America, if you take no other lesson away from the Olympics, take this

[DivinBreuvage]

It is not good for democracies to transmogrify themselves into aggressive bullies and pursue wealth and power at any price. Athens itself tried to pull it off in 431 BC and not only lost its democracy but ended up ruined, broke, depopulated, and subjugated by the very nations it had once sneered at.

Some pertinent reasons for the Athenian defeat:

• Athens' bullying alienated her allies and gave neutrals or waverers more cause to side with her enemies;
  
  
• Turmoil bred by the war led to the rise of demagogues who manipulated the populace and recklessly pursued the war for their own power and profit;
  
  
• Athens' chief enemy (the city-state of Sparta) ended up receiving substantial financial and political support from another old enemy of Athens, the Persian Empire (those Middle Eastern countries have always been a problem);
  
  
• The Athenian economy collapsed under the strain of paying for an interminable and ruinuously expensive war.
  

If you'd like to read more:

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/GREECE/PELOWARS.HTM (short summary)

http://www.laconia.org/gen_info_literature/Peloponnesian_war.htm (a bit more detailed)

[xray s]

1. "...subjugated by the very nations it had once sneered at"

You mean, we may end up being subjugated by France? Well, I could think of a lot worse fates! :)

[PretzelWarrior]

2. nope. China/KOrea. Wouldn't that be fun?

very likely, though. oh....and CHinese have long memories about events in their history.

[jayfish]

15. Memories Like Us...

liberating them (China) from Japanese occupation and pretty much allowing them to come to power. They should be fvcking grateful.

Jay

[DivinBreuvage]

4. We'd be LUCKY to get the French

(I'd also expect some personal benefits in such a case, being a member of la race supérieure, as I am)

More likely we'd be governed by former Neoconservatives, 100% Ay-merican, who have seen the light and come to realize that America's best interests really lie in doing the bidding of our Chinese Masters or the Oil Lords of the Middle East.

[DenverDem]

5. Bet on China.

They will kick our ass bad once busholini inc softens us up with their war profiteering and megalomaniacle obsession.

[Gildor Inglorion]

6. Not a chance....

the Chinese and Koreans are going to wind up being more "American" than the Americans. Our culture is just too seductive. :evilgrin:

[PretzelWarrior]

7. right. we bad. our 200+ year history may only be a shadow of time

and our 50+ years of ascendancy as a world power my be only an eye blink..but dammmit==we're better than the Greeks/Romans/Chinese/Assyrians/Persians. We know how to stay the course and keep it real.

[DivinBreuvage]

9. True, but in the same way the Franks, Burgundians, Vandals and Visigoths

Ended up worshipping the God and speaking mongrel derivatives of the language of the Empire they destroyed.

[DenverDem]

10. They may Americanize, but they will still own us.

Who do you think we are borrowing billions of dollars from to keep our unsustainable shit afloat?

They probably won't even have to fire a shot to take us down.

[leesa]

35. Right. Our "culture" of McDonalds and WalMart

[anarchy1999]

see www.moneyfiles.org

n/t

[TankLV]

8. Ummmmmmm! French Cuisine!

Say goodbye to low-carb low-fat meals!

Great taste here we come!

Can we start now?!

[Seabiscuit]

26. Your post is tempting me

to break out a bottle of Cotes du Rhone Rose. :)

[Seabiscuit]

19. Subjugated by France?

Well, we've already been subjugated by France in the Olympics - Laure Manaudou of France took the gold in the 400 meter freestyle swimming event, while Kaitlin Sandeno of the USA had to settle for Bronze after bein touted by NBC as a sure bet to win.

NBC has mud on its face as never before, if that's possible, for its dismal coverage of the Olympics in Athens this year. All hubris, all dismally wrong crystal ball gazing, all arrogant, all hyper-nationalistic sensationalistic "talking points" style worthless drivel in their commentaries, and no coverage of anything the U.S. isn't "destined" to medal in. The worst faux pas (hey, the French have even "subjugated" some of our language, n'est-ce-pas?)of all of course was all that hyperbolic BS about Michael Phelps becoming the next Marc Spitz, even supposedly coming home with eight (!) gold medals. If Phelps wasn't such a spoiled teenager I'd feel sorry for him for all the pressure NBC's put on him.

Whatever happened to the "Olympic spirit" in this country? This is an *international* event, not a *nationalist* event - where the entire world is supposed to set aside hostilities, politics, and nationalism during the competitions to come together for harmless sporting competitions. Only three countries in history have tried to inject politics into the Olympics: Hitler's Nazi Germany, the USSR during the "cold war", and the USA during the "cold war" and, unforgivably, ever since.

