Another example of police misconduct

[ecstatic]

SAVANNAH, Ga. - A police chase that reached speeds of 110 mph turned deadly when state troopers trying to stop the fleeing vehicle rammed it off the highway, killing the driver and her 17-year-old passenger.

Authorities defended the trooper who steered his patrol car's front bumper into the fleeing vehicle behind its rear wheels, causing the vehicle to spin off the highway and strike a tree.

... Sharp's father, Charlie Sharp, said his daughter had a suspended license, but he doesn't believe she was in any other trouble. doesn't blame authorities for his daughter's death. "I have to believe they did everything they did in the right way," he said. :wtf:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040818/ap_on_re_us/deadly_chase_4

[NoMoreMrNiceGuy]

1. Father doesn't blame them????

When the police hear crap like that its even easier to justify within their own minds that what they do is "protect and serve". America is a police state...this pisses the shit out of me...bastards.

[Bluzmann57]

2. Why was the car going 110 in the first place?

Yes the police probably should have taken the license plate number and nailed the driver at a later date, but 110 mph is unsafe for everybody on the highway, especially whenj the driver is inexperienced, as this person apparently was. I don't blame the police entirely either. 110 is just too fast and there very well could have been an accident even without police pursuit.

[okieinpain]

9. I agree with you, any person who tries and out run the police is

showing a complete lack of concern for my safety. you want to run from the police get out of the car and do it.

[ecstatic]

14. Well...

She was going 110 because the police were chasing her. I'm sure she would have slowed down if the police went on about their business. Such a senseless death--over a suspended license!!

[Bluzmann57]

18. Maybe she should have just pulled over

when the police were behind her with their sirens blaring. She would have been alive today had she done so. She should not have been behind the wheel with a suspended license to begin with. Obviously she was scared, but to put all the blame on the police in this case is ridiculous.

[jdj]

63. Here recently the cops chased a group of teens, only one

old enough to drive at speeds over 100mph with the car having only a doughnut on one of the back wheels instead of a 4th tire. The kids eventually crashed the car, and all 5 of them were killed instantly.

[Deja Q]

13. With the amount of police department cuts thanks to repuke tax cuts,

any 'police state' is dictated and maintained by * and Ashcroft's Federal agencies.

Local police are merely spending more time nabbing speeders who are merely going the same speed as everybody else in traffic in order to rake up easy money. (in other words, the speed limit is 60, everybody is doing 75, and they pick and choose people - particularly from the left lane - to give tickets to.) Okay, the police are still unethical, but we live in a corrupt society. And when in Rome...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

3. Death sentence extended to driving with a suspended license.

And I only had to pay a $100 fine...

[Dookus]

4. I think pinning this ALL on the police

is silly.

You're advocating a state where ANY criminal can simply evade arrest by running away.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. Funny how you are saying I am advocating something I never said.

Why can't you be honest about this?

[Dookus]

6. Obviously

you didn't use those words. But the logic that the police "executed" this guy for driving without a license is unfair.

If people advocate that police should never pursue a fleeing suspect for safety's sake, then I would guess ANY criminal would learn quickly that escape can be assured simply by exceeding the speed limit.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

10. Obviously you have no fucking clue whatsoever what I mean.

I won't pretend to speak for you, I would appreciate it if you would stop pretending you can speak for me.

[Dookus]

12. take a deep breath

and explain what you mean, then. No need to get so angry and PM me. It sounded to me like you were saying that the criminal in this case was "sentenced to death" by the police. I think that's a pretty obvious reading of your post.

I'm pointing out that he has to bear a large part of the responsibility himself. Blaming the police entirely, as the title of this thread seems to do, is silly.

[ecstatic]

16. the "criminal" you refer to

Is a 21 year old female. No criminal record. Who knows why she was trying to outrun the police... I still don't think she deserved to die... I blame the police for having this high speed chase in the first place--that, not the deceased, is what put everyone else's life in danger.

[Dookus]

21. of course she didn't deserve to di

I never said she did.

But she was stupid to flee at 110 mph. She surely carries SOME responsibility for this tragedy, no?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

19. What I mean is that it is dishonest of you to pretend to speak for me

and please stop doing it.

