume you don't read Russian, and you're not understanding what's going on in Russia. Russia is in a civil war - undeclared, but still there. I was there in 94 for the hospital hostage crisis. This is a war... and Russia is being forced to be on the defensive - the Chechnyan separatists won't negotiate for a cease fire.

See my post above. There was no way this was going to turn out well.

Kerry should express grief and a wish that Putin and Russia work together with Kerry, the US and the UN to prevent these tragedies in the future.

Pcat

[Swamp Rat]

26. Uninformed action RESULTED in many deaths

That was my ONLY point by using the analogy.

Unless you are Russian or just came back from there, you cannot just say Russia is being forced to be on the defensive. In fact, they have been on the offense for nearly a century. The repressed are rising up because their Russian opressors have finally become weak.

I am not at all defending the actions of the people who attacked the innocent people in that school. It is horrible and I haven't slept since it all began. By the way, I speak many languages and my family is from Belarus.

Please read post #23.

[politicat]

31. Studied in Russia. Keep up with the language and culture. Many friends in

region with whom I correspond regularly and I've sponsored several for immigration. Are you just back??

You make your own argument - Russia is on the defensive because it is become weak.

Pcat

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. So, unlike Swamp_Rat, you are NOT a native of Russia,...

...nor have you ever had family from that region, is that correct?

I find it amazing that you're trying to lecture Swamp_Rat on Russian politics/culture/current events.

[Swamp Rat]

50. Just to set the record straight

I was born in New Orleans and am very proud of that... even if we are an economically poor city/state.

Dziákuj (thank you in Belorussian)

[Fatima]

29. I hate terrorists too, but you are WAY wrong about Muslims and Islam

Burying Muslims with pig parts has no bearing on whether the Muslim gets to heaven or not because this was not done with his/her will and consent. This kind of (scuse the pun) hogwash is an urban myth that unfortunately many Muslims even believe in their ignorance. However, for a Muslim to have something haraam (unlawful) forced on him or her is not a sin. Willfully eating a pork chop, on the other hand, is something different.

If anything these thugs will go to hell based on their actions. They must be dealt with like the criminal scum they are. Burying them with hog parts is not a deterrent because it is not haraam to have such things forced on you against your will.

This comes from many scholars of Islam, I didn't make this up...so let your Muslim friend consult his imam for further guidance.

[skippythwndrdog]

51. Thanks for the correction. n/t

[Ilsa]

9. I don't think i want Kerry commenting on this...

He could look soft if he condemns the outcome, but look like he's indifferent to human rights if he condones everything Putin has done with respect to Chechnya.

I can't help but wonder if Chechnya is going to be UN occupied eventually to stop the slaughter.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

11. Putin was right! He had NO OTHER CHOICE!

The Chechen Rebels were holding SCHOOL CHILDREN hostage.

:grr:

I promise you if I were the President of Russia, the Chechen Rebels would feel A HORRIBLE, BRUTAL, INHUMANE, RESPONSE FOR THERE ACTIONS.

This is below the belt and the PROPER RESPONSE should too be "below the belt".

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

12. Vigilante parents should never have been involved

They were, with their kalishnikovs.

The area should have been completely cordoned off.

It wasn't.


Putin should have turned over the prisoners the Chechnyans wanted.

He didn't.

[Gin]

13. what a chaotic scene it was....cops-parents-firemen...tanks..what an awful

mess...... with that chaos the people who caused this could have escaped in street clothes.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

15. Those "Prisoners" are terrorists. The Rebels are linked to...

Al-Quada!

Just wanted to clarify that they are the enemy.

[UdoKier]

18. Al Qaeda or not, they are terrorists, and should not be negotiated with.

I hope Pres. Kerry would handle it the same way.

And to the previous poster, I think Clinton and Reno handled the Waco incident the best they could. Why do you blame Clinton for the fact that some cult was stockpiling weapons then set themselves on fire?

I feel bad for the kids, but the adult members of the Branch Davidians were nutso. Reno did the right thing.

[Swamp Rat]

48. Well, I ran accross this post and found you talking to me.

"And to the previous poster, I think Clinton and Reno handled the Waco incident the best they could." - I don't. They utterly failed, the FBI that is. Please don't put words in my mouth, especially if you are responding someone else's post, while talking FOR me.

Nowhere did I Blame Janet Reno or Bill Clinton. The FBI negotiators had no understanding about Millennialist revival movements. There were, though, anthropologists and religion experts that tried to inform FBI and stop them from making rash decisions. The FBI negotiators REFUSED to listen and decided to ATTACK them. This is a fact.

"Why do you blame Clinton for the fact that some cult was stockpiling weapons then set themselves on fire?" - Again, where did I say this? What do YOU know about "cults?" My point about the Waco analogy was NEVER about religion. It was about federal authority making uninformed and rash decisions resulting in death - many of which in both cases were children.

I'd appreciate it if you would address me directly next time.

[UdoKier]

53. Okay, I'll address you directly.

The FBI and ATF did not make the decision to set the joint ablaze. The Davidians did. The beliefs of the cult are irrelevant. The FBI knew that the group was stockpiling weapons, posing a threat to the community, and holing up in their compound. They kept the Davidians from hurting others in the vicinity, and in my opinion that's part of their job.

I do NOT expect the FBI to know the psychological makeup of every possible fringe group just in case an incident occurs. They followed their procedures. Unfortunately, the Davidians didn't care enough about their own kids to try and work something out with authorities. It's very sad, but I don't blame them, nor did I blame them for Ruby Ridge.

If I put words in your mout regarding Clinton and Reno, I apologize. It's just that they are the usual targets for blame in these incidents. Force of habit, I guess.