[Mike Daniels]

24. Re: Nationalistic coverage

Do you really think coverage is all that more different in other countries?

People watch to see their team do well. I seriously doubt that the majority of coverage in other countries is tuning into events that their teams aren't directly participating in or predicted to medal in either. Hell, the gymnastic competitions have be so sparsely attended because it isn't a major sport of interest in Greece. Wouldn't that indicate that the Greeks are being nationalistic and against the "spirt" of the games that your constantly say has been spoiled by NBC's jingoistic covage.

The proportion of sports fans that are "pure" in that they'll watch any old game or competition just for the beauty of the sport are a relative minority I'm sure. The majority only watch sports only when it's an "event" (Super Bowl, etc) or because they have some sort of vested interest in the outcome.

The rest of the world is not as pure as you seem to make it out to be.

[Seabiscuit]

25. Nationalism at the Olympics

Having lived in other countries during both winter and summer Olympics, and seeing their coverage, the answer to your first question is an unequivocal YES. And YES, they do offer far more coverage of events their countries aren't predicted to medal in, or who have already medaled in. Many of these countries very rarely or almost never receive medals yet their coverage of the Olympics is far more balanced. Take Peru, for example. It's only received about 2 medals in the history of the Olympics. Sure, their citizens cheer their countrymen on (primarily in soccer and shooting two sports they sometimes qualify in), but they're also interested in the Olympics as a whole, and follow it as a whole. Having married into a Peruvian family, those in the family who have become U.S. citizens are always complaining about how the American media only covers America's athletes in the Olympics (a slight exxageration, but they deservedly feel "slighted").

You wrote: "The proportion of sports fans that are "pure" in that they'll watch any old game or competition just for the beauty of the sport are a relative minority I'm sure. The majority only watch sports only when it's an "event" (Super Bowl, etc) or because they have some sort of vested interest in the outcome."

Your insertion of the Super Bowl into this disucussion is very telling: insert "American sports fans" for "sports fans" and you have it right. The whole point of the Olympic spirit, lost on most Americans, is exactly "the beauty of the sport", and *not* "some sort of vested interest in the outcome."

You don't appear to be very well-traveled if you can write that last one-sentence paragraph of yours. Have you ever even been to another country, besides, perhaps, Mexico or Canada?

[Gloria]

3. kick....

History is not paid attention to these days....too bad.

[MrChupon]

11. Very pertinant information but...

I fail to see the relevance to the Olympic games.

[K-W]

20. They are in greece. EOM

[starroute]

12. The fate of Athens has haunted me for 45 years

I first read about it in Mary Renault's "The Last of the Wine," long about the end of the Eisenhower administration, when the US was first beginning to alienate its allies through arrogance and bullying. The message that came through to me, then and ever since, was, "This could be us. Perhaps it will be us. And if we come to that pass, who will speak in our favor?"

When Athens was riding high, it was so sure of its preeminence among the Greek city-states that its high-handedness with its friends and ruthlessness towards its enemies seemed of no account. It was only when things went bad that the Athenians were overcome by a sudden realization of what they had done. But by then it was too late.

Here's Xenophon:

The News of the Battle of Aegospotami Reaches Athens

It was night when the "Paralus" reached Athens with her evil tidings, on receipt of which a bitter wail of woe broke forth. From Piraeus, following the line of the long walls up to the heart of the city, it swept and swelled, as each man to his neighbour passed on the news. On that night no man slept. There was mourning and sorrow for those that were lost, but the lamentation for the dead was merged in even deeper sorrow for themselves, as they pictured the evils they were about to suffer, the like of which they themselves had inflicted upon the men of Melos, who were colonists of the Lacedaemonians, when they mastered them by siege. Or on the men of Histiaea; on Scione and Torone; on the Aeginetans, and many another Hellene city.

[DivinBreuvage]

21. That's a chilling excerpt, Starroute

I started Xenophon last summer but the book was so disheartening that I ended up putting it down before I'd gotten very far. Normally such things don't bother me, and I see parallels in history all the time, but Xenophon seriously depressed me. Maybe I was just in a bad place then, I don't know.

You've piqued my interest in Mary Renault (nice French name). I'd never heard of her, but after reading your post I went to Amazon. The readers who reviewed her rate her extremely highly, so I suppose I need to pony up some $$$ to check out The Last of the Wine.