I meant what I said, and whether or not you understand it or agree with it, it is dishonest to use different words and say that represents what I said.

[Dookus]

22. get over it

Nobody reading this thread would ever think I was quoting you.

Why not just say what you mean if you think I've grossly misrepresented you? And please stop PM'ing me. It's unnecessarily aggressive.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

23. I feel no obligation to obey you

I'll express myself they way I please, and if it annoys you, I will just consider that a bonus.

[Dookus]

25. Well this is an order

stop PM'ing me. That is a violation of the rules if you continue after I have asked you to stop.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

27. Wow you must feel an awesome sense of power!

You gave me an order that I MUST OBEY.

I wonder how the illusion of control feels for you. is it satisfying?

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

33. blah blah

Why not discuss the issue at hand?

Do you believe the police are entirely responsible for this tragedy? Do you believe police should never engage in high-speed pursuits if the suspect tries to escape?

These actually are NOT simple questions with simple answers. I can certainly sympathize with arguments on both sides.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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39. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[Feanorcurufinwe]

42. The topic at hand is

I made a post which you misrepresented as meaning something it didn't mean.

:eyes:

[Dookus]

43. yes you've said

and I have asked you repeatedly to simply state what you mean instead of continuing this borderline-insane hostility.

I can tell you're upset. I have given you COUNTLESS opportunities to return to the topic at hand and discuss this rationally, but you have repeatedly refused.

Now, do you believe that the fleeing suspect in this case bears any responsibility for the tragedy? What do you think the police OUGHT to do in such cases? Do you think it's reasonable for police to NEVER change a suspect who exceeds the speed-limit?

[ecstatic]

44. Even though you were not talking to me

I'll say it again-- high speed chases are NEVER appropriate. What's the point? I think people who advocate such watch WAY too much TV. Lives are put at risk when cops decide to chase (usually harmless) people down the street at speeds topping 100 mph.

[K-W]

48. dupe, ignore

[Dookus]

49. That's a fair position

and not one I necessarily disagree with. But I *DO* appreciate that a tacit admission by the police that exceeding the speed limit while escaping a crime scene will result in no chase has some undeniably unwanted consequences, too.

What if it is known that the escapee is in some way incapacitated (e.g, drunk or drugged) and can endanger others? What if there's a hostage situation in the car?

I just see a lot more complexity in the issue, I guess.

[K-W]

50. hmm, not posting right, ignore

[K-W]

51. ditto, reply not working right, ignore

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

47. The fact is

I honestly don't know what you're trying to say. So why not just express it again? Your few on-topic posts are short and cryptic.

I honestly don't understand your position on the topic at hand, and I'm really flabbergasted at your insistence on continuing a non-fight.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

52. Well

I honestly don't know what you're trying to say.

If that's true, I think it's pretty funny.

So why not just express it again?

As I've said repeatedly, I like the way I expressed myself in the first place, and I find your efforts to get me to say things the way you want to be funny.

[Dookus]

54. I'm not trying to get you to say anything my way

I'm honestly trying to get you to discuss the topic.

Your post was:

"Death sentence extended to driving with a suspended license.


And I only had to pay a $100 fine..."


When I interpreted that the way I think MOST people would, you went ballistic and said I misrepresented your point. I've asked MANY MANY times for you to explain it, but you refuse to. Do you really think that is a well-thought, well-explained argument? It's a cryptic message. Why be so reluctant to expand on it?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

55. The simple fact is that I'm not going to play along.

:hi:

[Dookus]

56. You see this as some game

I guess. I see it simply as a discussion. Or at least I WISH it were a discussion. I guess you have nothing to say about the topic at hand. Oh well... :hi:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

57. What I have to say, is what I said in my original comment

Which I guess, was too cryptic for you to understand, or at least that's what you have said.

[Dookus]

59. well I thought I understood your position

but you insisted I didn't.

I still cannot understand why you would rather type 40 posts playing this game instead of ONE post that explains your position.

Anyway, you seem determined to want the last word, so go ahead. I won't respond. Knock yourself out.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

60. Death sentence extended to driving with a suspended license.

And I only had to pay a $100 fine...