I also though Reno was right to get that boy and send him back to Cuba. I wouldn't have stuck a rifle in his face, though...

[Swamp Rat]

55. Thanks

I think we agree on many points, but I know for a fact that the FBI negotiators instigated the conflagration due to their ignorance of this particular type of hostage situation - normally, I believe, the FBI is very good at certain types of situations for which they are trained. This situation was handled using the right strategy for the wrong situation. This, of course was not Reno's fault (I totally understand your "force of habit" about Reno). She was given faulty information and the failure occurred on many levels. I really don't have time to tell you the anthropological research I did on this subject, but if you read Michael Barkum's work, you'll find another perspective.

Yes, David Koresh was absolutely nuts, but we should never consider cults or fringe groups irrelevant. That is precisely the reason Waco ended the way it did. If you can, please read Barkum's work and you will better understand my perspective. Myung Sun Moon's cult is a good example.

As for Elian Gonzales, Reno was right. The Batista mafiosos were instigating resistance against Reno with the help of CIA backed SOBs like Otto Reich.

edit: Swamp rats are notoriously bad spellers

[Yupster]

64. I disagree about Waco

Those kids were not being denied food and water. That's the difference.

In Russia, there was no time left to wait. The kids would soon die.

In Waco, they could have waited as long as they wanted. No one in the compound was in any danger, other than from the authorities.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

32. The only thing you've succeeded in "clarifying" is the fact that you...

...know next to nothing about Chechnya, nor what has happened to that country's people since attempting to break away from Russia almost a decade ago.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

44. Chechnya is part of Russia. The Rebels are linked with...

Al-Quada. That means they are Terrorists.

Also, Chechnya is part of Russia as Montana is part of the U.S.
The U.S wants to break up every other country. If a part of America wanted to break away the Feds would be sent in to stop it. This blatant double standard is absurd. America should be one but all other countries should be broken up and therefore weakened. Sounds like imperialism to me.

Why do so many on the left apologize for these horrible people?

:eyes:

[makhno]

47. One reason for fundamentalist suppor

Look at post #28 below. Racist, anti-Russian sentiments internalized during the Cold War.

Another reason is lack of knowledge about the situation. Chechnya has been covered by Western media since 1994 as a massive Russian ethnic cleansing operation. Russian war crimes were widely publicized, while the plight of the Russian minority in Chechnya, criminal and terrorist activities of the Chechen "freedom fighters", kidnappings and other atrocities were downplayed or unreported.

Most people fail to see that continuous instability in Chechnya is a very valuable bargaining chip for American interests, in addition to being a tremendous burden on the Russian economy and its strategic interests in the Middle East and elsewhere.

It's sad, if not surprising, to see liberals drinking at the neocons' propaganda trough. A little critical thinking would go a long way toward putting current events in Russia in the proper perspective.

[stickdog]

54. Do you have any evidence for these outlandish claims?

Or did I miss the sarcasm?

[makhno]

20. Yeah, acceding to their demands would've worked

Just as it worked in Budyonnovsk in '95. Read up on the origins of the Chechen war, the "rebels'" motivations, their involvement with organized crime, penchant for wahhabism and so on. This isn't Che Guevara we're talking about here.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LanternWaste]

42. Sounds more to me like you're refering to the leadership

Sounds more to me like you're refering to the leadership rather than the people as a whole. Aren't the individuals part and parcel of the culture? So isn't an indictment on the nation simply a less direct indictment on the individual people?

According to Jensen's, "Utopia in Power" the land of Russia has been invaded over and over again by foreign powers, from the Mongol hordes up to the Nazi invasion. Seems to me that far from making a people sanguine about death counts it would force them to realize the true horrors of what conflict is, regardless of whether they can prevent those same invasions and concurrent casualties from recurring. Case in point-- the faces of the Russian families I watched reacting to the two commercial airliners that went down this past week didn't appear too sanguine to me...

As for me, I can't call a culture "animals". I can call it unlucky in leadership. I can call it misfortunate for it's victimization at the hands of invading nations. I can even call it ill-fated in its geographical location which has been the prime reason for most of the invasions, but when I deride the culture itself-- when I myself become guilty of sweeping generalizations, I lose a point of light within myself and begin the descent. :)

[TexasSissy]

56. Kerry should keep his mouth shut, except to express sorrrow over the

loss of innocent lives, esp. children.

He doesn't know all the facts. It's not for him to judge at this time.

[skygazer]

57. I don't think we have enough information yet

I think it's too early to say exactly what happened. We all know that news reports can be very innacurate and when they're coming from another country, that adds another dimension to it.

Therefore, I think it would be rash for Kerry to categorically praise it - rather, I think a general statement of support and sympathy is more in order. It could go along with a remark about being tough on terrorists without directly endorsing the action.

Diplomacy.

[slojim240]

63. Nothing occurs in a vacuum. Put it in perspective. As a rule Americans

are ignorant of internationl affairs and history.

http://bigeye.com/FCArchive.htm

[TexasSissy]

58. Yes, once the terrorists started killing the hostages, the locals had to

do something. They had little to lose.

That is U.S. policy, also, I believe. Once the kidnappers or terrorists start harming or killing hostages, all bets are off, and we must make the best effort to get them out, even if it MIGHT kill some of the hostages. They KNOW the hostages are being killed by just leaving them there.

I don't know all the facts, but it sounds like they had to go in. HOWEVER, I heard on the news that the soldiers/policemen were actually going in, on agreement with the terrorists, to remove dead hostage bodies, when the terrorists actually opened fire or started explosions on the Russian policemen (or whatever they were), requiring the police to fire back.

So sad. So awful. Who but the most evil of people, if you can call them people, would hurt innocent children, esp. en masse like that?