I don't think we'll ever be occupied by foreign troops -- the country's just too big -- but I definitely think it's possible for us to wake up one morning to find that the bright shining bubble has collapsed, and under such circumstances I know there are plenty of Americans who will willingly dance to the tune of foreign governments that can reward them with wealth and power. And I suspect that the answer to your question is, that no one will speak in our favor. If we have any friends left by that time they'll keep out of it for their own good; but I suspect most of the weaker nations will gloat over our downfall while the powerfull ones scramble to seize the spoils.

[anarchy1999]

31. You are kidding yourself if you think we can never be occupied.

Hide and watch.

[DivinBreuvage]

34. Who do you think can do it?

It seems to me that it would have to be an Iraq-style situation, with the occupiers holing up in fortified bases but unable to control the roads and rural areas.... unless Americans are more conditioned to submit to authority than the Iraqis are (ingrained submission to authority, as I have heard, being one of the reasons the Allied occupations of Germany and Japan went as smoothly as they did).

[anarchy1999]

36. See China and Mexico allied with South America.

n/t

Coming soon to a theater near you.

[tedzbear]

13. It's not OK to cheat and use steroids.

:kick:

[WilliamPitt]

14. I'm stealing this

Great stuff. Thanks.

[DivinBreuvage]

22. Wow, thank you, Will... I'm eager to see how this is shaped

by your eloquent hands.

[anarchy1999]

38. Go Will!

n/t and thanks once again for all that you do.

[Cronus Protagonist]

16. These are sensitive times, no doubt about it

Cheney Fucks Himself

http://bushspeaks.com/home.asp?did=176

[jayfish]

17. That's The First Time...

I have ever laughed out loud at a DU post. Nice.

Jay

[Cronus Protagonist]

18. Thanks!

God knows, I try.... :)

[Bridget Burke]

23. A libation to Nemesis.

On February 23, 2003, John Brady Kiesling, a Foreign Service officer at the U.S. embassy in Athens ended his twenty years of government service with a scathing letter to Colin Powell. He resigned over the impending invasion of Iraq.

www.govexec.com/features/0503/0503s2.htm

Kiesling left Athens on a somber note. On his last day, he invited his embassy colleagues to a farewell gathering at the Temple of Nemesis, the goddess of retribution and divine justice. According to Greek mythology, Nemesis, whose name means righteous anger, punishes mortals who transgress divine limits. Joined by about 30 colleagues, Kiesling poured a glass of wine onto the ground as an offering, and then he said a prayer. He asked for salvation for the United States, from its "hubris" and "arrogance."

The libation echoed a passage from Kiesling's resignation letter. "Why does our president condone the swaggering and contemptuous approach to our friends and allies this administration is fostering, including among its most senior officials. Has 'oderint dum metuant' really become our motto?"

The phrase is attributed to Lucuis Accius, a Roman poet, and is thought to have been a favorite saying of the notorious Roman emperor Caligula, who ordered that statues of himself be placed in his enemies' temples. The phrase translates to: "Let them hate, so long as they fear."

[DivinBreuvage]

27. Points to a fundamental truth that powerful nations have ignored

down through the ages. Whether you call it Hubris-Nemesis, Karma, Pride Goeth Before the Fall or whatever, there comes a time when history catches up to you and even the most swaggering six-shootin' cowpoke has to offer up an accounting.

Great info, Bridget, thanks for posting this.

[TheGreatestShow]

28. Thanks

Thanks for the post I must show this to all my conservative friends

[DivinBreuvage]

29. Great, here comes the hate mail.

Listen well, you ignorant poltroons -- History is a cruel machine to the enemies of justice and God's law. It took you down when you were Pharisees, it took you down when you were Tories, it took you down when you were Southern slaveholders, it took you down when you were German fascists, and now it's coming for you again. The Bible itself spells out the path of doom for you and everything you stand for.

[Hubert Flottz]

32. Very Well Done!

You smite his shite! * LMAO!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

30. This is old news. Many economies collapsed under the strain of

interminable and ruinuously expensive wars: Rome, Spain, the British Empire- the latter 2 were not destroyed but simply lost their status as world dominant powers- Britain's of course beginning with the loss of the American colonies.
Rome did the gradual fade over many centuries.

[DivinBreuvage]

33. Yes, but none of the examples you mentioned

were brought about by the direct collusion of the populace in the same way the Athenian disaster was, and that's a critical difference. Nor do your examples allow you to do a neat tie-in with the topical subject of the 2004 Summer Olympics. :)

[DU GrovelBot]

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[skygazer]

39. I've just begun a book

called "The Sorrows of Empire". The premise seems to be that our country has evolved into a global military empire and that our civil government is run by military interests - the danger being that we will eventually see the same fate as former military empires such as Athens and Rome. As I said, I've only begun it but it looks to be interesting.