[ecstatic]

15. Actually, it was an execution of sorts

He rammed the car in a way that ensured instant death. What did the cop think would happen? Was it worth two deaths? Hmmm....

[K-W]

32. You are overstating it.

ensured instant death? Im sorry but unless the officer was some kind of fortune teller he could not possibly have known exactly what the car would do. Cops are trained to drive fleeing vehicles off the road because they are a danger to others.

[stavka]

36. ...yeah, maybe they shouldn't have run from the police.....

[MrSlayer]

7. The lesson here is: Don't Run From The Cops.

Pull over right away, keep your hands on the wheel until otherwise instructed and be polite. If you run away on a high speed chase you not only endanger yourself but also the officers doing their job and many other innocent people. It's pretty simple really. Damn shame this had to end in a tragedy when there was no reason for it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

20. What lesson did you learn from the Rodney King video?

[MrSlayer]

24. That he did not follow these rules.

If Mr. King had not been on PCP and driving like a maniac he might have avoided getting the shit beat out of him. Had he been straight and followed the rules he would have gotten a ticket. I'm not advocating police brutality by any means but if three taser shots don't calm you down, you just might need a beating. Let's not pretend he was some innocent guy who got pulled out of his car and beat on for no reason.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

26. I would submit that there were other lessons to learn from that as well.

[stavka]

35. ...don't be a crack-head burglar.....and carry a video camera

[Cat Atomic]

8. 110 mph? That's recklessly gambling with *other* peoples' lives.

Maybe the cops should've taken the license plate number and backed off. But if someone is driving 110 mph on the highway, they're endangering the lives of everyone on the road.

[cosmicvortex20]

40. You got that right...

How many people here would be saying it was inappropriate if the driver ended up killing some innocent person and the cops could have stopped her.

[Deja Q]

11. And the dude doing 110 wasn't engaging in misconduct?! And

In such a high speed chase, lives are at risk and accidents can happen.

Was this misconduct intentional? I don't think so.

It's tragic, but at such high speeds, bad things will happen.

I can't blame the police for this.

[T Town Jake]

17. I read the story...

...and it seems to me that all of the "misconduct" was committed by the person who decided to turn a public road into their own personal version of the Indy 500, not by the police. It's a tragic story with a sad ending, but it could have all been avoided had the driver in question simply pulled over.

[ecstatic]

30. High speed chases are NEVER appropriate

Though I understand the positions of those who disagree with me.

High speed chases put everyone's life in danger, and for what? There are millions of uncaught criminals living in this country, what difference will one or two more make? Why not just get the tag number and deal with the situation in a more safe fashion? I'm actually a new driver, and, as someone who is forced to travel the interstate everyday, I can't imagine how I would handle a bunch of police zooming past me at 100+ mph. I would probably wreck from sheer nervousness. I just don't feel chases on the roads are ever appropriate.

[K-W]

31. I think telling cops they arnet allowed to chase criminals

is a rediculous idea.

The driver, not the officer initiates a chase.

[stavka]

37. I think in pursuit of a known violent felon they might be....

but not if it further endangers the public unless there is a very high probability of escape.

[cally]

46. High speed chases are never appropriate

Many large cities have stopped them because too many innocent bystanders get killed. In this case, you can find the person later rather than risking so many lives in the chase. The police are wrong and this is a tragic death.

[Dookus]

53. Never appropriate?

What if it's a hostage situation in the car, and the hostage's life is clearly in danger? What if it is known the driver has a large bomb?

Is it wise public policy for the police to make known that exceeding the speed limit allows one to escape?

I'm not saying high-speed chases SHOULD be the norm, but I also recognize that there could be some situations where they're the better of two bad choices, and therefore "never" is probably too strong a word to use.

[cally]

58. How about almost never

If a hostage is in a car then put down those strips that deflate the tires. Same thing for a bomb. I get your point that I used too strong a word but too many folks die in high speed chases.

[Dookus]

61. I agree with that

Like most issues, there isn't an obvious right answer and an obvious wrong answer - if there were, we wouldn't be discussing it.

I'd like to see a lot fewer of them, but I'd be reluctant for any police force to announce that their policy was never to engage in high-speed chases. There needs to be some case-by-case analysis of when the benefits outweigh the risks. Thanks, Cally.

[tblue37]

62. When my son was 19,

his 20-year-old roommate and a friend of theirs were on their way home from celebrating the roomie's birthday with a long night of drinking. My son, fortunately, had stayed home to study.

A cop started to follow them as they pulled into the parking lot of the apartment complex, and J, the driver of the car the boys were in, floored it. He had a six-pack in the car and had been drinking, and at age 18, he figured an MIP would lose him his license, since he had racked up other violations.

He reached speeds of 120 mph. They crested a hill in a residential section, with B (my son's roommate), begging J to slow down. J told him if he was scared he should fasten his seatbelt, which B did, just as the car took flight from the hill, hitting a street sign, and then wrapping itself around a tree some distance beyond. (The car flew for many, many yards.) J was killed insatantly (broken neck), and B had twenty stitches. But his seatbelt (which he'd gotten hooked up barely in time) saved his life.

All I can say is thank goodness my son decided studying was more important that night, because if he had been in the car, he'd have been killed, since the side behind the driver's seat (which is where he would have been sitting) was crumpled like a wad of paper.

But here's the thing. J was an idiot for speeding like that in an attempt to outrun the police--especially through a residential neighborhood, even if the street is one of the town's main thoroughfares. It was about 2:00 a.m., which is probably the only reason they didn't hit another car--or several. He didn't want an MIP--but he ended up dead at age 18 instead.

But I also think the cops were idiots to be chasing him. They first turned on their lights as J was turning into the parking lot to the apartment complex to drop B home. They could have just taken down his license plate or waited until he pulled into a parking space.

There is way too much macho aggressiveness and adrenaline rushing by cops involved in these high speed chases. The girl in the story above was doing 86 in a 70-mph zone. Too fast, yes, but not faster than most people do on highways. I know, because I never go above the speed limit, and on a 70-mph highway everyone passes me going at elst 80-85 mph. If the cops had backed off, there would have been no 110 mph speeding. They could have ID'd the car and caught up with her later or radioed ahead.

They were chasing her not because they figured she had something in her car or was guilty of some other crime, but because she was running, and like a predator in the wild, they were responding to prey behavior.

During the 1070s here in our relatively small midwestern college town (Lawrence, Kansas), the 19-year-old daughter of a KU professor was killed when a cop chased a car through a red light. The car hit the girl's car in the intersection. Just a year or two ago, another person was killed when a high-speed chase led to a major traffic accident.

Many cops are young or relatively young men with a certain personality type--the personality type that draws people to a career that allows them to wear a gun, play hero, act out dominance roles and "chase bad guys." The TV/movie glorification of cop-heroes in high-speed chases undoubtedly feeds into that rush they get when they are chasing down a fleeing car. At a certain point they are not thinking about the possible consequences of the chase. They are in the chase, so caught up in the hunt that they probably can't stop, at least not easily.

We are, after all, animals, and in situations where our most instinctive responses are triggered, we tend to go with those instincts. I think that is usually what happens in high-speed chases like this.

Now, I am not suggesting that cops should never chase down suspects--but I would say that such high-speed chases should be very rare indeed. And, frankly, I do not believe a traffic violation is ever suffficient justification for a high-speed chase.

They had her car on record as speeding. All they had to do was get the license number. By pushing her to run at such speeds they were endangering more people than she had been endangering at 86 mph--especially since most people do drive 80-85 mph in a 70-mph zone.

As for the girl, she was an idiot, just as my son's friend J was an idiot. She didn't want to get in trouble for driving with a suspended license, just as he feared losing his license and getting in trouble over an MIP. Now they are both dead. Damned fools.

But I think the cops in this case were also damned fools. Many cities now have adopted very strict guidelines for high-speed chases, and the chase that led to these deaths simply would not meet those guidelines.

And the reason for those guidelines is that these chases lead so often to just such an outcome--and usually over pretty minor offenses (most often just a traffic offense).

I wish people--especially young people--would obey traffic laws. I find driving terrifying because so many people don't. But I don't like to see them die like this when they are violating such laws, even though their violations are foolish and dangerous.